http://dbd.game/killswitch
People still get upset because of lightborn?
Comments
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I think this could be a very healthy way to keep the perk's effect but give Survivors something for it, but it wouldn't make much sense would it? Shouldn't they only get the points if they do blind?
Well all this revised Lightborn is doing is making you immune to the effects of being blinded, instead of what what it does now, which is make you immune to blind period, so we have no interactions whatsoever.
In the fantasy world of DBD, there is basically no difference, the only things that are different are the more meta aspects of the perk regarding how the game representation of being "blinded" is translated to the survivor (the beam narrowing, the blind sound effect playing and the scire event occurring for the survivor... none of which would happen in the "real" world of DBD).
Unlike other beasts of The Fog, you have adapted to light.
As such, I think it makes sense, you are Lightborn, so you have adapted to not be affected by being blinded. So survivors can blind you, but it gives you none of the negative effects.
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So you get blinded but not stunned, and none of the screen effect?
That just seems like it still makes trying to flashlight useless as now Survivors will just slwo themselves down and end up as sitting ducks for points, isn't that the same problem?-5 -
the key difference is that Lightborn guarantees full prevention from being blinded. DS and OtR don't guarantee you from preventing being tunneled out. The 5-second stun and extra endurance hit does literally nothing. That's the point I'm trying to make
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Well, yes, as I said, it's more interactions. The killer can feign being blinded to keep up the subterfuge, but once they block a flashlight save, the jig is up. This is a buff to Lightborn...
However the advantage for Survivor is now, perks like Champion of Light and Residual Manifest do actually work against the killer, since the killer is still considered blinded.
This means on pick up, these perks would slow the killer and/or make it so they wouldn't see hook auras. Might make no difference... or it might help make a save the Survivor team would have otherwise found impossible.
Considering Lightborn isn't even considered a good perk with 100% immunity (look at it's history, it has been buffed repeatedly back before the modern DBD era where perks getting buffed was rare), unless the plan is to delete the perk, this seems the most balanced compromise.
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But is blinding a fun interaction for everyone?
What about chain blinding?
Is it maybe time to consider this mechanic differently again? Just some possible things to ask here.-2 -
I mean... to answer each of those points.
But is blinding a fun interaction for everyone?
Blinding isn't fun for everyone, but does it need to be? There are certainly plenty of people who do have fun trying to blind the killer, which Lightborn completely prevents currently. This change actually allows them to go for blinds, and if they have a perk for it, still get value.
There are also challenges to blind the killer while carrying a survivor, which a lot of people get annoyed at because blinding the killer is hard, especially with Lightborn being used by the killers not so good at dodging torches. The killer having Lightborn makes challenges like this actually easier.
What about chain blinding?
What about it? Chain blinding doesn't change... but a killer walking into chain blinds is fishy cause you can simply look down to avoid it. Serves as an extra clue they might have Lightborn if nothing else.
Is it maybe time to consider this mechanic differently again?
You mean new mechanic as in an entirely new effect for Lightborn? I mean maybe, but that would annoy a lot of people who like Lightborn, and as I say it's widely regarded as not a good perk that weakens your build overall… so given in its niche its basically the strongest it can be, satisfying that niche better is almost impossible.
This is the best solution I've come up with in nearly 2 years over numerous Lightborn discussions and debates. Happy to hear a better solution, but most solutions I've seen to date make Lightborn worse than it already is and/or have no point running it... and ofc don't address the problem that this perk is anti-synergistic with related perks due to its hard counter nature.
So... I certainly have no idea, but the floor is open if you've got a better idea.
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Im not a huge fan of brainless gameplay. Just putting a perk on that makes you invincible to 1/3 of the items (lets be real theres only 3 popular choices.) in the game. I do not think the perk is strong; however, It would be a lot more interesting if it worked similar to distortion. Ya, you can just turn off the opponents kit, but no it's not unlimited.
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Blinding isn't fun for everyone, but does it need to be?
