General Discussions
General Discussions
Maybe my most controversial take
I think a lot of players, on both sides, have complaints about balancing changes, because they dont realize they have been MMR boosted and facing opponents they shouldnt have been able to face in the first place. I'm taking killer specifically for this post due to current changes affecting them the most, but its also true for survivors when medkits were being changed, or when MFT got changed (people saying they now needed to genrush to compete with the killers they were facing, like, duh, you boosted yourself and now you have to deal with the consequences of that).
Think about it, for killers claiming that its impossible to win without slugging, in the past 4 years the following things happened:
Gens have been increased by 10 seconds.
Mapsizes have been reduced.
Basekit generator kicking applies 5% damage and the gen keeps regressing untill the survivor fixed the 5%.
Chase related interactions are 10% shorter for killers, and survivors received a 10% nerf in boost duration.
DS has been nerfed to a point its rarely being used.
Killers in general have been upped in strength.
Less pallets on average.
Less windows on average.
More hooks per square meter of map so less time carrying survivors to hooks.
And sure, BT has been made basekit, sure, hook timers have been increased by 10 seconds. But how often does basekit BT actually trigger unless you tunnel? How often do survivors stay on hook for longer than 60 seconds?
All in all, the game should have been easier for killers in general to the point where they didnt need to rely on slugging, tunnelling and 4 gen regression perks. But yet people did. And now they face survivors who are basically out of their league to the point that they have to keep relying on the things that boosted them to those brackets in the first place.
And while I think there are some valid points, I am also 100% convinced that the vast majority of players have accidentally MMR boosted themselves and now simply have to deal with the consequences untill their MMR lowers to more realistic numbers.
The game has objectively been getting easier for killers, yet you claim its harder than ever. Then maybe the conclusion should be that you're facing opponents that are out of your league.
Comments
-
While I partially agree, I think it's also worth pointing out that players have also optimised their play more and more. The skilllevel that sufficed when Pyramid Head released is simply lower than the skilllevel required now.
Another, more concrete example. Years ago, people still did totems. Nowadays, you'll get flamed for even starting one if there's no hex in play.
14 -
Also true, but that would also mean that 1 side did not optimize their gameplay. Which would still be a skill issue on that end.
If survivors somehow optimized their games on average to a point where 10 extra seconds on smaller maps allows them to win, because otherwise they would lose more often, then that means killers have not been optimizing their games in the meantime. Arguably because they have been able to rely on something they shouldnt have been able to rely on that consistently.
This change simply means killers have to rethink how to play the game. Find ways to create deadzones early on in generator dense zones, find ways to zone survivors in directions you want them to zone or force them to tank a hit and go where they want for a reduced total chasetime. Hook people strategically rather than just the nearest hook (spending those 5 extra seconds to get them in the center of your gen-dense area can often mean forced hooktrades or even a free hookstate because you can prevent unhooks consistently while keeping an eye on your gens). It's rare that I see those strategies employed these days, and they almost always happen by accident, while back in the day, it was pretty much a guaranteed early kill without needing to tunnel at all since there would always be 1 person on the hook.2 -
This change simply means killers have to rethink how to play the game.
Precisely my point. This is ostensibly required to stay competitive. It requires developing a whole different mindset and, crucially, time investment, which a not-insignificant portion of players are just not willing to do. Understandably so, I might add. This is supposed to be a hobby, not a secondary job.
DbD, as simple as it may seem, is just a difficult game. And it keeps getting more difficult as players improve. The only thing the devs can do here is disrupt the optimised strategies, but that's also guaranteed to result in backlash.
2 -
I mostly agree, but i do think mmr is a large part of this issue too. Once you cross over to the next level the people you face may be around your level or way above and then you're stuck there. They need to tighten up the levels. And if you are maxed out, sorry that all your games feel sweaty, how do you think everyone else feels playing against you? (Not you specifically meghead).
There are only 3 levels, right? Low, mid and high? There should at least be 4, ideally 5. Allow the noobs to play better people, but not fed to the sharks immediately.
If I am misunderstanding mmr in anyway, someone please correct me.
1 -
Think about it, for killers claiming that its impossible to win without slugging, in the past 4 years the following things happened:
Oh right, because there were no changes along those that affected killers negatively, right?
No buffs for survivors and definetly no nerfs to killer perks…How often do survivors stay on hook for longer than 60 seconds
They should stay there ALWAYS if you expected tunneling. It's quite normal, if you know what you are doing.
-7 -
Yeah, I've always said the same. Peanits (a dev) even said as such once here on the forum. The game is designed to give you more difficult opponents the better you do. It's designed to get harder, so you have to work harder if you want the same results. So if someone feels they have to bring the strongest perks and add-ons, or have to play a certain way, and even then they struggle, it can usually indicate they are indeed at a level they should not be at. This goes for both sides but I do think we see it more in killers purely because it's easier to rise in MMR as killer than as survivor. I suspect it's why we see poor baby killers getting landed with experienced survivors sometimes and get steamrolled. I think it's intentional to stop them rising too fast, because baby survivors are too easy to steamroll in turn. But that's just a theory, I could be way off and it's just terrible matchmaking lol
5 -
hard to say i've been MMR boosted when 9/10 survivor games i die or escape through hatch. pretty much the opposite for killer, almost always get 3-4k. I mainly play killer but have been playing survivor for the past few months exclusively to finish up challenges and it's a pretty bad time.
