The Double Standard: Is that a good Killer or a bad Survivor? What is a Tryhard?((TL;DR incoming))
So I have a lot of hours in this game. Not as many as some but much more than others and I have a question for the community to see how many people agree with me that there is a double standard when it comes to the difference between survivor and killer. For the record before anyone has an issue with whatever I say know that I'm not trying to argue with anyone about anything. I am simply trying to create a discussion to see if anyone agrees with me. I may sound like I'm complaining in some cases but I'm just telling you from my perspective what I think about certain things. You are more than welcome to have your own opinion. Please share it.
Also note that I am a killer main. But I have played a lot of survivor. Not much lately but I do know how to play survivor and I haven't had wanted to play survivor recently b/c of the state of the game. I have and can play any killer well at any rank. Though I generally will always sit at rank 1. Not so much lately but I am more than capable of playing survivor at any rank and play well.
For my topic if I bring up The Nurse I will only be talking about good Nurses or very competent ones. I am also going under the assumption that you will know what a map tile is, what various map tiles are, and how rng ( random number generator) and the games procedurally generated pallets and windows effects the creation of these tiles, what looping is, what proper pathing is, what zoning is, how to determine if a pallet is safe or not, what a juke is. Also what bloodlust and window blocking by the entity means. I will also be mentioning several perks in the game.
Another thing, if I refer to the chase I am referring to the interaction between a killer and a survivor where the killer is going to try to down the survivor. For this I will only be talking about a 115% movement speed killer that needs to m1 to down. I will bring up special cases referring to abilities and such when I bring them up.
The Double Standard
Survivor;
When it comes to survivor play certain things are expected if you know what you are doing. It takes 420 seconds of survivors working on objectives to complete what needs to be done for a survivor to escape. There are 5 gens that need to be done at 80 seconds each, while each exit takes 20 seconds to open, it totals out to 420 seconds of survivors working on their objective. I know the absurdity of this but lets assume that all survivors just do their objective. If all survivors worked their fair share then each would have just over 100 seconds of work on their objective before they can escape. That is not accounting for the killer or travel time between gens, doors, etc. That being said it is a reasonable assumption that all objectives could potentially be done in under 8 minutes if 1 survivor had to do all the generators and just over 3 minutes if all the survivors could be only working on gens. Explaining this right here is not an attempted to complain about how fast the games can go it is merely to point out that the survivors as a whole determine the pacing and speed of a game.
When it comes to the chase a survivor has a multitude of things they can use to prolong the chase at their disposal. To name some there are pallets, window vaults, looping, proper pathing, knowing how to recognize the various tiles in the game and how to run them(loop them). Another skill that to my knowledge that a lot of survivors lack is the ability to read killer movements and react accordingly. This is of course talking about keeping your eyes on the killer to sustain the loop also being able to know where on specific tiles a killer could mind game you.
For the sake of balance I will only mention mind games and their role in the chase a few times. The only true mind games in this game are true 50/50's and don't have a place when discussing the skill of survivors. The only place skill factors in is when it comes to how susceptible a survivor is to being mind gamed.
The skill of the survivors ability to run(loop) a killer can be determined in their proper pathing and use of pallets and window vaults. This comes to map knowledge and knowledge of the various map tiles and how to run them. Certain maps are notorious for having for having more or less of these tiles and atrocious tile placement. There is another kind of tile that I would like to mention but not in any specific way. A lot of people call these tiles "infinites". Infinites do not exist as long as bloodlust and entity window blocking is a thing. These tiles are generally main buildings and places of note on each map. They contain a powerful window vault and generally at least a pallet or two.
Another Tile worth mentioning is shack. Shack is an example of a perfectly balanced tile IMO. It has a window vault and a single pallet. It is down to the skill of both the killer and survivor to determine how long this tile can be looped.
This is also not referring to a perk known as Bamboozle. It is a killer perk that blocks off a window vault for survivors that subsequently makes these tiles very simple. I do not recommend using this perk b/c it will make you a worse killer, it is a perk that plays the game for you. You won't learn how to run any tiles properly if you rely on this.
If a survivor knows how to use tiles effectively( I am talking about a survivor that knows how to path and run the different tiles correctly) then it comes down to 4 things that determine how a chase gets started and how long it takes to down a survivor.
