So you want to TRULY SOLVE Camping? Slaying DBD's oldest Monsters.
It is possible
This is going to be a weird thread. I will suggest something and you will likely find it ridiculous. After some explanation you start understanding how it truly solves camping, but you still find it ridiculous, but this time you may start to like it.
Mathematics
Sometimes a solution is just perfect. Take the parabola;
Do you want to know what the highest point of the parabola is?; there is only 1 perfect answer. In this case it's 5.
Well... that was easy! Now all we have to do is discuss if we actually wanted the highest number! Could it be true that we'd be able to do the same thing with camping? Let's give it a try;
The core variables of camping
Something about the hooking mechanic must be causing the camping... but what? These are the variables related to camping:
-Hooking Phases
-Phase time
-Guaranteed survivor location information
Hooking Phases
Now, Hooking Phases is more something that has to do with tunneling. After all, we know why people tunnel; It's because the first and 2nd hook achieve nothing. Trying to get a 3rd hook as fast as possible is one of the main ways of damaging and often nullifying a team's efficiency.
We already know how to solve that one;
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/34870/solution-to-the-death-efficiency-problem-solving-the-games-biggest-issue/p1
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/43554/the-future-of-dbd/p1
But since removing this to 1 hooking phase clearly doesn't resolve camping, it's not what we are looking for.
Phase time
Phase time simply is the 60 seconds that it takes from a phase to progress to the next phase. It is this single factor that is completely responsible for all the frustration that people have experienced as a result for camping. Decreasing the timer (120 normally) to 30, then camping is close to being AT ITS WORST. Increasing the timer, makes camping less of a problem; a 300 timer would effectively kill off camping even in the lower ranks, and an non existent timer would nullify all frustration with "unfair" camping.
The guilty variable!
So.. So.. wait.. hole-upaminite...
So what will happen if we remove this...
Well... then people can hang infinitely on hooks!
but... hole-upaminite...
How will they enter a second hooking phase?
They don't! They have to be unhooked and hooked again to enter the next hooking phase!
but... hole-upaminite...
Why would I ever unhook a teammate then, if unhooking them is the only way they can die on a hook?
We simply make it so that if all living survivors are hooked at the same time, they get sacrificed and go through the animation! This is the key to making it all work.
but... but... hole-upaminite...
Surely this will not work as intended somehow?
Here is an analysis:
1 Someone gets downed and hooked. Your team is now down 1 member in efficiency, but you can choose to save that teammate however you want.
2 The killer cannot stay at the hook, or else everyone will just finish the generators before attempting a save.
3 The killer can no longer play defensive. That is a positive and didn't fit the role of killer anyhow! But in this case, it's only due to them not being able to utilise their strength they previously had, which we will need to factor in at a later point.
4 So the killer, after hooking, will have to look for other survivors. If he downs the next, he'll have 2 people hooked.
5 Survivors are still motivated to rescue their team as fast as possible, because having 1 survivor continuously rescue one of the three hooked people in a cycle gets less generator progression done while the hooking stages progress, than having 1 survivor hooked; You want to have as minimal of an amount of players hooked as a survivor and unhook as quick as you can, but no longer are you forced to do this if the killer is nearby.
but... hole-upaminite...
So there are a few things that also need to be addressed as a result of this, right?
Now we know that all irritation regarding camping; unsafe unhooks, game-throwing rescues are all the result of this one single variable, we'll cover the consequences and appropriate response to eliminating such a variable;
What needs to be done in response to solving camping.
There are a couple of issues that need addressing; (every individual issue is addressed under the orange headlines)
-Compensation for the otherwise killer-nerf
-Slugging
-Adjustment in perks and mechanics
-Open Gate Camping
Compensation for the otherwise killer-nerf
So what did we just do? We "forced" killers to play the Tru3Ta1ent way; the fun way. But that is mainly the fun way for survivors. What if the killer likes winning?
Well that was the problem originally. The winning strategy for a killer was never to spread their havoc across survivors, for the reason that hooking phases achieve little; only the 3rd one does! This made the un fun strategy the META for killers; to tunnel or to slug, which is of course the fun way for killers.
We want to achieve harmony. We want the killers winning strategy to match the survivor's fun strategy. This means 1 thing; we eliminate that which was previously the un fun winning strategy, and buff the Tru3Ta1ent way.
Since balance is relative, there are millions of ways we can compensate for their restrictions on un fun opportunities and replace them with healthy and new opportunities.
To not cover it all here, I'll leave a few links down here below, but one thing we can definitely use to re-establish balance for the killer are the Mechanics that also help to solve death-efficiency and is mentioned in the first link;
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/34870/solution-to-the-death-efficiency-problem-solving-the-games-biggest-issue/p1
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/43554/the-future-of-dbd/p1
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/39771/bloodwarden-for-free-on-every-killer/p1
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/41993/increasing-the-killer-mastery-cap-by-offering-them-more-choice/p1
Any other community suggestions that built on this eliminated hooking timer or is helpful in shifting the tides is welcome in the comments!
It is mandated for solving the Camping Problem in this manner that it is not blindly implemented without any compensating change, as this would otherwise heavily hurt the overall balance between the 2 factions.
Slugging
Slugging as an un fun experience for plenty survivors was a beacon of hope to killers that found it unfair that even if they downed a survivor, they'd have to sometimes walk about 10 second with them on their shoulder, resulting in nearly half a free generator for the opposing team... and to do this 12 times?!
After all, slugging was the only way you'd be able to take a 4 generator long poo and still have a chance at getting 4 kills;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbHYvzijY6I
With us assuming killers to be significantly weaker as a result, we cannot have a system in place that circumvents our assumed weaker killer.
With the philosophy in mind that survivors should be more self-sufficient as in; "Nobody likes to lose before they are dead", we too grant the ability to recover from the dying state, and lower the bleed-out timer significantly based on how many survivors are alive. (More survivors alive = lower bleed-out rate).
This demands us to also address the sabotaging issue, but to not cover too much here, such a thing will be covered in a separate post.
All and all you need to know that if we solve camping and tunneling, we first have to eliminate or weaken slugging.
Adjustment in perks and mechanics
Although it isn't too hard, there would need to be simple adjustments to:
-Emblems related to hooking.
-Perks, like Deliverance, Slippery Meat, Monstrous Shrine.
-Due to slugging adjustments: Perks, like Unbreakable.
-The luck mechanic
-Pressing the button repeatedly in the 2nd hooking phase.
The exact way that would be most enjoyable/preferable is uncertain and not absolute, so those will be left out of this post.
Open Gate Camping.
There is only 1 time where you'd consider camping and that is when the gates are open. When all other survivors leave, the hooked person will be sacrificed.
If they decide to stay, then they can keep attempting the save until 1 person dies in general. This is slightly unfair towards the killer. Giving the killer more control in the end-game by eliminating safe-zones may just be enough to allow the killer to hold a position of strength when the survivors are too obvious with their strategies;
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/39771/bloodwarden-for-free-on-every-killer/p1
End Note
What I find remarkable is that by eliminating exactly the variable that turns camping into an issue, we are sort of compelled to address other issues that exist in the game, such as;
-The Death-Efficiency issue (+ The Self-Sufficiency Issue)
-The Exit Gate Safe-Zone issue
-The button press in 2nd hooking phase issue, which has been brought up multiple times and gained awareness of the Devs.
-The slugging issue;
-The "fun-play-style-for-the-killer" issue.
and all that can come from simply eliminating 1 variable? That surely is impressive (:
I invite you to play around with this idea;
What will happen when you eliminate this single variable of hooking-bar progression. Keep playing it back and forward. Imagine how you'd unhook, imagine how you'd behave as the killer.
The longer you play around with this, the sooner you realise that the initial premise is true; the one and only variable that caused 100+ threads full of complaints regarding camping is all caused by 1 variable.
This does sound like a ridiculous suggestion, and it even still does to me. There'll be a lot of times where you'll have to hole-upaminite, but the longer you think about it, the less sane it will start to sound.
Thank you for reading!
Comments
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TL;DR
1 Variable is guilty for all frustrating camping, unsafe unhooking and game-throwing of that nature; it's the fact there's a bar that makes you progress to the next phase. On first sight it's not obviously how damaging something of such nature is, but we can solve it by completely removing that timer, effectively killing camping as a valid concept, making it so that you can only progress to next phases by either being saved and hooked again, or by having all living survivors being hooked resulting into their sacrifice.
