Another survivor perk nerfed to the ground. Thanks killer mains!
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Ah there's your problem. Sure you choose to handi cap yourself by not tunneling and slugging. It's not a "delusion" when there was legit nothing someone could do better in the current position. That someone COULD have chose to play a better killer before hand or choose better perks.
Also you claim yourself as not a competent killer but then say slugging, camping and tunneling is a crutch to natural skill level? Would not taking the smartest play to win the game NOT be considered skilled? Because you can still learn to chase by tunneling and taking the option to spread hooks really isn't so much a "show of skill" more of survivors playing badly. And matter of fact is… a lot of tunneling and camping is a direct result of what survivors do. there is those games where the killer player REALLY want to just do it for the hell of it but I doubt its that often.How would you know that when you claim yourself you aren't competent enough at killer? Even in 2v8 if you chose wraith and trapper you're BEGGING for games to be 5 minutes because you get basically 0 gen pressure other than wraith which is just out classed by blight in every way.
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Ah there's your problem. Sure you choose to handi cap yourself by not tunneling and slugging. It's not a "delusion" when there was legit nothing someone could do better in the current position.
I can guarantee you that not a single one of you lot that all claim that these tactics are required to win have ever played a flawless game in your lives.
Also you claim yourself as not a competent killer but then say slugging, camping and tunneling is a crutch to natural skill level? Would not taking the smartest play to win the game NOT be considered skilled?
Cutting corners isn't an indication of 'skill'.
Who's more skilled: The killer that gets 8 hooks and 0 kills, or the killer that gets 3 hooks and 1 kill?
How would you know that when you claim yourself you aren't competent enough at killer? Even in 2v8 if you chose wraith and trapper you're BEGGING for games to be 5 minutes because you get basically 0 gen pressure other than wraith which is just out classed by blight in every way.
Because I've still won matches without using any of those tactics. And if I can do it, you can, too.
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People say survivor complaints got her nerfed but like if that’s true why hasn’t it removed camping or tunneling? Survivors complain about those things more than anything else and yet here we are.
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Because the core issue is that the game is balanced around efficiency, a lot of killers are outdated, there’s a plethora of perks and builds that counter every killer “community approved” strategies and thousands of hours have proven what’s the best path to win. Biggest survivor enemy is his own teammate and their performance as a group, not killers. Everything We complain about slug and tunnel etc, comes from experience and the state of a match when is played at a decent level.
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If the killer got 8 hooks and 0 kills both were bad or the killer was playing way too nice if they wanted to win and the killer who got a single kill is just average DBD in a match where everyone knows what they're doing.
You call it cutting corners but in reality making the game easier for yourself believe it or not is an indication of skill.
And you guaranteed always play against solo q or some of the worst survivor teams if you can still "win" this debate is NOT going in your favor when comp dbd is good for one thing: showing the state and reality of the game. Survivors get MASSIVE handicaps in comp and they still can consistently 2-3 out against killers which rarely ever get handicaps. Except its not like these examples are restricted to comp, dbd survivor is just a WAY easier experience to get into and do well in than killer. Thats just the natural order of 2 teams having different objectives.3 -
And here we have 2 people straying from the original point of the thread to get it closed.
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It would make the game much more interesting to have decent perks that are only strong when paired with certain other perks than just having 1 OP perk.
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Perk wasn't nerfed to the ground as post claims. There the gist of it is done.
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If the killer got 8 hooks and 0 kills both were bad or the killer was playing way too nice if they wanted to win and the killer who got a single kill is just average DBD in a match where everyone knows what they're doing.
You're missing the point.
Choosing the path of least resistance isn't 'skill'. It's not some tactical decision that needs to be weighed against its alternatives. It's like asking someone if changing the difficulty setting to 'easy' is a skilled play, since it makes you more likely to win.
No, choosing to tunnel is not 'skilled'. The execution of the methods chosen is where the skill resides.
You call it cutting corners but in reality making the game easier for yourself believe it or not is an indication of skill.
No, it isn't. Not by definition, anyway.
