When is kindred gonna become default?

thesuicidefox

@Tenebro said:

@thesuicidefox said:
...
Base Kindred is just flat out not necessary. Stop trying to pump up solo to match SWF, that is the worst way to balance the game. Solo is actually quite balanced right now, it's SWF that needs to be taken down a few notches to match it, not the other way around.

You can't take down SWF because there are external factors that, as a dev, you don't control (discord for example). The only thing you can do is to set a common base to start with, buffing the only thing you control: solo plays. On top of that you can begin to balance (for real) the game. What advantages usually have voice comms? Coordination. How do you give such an advantage to solo plays? For me giving something like kindred, bond and empathy as default to survivors is a good starting point. You reduce the gap from SWF quite a bit. And yes, you also reduce the "clueless horror factor" of the game, but after playing this game more than a few hours you loose it anyway, so better having a balanced game. Remember, as survivor, you already see as default (and not as a perk) survivors auras in dying state, or when hooked you see others survs auras, etc. ... this already mine the "clueless horror factor".

Limit 1 instance of a perk per SWF group. PROBLEM SOLVED!! SWF should be focused on team builds anyway, so preventing them from running 4 DS/Adren/UB would go quite a long way.

And before you ask NO it would not affect solo. If you play solo you would have no limits. If you play in a group then you need to share perks. Simple.

HavelmomDaS1

thesuicidefox said:

@Tenebro said:

@thesuicidefox said:
...
Base Kindred is just flat out not necessary. Stop trying to pump up solo to match SWF, that is the worst way to balance the game. Solo is actually quite balanced right now, it's SWF that needs to be taken down a few notches to match it, not the other way around.

You can't take down SWF because there are external factors that, as a dev, you don't control (discord for example). The only thing you can do is to set a common base to start with, buffing the only thing you control: solo plays. On top of that you can begin to balance (for real) the game. What advantages usually have voice comms? Coordination. How do you give such an advantage to solo plays? For me giving something like kindred, bond and empathy as default to survivors is a good starting point. You reduce the gap from SWF quite a bit. And yes, you also reduce the "clueless horror factor" of the game, but after playing this game more than a few hours you loose it anyway, so better having a balanced game. Remember, as survivor, you already see as default (and not as a perk) survivors auras in dying state, or when hooked you see others survs auras, etc. ... this already mine the "clueless horror factor".

Limit 1 instance of a perk per SWF group. PROBLEM SOLVED!! SWF should be focused on team builds anyway, so preventing them from running 4 DS/Adren/UB would go quite a long way.

And before you ask NO it would not affect solo. If you play solo you would have no limits. If you play in a group then you need to share perks. Simple.

But you miss the point that the meta is genrush. And you don't need that much perks for this meta. All the perks you mentioned like DS and adrenalin are perks to make it just even more annoying and carries bad swf teams 

ad19970

@Poweas said:

@ad19970 said:

@Blueberry said:

@Nickenzie said:
TangledNoodles said:

I remember the devs saying that it could be built in instead of being a perk at some point. It would be nice because having a full lobby with solo people is a mess, and I'm pretty sure no one likes to get to second stage or end up dying on the first hook because people don't know if someone is going for the save or not.

@weirdkid5 and I have been talking about how to close the SWF and solo Q survivors gap. We agreed that not having Kindred as baseline is the better option since the game is based on not knowing everything. However, I wouldn't be opposed to small details to help the experience of solo Q survivors.

The game honestly needs a seperate Casual/Ranked mode and only allow SWF in Casual mode. That's probably the best fix for the problem. Only real question is if the player base is strong enough to be split.

I wouldn't mind this solution, but I honestly doubt that would work. Also how to balance the game? Balance killers around solo survivors, which would mean a slight nerf to Hillbilly and Spirit and a somewhat bigger nerf to Nurse, could work. Balancing would be more important for ranked, but then what killer would want to play casual?

Why'd you forget Hag

She could maybe use a very, very small nerf as well

Tenebro

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
But you miss the point that the meta is genrush. And you don't need that much perks for this meta. All the perks you mentioned like DS and adrenalin are perks to make it just even more annoying and carries bad swf teams 

This ^
You don't need perks at all to genrush.

KiraElijah

I’ll leave this here..

Solo < Killers < SWF < Nurse

Also, what’s the problem with Kindred?

GrootDude

KiraElijah said:

I’ll leave this here..

Solo < Killers < SWF < Nurse

Also, what’s the problem with Kindred?

I play solo and win most of my games. This might just be your experience.

