Remove the Generator Regression Event Limit
The Generator Damage Limit was introduced way too late to a problem that didn't exist anymore. Skull Merchant had been reworked, Eruption, Call of Brine and Overcharge have been nerfed and we had moved on into the Pain Res Meta. And since then Knight has been reworked as well, and they added perks to counter 3 gens like Weaving Spiders, Dramaturgy or Specialist.
So the Perks and biggest offenders of a 3 gen strat are gone, the strategy wasn't that OP anyway and often only succeeded due to Survivors misplaying, and we have added way more counterplay. So what is the point?
All the gen kick limit does now is limit perk diversity. Killers who used to run full regression now run 2 regression perks and 2 generator block perks for basically the same. But Perks that were already nerfed into the ground, like Eruption or Call of Brine, became even worse and now you never see them outside of dedicated generator kick builds. You cannot just use Eruption because you feel like it or the game will literally punish you for it by banning you from effectivelychallenging Generators.
A strategy I see more and more when playing Killers like Trapper, Bubba or Perma Tier 3 Myers, is prerunning. Survivors will just sit on a generator, but as soon as they hear your terror radius they start running away. Undetectable perks don't help either because of them usually being SWFs so one Survivors seeing you gives you away to the whole team. This means you either need to waste tons of time catching up to them or you can damage the gen, undo their progress and repeat this later. Well it used to mean that. Now Survivors can prerun witthout consequences, as eventuall the Killer will run out of opportunities to damage the Generator. Now, the Survivors can force the Killer to spend literal minutes of a game just playing catch up without actually doing anything, meanwhile the teammates complete other generators unchallanged, or they have to watch as the generators they literally cannot damage get slowly completed.
And if that makes 3 genning a whole game a viable strategy again, so what? Eruption and Call of Brine are still dead. Overcharge is still weak. It would not be nearly as good as the current meta strategies, just useable. There are plenty of annoying and slow strategies that are allowed to run rampant, why was only 3 genning not only killed, but also had its corpse thrown into a lake of fire so that nobody can ever touch it again?
Overall, the Generator Regression Event Limit solves a problem that doesn't exist anymore, and unlocks strategies that allow to full on counter some killer, while also limiting game- and buildstyles, and unnecessarily nerfing some perks. It has no place in this game anymore.
Comments
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Honestly I just want eruption's events to not count as regression events. Pop does more damage and costs 1 event, overcharge only costs 1 event to apply and it triggering does not count as a second event. Call of brine applies on a single kick, only eruption needs 2 events to work.
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Agreed, the gen kick limit is fine, eruption is the only perk that really gets screwed by it. Call of Brine kinda sucks in general (Except on Nemesis with good zombies) but the gen kick limit has nothing to do with it. Eruption just needs to either be buffed to be worth losing gen kicks faster, or be buffed so they don't count as regression events.
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3 genning sucks to play against. Killers like Singularity, even pre-buff, were far too adept at it and still are even with the kick limit in play. Removing it returns stall metas to the forefront, which aren't fun to play against now and wouldnt be if Eruption was brought back in. Sure, other unfun strats continue to exist, but why bring back this unfun strat just because they haven't gotten around to the other ones yet (and may not have clean solutions for the others at any point?)
And re. prerunning, it's a part of a survivor's toolkit. If you're not applying enough pressure, then the loss is deserved, especially if you're running heavy slowdown setups.
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"And re. prerunning, it's a part of a survivor's toolkit. If you're not applying enough pressure, then the loss is deserved, especially if you're running heavy slowdown setups."
You could say the same in reverse. 3 genning is a part of the killers toolbox. If Survivors arent applying enough pressure to the right generators, then the loss is deserved.Yet 3 genning was removed from the killers toolkit, due to being too unfun.
"Sure, other unfun strats continue to exist, but why bring back this unfun strat just because they haven't gotten around to the other ones yet (and may not have clean solutions for the others at any point?)"
They havent just not gone around to it, they are buffing them. Look at sabotage or thrill of the hunt. Also, they killed Eruption twice , that is not a clean way of removing 3 genning.
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They messed around with the 3-gen issue because it takes coordination to overcome, not just that it's unfun. Solos and most duos cannot coordinate like that.
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Except that prerunning doesnt hand-craft 45+ minute matches of barely-interactive walking up to and then away from the same generator whilst the killer brute forces the mistakes that cost survivors the match. I don't see how the two are equivalent in scope at all.