And you guaranteed always play against solo q or some of the worst survivor teams if you can still "win" this debate is NOT going in your favor when comp dbd is good for one thing: showing the state and reality of the game. Survivors get MASSIVE handicaps in comp and they still can consistently 2-3 out against killers which rarely ever get handicaps.
They also ran a tournament with no holds barred once and it was still a 60% kill rate.
Besides, it is a catastrophically terrible idea to sacrifice the entire game on account of .5% of the playerbase's experience. You can't point to comp gameplay because you don't play comp. No one here plays comp. What you and I play are completely different from comp play.
What's much more comparable is Hens and four of his friends playing 113 total matches without camping, tunnelling, slugging AND using killer powers and scoring a 3K+ in 104 of them.
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Once again different sides different objects. Survivor is overall easier than killer and can get way more done than killer so to keep up you need to employ different tactics which is skillful.
Thats why I said its not restricted to comp. Comp is the most extreme example but it doesnt have to be extreme to happen in normal games. I've had solo q games where everyone just… did the objective and we 3 outted because the killer didnt decide to camp or tunnel until end game. Was the killer good in chase? Yes he was but he was also running pig which CANT keep up with people doing the objective. So being good in chase simply isn't good enough to win games against good survivors. Which is crazy because being good at the game should be the average but the average of dbd is bad.
Also I would like to see those tournaments that had no rules. I can already tell it was ONLY nurse and blight and possibly billy depending on how recent it was.2 -
This is literally 'I won a match as survivor, that's OP, nerf it now'.
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Nope. It just how dbd is at its core when both sides are good and mid to low tier being used.
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It (tunnelling, camping) is a crutch to natural skill level and I do win most of my Killer games in public matches without tunnelling or camping. The MMR system is literally designed so that, over the long run, a Killer, competent or otherwise, will get a 60% or higher kill rate.
The only exceptions are if you just hit the soft cap but stay at the soft cap (so you're facing people who have significantly higher MMRs than you on a regular basis) or if you crutched so hard on tunnelling and camping those are the only developed skills you have. Otherwise, it is not necessary in the slightest to tunnel and camp to win the majority of your games in public matches.
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Tunneling and camping are mainly a response to how survivors played out the game. If survivors sprint burst to a main building every time I chase them where they get to use a god vault 3 times then yes I am going to make that time back up. If survivors do their objective and are good reasonably 2 and a half gens should be done by the first chase is done against most killers. That's already dangerous territory to keep 4 survivors alive so you NEED pressure. And let me tell you something going for chases on people who don't have hook states aint it unless they're in a REALLY bad position and depending on the perks you brought.
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In public matches I not only win but quite often keep survivors alive for longer than optimal to maximize pips and BP at the end. I do exactly what you're saying is dangerous and still win the majority of my public matches. This is with Killers I've played regularly for years so it's not a case of MMR settling; it's a case of how MMR is designed. I spread hooks intentionally and still win the majority of my games with a very early survivor death being the fifth hook but more typically the first death occurring at 7 to 8 hooks.
I'm not discussing comp or anything like that but, with the actual real life circumstances of public matches over the long term tunnelling and camping isn't necessary unless either of the two circumstances I already mentioned is in play. It's overkill most of the time.
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it is, decisive strike can be strong because if the killer chooses to tunnel, the extra life is equal survivor having 4 hook-states because they need to be downed a 4th time in addition to 3 times required to die. with shoulder of burden, you can stack this up to 7 hook-states where decisive strike is artificially 1 hook-state. Killer is build around optimizing game efficiency and taking risk where necessary and avoiding poor risk that offer low pay off.
killers need massive base-kit buffs to level of 2vs8 killers to be going around 12 hooking every single game. I don't see BVHR buffing Wraith in 1vs4 to the level of 2vs8. There is too much push-back whenever a killer gets significantly more powerful especially killer that they dislike. these tactics are balanced by current power-level that killer are at.