HavelmomDaS1

TreemanXD said:

KiraElijah said:

I’ll leave this here..

Solo < Killers < SWF < Nurse

Also, what’s the problem with Kindred?

I play solo and win most of my games. This might just be your experience.

Hatch escape doesn't really mean you won. You got the escape gifted. And that's like always the case if I play killer against solos. Either 4k or 3k and last gets hatch.

Or do you count pipping as win?

GrootDude

HavelmomDaS1 said:

TreemanXD said:

KiraElijah said:

I’ll leave this here..

Solo < Killers < SWF < Nurse

Also, what’s the problem with Kindred?

I play solo and win most of my games. This might just be your experience.

Hatch escape doesn't really mean you won. You got the escape gifted. And that's like always the case if I play killer against solos. Either 4k or 3k and last gets hatch.

Or do you count pipping as win?

HavelmomDaS1 said:

TreemanXD said:

KiraElijah said:

I’ll leave this here..

Solo < Killers < SWF < Nurse

Also, what’s the problem with Kindred?

I play solo and win most of my games. This might just be your experience.

Hatch escape doesn't really mean you won. You got the escape gifted. And that's like always the case if I play killer against solos. Either 4k or 3k and last gets hatch.

Or do you count pipping as win?

I never mentioned hatch, but I mean exit gate escape.

GrootDude

IMO three or four survivors have to escape.

GrootDude

IMO three or four survivors have to escape.

TangledNoodles

@HavelmomDaS1 said:

This lol. Just because you left your teammates hig hand dry and you camped the hatch doesn't rly mean much.

HavelmomDaS1

TreemanXD said:

HavelmomDaS1 said:

TreemanXD said:

KiraElijah said:

I’ll leave this here..

Solo < Killers < SWF < Nurse

Also, what’s the problem with Kindred?

I play solo and win most of my games. This might just be your experience.

Hatch escape doesn't really mean you won. You got the escape gifted. And that's like always the case if I play killer against solos. Either 4k or 3k and last gets hatch.

Or do you count pipping as win?

HavelmomDaS1 said:

TreemanXD said:

KiraElijah said:

I’ll leave this here..

Solo < Killers < SWF < Nurse

Also, what’s the problem with Kindred?

I play solo and win most of my games. This might just be your experience.

Hatch escape doesn't really mean you won. You got the escape gifted. And that's like always the case if I play killer against solos. Either 4k or 3k and last gets hatch.

Or do you count pipping as win?

I never mentioned hatch, but I mean exit gate escape.

But alone, or with one more mate. No way you get out 2+ survivors through the exit gates constitently playing solo Q (unless the other 3 mates of you are SWF and you are not aware of)

GrootDude

HavelmomDaS1 said:

TreemanXD said:

HavelmomDaS1 said:

TreemanXD said:

KiraElijah said:

I’ll leave this here..

Solo < Killers < SWF < Nurse

Also, what’s the problem with Kindred?

I play solo and win most of my games. This might just be your experience.

Hatch escape doesn't really mean you won. You got the escape gifted. And that's like always the case if I play killer against solos. Either 4k or 3k and last gets hatch.

Or do you count pipping as win?

HavelmomDaS1 said:

TreemanXD said:

KiraElijah said:

I’ll leave this here..

Solo < Killers < SWF < Nurse

Also, what’s the problem with Kindred?

I play solo and win most of my games. This might just be your experience.

Hatch escape doesn't really mean you won. You got the escape gifted. And that's like always the case if I play killer against solos. Either 4k or 3k and last gets hatch.

Or do you count pipping as win?

I never mentioned hatch, but I mean exit gate escape.

But alone, or with one more mate. No way you get out 2+ survivors through the exit gates constitently playing solo Q (unless the other 3 mates of you are SWF and you are not aware of)

I never know what they are but I’m solo

thesuicidefox

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
But you miss the point that the meta is genrush. And you don't need that much perks for this meta. All the perks you mentioned like DS and adrenalin are perks to make it just even more annoying and carries bad swf teams

Ya... hence why it makes sense to limit those perks for SWF. If they are limited then they can't abuse stacking.

And you can gen rush just fine as solo. It doesn't need buffs, because then it breaks the game like SWF does. Solo should be left as it is, SWF is the problem and needs changing.

MegaWaffle

@TreemanXD said:
Or you could just run kindred....

Wait you mean people can use a perk that does exactly what its intended to do instead of complaining it needs to be baseline?

MIND BLOWN!