The change of eliminating such a crucial variable also forces to also address separate issues that are unresolved. One of which are; Slugging, The new killer-versus-survivor balance, adjustments to perks/luck/hook-related-emblems, Open Gate camping and indirectly safe-zones.
All is covered in more detail in the OP.
4 -
I get your approach to the problem but there are several problems with this idea.
By removing the time limit, you take away all the time pressure from survivors, which is part of the "truetalent" way too btw. They dont need to care, knowing that their friend is perfectly fine on hook. At the moment by hooking you take 1 survivor out of the game and force another one (or even multiple in case of non swf) to go for an unhook. By elimitating the time limit, you eliminate the second part.
Sure this could all be balanced out with some hefty killer buffs, but well........
Then there are also other problems, what about randoms that simpyl dont save you. Or what if the killer camps anyway? You can create a hostage situation really fast this way and survivors heavily disliked the slugging meta because they were forced to watch the game while bleeding out on the floor. The same will happen on hooks with such an idea, survivors being on hook for 5 minutes straight because noone comes.
In the end you have to realize that BHVR is even scared of changing little parts of the game such as DS or hatch. Such a change would drastically change the whole game...... (maybe for the better, maybe not)
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Now I can agree with a new sacraficial system (honestly just do gens but a change or at least a test for something new wouldn't hurt)...... don't mess with slugging ----> it's a way for killers to slow the game down not many even use the tactic and because you use zubat (some one who has nearly 6000 hours in the game really?) Doesn't mean it needs nerf or change because camping is changed
0 -
All your concerns are already covered in the OP (:
By removing the time limit, you take away all the time pressure from survivors, which is part of the "truetalent" way too btw. They dont need to care, knowing that their friend is perfectly fine on hook. At the moment by hooking you take 1 survivor out of the game and force another one (or even multiple in case of non swf) to go for an unhook. By elimitating the time limit, you eliminate the second part.
This was my thought at first when playing around with the idea; What reason do people have to save me? Without the time limit, we surely must have broken that incentive?
The answer, however still appears to be No, and it still appears to be; Save someone as fast as you CAN, because if you don't save 1 teammate, the 2nd will be downed. Now 2 people are hanging. What now? The killer is already working on the 3rd. 1 more step results into all 4 of you dying and nobody is booking any more progress. That is the impressive part about it!
Then there are also other problems, what about randoms that simpyl dont save you. Or what if the killer camps anyway? You can create a hostage situation really fast this way and survivors heavily disliked the slugging meta because they were forced to watch the game while bleeding out on the floor. The same will happen on hooks with such an idea, survivors being on hook for 5 minutes straight because noone comes.
As covered in the 2nd part under "slugging", we eliminate slugging in it's current state as to make it no longer a viable way of killing.
I invite you to think through this one again. It really struck me as deficient the first few times thinking through it, but it managed to keep surprising me.
In the end you have to realize that BHVR is even scared of changing little parts of the game such as DS or hatch. Such a change would drastically change the whole game...... (maybe for the better, maybe not)
They could try a version in which they simply set the hook time to 10000 seconds and tell each other not to slug as to experiment with whether this would give a satisfying effect. When all 4 are hooked at the same time, they pretend to be dead. It's a really easy low-labour experiment for them, to see if it give a desired result.
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@Bravo0413 said:
Now I can agree with a new sacraficial system (honestly just do gens but a change or at least a test for something new wouldn't hurt)...... don't mess with slugging ----> it's a way for killers to slow the game down not many even use the tactic and because you use zubat (some one who has nearly 6000 hours in the game really?) Doesn't mean it needs nerf or change because camping is changedIt's about how you look at it. Slugging is a vital strategy, not that it is really healthy game-design, it avoids an otherwise terrible main way for killing, which hasn't been balanced properly because of such an unequal learning curve.
At low ranks, survivors are worse than their killer counterparts with the same amount of hours, meaning that survivors need to be "OP" in order to "Balance" the game. In order for killers to compensate for survivors "having to be OP", they try to avoid the main way of killing with whatever methods they can. Slugging is the manifestation of that.
I don't see it as a problem to remove slugging as a viable way of killing everybody, if we fix the main way through which killers can kill.
I only see removing slugging as a problem when the learning curve is unequal and killers have no way to compensate for an otherwise broken state of the game due to their main route of killing begin insufficient.1 -
I went though most of it... I sort of petered out on it when I realized a couple of things.
One that was mentioned above about not having a time limit. People not being saved and having to sit on the hook the whole match, in the hopes to be saved at the end or not. Not fun.
One other issue is just... It doesn't stop tunneling. I could just pretend I'm going off to find someone and if a survivor goes in to save.. I come right back and tunnel the other down. Except this time, I was far enough away from the hooked survivor to not lose emblem points. My tunneling is now a camping mind game that makes me more efficient at tunneling.
It isn't a bad idea, but I think it wouldn't end up turning out the way you wanted. There is no incentive to go save the survivor at all when there is no time pressure to do so. Why bother? Especially if the killer starts patrolling and not really looking for anyone. So this basically would punish the survivor who got hooked, by sitting on the hook for over 5 minutes only not to get saved in the end, cause the killer ran up after 5 gens are done and hard core camps them in the end.
That would be the worst as a survivor.. to sit there on the hook the whole match.. People probably would start DC'ing if they were on the hook for 2 minutes and still didn't see anyone coming over to save them. Plus factor in the low BP they would get... Why even stay at all if you know you got hooked in the first minute and your punishment is now, sit on hook for 5 minutes and get no points.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@MasterAll your concerns are already covered in the OP (:
By removing the time limit, you take away all the time pressure from survivors, which is part of the "truetalent" way too btw. They dont need to care, knowing that their friend is perfectly fine on hook. At the moment by hooking you take 1 survivor out of the game and force another one (or even multiple in case of non swf) to go for an unhook. By elimitating the time limit, you eliminate the second part.
This was my thought at first when playing around with the idea; What reason do people have to save me? Without the time limit, we surely must have broken that incentive?
The answer, however still appears to be No, and it still appears to be; Save someone as fast as you CAN, because if you don't save 1 teammate, the 2nd will be downed. Now 2 people are hanging. What now? The killer is already working on the 3rd. 1 more step results into all 4 of you dying and nobody is booking any more progress. That is the impressive part about it!
Then there are also other problems, what about randoms that simpyl dont save you. Or what if the killer camps anyway? You can create a hostage situation really fast this way and survivors heavily disliked the slugging meta because they were forced to watch the game while bleeding out on the floor. The same will happen on hooks with such an idea, survivors being on hook for 5 minutes straight because noone comes.
As covered in the 2nd part under "slugging", we eliminate slugging in it's current state as to make it no longer a viable way of killing.
I invite you to think through this one again. It really struck me as deficient the first few times thinking through it, but it managed to keep surprising me.
In the end you have to realize that BHVR is even scared of changing little parts of the game such as DS or hatch. Such a change would drastically change the whole game...... (maybe for the better, maybe not)
They could try a version in which they simply set the hook time to 10000 seconds and tell each other not to slug as to experiment with whether this would give a satisfying effect. When all 4 are hooked at the same time, they pretend to be dead. It's a really easy low-labour experiment for them, to see if it give a desired result.
Well but the classic genrush SWF now dont have to rush the hook, they can wait for an appropiate moment when walking to the next gen. And no, it cant happen that multiple go down due to voice comms, if a killer chases you they can unhook anyway.
I only compared to slugging, my point was the hostage situation on the hook. What is supposed to happen in this scenario? Imagine a leatherface reving the chainsaw infront of the hook or survivors refusing to unhook their mate.
We both know how internal playtesting works at BHVR's.....
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I think you have the right data but your conclusions you come to from it are off somewhat. Camping happens because the game is unbalanced. If the game was balanced more properly killers wouldn't feel the need to camp. I don't think your solution fixes the problem at all. You're punishing the killers essentially rather than seeing WHY they camp and fixing that. Obviously there are exceptions like grievers but we're talking generally here.
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One that was mentioned above about not having a time limit. People not being saved and having to sit on the hook the whole match, in the hopes to be saved at the end or not. Not fun.
There are a few things that aren't mentioned in this post, but assume that killers have received their compensating buff;
You could consider killing yourself on the hook if you don't believe things are progressing. (The better version of being slugged)
Or you could actually go as far as saying; survivors can unhook themselves after 120(+) seconds. (Which would replace the attempt escape bar) Meaning that if it takes too long for teammates to do anything, you'd be able to free yourself.
There are plenty of opportunites with a healtheir hooking system.One other issue is just... It doesn't stop tunneling.