7 -
I generally agree with what op said, for both survivors and killers. Some of the details can get controversial on both sides, so I'll avoid discussing those for now, but I do generally agree. One thing I'm not sure about though is exactly how MMR is implemented in DBD.
Like, how often is your MMR updated in a way that impacts your matchmaking? Is it faster to climb MMR than drop? There's at least one tier where once you rise out of it, you can't drop back into it, but is that true for all MMR ranges? Are matches determined in a way that takes into account the nearest MMR players currently available to match in your lobby, or are we all just grouped in bins (e.g. low, mid, high)?
I think I could personally try to understand these issues better if I knew some of those things for certain. I do know that there are benchmarks that can tell if a player has risen out of certain MMR ranges since you'll stop seeing certain things in your matches and get more sophisticated opponents/teammates. But the fine-scale details are less clear to me.
1 -
But that's also precisely the point, both sides have optimized their play, you just don't like how killers have done it because its not "fun"
2 -
Telling killers to just lose to settle in an MMR is such lazy bad advice. The MMR system doesn't work like that. Once you get over the soft cap, you get matched with everyone including all the sweats out of your league. Case in point I'm terrible at survivor. Die 9/10 games. I still get matched against p100 Blights
1 -
It's not like sweating your keester off and making yourself miserable to keep your MMR up is a better idea.
1 -
That's a funny thing to say because I went and did that, but not with the goal of easier matches.
On the way down through the MMR ranks, and I did this for a few hundred hours of play on one killer I found a few segregations of survivors. Right now I'm in the realm of the failed. I mean, I think I'm below where players start, its that bad in a coordinated game play sense. Individually its a very mixed bag down here, some of them clearly know about collision and object sizes, and specific counters to this killer, others are just drunk or messing around, and some are clearly first match types. I did this because I really needed to know if they'd get less upset if they didn't die. They just leave after each match regardless of whatever else I do, they are not allowed to die on the hook( incidentally the new anti face camping thing has been a huge help in this at times.), and I'll carry them to toss out if I have to. I of course use no disfavored tactics. And it makes no difference in the vast majority of games, I still collect the same amount of venom and salt. Very occasionally someone says thanks. And these experiences like nothing else said about this game proved to me that the community here can not feel satisfied while maintaining any semblance of balance in this game.
I believe you are the most correct person today.
-1 -
Creating deadzones in maps is now impossible with the sheer amount of unmindgamable pallets and strong windows that all chain into each other on all but maybe one or two maps
-6 -
What and who determines whether someone’s MMR is “boosted” or what it “should” be? Is using certain perks a sign of “boosting”? Certain killers? Certain addons? Items? Map offerings? SWF? What makes one person’s MMR correct and another “boosted”?
Is my MMR boosted because I like playing Tombstone Myers? Would it be the opposite of boosted if I only played Scratched Mirror Myers? How about if I bring BNPs and Eyrie of Crows offerings? Or no items at all? What can I use to find my “real” MMR and what is “boosted”?
I don’t really think there’s any kind of objective answer, and IMO saying someone’s MMR is higher than it “should be” is just saying you don’t like how someone plays and therefore it doesn’t count, neener neener neener.
It doesn’t really make sense to judge or critique another person based on an invisible number we never see.1 -
(people saying they now needed to genrush to compete with the killers they were facing, like, duh, you boosted yourself and now you have to deal with the consequences of that).
How do survivors boost MMR? Like doing SWF and winning when they should've been solo and losing more often? I'm not sure what you mean.
Chase related interactions are 10% shorter for killers, and survivors received a 10% nerf in boost duration.
What do you mean by a nerf in boost reduction? Like when you get hit, the distance you get to gain spacing? I don't read patch notes.
0 -
Did you get mostly negative interactions? I get some grumpy survivors, but mostly ggs and happy endgames... or total silence...
3 -
Mostly silence, which is the same as any other killer I use.
No thing I do on any killer, aside from deliberately using the most hated tactics listed here increases interaction rates.
My point was, playing nice, painfully so, effects nothing.
-1 -
You know the problem with MMR is that once you get above a certain level you will ONLY face SWF (which is cheating in its highest form) I understand that people want to have fun with their friends but 4? I played a lot of world of warcraft and its hard to do 3s because people dont have time nevermind 4s but in this game it seems like its very common to get together every night and play 4 on coms.
To balance this out i got a proposal and that is also a 3rd party software that they got in WoW. GladiatorlosSA its called and it calls out everything the other team is doing, Sheep, Frostbolt, silence, kick, blind, Vanish etc.
