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Windows of Opportunnity thoughts?
What are peoples current opinion on Windows of Opportunnity? I think it's high usage is a sign it's not healthy right now for the game, there are a lot of long wall hold W windows, you switch target to go pressure elsewhere but the next person has it too.
Run blindness would be an option but its not for all killers, we only have third seal now that ultimate weapon is gone.
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between blindness add ons and perks, run one of them
anytime survivors nag about a killer perk, they're told to use ____ perk to counter
when killers nag, they demand a nerf because why should they opt to use a perk in the same scenario
you're not getting looped cause of woo, you were already struggling at chase. Bad survivors will gain a few seconds and good survivors will just not blindly run into a dead zone and loop you nonetheless
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Good for killers, bad for survivors.
Killers: Makes every survivor somewhat effective at looping half sensibly, forcing you to account for their lack of bad plays by having to git gud yourself and actually outplay them.
Survivors: Promotes lazy play styles, ensures you never even try to loop suboptimal tiles, actively hinders your ability to learn maps/spawns, and allows you to switch your brain off instead of try to get better at the game. Should never be ran unless you're at the highest levels and only using it to determine used resources, and at that point, there are probably better perks you can take.
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Use the Search Bar. Window of Opportunity been talked to death.
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Dracula has 2 choices, ultimate weapon or third seal both are incredibly situational, it's a perk which highlights the bad map design atm, and even the newer map spawns with the longer walls are awful.
There are no options for some killers.2 -
I don't think it's overpowered, but it is kind of "autopilot mode" in a perk, and I'm kind of averse to that as a concept.
There aren't really all that many reliable sources of Blindness.
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use mindbreaker and now you've countered sprint perks and woo
if we're talking about those new long walls w/ unsafe pallets then yeah those suck and not even woo is helping you there. Well, besides letting you know to not run to that bad tile I guess
but seriously, woo is more of a hindrance to a team and player than anything. Bad teammates will W and pre drop everything while putting their team at a disadvantage later. Occasionally a good player uses it but chances are this guy already knows his tiles and you're just being denied a hit in a dead zone because he won't go there
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Mindbreaker's Blindness only lasts for 5 seconds off of a gen, it doesn't do anything in a chase.
I also don't want it to be extended because why did they give that perk Blindness my poor Fogwise value5 -
Yeah this is exactly it, I don't want a perk which makes it impossible to use, more on to pressure in chase:
Dirty tricks: Sloppy butcher but it applies blindness instead as an idea, pressuring people in chase mainly0 -
I don't really think it needs nerf, but recently I forced myself to stop using it.
WoO and Lithe will let even worst survivor have good chase. Vault window and follow yellow color...
Issue is you will never really improve your looping skill, because you don't need to.
I kinda enjoy that I am forced to get maximum value out of every loop, because I don't know if zone next to me is safe or not... It makes survivor for me way more entertaining.
It was hilarious with Ultimate Weapon to watch survivors run like headless chicken when they lost WoO. Sadly there is not really good blindness perk for chase now.
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This is what I'm saying I don't use it on Survivor side, but as soon as I switch to killer at least 3-4 every game, it's so annoying, how are you to improve against Holding W as some killers with no mobility, it wastes so much time and takes 0 effort. "Skill issue" or not, it's harmful to casual dbd play I feel
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Well, it's needed for casual DBD.
Most players are simply terrible. WoO is perfect training wheels, issue is many survivors will never start to walk themselves...
I would fix it by simply creating valid perk to counter it. Ultimate Weapon was good for it, but they nuked it as they often do with perks. It was very simple to fix, but it's useless now.
Issue is Blindness not really good alone, so you need secondary effect. Another issue is survivors with WoO, or other info perks hate to lose those effects (reality check).
Doesn't matter what some say, BHVR did, does and will create nerfs where only reason is not fun for players.
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The fact that it was meant as a "training wheels" perk and yet has some of its highest usage in high elos should be telling.
All it needs is an activation / deactivation condition. Something like activating for 10/20/30 seconds when a chase begins, then going on cooldown for 60 seconds.
Or it deactivates for 30/25/20 seconds after using a pallet or vaulting a window.
Just something to make it less of a "turn off your brain" perk.
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Wasn't there a massive thread on WoO recently? Not sure how you missed it. It was plastered on the front page for weeks.
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I mean I personally know where the palettes are on the maps because I'm playing a lot of killer, the only thing I use WoO for is to look if the palettes are still there. Of course it somewhat helps on planing your route, but it won't make you suddenly a god at looping, people that just run to the best loops and nothing else are probably wasting them quick, so it's not an issue for the most part I think.