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If you end up in those situations and still win then the survivors were either also messing around or just bad. Simple as that. I could also play bad survivors and win by spreading hooks because the survivors are bad. Sure tunneling and camping against those survivors would be overkill but then theres the survivors that try to escape which is required as most killers.
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It's a regular pattern over hundreds of games. The bottom line is that's what regular matches give as opponents. The majority of matches are not against 4 person SWFs trying to dethrone Team Eternal; they're against solos or at most 2 person SWFs and even 4 person SWFs overall die more than they escape.
There's no need to tunnel and camp in public matches unless the two circumstances I stated above are met. The game is literally designed so that Killers win more often than they lose at every level. Sure in a minority of games it might be necessary but only in those few specific examples. Most of the time it's overkill.
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I can guarantee you that if I go into matches doing that I will only win because the other teams skill is astronomically low.
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Or perhaps you're either at the soft cap but not significantly above it or you've tunnelled and camped enough you're stuck at a level where you have to. Either of those situations suck but the current game is designed so that you don't have to tunnel or camp to win the majority of matches. A specific individual meeting either of those criteria doesn't change that it's still not necessary to tunnel or camp in most public matches.
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Scene Partner is insane. And that perk got buffed.
It's so good that killers refuse to chase Scene Partner players. Now that Shoulder the Burden is here, I can leverage my invincibility
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StB should go back to 20 seconds. Clean Break should go down to 40.
It really feels like they're balancing these perks around Vigil or something which is annoying (E: actually idek if Clean Break works with Vigil anyway). Just rework Vigil if that's the case.
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No this is just how DBD has always been. Even before MMR and the horrid rank matchmaking system which was somehow better.
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But it's not necessary. It hasn't been for a long while. If so, then explain why I win the vast majority of my games without tunnelling and camping? What's more likely? That if it is actually necessary it's due to the two niche situations I explained above (of which one is self-inflicted) and it's not necessary to camp and tunnel in public matches or that I'm on a magic server where, after thousands of games since 2021, my MMR hasn't settled yet?
Considering the devs stated intention is that Killers win more than they lose in public matches which explanation sounds more reasonable?
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You win a vast majority of your games because survivors end up throwing or are bad in some way? If you can post gameplay I can probably pin point exact moments what survivors should have done.
Also it's no joke that bhvr balances around the average of the game which the average of the game is like toddler level.1 -
It's one singular match, as told by a person who really wants survivors to be OP.
killers need massive base-kit buffs to level of 2vs8 killers to be going around 12 hooking every single game.
Killers were 12-hooking more before 6.1, before they were buffed. The real issue is that anti-tunnel got kneecapped in that patch, every forum killer crutched their way up, high above their MMR, and now they're stuck clinging to their broken OP toys while convincing themselves they have a good grasp on game balance.
Killers are winning the majority of their matches, massive killer winstreaks, killers winning without powers or any of the mentioned tactics, nah. 2v8 is what we're using to come up with a balancing standard now!
Every buff killers get just makes killer players worse, and in turn makes them mandate more buffs.
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You have to pick a position and stick to it. You've argued two points by now
- Survivors are so bad that they're throwing games and that's why hooks can be spread ; and
- Survivors are so good and efficient that Killers have to tunnel and camp.
I stated that in the majority of public matches I win most games without tunnelling and camping and, that in public matches, there are only two niche situations that someone could feasibly argue it's necessary (and one is self-inflicted). I've also stated that over thousands of matches since 2021 my MMR would have settled.
Am I on a magical server where, after thousands of games, I only get survivors that throw matches or is that if you feel tunnelling and camping is necessary it's more likely that you're either at the soft cap but not substantially above it and are paired against Survivors with much higher MMR than you or you've tunnelled and camped so much you're at an MMR where you can't compete without it since tunnelling and camping is a crutch but not necessary?
Also, are Survivors so bad they're always throwing matches or so good it's necessary to tunnel and camp? They're not compatible arguments so you'll have to pick one.