We cover camping here. The anti-tunneling post is linked. However; even this alone can solve tunneling. If the killer is close enough to return in time, then why would you unhook? The other 2 survivors should be out of reach and the killer is forced to find other survivors. He/she cannot wait.
It makes it so that if you get tunneled, it's probably the fault of your teammates, where previously it was the "fault" of the killer.It isn't a bad idea, but I think it wouldn't end up turning out the way you wanted. There is no incentive to go save the survivor at all when there is no time pressure to do so. Why bother? Especially if the killer starts patrolling and not really looking for anyone.
Exactly. Only IF HE DOESN'T look for anyone. Beautiful isn't it (:
Because otherwise you have all reason to save your teammates.That would be the worst as a survivor.. to sit there on the hook the whole match.. People probably would start DC'ing if they were on the hook for 2 minutes and still didn't see anyone coming over to save them.
It would be the healthier brother of what we currently call slugging, but again, this time if you hang as long, it's the fault of your teammates, and them completely. They either are impatient or DC during their normally unsafe unhook in vanilla.
2 -
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
It is possible
This is going to be a weird thread. I will suggest something and you will likely find it ridiculous. After some explanation you start understanding how it truly solves camping, but you still find it ridiculous, but this time you may start to like it.
Mathematics
Sometimes a solution is just perfect. Take the parabola;
Do you want to know what the highest point of the parabola is?; there is only 1 perfect answer. In this case it's 5.
Well... that was easy! Now all we have to do is discuss if we actually wanted the highest number! Could it be true that we'd be able to do the same thing with camping? Let's give it a try;The core variables of camping
Something about the hooking mechanic must be causing the camping... but what? These are the variables related to camping:
-Hooking Phases
-Phase time
-Guaranteed survivor location informationHooking Phases
Now, Hooking Phases is more something that has to do with tunneling. After all, we know why people tunnel; It's because the first and 2nd hook achieve nothing. Trying to get a 3rd hook as fast as possible is one of the main ways of damaging and often nullifying a team's efficiency.
We already know how to solve that one;https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/34870/solution-to-the-death-efficiency-problem-solving-the-games-biggest-issue/p1
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/43554/the-future-of-dbd/p1But since removing this to 1 hooking phase clearly doesn't resolve camping, it's not what we are looking for.
Phase time
Phase time simply is the 60 seconds that it takes from a phase to progress to the next phase. It is this single factor that is completely responsible for all the frustration that people have experienced as a result for camping. Decreasing the timer (120 normally) to 30, then camping is close to being AT ITS WORST. Increasing the timer, makes camping less of a problem; a 300 timer would effectively kill off camping even in the lower ranks, and an non existent timer would nullify all frustration with "unfair" camping.The guilty variable!
So.. So.. wait.. hole-upaminite...
So what will happen if we remove this...Well... then people can hang infinitely on hooks!
but... hole-upaminite...
How will they enter a second hooking phase?They don't! They have to be unhooked and hooked again to enter the next hooking phase!
but... hole-upaminite...
Why would I ever unhook a teammate then, if unhooking them is the only way they can die on a hook?We simply make it so that if all living survivors are hooked at the same time, they get sacrificed and go through the animation! This is the key to making it all work.
but... but... hole-upaminite...
Surely this will not work as intended somehow?Here is an analysis:
1 Someone gets downed and hooked. Your team is now down 1 member in efficiency, but you can choose to save that teammate however you want.
2 The killer cannot stay at the hook, or else everyone will just finish the generators before attempting a save.
3 The killer can no longer play defensive. That is a positive and didn't fit the role of killer anyhow! But in this case, it's only due to them not being able to utilise their strength they previously had, which we will need to factor in at a later point.
4 So the killer, after hooking, will have to look for other survivors. If he downs the next, he'll have 2 people hooked.
5 Survivors are still motivated to rescue their team as fast as possible, because having 1 survivor continuously rescue one of the three hooked people in a cycle gets less generator progression done while the hooking stages progress, than having 1 survivor hooked; You want to have as minimal of an amount of players hooked as a survivor and unhook as quick as you can, but no longer are you forced to do this if the killer is nearby.but... hole-upaminite...
So there are a few things that also need to be addressed as a result of this, right?Now we know that all irritation regarding camping; unsafe unhooks, game-throwing rescues are all the result of this one single variable, we'll cover the consequences and appropriate response to eliminating such a variable;
What needs to be done in response to solving camping.
There are a couple of issues that need addressing; (every individual issue is addressed under the orange headlines)
-Compensation for the otherwise killer-nerf
-Slugging
-Adjustment in perks and mechanics
-Open Gate CampingCompensation for the otherwise killer-nerf
So what did we just do? We "forced" killers to play the Tru3Ta1ent way; the fun way. But that is mainly the fun way for survivors. What if the killer likes winning?
Well that was the problem originally. The winning strategy for a killer was never to spread their havoc across survivors, for the reason that hooking phases achieve little; only the 3rd one does! This made the un fun strategy the META for killers; to tunnel or to slug, which is of course the fun way for killers.
We want to achieve harmony. We want the killers winning strategy to match the survivor's fun strategy. This means 1 thing; we eliminate that which was previously the un fun winning strategy, and buff the Tru3Ta1ent way.
Since balance is relative, there are millions of ways we can compensate for their restrictions on un fun opportunities and replace them with healthy and new opportunities.
To not cover it all here, I'll leave a few links down here below, but one thing we can definitely use to re-establish balance for the killer are the Mechanics that also help to solve death-efficiency and is mentioned in the first link;
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/34870/solution-to-the-death-efficiency-problem-solving-the-games-biggest-issue/p1
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/43554/the-future-of-dbd/p1
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/39771/bloodwarden-for-free-on-every-killer/p1
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/41993/increasing-the-killer-mastery-cap-by-offering-them-more-choice/p1Any other community suggestions that built on this eliminated hooking timer or is helpful in shifting the tides is welcome in the comments!
It is mandated for solving the Camping Problem in this manner that it is not blindly implemented without any compensating change, as this would otherwise heavily hurt the overall balance between the 2 factions.
Slugging
Slugging as an un fun experience for plenty survivors was a beacon of hope to killers that found it unfair that even if they downed a survivor, they'd have to sometimes walk about 10 second with them on their shoulder, resulting in nearly half a free generator for the opposing team... and to do this 12 times?!
After all, slugging was the only way you'd be able to take a 4 generator long poo and still have a chance at getting 4 kills;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbHYvzijY6IWith us assuming killers to be significantly weaker as a result, we cannot have a system in place that circumvents our assumed weaker killer.
With the philosophy in mind that survivors should be more self-sufficient as in; "Nobody likes to lose before they are dead", we too grant the ability to recover from the dying state, and lower the bleed-out timer significantly based on how many survivors are alive. (More survivors alive = lower bleed-out rate).
This demands us to also address the sabotaging issue, but to not cover too much here, such a thing will be covered in a separate post.
All and all you need to know that if we solve camping and tunneling, we first have to eliminate or weaken slugging.
Adjustment in perks and mechanics
Although it isn't too hard, there would need to be simple adjustments to:
-Emblems related to hooking.
-Perks, like Deliverance, Slippery Meat, Monstrous Shrine.
-Due to slugging adjustments: Perks, like Unbreakable.
-The luck mechanic
-Pressing the button repeatedly in the 2nd hooking phase.The exact way that would be most enjoyable/preferable is uncertain and not absolute, so those will be left out of this post.
Open Gate Camping.
There is only 1 time where you'd consider camping and that is when the gates are open. When all other survivors leave, the hooked person will be sacrificed.
If they decide to stay, then they can keep attempting the save until 1 person dies in general. This is slightly unfair towards the killer. Giving the killer more control in the end-game by eliminating safe-zones may just be enough to allow the killer to hold a position of strength when the survivors are too obvious with their strategies;https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/39771/bloodwarden-for-free-on-every-killer/p1
End Note
What I find remarkable is that by eliminating exactly the variable that turns camping into an issue, we are sort of compelled to address other issues that exist in the game, such as;
-The Death-Efficiency issue (+ The Self-Sufficiency Issue)
-The Exit Gate Safe-Zone issue
-The button press in 2nd hooking phase issue, which has been brought up multiple times and gained awareness of the Devs.
-The slugging issue;
-The "fun-play-style-for-the-killer" issue.and all that can come from simply eliminating 1 variable? That surely is impressive (:
I invite you to play around with this idea;
What will happen when you eliminate this single variable of hooking-bar progression. Keep playing it back and forward. Imagine how you'd unhook, imagine how you'd behave as the killer.