P.S: I'm not making fun of you just the people that want every possible bit of information spoon fed to them.

GrootDude

MegaWaffle said:

@TreemanXD said:
Or you could just run kindred....

Wait you mean people can use a perk that does exactly what its intended to do instead of complaining it needs to be baseline?

MIND BLOWN!

P.S: I'm not making fun of you just the people that want every possible bit of information spoon fed to them.

I knew what you meant.

Tenebro

@thesuicidefox said:

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
But you miss the point that the meta is genrush. And you don't need that much perks for this meta. All the perks you mentioned like DS and adrenalin are perks to make it just even more annoying and carries bad swf teams

Ya... hence why it makes sense to limit those perks for SWF. If they are limited then they can't abuse stacking.

And you can gen rush just fine as solo. It doesn't need buffs, because then it breaks the game like SWF does. Solo should be left as it is, SWF is the problem and needs changing.

You can't change SWF because you have no control on it. Any change on that front is a lost battle. Buffing solo is much more safe. Obviously, after the change, killers should be balanced too, so don't compare to the current "killer vs swf" state. Imagine like if you balance killers only around swf (easier task to do for devs).

HavelmomDaS1

thesuicidefox said:

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
But you miss the point that the meta is genrush. And you don't need that much perks for this meta. All the perks you mentioned like DS and adrenalin are perks to make it just even more annoying and carries bad swf teams

Ya... hence why it makes sense to limit those perks for SWF. If they are limited then they can't abuse stacking.

And you can gen rush just fine as solo. It doesn't need buffs, because then it breaks the game like SWF does. Solo should be left as it is, SWF is the problem and needs changing.

Genrush of swf is superior to solo. Just imagine this scenario: someone gets hooked. Noone knows who's saving or not. Noone even knows if the killer camps or not. Everyone leaves the gens to go for the unhook wasting time instead on beeing on gens. With kindred basekit or SWF this won't happen 

GrootDude

HavelmomDaS1 said:

thesuicidefox said:

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
But you miss the point that the meta is genrush. And you don't need that much perks for this meta. All the perks you mentioned like DS and adrenalin are perks to make it just even more annoying and carries bad swf teams

Ya... hence why it makes sense to limit those perks for SWF. If they are limited then they can't abuse stacking.

And you can gen rush just fine as solo. It doesn't need buffs, because then it breaks the game like SWF does. Solo should be left as it is, SWF is the problem and needs changing.

Genrush of swf is superior to solo. Just imagine this scenario: someone gets hooked. Noone knows who's saving or not. Noone even knows if the killer camps or not. Everyone leaves the gens to go for the unhook wasting time instead on beeing on gens. With kindred basekit or SWF this won't happen 

Like I said before “or you could just run kindred” that is the solution.

GrootDude

HavelmomDaS1 said:

TreemanXD said:

KiraElijah said:

I’ll leave this here..

Solo < Killers < SWF < Nurse

Also, what’s the problem with Kindred?

I play solo and win most of my games. This might just be your experience.

Hatch escape doesn't really mean you won. You got the escape gifted. And that's like always the case if I play killer against solos. Either 4k or 3k and last gets hatch

Whoever said anything about hatch? I don’t consider hatch escape a win.

HavelmomDaS1

TreemanXD said:

HavelmomDaS1 said:

thesuicidefox said:

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
But you miss the point that the meta is genrush. And you don't need that much perks for this meta. All the perks you mentioned like DS and adrenalin are perks to make it just even more annoying and carries bad swf teams

Ya... hence why it makes sense to limit those perks for SWF. If they are limited then they can't abuse stacking.

And you can gen rush just fine as solo. It doesn't need buffs, because then it breaks the game like SWF does. Solo should be left as it is, SWF is the problem and needs changing.

Genrush of swf is superior to solo. Just imagine this scenario: someone gets hooked. Noone knows who's saving or not. Noone even knows if the killer camps or not. Everyone leaves the gens to go for the unhook wasting time instead on beeing on gens. With kindred basekit or SWF this won't happen 

Like I said before “or you could just run kindred” that is the solution.

So, you basically run one less perk compared swf. One perk you could use to extend the chase or lose the killer. Therefore you get caught quicker and your team has less time on gens. Nope, it's not the same.

GrootDude

So you are getting caught quicker because you run one less perk? Maybe it’s just that you aren’t very good at chases?