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Killers were 12-hooking more before 6.1, before they were buffed.
i was not able to 12 hook before 6.1 and i am still not able to 12 hook after 6.1. 6.1 was placebo patch that did very little for killer beyond marginally improving early game of killer.
The real issue is that anti-tunnel got kneecapped in that patch, every forum killer crutched their way up, high above their MMR
More like survivor that crutches imbalanced chase perks stopped winning.
Every buff killers get just makes killer players worse, and in turn makes them mandate more buffs.
amazing mental gymnastics.
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Take Reassurance and Camaraderie with it. Punish campers uber hard.
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Double edged sword. Weak enough killer and the average dbd player can beat that killer. Stronger killers still have a chance to lose to the average given dbd is half RNG. Of course I also include perks which perks can make up for bad survivors. The RNG allows for bad players to climb up because oop you got pallet city as trapper now you just default lose because no matter what you do another pallet is within 16 meters so the bad survivors can still win despite being bad.
Point being DBD RNG plays a major factor. If maps were more static with tile spawns then yes you would see bad survivors lose more and good survivors win more. But that big part of RNG is what messes everything up.
Hard to put it into words because bad survivors win cause of favorable RNG and perks while good survivors can still win with bad RNG cause perks (which is fine).Post edited by Brimp on1 -
That's a good suggestion for SWF but I play solo nearly exclusively due to my schedule. Both perks are great if people know to let you marinate on hook but solo can't communicate or coordinate that.
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Unfortunately no perk can combat Survivor stupid... to do that you'd have to have the most broken unbalanced stain of a perk ever... xD
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But if you're saying it's RNG then that's not consistent with saying Killers need to tunnel and camp in public matches either as RNG will also favour Killers at times. My position is that matchmaking and game balance is loose enough that it's not necessary to tunnel and camp to win the majority of your matches (and it is the developer's stated intention that Killers win more than they lose). I gave two specific outliers where it would feel different but I'm not discussing outliers; I'm discussing the overall state of public matches in DbD where it's not necessary to tunnel or camp to have more wins than losses.
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Idk I've seen and played plenty of games where people go cross map just to down multiple survivors within 20 seconds, they get unhooked and full reset and somehow still get gen progress enough to get down to 1 gen or even gates. That scenario doesn't scream "not in my right skill bracket" that screams "man this game really is that easy for survivor". Dbd never has and never will be a game thats super hard to play which is impressive considering average skill. The highest form of skill factor in this game is communication/common sense.
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My stated position on the perk has been it's useless in solo. I'm just restating that as it's unrealistic for anyone to expect that every forum poster keeps track of every other forum poster so I of course didn't expect you to know that I said that but that's my position. I'm not arguing it can't be used in a coordinated 4 person SWF; my argument has been that it's a badly designed perk as it's useless for all but a tiny portion of the player base (and the ones it benefits are the group that least needs any help).
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I'm not discussing specific games though; I'm discussing the overall trend over dozens to hundreds or more of games. I'm certainly not going to argue that there aren't matches where the Killer is horribly out-matched or they lost at the loading screen because they picked Clown and not Nurse but I'm discussing the rule and not the exception. I'm arguing that public matches overall have loose enough match making and are against solos or at most 2 person SWFs enough that it is not necessary to tunnel and camp in most public matches. There's nothing like pre 6.1 DH, infinite loops or insta-repair BNPs anymore that the average player can take advantage of. In most public matches it's just overkill to tunnel and camp.
Try a new Killer but don't tunnel and camp ever with them and see, after a few months, what your win rate is. You'll still win the majority of your games. Or, if you think Survivor is easy, spend half your game time playing solo and see how hard it is to actually do well as solo against a tunnelling Killer with no communication with or knowledge of your teammates strengths, weaknesses and perks. That's the majority of matches in public matches and why it's just overkill to tunnel and camp most matches.
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Well fair point, though to play Devil's Advocate it's quite tricky to make a perk like this be useful in soloQ and not abusable by SWF.
The goal was to make a perk that allowed transfer of hook states. This at base is EXTREMELY strong, like Old Borrowed Time level strong. So how do you do it?