The longer you play around with this, the sooner you realise that the initial premise is true; the one and only variable that caused 100+ threads full of complaints regarding camping is all caused by 1 variable.This does sound like a ridiculous suggestion, and it even still does to me. There'll be a lot of times where you'll have to hole-upaminite, but the longer you think about it, the less sane it will start to sound.
Thank you for reading!
plz someones from DBD hire this genious ~ kappa
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@Master said:
I get your approach to the problem but there are several problems with this idea.By removing the time limit, you take away all the time pressure from survivors, which is part of the "truetalent" way too btw. They dont need to care, knowing that their friend is perfectly fine on hook. At the moment by hooking you take 1 survivor out of the game and force another one (or even multiple in case of non swf) to go for an unhook. By elimitating the time limit, you eliminate the second part.
Sure this could all be balanced out with some hefty killer buffs, but well........
Then there are also other problems, what about randoms that simpyl dont save you. Or what if the killer camps anyway? You can create a hostage situation really fast this way and survivors heavily disliked the slugging meta because they were forced to watch the game while bleeding out on the floor. The same will happen on hooks with such an idea, survivors being on hook for 5 minutes straight because noone comes.
In the end you have to realize that BHVR is even scared of changing little parts of the game such as DS or hatch. Such a change would drastically change the whole game...... (maybe for the better, maybe not)
I see what you said but here its goes an idea, if you hang an a survivor and its has like 80 sec or 100 sec and if nobody save him, he dies?, and if they get him out he will have another shot to get hooked. Sounds legit for me, right now if you get hook you can go through the whole 3 states, so if we make the 3 states into a single one for each time you get hook, spliting 3 hooks into 3 attempt of kill. You have the chance of die in the first two, So save the survivor hooked is a priority and still have another chance to be hooked without diying.
what do you think @AlwaysInAGoodShape ?
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Well but the classic genrush SWF now dont have to rush the hook, they can wait for an appropiate moment when walking to the next gen. And no, it cant happen that multiple go down due to voice comms, if a killer chases you they can unhook anyway.
We should indeed rarily see multiple people hanging on the hook. That was part of the thought experiment to show that it would still all work.
However, with death-efficiency solved (as linked above), we shouldn't see the same extreme results, even what it's with the inherently problematic SWF mixed into the SoloQ.I only compared to slugging, my point was the hostage situation on the hook. What is supposed to happen in this scenario? Imagine a leatherface reving the chainsaw infront of the hook or survivors refusing to unhook their mate.
Suicide. Camping can only get you 1 kill in total and that would be the 1 kill you deserve. (If it's not a LF then with BT, you might actually still be able to save them; with open exit gates and all)
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Camping, Tunneling, Hook Swarming, Body Blocking etc are all part of the game. People may not like or agree with these strategies but they do in some scenarios work. Just learn to play around it. If the killer camps knock out as many generators as possible. If the killer tunnels don't rescue till the last minute with a borrowed time user or plan to body block. If survivors swarm hooks proximity camp.
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I see what you said but here its goes an idea, if you hang an a survivor and its has like 80 sec or 100 sec and if nobody save him, he dies?, and if they get him out he will have another shot to get hooked. Sounds legit for me, right now if you get hook you can go through the whole 3 states, so if we make the 3 states into a single one for each time you get hook, you have the chance of die in the first two, So save the survivor hooked is a priority and still have another chance to be hooked without diying.
I'm not sure if I understand what you mean.
Do you mean that you want 1 bar that doesn't cut parts off the timer depending on stages?0 -
But then what will leather face be good for if camping is removed XD0
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@fcc2014 said:
Camping, Tunneling, Hook Swarming, Body Blocking etc are all part of the game. People may not like or agree with these strategies but they do in some scenarios work. Just learn to play around it. If the killer camps knock out as many generators as possible. If the killer tunnels don't rescue till the last minute with a borrowed time user or plan to body block. If survivors swarm hooks proximity camp.The problem isn't that it's a problem balance wise. It's a problem fun-wise. We can justify a lot of inherently un fun things throughout various games and still call them balanced. The question is whether we should.
When people frequently bring up a complains, ignoring it will cause the complaints to go on for infinity, whatever reasons we have to justify ignoring it.
Addressing the problem improperly causes complaints elsewhere.
Addressing the problem fundamentally and universally will eliminate such complaints entirely.That's the art of it (:
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@BlackReaperI see what you said but here its goes an idea, if you hang an a survivor and its has like 80 sec or 100 sec and if nobody save him, he dies?, and if they get him out he will have another shot to get hooked. Sounds legit for me, right now if you get hook you can go through the whole 3 states, so if we make the 3 states into a single one for each time you get hook, you have the chance of die in the first two, So save the survivor hooked is a priority and still have another chance to be hooked without diying.
I'm not sure if I understand what you mean.
Do you mean that you want 1 bar that doesn't cut parts off the timer depending on stages?Yeah, if you get hooked, you can die if the bar goes down, but if they save you, you can be hook one more time and if you get the 3 try you die like right now.
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Yeah, if you get hooked, you can die if the bar goes down, but if they save you, you can be hook one more time and if you get the 3 try you die like right now.
Ah, I understand it. So to take your example 80-100 seconds, you'd be able to hang for a duration of 99x3 seconds in total, which is a net buff.
In your example, the total seconds are lower than 120 seconds, meaning that preventive camping would be worse, but if you'd even be able to get someone of the hook, they'd have their entire bar reset, completely obliterating the idea of tunneling and if pulled of successfully also camping.
I actually find your suggestion surprisingly interesting!
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Camping only ever yields successful match results (pips) when the Survivors fail to do their objective.
A Camper should never be able to pip, therefore should never be able to rank up and therefore should never be a problem for higher skilled players.
How would your solution handle "self-unhook attempts"? Are you able to unhook yourself 6 times until you finally die? Can you just unhook 5 times (wish me luck daddy) and then wait for an unlimited amount of time for the unhook and repeat the process on next hook?
What would happen to perks like Monstrous Shrine? And how would that solution help regarding balance? This would promote gen rush and slugging, two things no one likes to deal with. There would be no pressure in unhooking anymore, survivors could just keep pushing through gens and once they're all done, go for the unhook(s) one after another.
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A Camper should never be able to pip, therefore should never be able to rank up and therefore should never be a problem for higher skilled players.
I'll leave what "should" up to you (:
I view camping solely as a fun issue, not a balance issue.How would your solution handle "self-unhook attempts"? Are you able to unhook yourself 6 times until you finally die? Can you just unhook 5 times (wish me luck daddy) and then wait for an unlimited amount of time for the unhook and repeat the process on next hook?
Undecided on that. A little bit of experimenting or wrestling with the idea should give us the answer.
This would promote gen rush and slugging
Slugging is dead, remember. (Check Green Headline 2, Orange headline: slugging. It also doesn't promote gen-rushing barely any more as a killer leaving the hooks causes genrushing. Not only that, but with the talked about balance compensations, such gen-rushes wouldn't be as effective as they are now.
There would be no pressure in unhooking anymore
Is there pressure on survivors when survivors are slugged? If the answer is yes, then your statement is wrong. The timer when it comes down to slugging is also mostly irrelevant.
What would happen to perks like Monstrous Shrine?
I remember someone coming up with an ingenious suggestion of turning Monstrous Shrine into a perk that gives you a buff that repeats itself for every-time you hang someone in the basement.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@TheBeanWe cover camping here. The anti-tunneling post is linked. However; even this alone can solve tunneling. If the killer is close enough to return in time, then why would you unhook? The other 2 survivors should be out of reach and the killer is forced to find other survivors. He/she cannot wait.
It makes it so that if you get tunneled, it's probably the fault of your teammates, where previously it was the "fault" of the killer.
Exactly. Only IF HE DOESN'T look for anyone. Beautiful isn't it (:
Because otherwise you have all reason to save your teammates.Sorry I just included tunneling in there. Sure.. don't save... Why would I as killer come over though if there was no save? I'm coming back to get the person who was unhooked. I patrolled outside of terror radius not really looking for anyone. I waited for the save to come back and tunnel them down. Me as killer playing it this way is better emblems wise for me anyways. I'm not near the hook, but I'm still gonna tunnel that survivor down after they are unhooked. Then they go into phase 2, which is gonna kill them off.
It would be the healthier brother of what we currently call slugging, but again, this time if you hang as long, it's the fault of your teammates, and them completely. They either are impatient or DC during their normally unsafe unhook in vanilla.