Ditto for Thrill, really. The perk may be overtuned but its overtuned within the scope of a normal match of DBD. It isn't going to force a match duration out well beyond what is expected of the survivors queueing.
If your problem is with Eruption, advocate for buffing Eruption, not recreating a system of play that wastes everyones time for almost an hour (longer were it not for the fact that at an hour the lobby closes itself).
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I mean in that case your abetrary standard is different from mine. Not much to say.
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So does Cenobite, yet I dont see people calling to remove him from the game.
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Do you… not want killers aiming for lockout like its the win con to be a thing of the past?
It's not an arbitrary measure, I want to interact with my opponent in any meaningful way and do so in a relatively timely manner, and 3 gen strats allow for neither, forcing an hour of the killer playing "press space at the gen simulator" whilst the survivors all mostly watch.
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No, before Skull Merchant it was knight and before Knight it was Doctor. Skull Merchant was the easiest one, but every killer can just camp the 3 gen and make the games long and boring. This mechanic was needed and should stays.
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The Generator Regression Limit is designed to prevent excessive 3-Gen holding. Even with it still in the game, the Killer is still able to hold a 3-Gen for a decent amount of time and gain pressure from doing so, and some perks can outright bypass the GRL entirely (e.g. Hex: Ruin).
To put it bluntly, it does have a purpose, but I do think it has flaws.
I think the issue with the GRL is that some regression events count as multiple instances instead of just 1. Eruption is a good example, since the first kick applies Eruption and counts towards GRL, and Eruption’s regression also counts towards GRL, making it take up 2 out of the 8 Regression Events. This system has also made a wide variety of other perks better/worse instead of giving all of them a fair opportunity to shine.
Likewise, I think kicking a Generator with no regression perks whatsoever should never contribute to the GRL, since it is impossible to protect a 3-Gen indefinitely no perks to help, GRL should only work on instances where higher than normal regression is applied since those are instances where 3-Gens can be problematic.
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Its designed to to do that, but it affects more than that. I've seen the limit kick in numerous times when a 3 gen isn't even remotely happening. Heck, as a survivor, you can force a vital central gen to permanent lock up within 5 minutes of the match starting. It's just far too abusable.
If the whole thing is truly to stop 3 gens from happening, then it should only start counting once there's only 3 gens left. Anything else is just an excuse.
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Then it should only start counting once there only 3 Generators left.
This is something I kind of disagree with, some maps have tight enough Generator spreads (paired with awful RNG) that allows more than just tight 3-Gen set-ups to spawn.
For Example, Azarov’s Resting Place is known for having 4-Gen and sometimes even 5-Gen set-ups if RNG allows it.
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The mechanic itself isn't worthless, the idea is decent, however (despite many people saying so and even posting videos showcasing it) it was implemented poorly.
Many Killers can still 3-gen decently (Dull Merchant was the top dog for that but now...well if someone played her again we could tell) and it's still difficult to deal with (greatly dependant on the map & Killer) but against most of the M1/weaker side of the Killer spectrum it is not difficult to weaponize the "Anti-3-gen" system in order to keep a free gen for the end.
If the mechanic only kicked-in at 4 gens remaining on the map then it wouldn't be so bad because at least the system couldn't be weaponized from the start and it truly would only be there to prevent endless lategame stalemates.
@Iron_Cutlass Undone also applies 2 regression events if tokens are used when kicking (tested this with a friend in custom and blocked the gen in 4 kicks). Not only was this perk D.O.A in the first place but the system double-tapped it to guarantee it basically never sees unironical use.
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What the heck are you even doing??? I could run 4 slowdown perks and constantly kick gens and still not hit the regression event cap on a single gen. The stall strategy still works just as good as before its just a skill issue at this point
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Nah, keep it. Surge is already too good.
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It's in the game for a reason.
Alternative:
• Buff Eruption so it only uses 1 regression event up.
• Buff Overcharge and Call of Brine, but make them not stack.
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buff base-kit regression to 200%. this buffs 3 gen but keeps it fair as the survivor as the survivor will win eventually. 5% regression and removal gen-tapping is not enough to main gen-kicking relevant. more buff is needed.
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I disagree, the limits are fine and still have a place in the game. While it's true that perks like Eruption can sometimes use up 8 regression events without necessarily 3-genning, at that point assuming 4 Eruptions you've gotten at a minimum 60% regression on that generator + whatever was lost due to gradual regression over time. If you're losing games to the regression limits in pretty much any circumstance, you probably did something wrong. If you aren't holding a 3 gen then usually by the time Eruption or Surge locks you out of a gen you should already be in a winning position in most cases. I don't 3 gen and I have never ever lost a game to the regression limits.