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It's not really the pallets I care about its those long walls with the windows on the newer variations of maps
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WoO is not an overpowered perk, is high usage is because of SoloQ
You can’t guess which pallet has been use and Windows helps you with that. Stop asking to nerfs perks that make SoloQ barely playable
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I don't really see how windows helps there, they are really easy to spot and it's really not hard to know where the windows are? Besides that the windows aren't even too strong for the most part.
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Overused.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's OP. But I do think anyone using it is doing themselves a disservice. If you're good at loops, have the spawn knowledge down and have a good eye, you can get the same value and still have another perk instead.
Also, a lot of blindness addons/perks have too many restrictions to counter it reliably for those who do have trouble facing it. The best one would be Hex: Third Seal but is a hex, so, you know…
That said, if survivors feel like they need it, good for them.
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I think the perk is fine. It doesn't actually buff survivors in any way, and the better the player is the less they need the perk. It can help newer players who don't know maps fine resources, and it can help solo players know where to run because they don't know what their teammates dropped. If someone is simply running to the bright color and holding W then you can counter that by not mindgaming and you'll catch up quickly even as a basic M1 killer.
It is very commonly run but I think that's okay. If you as killer are trying to mainly chase someone without awareness of where loops are then I would encourage a shift in that thinking.2 -
I think perk variety must be in a good spot if survivors are flocking to WoO.
WoO used to be worse, but a few other perks uses to be borderline must run. I don't feel that sort of pressure now, so yea don't mind me if I am willing to sacrifice a perk slot JUST to see what my solo team does.
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I think it is fine, but I would also not say no to a small nerf to its range or nerfing it by buffing blindness, which I would prefer.
It is a perk that many people need to play the game well and to have fun without spending a living in the game. Windows mainly helps to not having to memorize all maps and to identify the few pallets that maps have so you do not always run to a deadzone.
If behavior really wants survivors to use other perks, they should try to give us new viable perks, instead of killing perks like they did some time ago commonly.
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Overused, easily countered, and a crutch perk for weak loopers. Shouldn't be this common as all it does is boost Survivors whose skills are not quite there yet. Abused by people who know the game well to just autopilot loop to loop without having to think. Limits skill progression.
Badly, badly needs a change to be less autopilot while still being a good tool for baby Survivors to learn from.
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I wish the developers would give WoO a rather hard nerf (e.g. after vaulting over a pallet or window the perk gets deactivated for the next 50/40/30sec and reduce the range to 16/20/24meters) and then give the aurareading to other perks. For example: Poised could get this effect and be like "Whenever a generator gets completed, for the next 20/30/40sec you see the aura of pallets and windows". Appraisal "when ever you open a chest, you see the aura of windows and pallets as long as you're healthy". Deadline "Whenever you're injured, you see the aura of pallets and windows". I have similar opinion about Distortion that the developers should give these popular clutch-perks a rather hard nerf and then split the effect on other perks. This would be a healthy way to create more perk variety and make rather weak perks better.
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Extremely good perk and deserves a nerf.
People will tell you "its only good for newbies" because you are supposed to know how the pallet spawn works. But there are 2 things:
- Even if there is a pallet spawn point, the pallet maybe didnt spawn there, and if you are on a chase without WoO you can maybe go there thinking there is a pallet but there is none because it was not on that side of the loop.
- People almost never talks on how good it is for knowing when your teammates drop a pallet and its destroyed. People are like "just with game knowledge and seeing where they are looping you can guess the pallets that have been thrown". Like, if you are that good at gathering info, im pretty sure you didnt have any problem with old eruption, as you were 100% aware of the killer situation and when he was going to hit the survivor so you could always stop doing the gen and not being "erupted", 100%.
Perk is near the "overpowered" state and should be nerfed.
Post edited by albertoplus on5 -
Windows of Opportunity should really be made basekit. It helps lower the difference between Swf and solo-que, and just being a neet and having thousands of hours to memorize every possible map permutation does not equal skill. Why can Killers see aura of generators basekit but Survivors need a perk to see windows and pallets, which are essentially the ONLY resource survivors have to escape the Killer in chase?
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Alberto is right about both of his points, but you can also just use your eyes to see pallets half the time. With eruption you didn't know exactly when the chase would end though so it's a pretty unequal comparison imo.
I don't know if I'd want windows basekit, or if it was made basekit I'd like a way to turn it off or reduce how vibrant it is or something. Too much stuff on my screen when I rarely use it LOL1 -
These are totally non-related things tho. Survivors job is to find and repair generators, while killers job is to patrol them and kill the survivors, thats why killers see the generators aura, they are not supposed to "search" for them like the survivors.