Perhaps killers should have an addon like that in this game to balance the communication out so when you are leaving shack i hear a female voice (leaving shack, heading towards main, Doing X gen, Healing in basement.
Then you will see how funny and oppressive it is when the killer know whatever you are doing like you know whatever us killers are doing without even have to LOOK SEE or use you Perks, It comes right into your ear from your dear friend.-4 -
I don't know if we only play against SWF (thats certainly how it feels) when we go over a certain threshold in the MMR system. The fact that they do everything in their power to keep MMR from going public (even going so far as to involve their legal department when we request our personal MMR info) makes me think something is really wrong on their end.
I am by no means a pro player, but playing killer has become so tedious that it's not fun anymore. Matches are so optimized that survivors can burn through 5 generators (even while I'm using Pain Resonance/Pop), effectively completing 6 to 7 generators in a match in less than ten minutes and escaping.
On the survivor side, it's the complete opposite, getting destroyed with 4 to 5 generators still left because my random teammates don’t even seem to know what a generator is….2 -
Ah, that could be the difference. I give hatch a lot, and the hatch recipients usually do the ggs and ty stuff.
4 -
I was killing no one, just 2 hooks each, so no hatch could spawn.
2 -
Running things like WoO, Lithe, OTR and We'll Make It, while running Commdious Toolboxes with BNPs and max charges, or medkits with syringes and bringing Survivor sided map offerings constantly.
All strong perks and items in DBD if used regularly start causing bad habits for both sides, cause the reason they are strong is they circumvent elements you need to be mindful of without those perks.
Try playing Survivor without strong items or exhaustion and second chances perks, or killer with only brown add-ons and without gen slowdown and strong aura reading perks. If you've been using these for a long time and suddenly take those things away, you'll have lost or even never developed the fundamental skills required to play without those perks... I.e. you're boosted.
In survivors case, many people unwittingly get their teammates killed, cause they operate with the thought "well I can survive that", not realising its their build massively helping/allowing them to do it... so they drop allies in similar situations then call them crap when they get killed... not realising they themselves created the problem situation for them.
Playing off meta often opens your eyes to what you can and can't get away with, regardless of perks in play... I'd recommend it to anyone to do this regularly.
2 -
I think a lot of players, on both sides, have complaints about balancing changes, because they dont realize they have been MMR boosted and facing opponents they shouldnt have been able to face in the first place. I'm taking killer specifically for this post due to current changes affecting them the most, but its also true for survivors when medkits were being changed, or when MFT got changed (people saying they now needed to genrush to compete with the killers they were facing, like, duh, you boosted yourself and now you have to deal with the consequences of that).
well, there are way too many players like that, you can find them all the way on dbdtwt, dbdtok, Reddit and also here.
The big problem with dbd community is that majority of players who don't really have necessary game knowledge are very confident in engaging balance discussions simply because they are some "high MMR" when in fact they aren't aware how awful matchmaking is and that losing often when at soft MMR cap does mainly mean you are underperforming.
Think about it, for killers claiming that its impossible to win without slugging, in the past 4 years the following things happened:
Gens have been increased by 10 seconds.
Mapsizes have been reduced.
Basekit generator kicking applies 5% damage and the gen keeps regressing untill the survivor fixed the 5%.
Chase related interactions are 10% shorter for killers, and survivors received a 10% nerf in boost duration.
DS has been nerfed to a point its rarely being used.
Killers in general have been upped in strength.
Less pallets on average.
Less windows on average.
More hooks per square meter of map so less time carrying survivors to hooks.
here we come up to a problem.
Gen speed increase is a very welcome feature, but the fact that toolboxes and BNPs are still at their current state, along with perks that are truly what we can call genrush (Hyperfocus+Stake Out for example) is quite problematic thing.
Some maps have been absolutely obliterated, like Haddonfield and Borgo, but other than that, no significant changes have been done to maps.
Basekit gen kick yea, but at the cost of 8 events limit. Not that the change is bad, but with some perks/addons you can reach regression event limit very fast (e.g. Eruption).
Chase related interaction are still very strong for surv.
DS was still strong at 3s (exception for Nurse, Billy and Blight, and even though there were suggestions that would make this perk much better against them while not punishing already weak killers more than it already was, majority of the community won).
Yes, killers have been upped in strength as an attempt to keep up with surv strength, but big majority still can't keep up with surv metas at all.
Less pallets on few maps.
Less windows on few maps.
More hooks doesn't really matter when hooks are already more beneficial for survs than they are for killers + sabo was rebuffed, bringing back the most unhealthy kind of gamepplay on surv side back.
And sure, BT has been made basekit, sure, hook timers have been increased by 10 seconds. But how often does basekit BT actually trigger unless you tunnel? How often do survivors stay on hook for longer than 60 seconds?
i mean, basekit BT is an anti-tunnel + hit tanking feature for aggressive usage (along with OTR). Regarding survs staying on hook, people just don't wanna greed anyone on hook don't know the actual benefits of keeping surv on a hook a bit longer in any case, so that's why it isn't very present nowadays.