Saint_Ukraine

@WatchBloodRain said:
I've been running kindred recently, doesnt prevent everyone running to me or letting me get to 2nd stage, I need to get higher teir I'm guessing 

tier 2 is good enough, as it shows everyone each other's auras, whereas tier 1 only shows 1 person, and tier 3 shows if the killer is within a certain range of the survivor.

HavelmomDaS1

TreemanXD said:

So you are getting caught quicker because you run one less perk? Maybe it’s just that you aren’t very good at chases?

So, you wanna say perks doesn't matter for chases? Lol k, bye with your logic xD

thesuicidefox

@Tenebro said:

@thesuicidefox said:

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
But you miss the point that the meta is genrush. And you don't need that much perks for this meta. All the perks you mentioned like DS and adrenalin are perks to make it just even more annoying and carries bad swf teams

Ya... hence why it makes sense to limit those perks for SWF. If they are limited then they can't abuse stacking.

And you can gen rush just fine as solo. It doesn't need buffs, because then it breaks the game like SWF does. Solo should be left as it is, SWF is the problem and needs changing.

You can't change SWF because you have no control on it. Any change on that front is a lost battle. Buffing solo is much more safe. Obviously, after the change, killers should be balanced too, so don't compare to the current "killer vs swf" state. Imagine like if you balance killers only around swf (easier task to do for devs).

Yes you can change SWF by IMPOSING LIMITS ON THEM! What a concept?

Buffing solo would just unbalance the only balanced part of the game. That is ass-backwards game design. You don't buff the balance part to make it broken, you nerf the broken part to make it balanced. To say they have no control over SWF because comms is honestly quite stupid.

Then you want to buff killers too? So basically do twice the work it would take to simply nerf SWF? Because that makes sense SMH

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
Genrush of swf is superior to solo. Just imagine this scenario: someone gets hooked. Noone knows who's saving or not. Noone even knows if the killer camps or not. Everyone leaves the gens to go for the unhook wasting time instead on beeing on gens. With kindred basekit or SWF this won't happen 

Ya so why make Kindred base kit? Basically you are making SWF type gen rush the norm at this point. It makes way more sense to limit SWF in some capacity than.

HavelmomDaS1

thesuicidefox said:

@Tenebro said:

@thesuicidefox said:

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
But you miss the point that the meta is genrush. And you don't need that much perks for this meta. All the perks you mentioned like DS and adrenalin are perks to make it just even more annoying and carries bad swf teams

Ya... hence why it makes sense to limit those perks for SWF. If they are limited then they can't abuse stacking.

And you can gen rush just fine as solo. It doesn't need buffs, because then it breaks the game like SWF does. Solo should be left as it is, SWF is the problem and needs changing.

You can't change SWF because you have no control on it. Any change on that front is a lost battle. Buffing solo is much more safe. Obviously, after the change, killers should be balanced too, so don't compare to the current "killer vs swf" state. Imagine like if you balance killers only around swf (easier task to do for devs).

Yes you can change SWF by IMPOSING LIMITS ON THEM! What a concept?

Buffing solo would just unbalance the only balanced part of the game. That is ass-backwards game design. You don't buff the balance part to make it broken, you nerf the broken part to make it balanced. To say they have no control over SWF because comms is honestly quite stupid.

Then you want to buff killers too? So basically do twice the work it would take to simply nerf SWF? Because that makes sense SMH

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
Genrush of swf is superior to solo. Just imagine this scenario: someone gets hooked. Noone knows who's saving or not. Noone even knows if the killer camps or not. Everyone leaves the gens to go for the unhook wasting time instead on beeing on gens. With kindred basekit or SWF this won't happen 

Ya so why make Kindred base kit? Basically you are making SWF type gen rush the norm at this point. It makes way more sense to limit SWF in some capacity than.

Exactly Mr obvious, if genrush is norm for solo and swf, devs can go and just buff every killer without holding back and having fear to destroy the solo experience.
U can't nerf swf, voice communication is the strongest tool they have and devs CAN'T nerf discord. Even if they would nerf SWF so they only can use one perk and start injured, they will still stomp the killer and will be still better than solos with 4 meta perks and fully healed. That's just basic knowledge you get after playing enough.

thesuicidefox

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
Exactly Mr obvious, if genrush is norm for solo and swf, devs can go and just buff every killer without holding back and having fear to destroy the solo experience.
U can't nerf swf, voice communication is the strongest tool they have and devs CAN'T nerf discord. Even if they would nerf SWF so they only can use one perk and start injured, they will still stomp the killer and will be still better than solos with 4 meta perks and fully healed. That's just basic knowledge you get after playing enough.