Thats like if i say "why survivors jump over windows at a much faster speed than the killer but killer needs perks to vault at almost the same speed! Not fair, give killers the default survivor vaulting speed!!".
You are not supposed to see the "best looping path" by free.
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WoO is popular because it's part of core gameplay as survivor that and doing gens.
Being a good survivor means learning tiles and how to run them correctly.
The perk mostly benefits low level players. High level players know tile spawns and scout used resources.
If you think WoO is ruining your games, wait till you go against survivors that all have the same perks that punish killer snowball tactics, ie ds, unbreakable. They don't waste perk slots..
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This is another reason I don't use it and never have. I don't like all the visual clutter, it actually makes me Loop WORSE. I also just… don't need it? There's enough environmental cues I don't need it nor does anyone else really. Use your eyes, people.
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The problem, Paternal, isn't that just new players at low MMR are using WoO. They can't truly use it effectively.
The problem is that experienced players use it as free mapwide info with no consequence or drawback to always know exactly where certain resources are at any given time, and that's just too much information for a perk meant only for new Survivors to learn tiles. It's too free, with too much info. It doesn't improve looping, it makes looping trivial and creates an autopilot scenario. Plus it can trick people into learning bad habits, as Lights Out and Chaos Shuffle showed us - look how many people started to fumble and falter at loops without their WoO.
At some point you need to know loops yourself and how to handle a tile. WoO can actively hinder that. That's the issue with the perk. As you said being a good Surv means running tiles well. Using WoO tricks you into "run yellow to yellow and predrop" gameplay that half the Killer cast can turn into a weakness, and the other half can just mindgame you over all while you destroy resources for your team. It looks like a good pick, but it's a detriment to any team against a Killer with half a brain. And it's also just… the most boring form of chase imaginable. Try learning mindgames and checkspots, perhaps instead of WoO?2 -
By that logic, can we remove bloodlust? As it serves the same purpose and was a bandaid to infinites. Now that maps are smaller, brighter and scratchmarks have been made more visible, I see no need in the mechanic.
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As usual you completely ignored and avoided the core of my point.
Bloodlust is not equivalent. It's a catchup mechanic for Killers with no chase power so chases do not go on for an eternity. It 100% is still needed as long as maps like GoJ exist.
The only Killers Bloodlust should be removed from, and even that's a bad idea, is Killers that really do not need to mindgame around tiles played correctly.
Please, play more Killer and play enough Killer before you reach these conclusions. Not loop-cancelling or strong ones, either. Play enough basic M1 Killer before you make these biased claims.
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I'm struggling to understand your argument for WoO being an autopilot perk then? You can play as killer, not mindgame, get bloodlust and get the down without a braincell needed.
Your talking from a Ghostface pov and I Bubba. Our experiences will be vastly different.
But if we are talking about sides having braindead crutches, let's remember the others.
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tl;dr because you never seem to fully read my posts; if you did you would understand my point clearly:
- Bloodlust is a catchup mechanic that helps some Killers have QoL regardless of the player's skill, and is not a crutch as a result. In fact it can be used tactically - remember, Survivors are intended to eventually be downed.
- WoO is a perk you use if you're weak at map knowledge that can be used to outsized effects on experienced players it's not meant to do anything for, and does not even help you learn how to mindgame well, thus it can be a crutch for players who cannot loop without it.
- Even some good Killers sometimes need Bloodlust to catch good Survivors. No good Survivor NEEDS WoO to know how to loop, they use it for information - too much information for free, which isn't the perk's intent.
- Two things can be true at the same time. Water can be both wet and solid. A pet can be both friendly to some and standoffish to others. WoO can be both a crutch for weak players while also a much stronger than intended perk in the right hands.
Long version:
Bloodlust is only braindead if you suboptimally chase someone, and if you do that three gens pop in one chase. If you are doing this you are committing, and if you're committing, you are desperate. Pure and simple as. Nobody who plays seriously as Killer is ever going to force Bloodlust III because it's not optimal or good to commit to a chase that long.Of course our views differ based on Killer main. Bubba doesn't need Bloodlust, he has a chainsaw sweep. But most other Killers just do not have this, or a way around Bloodlust; they may have to sometimes Bloodlust. Therefore, you cannot call it a crutch, because it's necessary for those Killers. Meanwhile, WoO is a perk you put on because you don't know how to loop well yet. The definition of a crutch - you need it to play better. No Killer really needs Bloodlust to play better, they need it to prevent infinites if they play a Killer that lacks range or mobility. By definition a catchup mechanic, not a crutch.