All in all, the game should have been easier for killers in general to the point where they didnt need to rely on slugging, tunnelling and 4 gen regression perks. But yet people did. And now they face survivors who are basically out of their league to the point that they have to keep relying on the things that boosted them to those brackets in the first place.
great problem with tunneling is that majority of killers simply don't stand a single chance without a 3v1 asap, and even that strategy heavily punished by more and more additions that not only counter it, but also any hooking order other than fresh 12-hooking. Majority of killers still can't 12-hook because of so many features and perks triggering off hook and 12-hooking also being a biggest waste of time as killer. The very point of playing of surv nowadays in terms of hooks is forcing killer to spread hooks as much as possible.
Slugging is basically optimal play nowadays in order to avoid on and off-hook triggering mechanics and perks. Also, it is basically implemented into basekit of killers like Oni, Twins, Plague and Myers.
What actually is a big problem with average killer player is that they don't know how, when and where to tunnel, slug or camp. They will just be focused to use those strats 24/7 no matter what and exactly that will make them lose their matches against any at least a bit competent team.
And while I think there are some valid points, I am also 100% convinced that the vast majority of players have accidentally MMR boosted themselves and now simply have to deal with the consequences until their MMR lowers to more realistic numbers.
this is the well known case on both sides and it's funny that, even though people have pumped their MMR up, due to soft cap being too low, they will always be at the very mid level in terms of skill. That's why we always hear well knowns:
TUNNELING/SLUGGING/CAMPING OP
GENRUSHING/FLASHLIGHTS OP.
With the current state of MMR, you can literally have a very high winrate no matter which side you play if you have enough skill, because once you reach soft cap, average skill of your opponent(s) will stagnate. That saying, MMR is almost a nonexistent thing atm.
The game has objectively been getting easier for killers, yet you claim its harder than ever. Then maybe the conclusion should be that you're facing opponents that are out of your league.
the game has also been objectively been getting easier for survs too, yet they also claim it's harder than ever. Strongest tools to counter camping, tunneling and slugging ever and still, people fail to counter those + were playing against those way better when there were way less perks to counter them?
Not to mention constant giving up. For what? We all know 3v1 asap is very important for killer, why is tunneling so problematic also if survivors themselves induce that 3v1 even after…first chase?
-3 -
interesting take. i actually had a conversation a long time ago that involved quite a few of the same things you said.
i think with gaming culture in general, a select group of people have gotten very accustomed to being allowed to curbstomp repeatedly rather than taking satisfaction in their own progress. there's a heavy reliance on having the tools rather than the skill it takes to use the tools effectively. MMR has proven this immensely which is why i now think that it should remain the way that it is.
at this point, i'd even argue that a lot of the game's issues have nothing to do with the way its designed, but player psychology. this is prominent throughout the entire gaming industry.1 -
Yes, I agree with the MMR system people have been conditioned to play more optimally and efficiently as possible
That's why I am not inherently against tunneling or slugging because sometimes you need to exert pressure to keep up with survivors. However, you need to understand when to drop chase, when to commit to a chase, monitor your gens, know how to master the killer that you're playing as, and even know how to win mind-games as many skilled players in high MMR killer ranks know how to hide their red stain. Sure, you don't need to tunnel or slug to get a 4k, but it is the easiest way to achieve one.
Same could be said for the survivor side - you need to stay on top of gens, you need to learn how to loop optimally, know how to keep chase going by utilizing check spots and proper mind-game maneuvers to outplay the killer in question trust me, there's a lot of memorization that a regular survivor needs to know.
In essence, killer and survivor is kinda like two forces exerting one another. If a killer is very great at many of the skills I said above, while the survivor team is outclassed - yes, it will be a steamroll.
The same applies for survivor to killer, if you have someone who can hold their own in chase while the rest of the team knows how to push gens effectively, it will feel like the killer is being "genrushed". You can lose three gens theoretically (I've done it to a clown)
2 minutes and 40 seconds in he's searching for people, my chase lasted 2 minutes and 20 seconds, and all of my survivor teammates were doing separate gens. It's very easy to lose gen pressure when you focus on people who know how to loop well or keep their chase going - Dead By Daylight is a time based game and the easiest way to not focus too much on time is simply to tunnel out a survivor (specifically focusing on the weakest link) and turning the game into a 1v3.
3 -
That makes sense. I guess what I was getting at is that I think people appreciate when I clearly have won the match and then give them an escape. Maybe they feel more like it's generosity at that point when it's clear they're being shown mercy. Or maybe it's clear to your survivors that they're being given an escape, but it's a regional thing?
I have to admit that a killer who just gave everyone two hooks was always refreshing in the past, and I usually appreciated the competition and the followup generosity. If you swing your MMR back up and pull that with a cracked Nurse on me, I'll thank you in the lobby :)
4 -
Maybe the game is so fundamentally broken to the survivor end of things, that all those changes still weren't enough to help the killer? Did you ever think of that? If we're "playing above our skill cap," why do comp killers use these same strategies?