Yes. Yes it does. Interactions should be fun and interactive for EVERYONE playing. Sitting there being chain blinded or unavoidably blinded is not interactive or fun for the Killer. Is it fun for YOU to be blinded a bunch as Killer? If you don't play Killer, let's talk from Survivor side - Being stunned and staggered by say… Kaneki's Ghoul Bite is technically an interaction between Killer and Survivor, does that feel fun? It sure doesn't for me! Same idea. It removes agency in a way that feels hard to or even impossible to avoid in some situations… just like some cases of blinding do for Killer. Not fun, not a well designed interaction, needs looking at.
There are blind challenges
Not anymore there's not! :D Quest system changed that. You never need to worry about having to do challenges like these anymore because they no longer exist, so there's now no excuse for doing this to a Killer unless you're going for that Champion of Light cheevo or an old Tome challenge! Hooray! One less nuisance challenge wasting everyone's time! Now the only reason to do blinds is for bonus points, as should have always been intended - no more teammates throwing for blinds and no more nuisance blinds period. :) Much more manageable for everyone.
Killers walk into chain blinds
No Killer in the entire Fog willingly wants to get blinded, stunned, chain blinded, or flashlight stunned into a blind. Killers do not enjoy having agency taken away for your blind challenge. Lightborne is there to prevent these sorts of unfun scenarios - and yes, for the Killer, chain blinds and chain stuns aren't fun because they eliminate player agency, as we have established.
An entirely new effect for Lightborne?
How about just removing the blind mechanic and replacing what flashlights, Blast Mine, and flashbang do for something else, like… I dunno… Hindering the Killer? Causing a stun without that awful effect on the screen? Halting Aura Read for a time instead? ANYTHING that feels more fair and interactive than BLINDING THEM AND HALTING THEIR MOVEMENT ENTIRELY?
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Okay... first off, I do play killer, and I've played against my fair share of bully squads, and flashlights aren't that big a deal. Survivors going for flashlight saves are survivors that are not on gens, and if you successfully defend against a flashlight save, you gain a lot of additional time and momentum by virtue of the flashlight player(s) not committing their time to doing generators.
Yes. Yes it does. Interactions should be fun and interactive for EVERYONE playing. Sitting there being chain blinded or unavoidably blinded is not interactive or fun for the Killer. Is it fun for YOU to be blinded a bunch as Killer?
Tell me, is getting downed fun for survivor? Is getting shot and killed in Counter Strike fun? Is being scored against in Fifa fun? Is missing the ball in Pinball and losing a credit fun? Is walking into a gooma in Super Mario fun? Obviously not... these things are negative experiences that are counterbalance to the positive experience of successfully overcoming these obstacles. The fundamental premise of a game is that it requires the possibility you might lose. If you can't possibly lose, you don't have a game.
If flashlights didn't work the way they do, then survivors instead don't even try to use them, which means you can never get that positive experience of overcoming the obstacles. Playing around flashlight saves and sabo saves is perfectly managable from the killer perspective and successfully handling gives you as the Killer a sizable advantage. It serves as an additional gameplay element that does actually test your skill as killer to read/predict the survivors and effectively punish the entire survivor side for trying (and failing) to save.
How about just removing the blind mechanic and replacing what flashlights, Blast Mine, and flashbang do for something else, like… I dunno… Hindering the Killer? Causing a stun without that awful effect on the screen? Halting Aura Read for a time instead? ANYTHING that feels more fair and interactive than BLINDING THEM AND HALTING THEIR MOVEMENT ENTIRELY?
Why on earth are you advocating for blinds to be removed? Also what are you talking about? Being hindered or stunned is way worse an effect than being blinded with the splash. All you need is a pair of headphones and the blind doesn't even do anything to you if you pay attention. Furthermore your movement isn't halted when blinded currently... it isn't halted at all unless you're stunned carrying a survivor, which has nothing to do with the screen splash effect youre complaining about. You're instead advocating for changing it to ACTUALLY do that instead? Have you make a typo here? Cause this whole section makes 0 sense...
I actually thought you were originally arguing about flashlights only from a Survivor perspective of not being fun for everyone, because this talk of removing blind elements from the game doesn't make sense when Lightborn exists.
