General Discussions
General Discussions
Killer players, what drives you to tunnel, slug, camp and bleedout?
Answers
-
You should decide whether you should tunnel or camp based on CIRCUMSTANCES around you
Finally. I've been saying this in just about every conversation and we finally agree that these are situational tactics.
If you look tho, the person I responded to isn't doing that. They're saying essentially that they always slug because camping and tunneling are always less effective. That's anything but situational. That's always, all the time, in every match: the go-to solution.
The only thing you and I severely disagree on is that I also add "giving multiple survivors things to do at the same time" and you, and many others, all seem to ignore that option. Every tactic is situational, you just aren't using all the tools available to you for some reason and that is odd to me.
The fact that you think DS is hard to counter is also confusing. But I suspect we won't come to any agreement on that, since, from my perspective, it would require you to critically analyze your own gameplay and improve at the game.
1 -
I don't know why they are downvotung you. You are right
2 -
Because having a nuanced and reasonable view on the game is considered bad in this community.
Well, the thread was literally asking why players do certain things, and some people are reducing to "it's easy". I mean, yes, it is less hard to do than playing Mr nice guy, but that implies that there is an incentive structure in the game for it that has always existed, specially for tunneling.
But you know, a lot of people just want to say "killer bad uga buga killer do things evil hurt me", instead of looking into game design.
5 -
some people are reducing to "it's easy"
Being one of those people who said exactly this, and also have explained my position in this and several other posts on these very forums, that, to me, qualifies as a nuanced position.
You also seem to agree that it's at least the "easier" tactic:
I mean, yes, it is less hard to do than playing Mr nice guy,
So which is it? You go off on some tangent about incentives, which is completely irrelevant. If I offered you $100 to not tunnel your next match, that doesn't make it inherently any easier or harder to pull off.
People want to win. And it's literally human nature to take the path of last resistance, or in other words, to use the "easiest" approach to get to that goal. It's on the devs, specifically, to make it so that the "optimal" play style is also fun (for all 5 players in the match) and I feel like they're missing the mark on that in several areas.
Unfortunately, trying to discuss that on these forums tends to be difficult because people are utterly opposed to fixing core problems, and seem to want more and more band aid solutions, either that or simply treating a symptom.
1 -
If a playstyle is easier to execute than the others, or at least less difficult, it is because there is an incentive structure in the game that gives the difficulty difference. Anti tunnel was implemented with basekit BT, and there are many more new and improved tools that make this strategy the hardest it has ever been. That does not mean that tunneling has stopped, killers still do that because the core gameplay establishes a very simple logic: Killing one survivor lowers the survivor team's efficiency.
In that sense, adding base kit BT back in the day was a Band-Aid solution. It was a good change and I agree to that, but it did not resolve tunneling, so in the end it is simply a killer nerf.
If you read my first comment, I did the core gameplay issue that incentives the killers to adopt these playstyles, as I do find it productive to first get the "why" and then go to the proposal.
I right now have ideas on how to change the structure of the game in order to get rid of both tunneling and slugging
Tunneling should be simpler. If 4 alive survivors are more efficient than 3 survivors, make it so that the killer doesn't feel pressure to kill the first one as soon as possible. To that, simply make repairing and healing much slower when all survivors are alive, and than much faster when there are 3, and then even faster when there are 2. Hell, after that, you could even make DS basekit and it wouldn't be impactful since killers wouldn't want to go for the same survivor twice.
Slugging is similar. If hooking a survivor is both riskier, slower, and less rewarding than slugging them, then make hooking actually worth doing. You can make unlimited Unbreakable basekit, but the devs would also have to make some changes so it can't be abused. First, make it so that you can't be stunned by a pallet for at least two seconds after picking a survivor up and regaining control of your character. Yeah, that would kill pallet saves, but it would ensure that survivors wouldn't be able to harass the killer until the downed survivors gets up by itself, and it would also reduce the risk of picking a survivor up. Also, in the same note, make it so that you can avoid a flashbangs by looking at a wall.