You're right, the game's harder than ever despite the buffs, because for every 1 decent buff killers get, survivors get 2. Gens regress 5% per kick, but they block after 8 kicks. Survivors didn't need that to win. I have no idea what you're talking about with the hooks and pallets. The hook spacing still sucks, and there's a loop around every corner, and not just weak ones either. I called it way ahead of time, btw, that a mere reduction of map size would not equate to more pressure on gens.
You really lost me at the DS use rates. Maybe survivors don't run it as often because they don't need to? Many good survivors will still run it, because it's part of what makes them invincible, but many others are like, "It's so difficult for the killer to down me, I just won't run DS, and will counter tunneling with loop time/gen speed alone." They can do that. And of course, DS simply being in the game forces killers to play around it, because it's so strong. Not very fair, is it?
I don't think multi-thousand hour players like myself are boosted. We're using strategies, effectively, in order to win, because we've found that they're the best, most consistent strategies for winning. That alone takes game knowledge and chase execution. No killer says, "I'm gonna decide to tunnel," and gets tons of wins if they don't even know how to chase well. But a survivor can mess up and get downed, hear that DS is a strong perk, so they have it, mess up and get downed again, and that's a free stun on the killer. That's across the board. Killer is only strong at low level where survivors don't even do gens. They don't take advantage of all they've got, so a perkless, add-onless Pig is just able to demolish them.
I mean seriously, you're downing survivors back to back, beating them out at every loop you can actually do something at, and then 5 gens are done and you've got 5 hooks. You have way less info than the survivors for some reason, literally have to count hook states with coins or something out-of-game. You've got loops like shack and jungle gyms where no matter what direction you come from, the survivor has check spots where they can simply react and get a free lead on you. You've got survivor perks that turn them into Terminator, getting free health states and stuns and instaheals off hook, whereas every single slowdown of yours except No Way Out/Remember Me has been nerfed. Just look at the history of killer nerfs. We've lost so much, not just in terms of power but of build/playstyle diversity.
It's easy to put the burden of "Maybe you're just bad" on the killer, because they're human and make a mistake every once in a while. But if you look at the gameplay loop, the game is built upon survivors making mistakes. They go down in 10 seconds, you probably win. They go down in 60, you probably don't. They run meta perks, you lose. They run useless junk, maybe you win. But the game doesn't take this stuff into mind. What its balance scheme assumes is that the killer is a dominating top player using the best stuff, and the survivors are helpless low levels who don't know what they're doing. I'm sure of that, because every time we go against survivors who play well, who do know what they're doing, it's not an even match but a complete group bullying simulator where the stars have to align for you to win. Obscuring the true flow of the game by saying, "Not all survivors are good" and being forced against bad survivors as you're a really good killer, because of the bad MMR system, that's not balance. That's burying your head in the sand because you don't want to address the real issues.
Just because "the majority" of survivor players can't beat good killers, or just because a majority say that the game's killer sided, that doesn't mean the game is killer sided. You've handheld the bad/mediocre survivors to such an extent that they now expect the game to be molded around them. They don't have any incentive to improve as players, because 1) the killers are so weak they usually don't have to, and 2) a random nerf will soon arrive and then they won't have to deal with whatever killer is giving them trouble anymore. The game is made easy for them, and as a consequence, killers and survivors of equal skill at high level have the worst balance imaginable, literally killers having to fight like their life depends on it while the survivors are chilling, and it'll still be a draw at best anyway. All this skill questioning of the killer players, constantly, stems from people not understanding this stuff.
-2 -
And optimal survivors are 10 times stronger than an optimized killer. What is the best killer player in the world to do against a team who does 5 gens in 4 minutes, who can't be tunneled, camped, or slugged, because their perks and team play have all the bases covered? It doesn't matter how good a killer is at chasing, if they physically can't do anything within the very limited allotted time.
You just don't see stuff like that as often because we have a screwed up MMR system that hides the true balance of the game by forcing mismatches. The reason I complain all the time, despite getting my fair share of killer draws/wins, is because oftentimes those matches were extremely close despite the survivors not playing well at all, or sometimes because I lose and there was nothing I could do simply because the survivors were decent. And then I have to sit here and watch people say, "Killer is turn your brain off mode. No effort required." No, our brains are working overtime, because we don't even get individual hook counters, which survivors do get.
-1 -
I've seen what you're suggesting, and it just doesn't play out like that in a match. Not against good survivors. I'm not better off spreading injures, taking "good chases" while Corrupt is up, than I would be simply tunneling. That's why I stopped running Corrupt, and playing hit and run. You can free up a few pallets so that survivors can't run their later, but how do you know it's the right spot? How do you know the survivors are gonna push that gen later? The truth is you don't have control over where survivors go. And even if you break a pallet or 2 in an area, there's still 2-3 more. You think you can afford all that looping time and the gens are still under your control? No way. You leave a gen for 30 seconds, from zero, and it could be done before you get back. You could check stuff like that more often, but at the cost of commiting to a chase when you need to. The time crunch that killer is under never turns around into an advantage. You're just playing damage control the whole time. And if you lose track of hooks, game over. That right there proves the need to tunnel, against good survivors.