You think so?.... How many survivors do you think are going to wait more then 2 minutes on the hook for a save they think may or may not come? Please... We'll have more survivors DC'ing the moment they are caught. It wouldn't be healthier at all... How could it be. If you took the time limit off the first phase how would sitting on the hook for 5 minutes be healthier?
If the survivor suicides on the hook, what was the point of removing the time limit then if survivors will more then likely kill themselves on the hook or DC?
I would rather be slugged.
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There is a subtle but fatal scientific error in your otherwise very well thought over concept. The best I can explain it is by responding directly to your discussion title:
"SO YOU WANT TO TRULY SOLVE CAMPING?"
No.
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I patrolled outside of terror radius not really looking for anyone.
The survivors control whether you can tunnel or now. If you don't bother actually finding someone, then there's no reason for them to unhook yet, while they keep doing gens, you lose.
The survivors will also control where you'll be able to find them. There's no more timer that mandates that you should go for an unsafe safe.Removing the timer from hooks doesn't negate tunneling as a concept; only removing differences between different hooks stages does, but it does negate the killers ability to choose to tunnel, because that's inherently in the hands of the survivors without the timer.
You think so?.... How many survivors do you think are going to wait more then 2 minutes on the hook for a save they think may or may not come?
Here's the difference between being hooked at a timer and being hooked without a timer:
1 forces you out of the game if nobody unhooks you.
2 let's you choose whether you actually want to leave the game. You can choose to live on longer.Don't make the mistake of thinking that a killer will still have time to stick around a hook; the killer will be chasing, and in both cases is unhooking someone as fast as possible the best way to go about things. The only difference is that the only time you have to go for a save is when the killer is indeed not camping.
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@George_Soros said:
There is a subtle but fatal scientific error in your otherwise very well thought over concept. The best I can explain it is by responding directly to your discussion title:"SO YOU WANT TO TRULY SOLVE CAMPING?"
No.
A lot of members do. It's not an ignorable issue.
Complaints become more valid based on frequency and always tell that something is inherently wrong about something else, but may not always communicate what exactly and in which manner.0 -
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@PiiFreeA Camper should never be able to pip, therefore should never be able to rank up and therefore should never be a problem for higher skilled players.
I'll leave what "should" up to you (:
I view camping solely as a fun issue, not a balance issue.How would your solution handle "self-unhook attempts"? Are you able to unhook yourself 6 times until you finally die? Can you just unhook 5 times (wish me luck daddy) and then wait for an unlimited amount of time for the unhook and repeat the process on next hook?
Undecided on that. A little bit of experimenting or wrestling with the idea should give us the answer.
This would promote gen rush and slugging
Slugging is dead, remember. (Check Green Headline 2, Orange headline: slugging. It also doesn't promote gen-rushing barely any more as a killer leaving the hooks causes genrushing. Not only that, but with the talked about balance compensations, such gen-rushes wouldn't be as effective as they are now.
There would be no pressure in unhooking anymore
Is there pressure on survivors when survivors are slugged? If the answer is yes, then your statement is wrong. The timer when it comes down to slugging is also mostly irrelevant.
What would happen to perks like Monstrous Shrine?
I remember someone coming up with an ingenious suggestion of turning Monstrous Shrine into a perk that gives you a buff that repeats itself for every-time you hang someone in the basement.
It's not really about how much pressure slugging applies, it's about how much pressure "infinite hooks" would apply compared to it. You spend 10-15 seconds picking someone up and bringing them to a hook, risk getting DS'd / bodyblocked for next to no progression unless you quickly take them out. It's even faster to unhook someone compared to healing a slugged up.
Slugging is a strat to stall the game and prolong repair times. Tthere is pressure when slugging someone because it doesn't take you 10-15 seconds to run to a hook to achieve "something". You can immediately continue to pressure other survivors while forcing one of the remaining ones to go and heal up the slugged guy sooner or later. In every case, 3 survivors will be busy and if not, they risk getting 4x slugged.
IMO, getting 4x slugged in the ultimate confession of failure for Survivors unless it's a Nurse doing so.
It would require further testing but just from theorycrafting, I don't think that change would overall improve the gaming experience for both sides. Survivors would hang on the hook for 5 gens finally waiting for that unhook while Killers would have no way of securing a kill in the endgame.
It would effectively create a new "hook standoff" where the last 3 survivors would hang around the last hooked survivor waiting for the Killer to make a mistake and vice-versa.
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Slugging is a strat to stall the game and prolong repair times.
Slugging is a strat that allows you to not having to deal with the game (Ds and walking as you mentioned), up until the game is over.
That is why slugging should indeed only be for momentum. (Meaning that at 1 point, players should be able to revive themselves from the dying state.)
You can still get momentum, but you can no longer use it to having to deal with the game until the very end.It would effectively create a new "hook standoff" where the last 3 survivors would hang around the last hooked survivor waiting for the Killer to make a mistake and vice-versa.
As linked; the issue of safe-zones has to be addressed, meaning that survivors can no longer escape "for free" when the exit gates are open and they avoid their opportunity of escape.
This grants the killer the ability to (succesfully) chase healthy survivors even if the exit gates are open.If it is believed that killers are too stubborn to chase another survivor even with that, and survivors are too stubborn to leave, then it could be possible to activate the timer as it would normally, as you correctly point out;
The reason why the removal of the variable works is that the killer is compelled to leave because of generator progression, but in the end, there's no longer something they'd loose. If such an issue would become a problem then an adjustment could solve that last piece of the puzzle.
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Awesome, not only another post on camping, but its a goddamn freaking essay. Next...
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Sure. Let me apologise, I was mostly trolling of course. Cannot resist sometimes.AlwaysInAGoodShape said:@George_Soros said:
There is a subtle but fatal scientific error in your otherwise very well thought over concept. The best I can explain it is by responding directly to your discussion title:"SO YOU WANT TO TRULY SOLVE CAMPING?"
No.
A lot of members do. It's not an ignorable issue.
Complaints become more valid based on frequency and always tell that something is inherently wrong about something else, but may not always communicate what exactly and in which manner.
More seriously: being camped can be frustrating, sure but it's mostly newer players, say, under 500 hours, who keep complaining about it. Anyone beyond that knows that real camping is in fact very rare. And even if it were not so, even if every killer were hard camping in every game, it would still mean that any survivor gets camped in 25% of their games in average.
Really not that stressful. A little, yes, but when it comes to the playerbase, it's quality we need, not quantity. And quality means emotionally stable players who can take a loss every once in a while, however frustrating, without giving up on the game.0 -
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
The survivors control whether you can tunnel or now. If you don't bother actually finding someone, then there's no reason for them to unhook yet, while they keep doing gens, you lose.
The survivors will also control where you'll be able to find them. There's no more timer that mandates that you should go for an unsafe safe.You are assuming all the survivors know what the killer is doing at all times, which they don't. You are assuming I don't find anyone. What if I do? There isn't anything committing me or forcing me to continue that chase. You are making the assumption that survivors play smart and don't play dumb at all and will never go for a save when the killer isn't near by. Why is there borrow time? Are they going to drop that perk out of the game so people won't try to save when the killer is near by?
You sometimes have no idea where the killer is when making a save... The killer could be across the map...Save made... Chainsaw right back there in a couple of seconds.
Please stop assuming the survivors are all or will be playing smart.
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
Here's the difference between being hooked at a timer and being hooked without a timer:
1 forces you out of the game if nobody unhooks you.I might aswell DC then if I don't see anyone coming to save me, or I think the save is over 3 minutes away cause the survivors are going to decide to work on gens, even if the killer chases someone else.
There is no point in playing the match as a survivor if I'm the first one found and hooked. I'm not gonna get points, I'm just going to sit there.. So dead on hook if hooked, or DC are my real options, cause I want points and no point in finishing out this match.
2 let's you choose whether you actually want to leave the game. You can choose to live on longer.
I choose to leave. DC out as early as possible since there is no point in playing a match to hang on a hook for 3 to 4 minutes not being saved and cause I'm not going to get any BP really.
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
Don't make the mistake of thinking that a killer will still have time to stick around a hook; the killer will be chasing, and in both cases is unhooking someone as fast as possible the best way to go about things. The only difference is that the only time you have to go for a save is when the killer is indeed not camping.Which you don't really know until you've searched the whole area near the hooked person looking for the insidious killer, or the hill billy / nurse on the otherside of the map who comes back a couple of seconds after the unhooking.