How many other Killers do you play, BTW? I play nine, all of which need Bloodlust in some way except for arguably Pinhead, Nemesis and Demogorgon. I would like to know for context, as this would explain a lot of things about some of your other opinions of Killer side. If you always play Killers that don't care about pallets, mindgames, or can easily end chase fast, of course you might think Killers are overpowered in chase as a whole.
The difference here is, I think about half of all Killers are hard to chase against, while some are balanced to chase against. You seem to believe that all Killers are of equal strength and thus all OP in chase.
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I then understood you from the start. I'd call DS a crutch perk as it gives you a second chance to waste time. But that doesn't mean tm will do anything with that time. Same goes for Bloodlust, u can get it and get the down succesfully while no gens pop cause of potatoes.
WoO is a crutch cause your not paying attention and planning your movements so u need yellow boxes everywhere.
For my definition crutch perk/mechanic = catchup mechanic/perk. I've played this game b4 all these qol mechanics were implemented and did fine and continue to do so.
Tbh I'd be happy if they removed WoO entirely as it's just giving bad survivors a reason to play and it doesn't actually help against good Killers as they know how to mindgame.
I played Demo, Ghostface, Billy, Nurse, Trapper mostly b4 Bubba arrived and some others that feel good on controller. Yes, back then I needed Bloodlust no doubt.
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I think the popularity of WoO is indicative of a couple things. 1. The RNG that is so heavily baked into the game is something players consider a chore to try to deal with, especially in terms of pallets and vaults which are so essential to not going immediately down in a chase. (I'm not making a statement about RNG, just about players' feelings towards dealing with RNG. They use a perk that puts distracting bright yellow rectangles all over their screen rather than try to guess mid-chase if the pallet spawned at this location or that location.) 2. Teammates' skills are inconsistent and unreliable, and you can't be sure if they utilized their resources properly or if they threw down every pallet without even glancing behind them. WoO will help you not run into an area that had pallets 60 seconds ago but is now a dead zone.
WoO helps deal with things that make the solo survivor experience painful. I have no comment on whether or not it's too strong. I know it can be annoying as killer on a pallet-heavy map when the survivor easily runs from one loop to another and there are enough pallets that survivors could get 10 gens done and still have resources left, but it's even worse for survivors when you feel completely hopeless in a chase because there are no resources where you expected resources to be: you don't get any chance for skill expression, you just go down. Chase is basically the one time a survivor isn't stuck in place (doing gens, cleansing bones, healing a teammate, on a hook, slugged, on an exit gate), so when the chase is miserably short what was even the point of going through all the other tedium.
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perhaps this is why there is an uptick in its usage. A bunch of maps got reworked people are using it to learn the new structures maybe.
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I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and say this is why. Guess it's time to run Hysteria more as Killer if it becomes popular enough again.
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"Just memorize the map tiles."
This is why I can't get my friends not to hate this game
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Yes of course, Killers need every advantage while Survivors get none. It's also hilarious people are saying that Woo is only used by bad survivors, have you seen some of the streamers who use it? Just because you see the pallets and windows doesn't mean you can run it in an effective way. This insistence that "Survivors need to play thousands and thousands of hours to memorize the ever increasing maps (and also the ones that Bhvr keeps ruining) or they are bad, but yet of course Killers are entitled to see the aura of all generators, like there's not even any question about it" is asinine. Survivor is so much harder to play than Killer now; the balance needs to be going in the other direction, not nerfing one of the perks that actually makes Solo que playable a lot of the time. I literally stopped playing Killer because it is so easy now. Make woo basekit but give the option to turn it on or not. I know Killer mains will have an apocalyptic meltdown but they can't be taken seriously when they claim the game is Survivor sided while the target kill rate is 60% and even at the highest MMR over 50.
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Just make it basekit while in chase already. 75% of survivors need it to last longer than 10 seconds in chase and truly new players (who need it the most btw) don't have access to it immediately. It's not immersion breaking either, killers already see generators all game. Make windows do something else so everyone can stop complaining about it.
We'd get a better solo que experience which also helps bridge the gap between new and veteran players. Killers already play against 3 of them a game so it's a win all around.
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I already raised this topic, that this perk needs to be nerfed, and they told me the main survivors, "this is a weak perk". Why did you start writing posts here, the perk is weak, that’s why all survivals use it
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got 700h and i still go down in chase in 10 seconds. windows barely helps me.
yet i see ppl cry about it lol
id probs quit the game if the perk was ruined because even now with chaos shuffle it's pretty obvious games unplayable without it.
it's way too many map variations and diferent maps…. plus all the killers with anti loops.
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I think maybe a VERY SHORT cooldown could be good for the health of the game so it's not just autopilot looping.
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