-2 -
I don’t think this is the easiest killer has ever been. That would be the gen kick meta. I do think this is the second most easiest time killer has been. Especially since there are no survivor perks that break the game like old dead hard or mtf
1 -
And he was wrong, because he doesn't understand the game. Your survivor opponents do not become more difficult, skill-wise. The advantage they have, and their ability to capitalize on it, does. You doing better as killer would be getting 12 chases and 4 kills, instead of 4 chases and 4 kills. But for some reason, the game makes it impossible for you to do 12 chases, so you resort to the latter, and that's you capitalizing on an advantageous strategy, not you employing more skill. It's the same thing with what survivors bring. If they're bringing instaheals, they can heal or take an extra hit mid-chase, which they couldn't do with regular medkits. They didn't physically play better, but they'll perform better. But those survivors are hardly called into question of playing above their skill level, since they're bringing the best stuff. No, it's only the killer's inability to beat them that is scrutinized. That's why every single update Peanits was in charge of writing had this air of doublespeak about it, where for example "We're nerfing Pain Res, even though it's at comfortable power level/usage rate to us, because the killer simply* puts the survivor on the scourge hook and knocks a sizeable chunk off the gen, which isn't fun for the survivors."
He disagrees with us on MMR, because he said that's how the game's designed, to supposedly give you challenging opponents. We're in agreement that the MMR system is screwed up. It puts opponents and teammates together who have no place being in the same match. 2 survivors: armed to the teeth with meta perks, other 2 survivors: being in no items then search chests instead of do gens, the killer: armed with meta perks. Hmm, I wonder why the survivors lost? Maybe it's because half of them weren't even trying. But the moment 4 survivors know what they're doing, and go against a killer of equal hours and skill, the killer gets 3 hooks and 0 kills. Shouldn't those conditions instead result in an "ideal" 60% kill rate, a draw?
-3 -
I mean at the highest 2 on average make it out, and 2 die according to statistics. Isn’t that a draw? What’s a draw to you? Should at the highest level if equally skilled sway one way or the other? I’m just asking to see where you head is at, this isn’t a trap on my end. I feel like if the best teams are going against the best killers 2 out is a tie and what would happen on average if it is balanced.
6 -
I... still can't resist... if I see a totem and nobody is hooked, I'm getting my 1,000 bloodpoints. I can't help myself 💀
1 -
If we're trying to force 100% fairness on everyone, it would be 50/50, 2 escape/2 die. But we're talking about 1 side supposedly being the power role, which the other side has to escape* against. Almost always, when the killer gets a draw, the survivors were on the cusp of winning, and not just at the very end, but pretty much the whole match. The killer, if he's playing as well as he can, shouldn't be struggling and under pressure the entire match. And I know that's hard to balance out when you take the other side into account, how well they're playing and what kind of pressure they deserve to be under, etc. So that's probably why the game should be pushed towards skill-based matchmaking, which we don't have.
We have a system that weighs only kills and escapes as to who did well and who didn't. It's easy to see that you can play really well as killer, and get beat out by advantage alone, or play way better as survivor than your teammates, yet you're the one who dies. That's not a lack of skill, that's just what happens. But people have been conditioned to only look at the result to determine skill. I think how well they looped or did gens, or how many hooks the killer got, should be a determiner of skill. But until we have that system, I'm gonna scrutinize the one we've got. And it seems like the way survivors get draws and wins is arbitrary, like no matter how well the killer does, they're just supposed to escape anyway. Look at hatch, a literal free escape, which opens in the case of their team's loss, or a win, just to give survivors more advantage.
-3 -
HUA(heard understood acknowledged). Yeah I absolutely agree that it should move more towards sbmm and your performance vs the one we have now. Bc I personally think very similarly on this topic specifically. I just hope that for survivors evader and lightbringer and weighted heavier than the other emblems when considering skill/performance. What do you think?
0 -
Thought this was gonna be a bit more unbiased but as I read it got more lenient towards survivors have it worse but while In 90% agree with all facts it's also bad for killers as well it's not just survivor or killer I think it's better if they help both sides of the player base as both are in need of work I love the use of actual information on the game I glad you covered the MMR issue as well but believe with both killers and survivors with the right perks or addons the game could be really hell for both sides and even in base game there are killers that are highly map dependent and the decrease of map size isn't the solution to the fact that the killer is unable to to manage to keep up with the 1v4 because of the map and not because of skill and I also believe there are a lot of issues involving slugging as well as if you are killer you can (if you even manage to) knock everyone while not hooking because the survivor is unable to do anything because they are slugged but all in all good take but I prefer if it was more less biased and involved both side's issues
-1 -
sorry for my lack of punctuation a bit in a rush I'll add more to what I'm trying to get across and fix punctuation later
-1 -
MMR barely exists in this game and so long as getting you (or your opponent) into a game is the main priority, it never will. Arguably this is the way it should be because as 2V8 demonstrates, nobody wants to wait more than 10 minutes to play DBD.