The issue I see with the idea is the survivor side of it. It would feel more hopeless getting caught early without the incentive to stay around. I don't want to be found first and hooked to sit there for 5 minutes, and then be rewarded with 2K BP cause I stayed on the hook while the match finished, 3 survivors escaped and I died on the hook since no one saved me. This was an example of reward.
The Devs would have to give a big reward to that player staying on the hook and not DCing, otherwise there would be no point.
In the end the killer would benefit simply cause the survivor doesn't want to play a waiting game.
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I still dont see how slugging should even be mentioned in a conversation about "fixing" camping.... survivors already have more then enough tools to combat slugging... UB, insta heals, the ability to recover to 95% and have 3 other people able to just tap em up is enough to combat really.... not too mention tenacity and no mither as well.....AlwaysInAGoodShape said:@Bravo0413 said:
Now I can agree with a new sacraficial system (honestly just do gens but a change or at least a test for something new wouldn't hurt)...... don't mess with slugging ----> it's a way for killers to slow the game down not many even use the tactic and because you use zubat (some one who has nearly 6000 hours in the game really?) Doesn't mean it needs nerf or change because camping is changedIt's about how you look at it. Slugging is a vital strategy, not that it is really healthy game-design, it avoids an otherwise terrible main way for killing, which hasn't been balanced properly because of such an unequal learning curve.
At low ranks, survivors are worse than their killer counterparts with the same amount of hours, meaning that survivors need to be "OP" in order to "Balance" the game. In order for killers to compensate for survivors "having to be OP", they try to avoid the main way of killing with whatever methods they can. Slugging is the manifestation of that.
I don't see it as a problem to remove slugging as a viable way of killing everybody, if we fix the main way through which killers can kill.
I only see removing slugging as a problem when the learning curve is unequal and killers have no way to compensate for an otherwise broken state of the game due to their main route of killing begin insufficient.
But to the camping "issue"... no one can argue that is an unfun tactic... and I have to agree with both the_bean and blueberry... this idea does not fix the problem and causes new ones.... obviously noobs and players that are just hunting for salt are going to be the ones who play this camping tactic so imo you punish the killer even more since they want to do that....
My idea is keep the same number of hooks only -----> the first hook doesnt move into 2nd phase and after 2mins the entity spawns and the survivor dies ---> if saved itll be like the old sacrafice where itll be 1min 1st stage and 1min second phase and on the 3rd hook survivor dies........ maybe on the first hook extend the time a little to punish harder.... its deff difficult to balance
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You are assuming all the survivors know what the killer is doing...
...assuming the survivors are all or will be playing smart.I'm not. I'm saying that this covers camping, and it also targets tunnelling insofar that it's by the mistake of the survivor to go for that unsafe unhook.
The link is what covers tunnelling.
A general indicator for not getting your mate tunnelled: Somebody else gets hit, but you can't see them/hear the TR as you're going for the save.I might aswell DC then if I don't see anyone coming to save me
You could ######### on hook, but if DC'ing is your preferable choice (:
Again, this hooking system is similar to slugging, but isn't as bad as slugging as the killer has to pick someone up, meaning that if you indeed get to spend a long time on the ground (or in this case on the hook) then it's your teammates fault.
Every issue with having to wait is worse with slugging as it's here.Which you don't really know until you've searched the whole area near the hooked person looking for the insidious killer, or the hill billy / nurse on the otherside of the map who comes back a couple of seconds after the unhooking.
Well played on the killer's part. But this time the game didn't compel you to play into it.
The issue I see with the idea is the survivor side of it. It would feel more hopeless getting caught early without the incentive to stay around. I don't want to be found first and hooked to sit there for 5 minutes
You will not have to worry about not getting unhooked. Remember, it doesn't matter that the timer is gone;
We didn't break someone's incentive to rescue people, and the best time to do is remains; AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. This is the META strategy. The only change is that instead of possible meaning unsafe unhooks, it means the moment you can go for a safe unhook, instead of it being unsafe.Just ask yourself this:
Would you rather finish a generator or heal someone being slugged? (Generally the timer rarely ever goes to 0 there either, making it practically the same.)The Devs would have to give a big reward to that player staying on the hook and not DCing, otherwise there would be no point.
I won't cover all of it here, but the rewarding system in DBD is broken and inaccurate. Creating a team-based rewarding system. (How many gens were finished: How many people were injured, how many died, etc) would make it irrelevant that you are the person camped/slugged/hooked, etc.
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I still dont see how slugging should even be mentioned in a conversation about "fixing" camping.... survivors already have more then enough tools to combat slugging... UB, insta heals, the ability to recover to 95% and have 3 other people able to just tap em up is enough to combat really.... not too mention tenacity and no mither as well.....
The reason why slugging has to be solved is because we're basically making hooking weaker for killers, while buffing them appropriately. How can we buff killers while keeping their strongest strategy on the same power-level?
Slugging is mentioned because of this compensation.this idea does not fix the problem and causes new ones
It does not solve camping? It doesn't teleport the killer away obviously, but it nullifies it being anything productive throughout the game at any skill-level from Rank 20 to 1. I'd call that solving.
You can not play killer and think "Let's camp". It's no longer a concept to you, because we just removed the single variable that made it one.
As PiiFree brought up;
Only at the end when the exit gates are open, can you conceive of the idea of camping, and this is also where it's accepted or at times mandated. We even switched up that game.0 -
Hooking is in no way shape or form close to slugging and never will be.... when the killer hooks its more of a time waster for the killer because of the pick up and walk and hook. Slugging is a gamble because you can gain momentum if the survivor stays on the ground for a decent amount of time but if someone is there it could cause you to lose momentum and start from scratch you didn't hook the person...... like I said hooking is and never will be close to slugging and vice versa...AlwaysInAGoodShape said:You are assuming all the survivors know what the killer is doing...
...assuming the survivors are all or will be playing smart.I'm not. I'm saying that this covers camping, and it also targets tunnelling insofar that it's by the mistake of the survivor to go for that unsafe unhook.
The link is what covers tunnelling.
A general indicator for not getting your mate tunnelled: Somebody else gets hit, but you can't see them/hear the TR as you're going for the save.I might aswell DC then if I don't see anyone coming to save me
You could [BAD WORD] on hook, but if DC'ing is your preferable choice (:
Again, this hooking system is similar to slugging, but isn't as bad as slugging as the killer has to pick someone up, meaning that if you indeed get to spend a long time on the ground (or in this case on the hook) then it's your teammates fault.
Every issue with having to wait is worse with slugging as it's here.Which you don't really know until you've searched the whole area near the hooked person looking for the insidious killer, or the hill billy / nurse on the otherside of the map who comes back a couple of seconds after the unhooking.
Well played on the killer's part. But this time the game didn't compel you to play into it.
The issue I see with the idea is the survivor side of it. It would feel more hopeless getting caught early without the incentive to stay around. I don't want to be found first and hooked to sit there for 5 minutes
You will not have to worry about not getting unhooked. Remember, it doesn't matter that the timer is gone;
We didn't break someone's incentive to rescue people, and the best time to do is remains; AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. This is the META strategy. The only change is that instead of possible meaning unsafe unhooks, it means the moment you can go for a safe unhook, instead of it being unsafe.Just ask yourself this:
Would you rather finish a generator or heal someone being slugged? (Generally the timer rarely ever goes to 0 there either, making it practically the same.)The Devs would have to give a big reward to that player staying on the hook and not DCing, otherwise there would be no point.
I won't cover all of it here, but the rewarding system in DBD is broken and inaccurate. Creating a team-based rewarding system. (How many gens were finished: How many people were injured, how many died, etc) would make it irrelevant that you are the person camped/slugged/hooked, etc.
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Hooking is in no way shape or form close to slugging and never will be.... when the killer hooks its more of a time waster for the killer because of the pick up and walk and hook. Slugging is a gamble because you can gain momentum if the survivor stays on the ground for a decent amount of time but if someone is there it could cause you to lose momentum and start from scratch you didn't hook the person...... like I said hooking is and never will be close to slugging and vice versa...
It wasn't about the extra momentum from slugging by not having to walk to the hook here was it?
The similarity was that both do have a (mostly) irrelevant timer and in both cases do survivors quickly go for the saves/heals. They don't ignore them because otherwise they get 4 slugged/ or in this case 4 hooked.
See the similarity?