Well now you have basically 2 options: -
- You allow the full strength and potential of the hook trade ability and give it a huge downside/risk so that regardless of SoloQ or SWF the killer can really punish them hard (this is what BHVR opted for). Sadly this means SoloQ tends to get punished much harder than SWF.
- You stack a huge number of conditions on it similar to DS, so the perks impact is massively neutered and very situational. E.g. each player can only have a hook stage traded either way a single time. (2 possible total per survivor team).
The latter would be complained about just as much since it would massively nerf the potential of the perk, and for SoloQ again, likely would not really stop insistent tunneling... so BHVR went the former route.
I am a believer that a sufficiently skilled set of soloQ players can play like a SWF.
I know that SoloQ has a disadvantage, and that is a byproduct of the facts that information in DBD is very valuable, but players who exploit all the knowledge available to them can effectively play like SWF. Most people don't, but they can.
So to my mind, you can't make a perk with power such as this a foolproof perk that any goomba can use freely, cause then you get the Borrowed Time/Decisive Strike/Mettle of Man situations.
How you reign perks like this in is difficult, but they absolutely must be reigned in.
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Hard-tunneling is bad for the game. Everything that makes it harder is a welcome addition if you ask me.
(Hard-tunneling = getting someone out at 3 hookstages / at least from my perspective)
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Honestly, I think the devs are just scared of a perk that swaps hook states and made sure to slap a big downside on it to discourage players from trying to abuse it.
I do think the nerf was unwarranted and I'd even go so far as to say that the Exposed effect should be replaced with something else, but I don't really think this is indicative of the devs trying to keep survivor perks weak or any other upsetting philosophy, just a bit quick to nerf something that could shape the meta.
Plus, Shoulder the Burden is infinitely more useful than Shattered Hope. If the devs wanted to make useless perks intentionally, I honestly think we'd be seeing much worse.
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Maybe you're too bad at playing survivor? Try play a killer 1,000 times and then tell us.
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If you think DH, MFT didn't need a nerf - then you probably don't understand the game yet, or just biased towards 1 side.
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Option 3: Remove the ability for it to be used multiple times on the same survivor, which would affect SWFs much more than solo q, because SWFs are way more likely to purposely have multiple people running the perk so they can stack it on the same survivor.
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Why would that be a problem?
Wouldn't you only be affected by that as killer if you repeatedly chase and hook that one survivor they're using it on?
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It's not nerfed into the ground, but it certainly also isn't nearly what some people make it out to be (the solution to tunnelling (no perk could be - if you were to make DS and OTR basekit tunnelling would be, if not solved, at least infinitely less of an issue, and they of course exist as perks, and yet curiously enough tunnelling is still a major live balancing issue), the new gamebreaking survivor perk everybody will be using (that curiously enough of course almost no one will use), the best perk in the game (?), etc.).
In non-SWF groups, you will struggle to even find people that equip the perk to begin with. It comes at a huge personal detriment to its user, they can go from healthy without hook stages to struggling for their life on hook in 1 often unavoidable hit. Lots of players are not even all that familiar with the concept of using their hook stages as a resource after all these years (i. e. the idea that getting hooked can be part of the reason why you ultimately escape), do not take offensive roles when others have more stages, do not take hits or let alone downs, rather even hide and don't think twice about how different a round could have gone in which they died (or escaped by hatch as the sole survivor) without having been hooked throughout. The vast majority of players certainly won't start using a perk that is literally the embodiment of the "your hook stages are a team resource" concept, let alone when it also comes with a huge drawback.
And then even if they do, it's not like going from a situation in which one survivor would have been in chase on death hook to one where a survivor is struggling on hook and another potentially in chase that will also be in struggle stage once back on hook is strictly beneficial for survivors, giving up two health states in the process. Much less so still of course if the survivor giving up their hook and health states is a better player than the one they gave them up for. And if you use STB on someone that isn't on death hook yet, you went from having someone in chase with unhook Endurance and potential anti-tunnelling perks that will be in struggle stage if they get hooked again, to someone instantly in struggle stage on hook without a chase and without having been able to use any potential anti-tunnelling perks.