I honestly don't think it does much unless you've just installed the game or you've queued up as a 4 man. I suppose it's possible to "boost" yourself as Killer if you bring 4 slowdowns (or perks that disproportionally destroy Solo Q) and as Survivor if you queue with a 3 man that stacked the best items & add-ons with a game plan to slam gens (or they are much better at the game than you are and can save you often / occupy the Killer). In these cases you'll win more often than you "should", but for the rest of us I think MMR is just a roll of the dice. To speed up someone else's queue time, you'll get backfilled into lobbies against opponents you shouldn't be matched with at least as often as you'll get reasonable matches.
I think there are essentially only 2 match-making tiers: A testing bracket for new players (sometimes even this is ignored) and a huge pool full of everybody else.
4 -
It would be a good idea. Survivors would want to get a decent amount of time on generators and in chase, not just do 1 or the other. Them having incentive to want those things, at the cost of being inefficient let's call it, would take a lot of pressure off the killer to get people out as fast as possible. And surely his emblems would be incentivized as well, like the ones for hooking and for keeping gens up as long as possible, which would prompt the devs to make non-tunnel chases and gen defence viable again. I like it.
And thanks for the question about draws and ideal outcomes of a match. I haven't legitimately had to question myself on what I really want in this game... in like forever. It made me have to put those thoughts into words, and that was quite intellectually stimulating.
-2 -
I would honestly like to go back to 1-minute queues for survivor. Yes, it would take longer than seconds, which it's at now. But you at least knew what you were going up against. You'd have equal skill teammates and killer, and assuming you played well, you'd almost always win. That's what we complain about a lot: We get constant sweats as killer, but never enjoy the OPness of survivor because of solos wack matchmaking. And we wouldn't want to be beating killers constantly forever, oh no. Like before, the devs would see that killers, with all their perks, strategies, and efficient play, were still struggling to get 1-2 kills, and would have to buff them. So essentially what we're suggesting they do now is do what they should've done 4 years ago, or whenever MMR was put in, but better late than never.
-1 -
danielmaster87 is cookin'
-1 -
yeah we’re on the same wavelength there, exactly. I feel like I don’t even have to say it out loud, and you get it.Also absolutely the killers emblems should reflect that as well I agree with that because it goes both ways and should feel rewarding. Hooks/gens up over kills should be prioritized and with evader/lightbringer over escapes for sbmm. Both take more game sense in full overall in the grand scheme of things.
Also no problem, happy to help with that 🫡
1 -
Hmm I dunno, I lose two matches and MMR goes "oh, your matches are rough? Here's a 4k hour Nurse main, enjoy" like????
5 -
Counterpoint, survivors have to do this EVERY SINGLE TIME A KILLER IS RELEASED. Not talking about meta mixups etc.
It's not that big of a time investment.0 -
None I considered worthy of mention, besides, I would refer you to the comment above you
-1 -
Except, when survivors did optimize their play, by using BNP's, DH's, DS+Unbreakable, you just didnt like how survivors did it, because it was not fun, and it needed to be changed.
How is this different in any way, shape or form? It isnt.-1 -
I didnt say to lose to settle their MMR, but that they have been able to boost their own MMR (far) beyond what it should have been, because of mechanics.
And no, the softcap doesnt match you with everyone. There still is (some) priority in your own MMR as it looks for players within range. It just quickly starts looking for bigger ranges, both above and below.
The point is, that if players have been relying on ways that boost their MMR, they should expect to lose a lot once the mechanics they rely on are adjusted to no longer be as reliable as they are. Tunnelling shouldnt be reliable at 5 gens, slugging shouldnt be something a killer wants to do unless they have to, hooking should be something they would want to do. And there's 2 solutions to that, which both should be implemented: 1. a punishment system for killer(or reward system for survivor) when survivors remain slugged too long when there are still gens remaining. 2. a reward system for killer to hook. No idea what that doesnt require a massive perk and addon rework, but it should be basekit.-1 -
If none of those changes are worth of mention, then nothing in this game was changed in past 5 years. In reality, you are just cherry picking to promote the narrative.
1 -
BNP is honestly in a very healthy state, it reduces the max charges needed to finish a single gen. Honestly, my main issue is that it doesnt consume the toolbox like a Syringe does. As for toolboxes in general, they are fine and balanced. Blighted rat and crow on blight has more impact on game results than survivors bringing 4 commodius toolboxes. Hyperfocus and Stake-Out are not a problem either, otherwise everyone would be running it. They need to be in the terror radius for 60 seconds to collect enough stacks for stake-out to be consistent and have a BNP to start off the Hyperfocus and a -10 charge to do a single gen in maybe 30 seconds (at the cost of 1 bnp and an additional 60 seconds of charging up stake out, so it was basically a 90 second gen).