1. What tiles the survivor has available to them. This comes down to the strength of tiles the survivors have. Depending on the kind of tiles determine the amount of time spent at that tile. Running 4 walls, 2 wall, short and long wall jungle gyms, short single pallets, long single pallets. They all take different amounts of time to run. Some are susceptible to mind games but most are not. I would like to also mention something called a juke. Jukes are skillful actions taken by the survivor to avoid getting hit. I'm keeping it vague b/c a juke could be anything from a 360 to a window tech to a corner hide mid chase to a reverse in pathing at a line of sight cut off. They aren't extremely good at getting away from a killer but can be used to add something to a chase, it is up to the killers skill to quickly recognize the juke and continue accordingly.
2. The perks and items/add-ons the survivors have to work against the killer. Notably exhaustion perks that offer a way to get out of a situation where you would have taken a hit, Sprint Burst, Lithe, Dead Hard, Balanced Landing. Stealth/Caution perks, Spine Chill, Premonition, Alert, Urban Evasion, Iron Will. Instant heals. I'd like to also mention Decisive strike and Flashlights here as they both can represent a reset of a chase where the killer will lose their progress in the chase and need to chase again.
3. Is the killer a Nurse. Playing Nurse to me means an easy win. This of course can change pending the map and in some cases the skill of the survivor. But when it comes down to it. A Nurse that knows how to play no matter what map or skill of survivor should always get a hit within 2 blink sequences and in most cases only one. (Not factoring add-ons of any kind).
4. The ability of the Killer and their skill at the game. I put ability first b/c that is sometimes what matters more than the skill. Certain killer abilities are very poorly designed or have natural advantages to getting downs. Legion is a killers whose power is fundamentally broken. When the Legion uses their power it automatically puts a timer on all chases that occur which is unfair and horribly imbalanced. Hag is another I'd like to mention where her ability lets you trap places where survivors can loop with the PROPER TRAP placement can in MOST CASES guarantee a hit. Another of note is Huntress with her ranged attacks can injure at distance so it comes to the survivor needing to do other specialized jukes to counter her ability. Clown has a ability that in some cases can guarantee a hit at most unsafe to semi safe pallets. As well as Billy and Michael who can use their ability to 1 shot someone in certain instances. These are just to name some but you understand there are some special cases.
Is the Survivor's ability to stay up to various killers and run the killer for prolonged periods of time what determines if they are good or not, or is it something else?
Why are survivors that go down quickly in some cases just called bad. Why aren't survivors who run loops optimally called Tryhards?
Killer;
Ideally for the killer to "win" the game if you count that as a 4k or not, it's completely up to individual opinion. But under the assumption that it's a 4k then you have to hook 4 survivors 3 times each or make sure that they die on hook while making sure that the survivors don't compete their objective.
Under the assumption that everyone can agree right here that the only way a killer could possibly compete with the short amount of time it takes for survivors to complete their objective is to put enough pressure on survivors in the way of getting downs quickly and forcing other survivors to get unhooks AND/OR heal other survivors.
There are several ways to do well as killer and every one relies on you being able to down survivors quickly. This is of course easier said than done in most cases.
1. Using your power effectively is the most important thing to take into account when playing killer. Knowing how and when to use your power to get the most out of it is the most important thing you can do.
2. Using proper pathing. As killer you always have the time pitted against you. Knowing how to maximize your pathing is the most effective way to go though loops. This refers to running the different types of tiles correctly. Another important aspect of pathing is the ability to "zone". Zoning a survivor is one of the more effective ways to decrease the amount of time a chase requires to get a down. Zoning is the act of moving your killer to the right side of whatever loop or tile to try and force the survivor to go or head in the direction of a possibly unsafe place of the map. There is more to it but that's the basic concept.
3. Another important thing is the ability to recognize the kind of tile your at as fast as you can so you know the best way to run it. That being said understanding what a safe, semi-safe and what an unsafe pallet is will save you a lot of time so you can optimize your chase. Breaking safe pallets in most cases is the first thing you want to do if you come across it.
4. Understanding how survivors play and being able to learn the specific play style of a survivor during the chase is only a skill you can learn by doing it. Recognizing how a survivor plays will often save you a lot of time in the chase and can immediately help you with your priorities during the game to optimize your time.
5. Creating effective map pressure is the key to doing well as killer. Getting downs quickly and hooking survivors consecutively will go along way to put pressure on survivors. There are plenty of ways to create pressure some more effective than others and some less effective. Patrolling gens that need done, hooking survivors near gens that are being working on. Staying away from parts of the map that have no gens. Committing to and leaving chases at the proper times, slugging, tunneling, camping.