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Not at all... unhooking will always be faster then picking up.... you hook the first survivor most likely you'll have 3 gens pop if you slug you can possibly stop a gen or 2... I never 4 slug survivors (and unless their potatoes you cant really 4 slug) i always use the tactic to slow down the survivors momentumAlwaysInAGoodShape said:Hooking is in no way shape or form close to slugging and never will be.... when the killer hooks its more of a time waster for the killer because of the pick up and walk and hook. Slugging is a gamble because you can gain momentum if the survivor stays on the ground for a decent amount of time but if someone is there it could cause you to lose momentum and start from scratch you didn't hook the person...... like I said hooking is and never will be close to slugging and vice versa...
It wasn't about the extra momentum from slugging by not having to walk to the hook here was it?
The similarity was that both do have a (mostly) irrelevant timer and in both cases do survivors quickly go for the saves/heals. They don't ignore them because otherwise they get 4 slugged/ or in this case 4 hooked.
See the similarity?
Meaning I'll slug 1 find another chase them and that forces the 3rd to grab the slug... Making only 1 doing gens0 -
Option 1:
People who perform unsafe unhooks are put in the Dying state and become afflicted with the Broken status effect for the remainder of the trial. Unsafe unhooks are redefined to "An unhook where the person who was unhooked is hit by the Killer after less than 10 seconds".Survivors will go back to working on generators like they're supposed to, and camping will be punished by the Survivors, just like it's supposed to be.
Option 2:
Sacrifice speed is increased by 0.5% for every meter the Killer is away from the hook (starting at 16 meters). Killer becomes Hasted for a short time every time they hook a different Survivor. Killer also gains increased recovery speed from both hits and misses for a short time after hooking any Survivor; this effect is strongest in a 2-meter radius around the hook, where recovery is instantaneous, but distance from the hook does not otherwise affect this status."Hook and forget" playstyle becomes preferential, hook vultures heavily punished.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
The reason why the removal of the variable works is that the killer is compelled to leave because of generator progression, but in the end, there's no longer something they'd loose. If such an issue would become a problem then an adjustment could solve that last piece of the puzzle.The unfortunate reality is that it can very easily take longer than 2 minutes to catch someone 2 times again, which is why camping sometimes is more time-efficient than going after others instead.
I must admit, I didn't read through the linked threads (Yet) where you refer to the balance adjustments required for the Killers.
I'm all for making camping less efficient BUT it would require major changes regarding chase efficiency of Killers, which I'm certain wouldn't be accepted by the majority of the playerbase (read: the survivor mains).
No one likes to get camped and no one likes to end up with 0 kills, especially after hooking 8 survivors. You'll end up looking at 4 teabagging Survivors that did next to nothing to achieve this match result while you ripped your own ass up to get those hooks.
There needs to be some proper balance regarding dedication, efficiency and contribution for everyone, not just the Killer. Repairing 5 gens as 4 Survivors is a joke, it's a bit more than a single generator per survivor and then you're effectively ready to escape. A task that requires 100s for a single survivor - but there's 4 of them.
So, if you read this and think "oh man, that's exactly what the other threads are about -.-"; I'll probably be reading them by that time so you don't have to bother replying :P...
I'm just really careful when I see onesided balance adjustments and this goes both ways. As you said, in the end we want to make the match fun for everyone; this includes both sides.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
You could [BAD WORD] on hook, but if DC'ing is your preferable choice (:
Again, this hooking system is similar to slugging, but isn't as bad as slugging as the killer has to pick someone up, meaning that if you indeed get to spend a long time on the ground (or in this case on the hook) then it's your teammates fault.
Every issue with having to wait is worse with slugging as it's here.I personally don't DC, I would suicide. However there are some where DC'ing is pretty easy to them, so it would make the decision even easier for them, if there could be a long wait associated with getting caught. I feel this would make it worse, at least until there is some real punishment for DC'ing.
With slugging, it has a set time. You can only bleed out so much before you'll be dead. I can crawl around and maybe not be found by the killer... I can even have a chance for the hatch while slugged. I can crawl to someone working on a gen to get healed. I'm not stuck to one place, unless the killer is watching me.
With slugging the killer doesn't get hooking points. He can keep me on the ground for a finite time and not get anymore points from me. Why give the killer more hooking points and allow them to keep me there for an "infinite" amount of time. In the hopes they move off to get someone else?
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
Well played on the killer's part. But this time the game didn't compel you to play into it.No.. Just like it wouldn't compel any survivor to ever save you and leave you there as bait for the killer then t-bag you at the exit knowing you are about to finish the match on the hook.... 10 minutes later.
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
You will not have to worry about not getting unhooked. Remember, it doesn't matter that the timer is gone;
We didn't break someone's incentive to rescue people, and the best time to do is remains; AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. This is the META strategy. The only change is that instead of possible meaning unsafe unhooks, it means the moment you can go for a safe unhook, instead of it being unsafe.True. I just have worry about me EVER being unhooked, also I have to worry about WHEN I'm going to be unhooked. There is no urgency for the survivors ever to come and get me.
If I'm stuck on the hook until 4 gens get done, and I was caught before any gen was completed. I basically joined a match and got nothing in the match. The survivor might get lucky to escape and maybe some points... maybe... however the match really is lost for that survivor. They will be the lowest scorer and yet, they went through the most painful aspect of the match, being on the hook and waiting in the hopes of being saved.
Waiting.... Waiting.... Who likes to wait?.... You like waiting?... Like waiting in queue for 5 minutes as killer? How about being a survivor who waited 5 minutes to get into a match, who now has to wait 5 minutes to get unhooked while IN a match.
I'm not playing DBD to sit on a hook for 5 minutes... or even 3 minutes...
If I get slugged, at least I can do something... On the hook... There isn't anything I can do, unless I got Deliverance (which would become the new meta).I get saved while slugged... and get slugged again... the timer didn't reset...
Just ask yourself this:
Would you rather finish a generator or heal someone being slugged? (Generally the timer rarely ever goes to 0 there either, making it practically the same.)Cause the reason it rarely goes to zero, is because there is a time limit of how long you'll be alive while slugged. If you give them an infinite amount of time while slugged, then their is no reason to put in the effort to heal the slugged up right away.
Slugging where you'll die in a few minutes compared to the unlimited amount of time I can spend being hooked? I would rather be slugged. I would rather know when I'm gonna die, rather then not know.
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
I won't cover all of it here, but the rewarding system in DBD is broken and inaccurate. Creating a team-based rewarding system. (How many gens were finished: How many people were injured, how many died, etc) would make it irrelevant that you are the person camped/slugged/hooked, etc.This could help. As long as I didn't have to stay in the match till the end in order for the game to calculate how much I earned when sitting on the hook for 4 minutes before I got saved and then rehooked and camped to death.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@BlackReaperYeah, if you get hooked, you can die if the bar goes down, but if they save you, you can be hook one more time and if you get the 3 try you die like right now.
Ah, I understand it. So to take your example 80-100 seconds, you'd be able to hang for a duration of 99x3 seconds in total, which is a net buff.
In your example, the total seconds are lower than 120 seconds, meaning that preventive camping would be worse, but if you'd even be able to get someone of the hook, they'd have their entire bar reset, completely obliterating the idea of tunneling and if pulled of successfully also camping.
I actually find your suggestion surprisingly interesting!
Thanks mate, i read the @Master comment and i think about his problem with your idea and then i try to fix it, im good with the balance change
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Not at all... unhooking will always be faster then picking up.... you hook the first survivor most likely you'll have 3 gens pop if you slug you can possibly stop a gen or 2... I never 4 slug survivors (and unless their potatoes you cant really 4 slug) i always use the tactic to slow down the survivors momentum
Meaning I'll slug 1 find another chase them and that forces the 3rd to grab the slug... Making only 1 doing gens
I'm not sure if you still track the purpose of the comparison. The comparison with slugging was to prove that if a person is rendered immobile, you are still mandated to heal/save them, even if their timer is mostly irrelevant/non-existent as the killer will work his way towards a 4 hooked/4 slugged.
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Survivors being immobile.... okay can be compared but theres still huge differences... on one hand you have a gamble that can give a huge amount of reward on the other you most likely waste time hooking to have the guy saved in a matter of seconds but that hooked survivor is closer to being sacraficed...AlwaysInAGoodShape said:Not at all... unhooking will always be faster then picking up.... you hook the first survivor most likely you'll have 3 gens pop if you slug you can possibly stop a gen or 2... I never 4 slug survivors (and unless their potatoes you cant really 4 slug) i always use the tactic to slow down the survivors momentum
Meaning I'll slug 1 find another chase them and that forces the 3rd to grab the slug... Making only 1 doing gens
I'm not sure if you still track the purpose of the comparison. The comparison with slugging was to prove that if a person is rendered immobile, you are still mandated to heal/save them, even if their timer is mostly irrelevant/non-existent as the killer will work his way towards a 4 hooked/4 slugged.