The beneficial use cases for the perk are limited. Shifting a stage around doesn't have inherent value, it doesn't undo anything, the only way in which it can be useful is delaying the death of a specific survivor, at the cost of getting others closer to their death, plus the drawback of getting Exposed.
If someone is already in struggle stage and it can reasonably be assumed that the killer is looking to tunnel them out, a fresh survivor exchanging a stage such that the next hook won't take a survivor out of the match can be good, but even then unless you're already in the late game, the instadown and two hook stages the killer gets on the unhooker if they are anywhere near the hook (which a killer looking to tunnel regularly will be - and if they aren't the unhooked survivor could have regularly also hid or been healed, reducing the tunnel-out threat to begin with) can also spell trouble for the remainder of the match. Giving someone back their ability to use Deliverance if they had been hooked before activating it is neat (but again also regularly only really worth it if the unhooker is not instantly dying for it). In the endgame it can be beneficial for a fresh survivor to take a stage such that the next hook isn't a death hook, allowing the survivors to potentially make it close enough to a gate such that the killer can't hook as far away from it, but this obviously also only applies if the unhooker is not dying for the unhook because then the killer can if anything hook even further away from a gate. And then there's some edge cases where a survivor is the STBFL or Rancor Obsession or fully Condemned by Sadako or dying to Pig's RBT and can more carelessly give up their hook stages without it necessarily being as detrimental.
I don't think increasing the Exposed time was warranted, and I'm not even sure the perk having a drawback altogether is, as that will only discourage anyone but coordinated SWFs from using it, and it's uncoordinated groups more than any that need help against tunnelling.
I think on top of removing or reducing the Exposed time (potentially replacing it with some other, less immediately detrimental drawback such as a reduction in hook time or repair speed for the unhooker), an interesting change for the perk would be to remove the notification the killer gets on it having been used. Why would the killer need to know that their tunnel target has a hook stage less than they assume? This tricking of the killer if anything would make for the perfect anti-tunnel value, as it can make them overcommit to a tunnel that potentially isn't time-efficient anymore. It would also punish killers that tunnel so hard that they even forgo hitting the unhooker, as they then won't get the instadown.
That said, I do believe BHVR was right to be cautious with this perk. While tunnelling is not necessary to win in the vast majority of the matches this game will create, in the rare cases where killers do meet tough opposition tunnelling certainly at least for various of the lower-tier killers starts to become more important, sometimes even integral. The ability to delay a tunnel-out by potentially up to 3 hooks is not to be taken lightly, it does change something fundamental about how the game unfolds. I do however hope that as the weeks and months pass, they will realize that STB isn't as gamechanging as it may appear (not least because few players will use it), and if anything deserves to be more gamechanging for solo players.
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I agree, anything that can tone down hard-tunneling would be welcome.
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It's still busted strong being exposed longer wont change that a lick.
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It widens the gap between solo q and SWF too much.
One of the biggest double standards on these forums, is many people will demand buffs for survivors to bridge the gap between solo q and SWF…. but these same people won't want nerfs to survivors even if they rarely would affect solo q, and would mostly only affect SWF.
Because really, removing STB stacking on the same survivor would rarely affect solo q at all, so it's fine. It's 99% targeting SWFs that are purposely having multiple people run this perk.
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Sure, but does it actually affect the killer at all?
It's not a problem for SWF to be able to do something if it doesn't actually affect the killer. Would it actually affect the killer for StB to be stacked on the same survivor like that?
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I came from the future and I say that Shoulder the Burden came to be absolutely broken. The exposed time made no difference at all.
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If you honestly think that giving 3 extra hook states to a survivor wouldn’t affect a killer, then you should be 100% ok if the perk was nerfed to prevent the perk from being used on the same survivor multiple times.
Because why bother fighting against a nerf, if you don’t think it the nerf would affect the perk’s usefulness against killers?
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