Is the killers ability to get downs quickly even though certain map tiles exist what makes them good, or is it something else?
Why are killers that do very good get called "Tryhard"? Why are all Nurse's Tryhards?
Again I just want people to talk about this. I want to know what peoples opinions are when it comes to this. I know I droned on about some things that should be obvious but I want to be clear about certain things that are issues with this game.
Why are good survivors just survivors while good killers are tryhards?
Comments
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Any TL;DR pls?0
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I think its worth mentioning that the new medium vault made running most tiles with window extremely boring for survivor as now you can make multiple mistakes and still get away with it as how fast the medium vault is.
For example before you had to have some sort of skill to get fast vault if killer was running the shack properly. Now you can just hug the wall and take a medium vault back inside as its almost as fast taking a momentum by leaving the wall and getting a fast vault.
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As long as they play the base game, they're not tryhards. Running tiles optimally and playing mindgames is skill. When they start stacking broken things to get an advantage through consumables, i'd call them tryhards (e.g. Ebony mori/Insta-X vs stacking 2nd chances).
A survivor who plays shack perfectly and wastes a lot of time through good predicitions is respectable. A survivor who wastes time with sb, ds, instaheal, unbreakable, adrenaline is not (at least for me). Same for killers. Base killer who downs quickly with good movement and fake outs is good. Someone who stacks the best addons and moris and tunnelcamps is not.
but i guess everyone has other standards1 -
Why are survivors that go down quickly in some cases just called bad.
Because they got downed quickly. (whining comes from the survivor side)
Why are Survivors who run loops optimally are called Tryhards?
Because here the whining comes form the killer's side.
Why are killers that do very good get called "Tryhard"?
If you do good, you are probably trying hard. It's not an insult. Remember all the tryhards trying to land a rocket on the moon?
Why are all Nurse's Tryhards?
Because in a fake-ranking system, playing against the strongest killer, being team-dependant and being matched up with people that can be far from your skill-level will often result in you losing due to this non-strict matchmaking. That frustration translates into what I just quoted.
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@Vietfox said:
Any TL;DR pls?If you can't be bothered to read the entire post then you might as well not comment at all considering the fact that condensing such a post causes you to lose important details, not everyone is going to shorten their post because a few people can't be bothered to read and hear out the points provided. I'd recommend taking some time to read it as it really isn't that long of a post.
Going on with the actual post itself, I only deem a person as a "tryhard" the moment they avoid any concept of skilled play and use cheap tactics for the pure intent to win and only ever to win without ever changing their playstyle, essentially they play in the cheapest and most annoying way possible or end up doing something so insane that to the majority of the players it should not be possible at all, though that last bit isn't something that can happen in DbD.
For this reason, I do not consider an optimal player on either side to be a "tryhard" as for a survivor they play to their goal to survive and as a killer they play to their goal to kill. This is simply because there really isn't much to learn so playing the game right isn't the biggest challenge in the world meaning there is nothing really annoying or cheap about playing the game as intended, just frustrating. This is a part I find a lot of players get mixed up about as they often blame their frustrating experiences on tryhards rather than admitting that the killer or survivor was playing right to accomplish their goal.
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Sorry i need a TL;DR for that too.@vampire_toothy said:@Vietfox said:
Any TL;DR pls?If you can't be bothered to read the entire post then you might as well not comment at all considering the fact that condensing such a post causes you to lose important details, not everyone is going to shorten their post because a few people can't be bothered to read and hear out the points provided. I'd recommend taking some time to read it as it really isn't that long of a post.
Going on with the actual post itself, I only deem a person as a "tryhard" the moment they avoid any concept of skilled play and use cheap tactics for the pure intent to win and only ever to win without ever changing their playstyle, essentially they play in the cheapest and most annoying way possible or end up doing something so insane that to the majority of the players it should not be possible at all, though that last bit isn't something that can happen in DbD.
For this reason, I do not consider an optimal player on either side to be a "tryhard" as for a survivor they play to their goal to survive and as a killer they play to their goal to kill. This is simply because there really isn't much to learn so playing the game right isn't the biggest challenge in the world meaning there is nothing really annoying or cheap about playing the game as intended, just frustrating. This is a part I find a lot of players get mixed up about as they often blame their frustrating experiences on tryhards rather than admitting that the killer or survivor was playing right to accomplish their goal.
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Perception issues, a lot of perception issues on both sides1