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@Orion said:
Option 1:
People who perform unsafe unhooks are put in the Dying state and become afflicted with the Broken status effect for the remainder of the trial. Unsafe unhooks are redefined to "An unhook where the person who was unhooked is hit by the Killer after less than 10 seconds".Survivors will go back to working on generators like they're supposed to, and camping will be punished by the Survivors, just like it's supposed to be.
The issue at had here is not that camping is imbalanced. (It's weak at a normal-high level). It's that it's un fun and a frequent point of complaining at lower ranks.
I don't see how this would solve this.
As a measurement against safe-unhooking, I think it's unfair and maybe unintuitive; in cases where someone will nearly reach the next hooking stage, it's beneficial to unsafely unhook someone. If the Anti-Unsafe-Unhooking mechanic were to exist to purely tackle farming/bad-behaviour unhooks then it wouldn't properly address that.Option 2:
Sacrifice speed is increased by 0.5% for every meter the Killer is away from the hook (starting at 16 meters). Killer becomes Hasted for a short time every time they hook a different Survivor. Killer also gains increased recovery speed from both hits and misses for a short time after hooking any Survivor; this effect is strongest in a 2-meter radius around the hook, where recovery is instantaneous, but distance from the hook does not otherwise affect this status.This causes a same type of unintended awkwardness with the killer being near hooks, for whatever reason we deem valid. Why should the killer not be allowed to stay close to a hook? Why should this area be so punishing?
It is somewhat similar to the emblem system, where it keeps a certain playstyle in but tries to artificially punish it at the same time. I'm generally against such solutions and find them clunky."Hook and forget"
That's the right mindset. And exactly that bit. But we want to ensure there is nothing there was to gain by forgetting in the first place; to eliminate exactly that.
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Survivors being immobile.... okay can be compared but theres still huge differences... on one hand you have a gamble that can give a huge amount of reward on the other you most likely waste time hooking to have the guy saved in a matter of seconds but that hooked survivor is closer to being sacraficed...
I think you're getting closer to the understanding here; now. The comparison here is not about the power in between the 2. Slugging is singlehandedly more powerful; but you see the effect that I'm trying to illustrate;
When someone is rendered immobile and their timer is irrelevant, it is beneficial to heal/save them rather than to wait things out.
Now, see it like this: There still is some sort of a timer; the hooking phases. For every time a survivor is hooked this "timer" ticks, slowly coming to an end.
While this timer ticks (as the killer attacks and hooks defencelessly) you preferably have AS MANY survivors mobile rather than hooked.Similar to slugging, your preferred behaviour remains: Save as soon as you CAN. but the "CAN", is now more healthy as it only includes a safe-unhook.
If you understand that, then you understand my argument as for why the idea of removing the hook timer is initially so deceiving and makes you believe that you are no longer compelled to unhooked.
A lot of people fall for this one and believe that no timer = not being compelled. They will have to learn it the hard way (:0 -
I personally don't DC, I would suicide. However...
...hopes they move off to get someone else?To make it easy; What would you prefer?
To be able to judge for yourself that you're not going to be rescued and choose the easy way out (which again is an abnormality)
Or being slugged for 200+ seconds, while waiting out your inevitable death?If you believe you won't be unhooked (and my guess is you'll more often guess wrong then right), then what is your problem with being able to choose whether to pick the easy way out?
The truth is, people will unhook you. If they don't, everyone dies on a hook at the same time. The longer they wait, the less they can progress the team, because the less amount of people are doing gens while the killers stacks his hooking counts slowly moving to 12.
No.. Just like it wouldn't compel any survivor to ever save you and leave you there as bait for the killer then t-bag you at the exit knowing you are about to finish the match on the hook.... 10 minutes later.
They would be compelled even when baited. The timer compels you undeniably. You aren't mandated by the game to do so, but you surely are compelled.
True. I just have worry about me EVER being unhooked, also I have to worry about WHEN I'm going to be unhooked. There is no urgency for the survivors ever to come and get me.
Do you have this worry when being slugged? You should actually feel less worried, because the killer has to pick up someone first, allowing others to save you if you were still hooked.
So to summarise:
People will quickly unhook you. They will only delay an unhook if it's unsafe (or when they are bad), but in the cases where your teammates are that bad, you would've normally died. Instead now you live on, with full control of deciding whether you believe your team will be 4ked and hooked or whether someone will pull one off.
The only times you'll get one-hooked is where everybody gets 4 hooked. Unlike in vanilla, you'll in every other case get a second and third chance.
They can also escape without you, but a timer wouldn't have helped you there; quite the opposite.It's this idea that you need to understand; if they don't rescue you, they will be 4 hooked, meaning that they will rescue you.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
That's the right mindset. And exactly that bit. But we want to ensure there is nothing there was to gain by forgetting in the first place; to eliminate exactly that.So you want "hook and forget" to become the default, but you don't want to provide any incentive for doing so? How do you suppose that's going to work, exactly?
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@Orion said:
So you want "hook and forget" to become the default, but you don't want to provide any incentive for doing so? How do you suppose that's going to work, exactly?
We don't need an incentive. It is normally the least efficient way to win, but due to how survivors get multiple chances, the most fun one.
The only problem is that losing isn't fun for the killer, where as the hook and forget is not inherently un fun for the killer.This is why (Green Headline 2 Orange headline: "Compensating for the otherwise killer nerf"), we make it the strong play-style by balancing the game accordingly.
Here is the key trick: If they cannot camp and should forget, it would also be preferable if they didn't have to think much about tunneling either.
With death-efficiency solved, they can truly play the killer the way that can be enjoyed by all sides; causing havoc across the board, fun for the killer as it's a winnable strategy for which they don't have to feel guilty and for the survivors as their match no longer has to finish after 1 minor mistake/slip.
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@Funbag5 said:
Sorry I don't have a lot to say but what if when you hook a second person the struggle phase is forced to start on the first person if they are still hanging there?So everybody who is hanging progresses to the next stage upon someone else being hooked?
I don't see anything wrong with that gameplay-wise. Could actually be very healthy.
Coming to think of it, that might actually address everyone's fear about them being ignored on the hook because there's presumably "no pressure" to save them, but done in a very healthy manner.
That's some excellent thinking work right there! I wish I could highlight your comment.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
TL;DR
1 Variable is guilty for all frustrating camping, unsafe unhooking and game-throwing of that nature; it's the fact there's a bar that makes you progress to the next phase. On first sight it's not obviously how damaging something of such nature is, but we can solve it by completely removing that timer, effectively killing camping as a valid concept, making it so that you can only progress to next phases by either being saved and hooked again, or by having all living survivors being hooked resulting into their sacrifice.
The change of eliminating such a crucial variable also forces to also address separate issues that are unresolved. One of which are; Slugging, The new killer-versus-survivor balance, adjustments to perks/luck/hook-related-emblems, Open Gate camping and indirectly safe-zones.
All is covered in more detail in the OP.
Here is an alternative theory. Each survivor has 3 lives. After being hooked the survivor is sacrificed and has a respawn timer. The respawn timer would take some playtesting to find something that is fair. 45 seconds sounds about right though. After the respawn timer is up the survivor respawns in a random location on the map at least 32 meters away from the killers current location. If all 4 survivors are in a respawn timer window then the game ends and the killer wins. Hooks don't permanently break unless it is the survivors last life. Perks don't reset upon death. IE the survivor doesn't get a decisive strike for each life. Anything game related to unhooking mechanic just gets revamped.
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I just had a better idea on how to make my idea work that would resolve a lot of the unhooking issues. Instead of the player re-spawning in a random location, the player would respawn on a random hook. The killer would not see the survivors aura. In fact the killer wouldn't even be able to see the survivor at all. Only survivors would be able to see and interact with the hooked survivor.
What this would do is allow any mechanics that interact with hooking to continue relatively unchanged. WGLF, We'll Make it would function normally. Deliverance would both be buffed and nerfed. Buffed in the sense that there is no struggle phase so the survivor would have 2 chances to use it. Nerfed in the sense that unhooking would be almost 0 risk so there isn't a lot of purpose.
This would also force another survivor to get off a gen to go do an unhook. It would also bring the survivor back into the game in an injured state so that would put the survivors in a further time out while they are healing. This would also further increase the killers ability to win the game. If all survivors are on the respawn timer, hook, or dead then the killer wins.
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