No what you are asking is that they ruin the part of the game that actually works. SWF can be nerfed by imposing limits. Buffing solo and then buffing killers would just destroy the core experience. Not to mention that no amount of buffing killers would balance them against SWF. It would just make solo need even MORE buffs to compensate, and then it's a never ending series of buff to solo/buff to killer. That's dumb. I can't fathom how you would want to break the actual balanced part of the game just for the sake of SWF. It makes way more sense to nerf SWF in some way, even if it's not perfectly balanced it's better than constantly changing the game.

HavelmomDaS1

thesuicidefox said:

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
Exactly Mr obvious, if genrush is norm for solo and swf, devs can go and just buff every killer without holding back and having fear to destroy the solo experience.
U can't nerf swf, voice communication is the strongest tool they have and devs CAN'T nerf discord. Even if they would nerf SWF so they only can use one perk and start injured, they will still stomp the killer and will be still better than solos with 4 meta perks and fully healed. That's just basic knowledge you get after playing enough.

No what you are asking is that they ruin the part of the game that actually works. SWF can be nerfed by imposing limits. Buffing solo and then buffing killers would just destroy the core experience. Not to mention that no amount of buffing killers would balance them against SWF. It would just make solo need even MORE buffs to compensate, and then it's a never ending series of buff to solo/buff to killer. That's dumb. I can't fathom how you would want to break the actual balanced part of the game just for the sake of SWF. It makes way more sense to nerf SWF in some way, even if it's not perfectly balanced it's better than constantly changing the game.

I say it again and for the last time:

VOICE COMMUNICATION IS THE STRONGEST TOOL SURVIVORS CAN HAVE!!!
No matter how many limits you put for SWF's, they will be still much much stronger than solo survivors. Either find a way to block voice communication (which will never happen, devs don't have the power and people will always find a way around it) or just accept it if you really want a balanced game. Period.

thesuicidefox

@HavelmomDaS1 said:
VOICE COMMUNICATION IS THE STRONGEST TOOL SURVIVORS CAN HAVE!!!
No matter how many limits you put for SWF's, they will be still much much stronger than solo survivors. Either find a way to block voice communication (which will never happen, devs don't have the power and people will always find a way around it) or just accept it if you really want a balanced game. Period.

Exactly so buffing solo won't fix the problem as much as it just breaks the balance that is already there. If you buff solo survivor you have to buff killers. If you buff killers, you have to buff solo survivors AGAIN because SWF is still too good. It creates a runaway power problem until you end up with a game where everything is OP and that's not actually balance believe it or not. If you play an FPS and start everyone with the most absolute powerful weapon in the game (eg. Rocket Launcher in Halo), on paper that's "balanced" but you sacrifice the core design of the game to do it. Playing Halo where everyone has RL is a fun offshoot of the normal game, but it'd be quite awful if that were the normal game. The game just becomes a chaotic mess where skill really doesn't matter. That's what you get by going the route of "buff everything to match SWF". It's an impossible task that ends up ruining the game.

Like, Nurse is the most powerful killer in the game but in some ways she breaks the core design of the game and is therefore OP in a sense. That means if you want to make other killers viable Nurse SHOULD NOT BE THE GOALPOST TO AIM FOR. By doing that you just make every killer ridiculously OP, and then need to buff survivors to compensate. It makes WAY more sense to aim for killers to be somewhere around Billy (or maybe even a bit weaker than Billy) or even nerf the Nurse because you're not getting that runaway power effect. You have a reasonable goal for balance where the game's core design still means something.

KiraElijah

@MegaWaffle said:

@TreemanXD said:
Or you could just run kindred....

Wait you mean people can use a perk that does exactly what its intended to do instead of complaining it needs to be baseline?

MIND BLOWN!

P.S: I'm not making fun of you just the people that want every possible bit of information spoon fed to them.

No wE nEEd baSELiNE KIndrED

NightmareReborn

@JanTheMan said:
Another thing on the list that the devs promised.

Behind DS, Freddy, endgame, etc.

They didn't promise this. It was just a suggestion they had, but I guess they listened to the backlash and didn't add it.

TigerKirby215

Even though Kindred isn't a "powerful" perk it's still very good and very useful in solo play. I wouldn't want to see Kindred added on default but if Killers would be revealed near hooked Survivors that could be helpful to reduce camping.

BigBubs

Nah all the crybaby killer mains will riot man , the devs can't do that.

GrootDude

I play survivor more and agree you should just run the perk if you want it.