I really don't think that this is an issue and if the system were made more relaxed in any way it would often fail to do what it's designed to do, 8 regression events is more than enough. Overall the whole package of changes in that update was actually a net buff to killers due to gen kicking becoming more effective.
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Why would you buff 3-genning? This is probably the most boring way to play the game as Killer.
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^ this.
I feel if people bring up Eruption (or other Regression-Perks), they completely ignore that they still get value out of those Perks. It is not like Eruption or similar Perks just eat up the Regression-Limit and do nothing more.
The system was implemented around a year ago and I have seen it a handful of times at max that it actually affected by Killer-games. (And probably the same when playing Survivor, but I cannot know for sure if and when a Killer reached the Regression-Limit)
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I would argue it's basically impossible to weaponise this system because you can never force the killer to be aggressively hellbent on damaging generators over anything else.
The example I'm typically shown is something like the centre gen on RPD, which one or two survivors aggressively keep repairing while the killer returns to damage the gen while they either run away or stealth away. What these examples always miss, in my opinion, is that all the killer needs to do is chase whoever's repairing without damaging the generator and this problem disappears.
It'll be a different problem for them if they can't get a down quickly, sure, but the point is that you can't actually force the killer to make a mistake and keep damaging generators when better options are available. It's not weaponising a poorly implemented mechanic, it's leveraging a mechanic for something just barely outside its intended use- the aggressive gen-stalling may not be in a 3 gen, but it's still aggressive gen-stalling, which is what the system was designed to combat.
Eruption and Undone could do with some small changes to help them not be negatively affected, but outside of those specific perks, there's really not any issue with this system. It's barely even likely to show up the warning spikes in regular games, let alone actually block a generator.
Which, to the wider topic, is why I don't think this system is problematic at all. Unless you're specifically trying to stall the match out without getting any progress, you're basically never even going to see this system, let alone be genuinely negatively affected by it.
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because 3 gen are too weak. the principal of the change in the update was to make each kick more impact. in exchange, survivors would be able to complete generators after a certain amount of back and forth.
The issue? Each kick is not enough impact while killers still got a nerf/negative change.
Killer got short-end of the stick. survivors got a particular problem resolved.
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Not really. The Killer got something removed which almost never happens in regular gameplay, but got a buff to kicking Gens and the removal of Gentapping.
Killers won in this one. And it is not even a discussion.
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I apologize for the ones who play me so horribly and unfun.
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Imma disagree with this and it is for 2 reasons:
- The number of times I have seen the anti-kick mechanic change the result of a game in my 6000 hours is approximately 0 times.
2. If you are consistently hitting the cap on gen regression that means that the game really is not being played as intended or in a way that is fun. You are playing killer, not david the demo man. The point is to be chasing and hooking survivors while also protecting your gens. Protecting gens doesnt mean kick them over 8 times lol. You should of downed or chased the survivor one of the other 7 times you were at the gen.
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It's okay, I play with a nice full chase hux build and playstyle rather than trying to make skull merchant's second round happen.
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i do not agree. killer lost something valuable and received low impact change. it is why you see complaints about gen-blocking mechanic and you still get complaints about gen-speed.
for reference, i don't think the infinity kicking to slow the game down for 60 minutes with COB/OC/Eruption was healthy to the game but nerfing it+All game-delay perks without helping the killer with base game speed is an unfair change. Give and Take was not equal.
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How much fun do you think it is to lose because you were forced to let the opposing team score?
- If you get into a gen-split scenario as the killer, you're up s**t creek without a paddle.
- If you get into a 3-gen scenario as a survivor, you get a special system that disables gen defense.
I've never seen such a snooty display of bias in a pvp game before, and all because one side didn't find it "fun" that the other side was putting up a fight…It's ridiculous.
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BHVR outright stated that regression limit is hit in a tiny proportion of games (and 8 was picked because itd hit a tiny proportion of games).
If you're losing to the kick limit all the time, maybe work on getting value out of the kicks you're putting out, or try strategies better suited to your strengths as a killer?
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That sounds like a map design issue as opposed to a gen mechanic issue.
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This was introduced with removal of gen-tapping, so if you want your limit to be removed, survivors should get their gen-tapping back 🤷♂️
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