Beyond that, making the act of hooking faster would also help killers ditch slugging. Picking a survivor up and the speed which you carry a survivor should be buffed, so that hooking shouldn't be such a momentum breaker.
Finally, if that isn't enough, there should be a reward for killer for hooking a survivor. Pop Goes the Weasel and Pain Resonance were very healthy perks in that aspect, as they reward you for doing you objective. So a basekit PGtW with 15% total regression would help in that aspect, and you could make the perk do an extra 10% so you could get the old 25%.
These changes would fix slugging and tunneling, because you are not only giving good buffs for survivors to counter these strategies (basekit DS and Unbreakable), but you are also making them less optimal by rewarding the killer for hooking and going for multiple survivors in a match.
2 -
Finally. I've been saying this in just about every conversation and we finally agree that these are situational tactics.
glad we finally found a common language, tho this was always what i meant about those strats.
If you look tho, the person I responded to isn't doing that. They're saying essentially that they always slug because camping and tunneling are always less effective. That's anything but situational. That's always, all the time, in every match: the go-to solution.
and they are absolutely wrong, but i think it's the very problem of matchmaking that makes them believe "i have to tunnel/slug to win". Is early 3v1 your best bet to stand a chance and win the match? Yes. Is it always an option you can resort to? No. Deciding to play like "i'm gonna tunnel/slug" right from the start already shows completely wrong mindset killer is coming with into the match. Surely this could work against bad players, but what if they meet actually good players? Then they cry ofc.
The fact that you think DS is hard to counter is also confusing. But I suspect we won't come to any agreement on that, since, from my perspective, it would require you to critically analyze your own gameplay and improve at the game.
i never directly thought it's hard to counter nor i ever had problems playing against it (but again, it's because of skill difference between me and average opponents i get). I'm talking about indirect impact of the match in terms of most wanted resource for killer in this game: time.
DS on it's own without e.g. any anti-slug perk is pretty easy to counter when you don't have well organized team.
All in all, i'm trying to spectate all perks in the game from the perspective of how much time they can waste for killer (survivor perks) and how much they can prolong the match to compensate for wasted time (killer perks).
0 -
Because the game doesn't force me to hook people for them to die, so why would I.
People will die whether they get hooked or not, and it's not like they can pick themselves up anyway. They still need someone to rescue them, so it's faster to just try to get two people on the floor at the same time and then win by default.
It's as easy as thinking "I don't want to lose this game" and just doing it. You don't even need perks or specific killer powers to do it, you can do it by default.
The real question is, what drives people not to do it when the game allows you to do that from the get-go. It's literally your win condition, the hooking is just there for style points more than anything.
-1 -
To be 100% fair, some killers just don't have the pressure to play any other way - like Wraith - because of an outdated kit that hasn't aged well with the game. I play Doctor when playing killer and usually never have to resort to any of those things. The only time I resort to slugging is if survivors were being trolls, and only to secure a 4k with 2 survivors left (because I'm petty).
While the "strategies" are "legit", they definitely take away enjoyment from both sides. I'm expecting things to get worse for killers that are outdated and need updates while good base killers shouldn't be affected by the changes coming.
0 -
Playing honorably is only ever met with harassment, doing the strats for easy wins gets you harassed less.
1 -
None of these these 4 things you've mentioned are an issue in the same way a knife can't stab someone by itself.
Following that line of thinking we could also remove weapons from Killers so they no longer have the authority to harm survivors even if they wanted to. After all we don't want to inconvenience and distract anybody from freely roaming the map and do whatever they please whenever they feel like it.
Consequently, sabotaging hooks could also be removed since no survivor will be hurt, which conveniently also solves the issue of slugging and bleeding out. That suggestion of removing the Killer's weapon because of it being directly linked to the inconvenience of the opposing team single-handedly solved 2 of the mentioned problems.