And I fully disagree with killers not being able to keep up with survivor strength. As survivors in general have been dropping in strength. Adrenaline doesnt work like it used to do. Unbreakable is easy to avoid. DS is basically non-existant and all anti-tunnel perks are either going to work in your favor if a survivor tries to trigger it on you, or going to be disabled once you let the survivors alone for 10 seconds. There are less pallets, and if there arent, they are weaker overall (as a comparison, Coldwind farm has 1 extra pallet, but went from 10 strong pallets, to 5 strong pallets, 4 medium pallets and 2 weak pallets, which is basically equal to 7.5 strong pallets). So loops are weaker. Gens are closer to each other. Everything is harder to get by for survivors. So survivor strength objectively dropped. Killer strength also objectively went up. The problem is that it feels like survivor strength went up, because the average killer simply faces stronger survivors nowadays.
And the majority of killers SHOULD be able to hold up a 4v1, unless they have been boosted in their MMR. Which is the point of my post. I main Doc at, based on my survivors, relatively high mmr, a killer considered relatively weak, even after his buff, got stronger which was nice, but he's not the greatest. My games against survivors have felt easier over time, the only thing that changed is that word got out that pre-dropping pallets against Doc is strong, so I was forced to bring Fire Up to combat that (which, actually great perk on Doc now, arguably top 5 perks). My games have gotten easier, because I never relied on "boring" strategies. Yes, sometimes there are games I would have won if I tunnelled, sometimes there are games if I slugged at 5 gens instead of letting the second chase go to secure a hook. Problem, I dont like to tunnel or slug, because it decreases my required skill against my opponents. So if I lose 2 games every 10 matches because I didnt slug or tunnel, big whoop, still 80% winrate. Yes, as Doctor, against survivors running BNP, commodius, pre-dropping pallets while I at most run 1 gen regression perk (or 2 gen slowdown perks), still 80% winrate. Sometimes you just have to accept your loss and use that game to find out where you are making mistakes, rather than heavy slugging and tunnelling to try and keep up with players that are simply out of your current league.
Also, slugging is OP (and boring) right now. It applies the same pressure as hooking without having to hook, doesnt have any valid basekit anti-measures (unless you're swf, but 60% of players plays soloq so not an argument), and even if someone happened to bring anti-measures in the form of perks, killers can simply combat it by slugging them again. Slugging is OP and needs a nerf. Personally, basekit tenacity (increased crawling speed and recovering while crawling, not the reduced sounds) and having effectively unlimited self-pickups as long as there are still gens remaining would work. The unlimited self-pickup would force killers to hook as long as there are gens, it would need a tiny tweak so that it cannot be abused against killers like Twins and Oni (a simple mechanic added there is just making them broken and haemorrhaged for 60 seconds so you as a killer know they picked themselves up and can easily track them, then maybe also an additional 20 seconds after fully recovering before you can pick yourself up, so that killers have 50 seconds to finish chase before needing to find the body to hook). And yeah, that would force those killers to run Deerstalker, but tbh, not a problem, because a killer who has a basekit relying on slugging should have perks surrounding slugging, rather than gen regression and gen slowdown.-3 -
Nope, you can simply read the original. The reason I dont consider them worthy of mention, is because the buffs for survivors that I didnt mention were: basekit anti-facecamp (which, didnt really negatively affect killers, especially since it doesnt work when the final gen is gone), basekit BT(which, didnt really negatively affect killers, in fact, it wasnt really a problem for most players, only for people who love to tunnel), buffed chest speeds which again doesnt impact killers negatively, as survivors sitting on chests means they arent sitting on gens.
The killer perk nerfs dont matter, because survivor perks got nerfed too. For every killer perk that got nerfed, I can name 3 survivor perks that got nerfed harder. And yeah, there were some perk central meta's for survivor, like Made For This, but I can point at Thrill of the Hunt or Undying and say the exact same thing. Thrill was meta for shorter, but Undying was meta for much, much longer before it got changed.
I am definitely not cherrypicking, I am simply removing unneccesary conversation, because it does not matter. I described from the very start that I was talking about killers right now, because it mostly is surrounding killers. But it definitely applies to survivors too. Remember the survivors who didnt want Dead Hard nerfed because otherwise they would be tunnelled out? They got boosted by Dead Hard and simply didnt want to deal with the consequences of relying on Dead Hard. And that's a perk, an exhaustion perk nonetheless. You could literally run exhaustion addons and perks to combat the use of Dead Hard. The current situation is a basekit mechanic that is unavoidable and usable every single game. Sure there are some perks that combat it, but they are heavily limited, and even then you have to sacrifice perk slots for a basekit mechanic. Imagine you needed to equip a perk like Pop to be able to kick a gen, instead of being able to kick gens normally. Imagine you needed Bamboozle to be able to vault windows. Perks should ENHANCE basekit mechanics. They shouldnt be REQUIRED to combat basekit mechanics. And no, gen regression perks arent required, plenty of builds and killers that can get you a 4k that dont rely on gen regression at all. If any perk is required for killers right now, I would actually say it's Fire Up, since it increases interactions over time, which I find a very logical to be a basekit thing.-2