Maybe we could remove the need to repair generators and just have two powered exit gates that can be opened at the discretion of any player in the trial. In the name of fairness, when killer weapons are removed, survivor's generators should be removed as well, since they are the leverage the survivors have against the killer. How inconvenient.
It kind of seems to me that maybe a little bit of inconvenience here and there is necessary. Why does this remind me of that South Park Episode about "Sarcastaball"?
A man like Gordon Ramsay will use a knife to cut a fish filet while another man like Arthur John Shawcross will use a knife to cut a human filet.
Circumstances will influence people's reasons for doing one thing or another and as circumstances change, reasons also change. Sometimes from one moment to the next. I may be convinced I would never slug in the morning but in the afternoon I repeatedly face survivors that manage to flashlight save and sabotage every single time and I am forced to either surrender the match or the morals I seemed to have had in the morning.
Maybe something made me mad and now I project evil intentions onto that killer that for whatever reason entirely unknown to me decided to "hump" me after he downed me. Next week I am in a great mood and I somehow can't help but laugh at the silly situation of that Leatherface doing that very thing to me after a chase I genuinely enjoyed having.
There certainly is room for improvement in just about every aspect when it comes to DBD and I am faithful that BHVR will handle this in the best way they can. Just like a satisfactory Matchmaking System, we are talking about a very complex topic that can either be handled with ignorance or understanding.
So a big part of BHVRs success depends on BHVRs ability to "ponder their orb", and object to a particular set in their orb are the ideas as they are shared, evaluated and categorized by the community at large and its subsequent branches (Stream Chats, Forums, X, Reddit, Discord, etc.).
There are still very many players who are not part of the active discussion and may even be entirely unaware of these ideas, nonetheless they also hold ideas worthy of consideration, ideas which may be entirely unknown to you yourself. Those ideas are a completely different set of objects which together as a whole evoke an entirely different experience of Dead by Daylight.
Here I Teabag the killer because I wish to make him mad, there I Teabag the killer because we both had the same fun experience at a loop. I can Teabag to express thankfulness after a teammate healed me, or I Teabag to make myself more noticeable to an injured teammate who might be searching for a teammate to heal him.
No matter what my intentions are, if to the opposite side all Teabagging is always toxic then all my attempts to communicate with him will lead to frustration because both needs cannot be met.
TL;DR:
In any case, this post is getting long and to close it out I would like to say that from my experience, a great deal of people have somehow come to agree upon ideas that are A) not of their own, B) an influence to both themselves and those around them, and C) perpetuated by the continuous reinforcement through communal exchange (i.e. echo-chambers such as Stream Chats, Forums, X, Reddit, Discord, etc.)
By examining our ideas we might come to an understanding why we have them, where they come from and of what consequence they are.
-1 -
It is effective way of playing the game. You focus fire with your range units in SC or WC to get enemy unit down ASAP. Same here. Focus fire survivor to be in favourable position.
0 -
Pretty much this, most people choose the path with least resistance. Human nature. The problem in that is the game only functions if there is 5 players. 1 player choosing the easiest way to win at the cost of at least 1 survivor being taken out of the match to possibly more players. Its not a good recipe to get people coming back to play more. The fact there are so many people who dont see the negative side or don't care is insane.
FYI I know that killers deal with swf and bully squads. Whenever I play solo q I try to sabotage bully squads and sweaty swf teams. Because I know how much unfun playing them is. If people wanted this changed I'd totally understand.
Also side note for the people who say the killers job is to kill.... Beyond wrong. The killers job is to chase and the survivors job is to be chased. Look at all mechanics of the game and revolves around chasing. Loops, pallets, windows, perks. Everything else is secondary. It's why when I get in a match with a farming killer I try to force them to actually play the game.
0 -
Chasing them isnt the killer's only job. The killer's job is kill the survivors by "any" means necessary, it says this all the time in the loading screens
-1 -
Because I like to win and if you offer yourself to give free value for my tunnel or camp then I will do it.
0