Why on earth should blinding be removed from the game for the survivors and killers who can and do play around that risk/reward, for the sake of players who don't? If the killers don't want to deal with this element of the game, they take Lightborn, a perk which actually harms them btw, since Survivors don't engage with this part of the game anymore, and in turn just crank gens... and as Survivor you just don't take a flashlight. To remove blinds as an element for everyone when the players who don't want it can already do so themselves is a bizarre take.
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- You're taking this waaaayyyyy too personally dude. Stop. I didn't once accuse you of not playing Killer, I just wanted to cover my bases in case you truly were more of a Survivor Main because some people are. I don't know your play history and frankly don't care about it. Calm down.
- I don't really care to hear "But Survs with flashlights are Survs not on gens" when that's not the argument we're having. The discussion is about whether or not this is a fun interaction mechanic, not if it makes the game easier for Killer or not. There's a lot of other ways Survs can not be on gens that don't involve bullying new players with four flashlights or chain blinding people until they want to DC because they aren't having fun. And Blinding, especially chain blinding, makes people have no fun.
- You need to consider both sides of an asymmetric game, that's why I'm arguing for both sides here. If it's not fun for both sides, it's not a good interaction. I have fun as Survivor interacting with all Killer powers. I have fun as Killer interacting with the ways Survivors loop me around tiles. I do not have fun when my teammates are trying to go for blinds instead of help us get out alive. I do not have fun being stunned multiple times in a row and I extra do not have fun when the entire team clearly came in to start doing that. I've had games where if I had not put on Lightborne, I would not have gotten a single hook because they wanted to swarm me with flashlights that badly. I've also had games where Survivors on my team have DCed because they failed to blind, losing us the round from the word go. Is that fun? Imagine being a baby Killer, would you find that fun? Imagine being a Survivor stuck with a team of these useless Flashlight Freddies, would you find it fun? I wouldn't. I didn't when I was a baby and didn't have Lightborne unlocked, and I don't as Survivor when my tam throws for blind clips to style on the Killer and just makes them slug us all in retribution while I try in vain to do 5 gens by myself.
- Why on earth would I argue about a mechanic from only one side of the game, that being Survivors? Both sides are interacting with blinds. I don't think it's fun for either side and judging by the reaction here, most agree with me. HOW did you read my post and decide I was ONLY talking about Survivor side here? I literally asked if it was fun for everyone; "everyone" includes Killers. There are five players in a DBD round, friend.
- Saying my argument is "a bizarre take" and "must be a typo because it makes zero sense" is a bad faith argument and instantly disqualifies you from any further consideration. Insulting me about how well I may or may not do in avoiding blinds is also disingenuous and has no bearing here - while it's true that blinds are usually easy to avoid, that doesn't mean you just get to assume someone pointing out the issues with this mechanic being outdated can't avoid them at all… it's another way to discredit people with the "But You're Unskilled So There!" fallacy everyone likes to drop in this community when they're losing arguments.
- Blinds are definitely not fun for everyone. Some people are even photosensitive to them. I'm advocating their removal because they are an unfun, outdated mechanic and flashlights (along with Blinds in general) could be way more fun if they did something else besides JUST a reflavored stun you can chain-stun with. I am not a fan of stunlock mechanics or mechanics that remove player agency, nobody should be. I challenge you to find one person who has ever played Killer that thinks blinding is a fun mechanic, especially after the Devs JUST fixed broken blind boxes on Flashbangs.
You're no longer worth engaging with, I thought you wanted to have an open discussion about this. but No, instead, you just want to turn this into another us vs. them about how everyone should suck it up and endure unfun, uninteractive outdated mechanics just because YOU find them fun for Survivor.
A shame, I really thought you had something interesting to say and were more well rounded than this.
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I mean, you've added quite a lot to my take there... I don't feel I've taken anywhere near that hard a stance...
EDIT: I suppose my prior post does have a bit more of an aggressive tone... I can only apologise, and attribute my difficulty grasping the talking points as causing me to become a little frustrated, so I might have been unintentionally curt at times... my bad. 🥴
Since there has quite a gross misunderstanding here somehow, do please give me the chance to try and clean up a bit... I was certainly not trying to insult or demean you, and I do apologise if I came across as such.
I've reread your posts again to try and understand what I misunserstood, and your point of saying blinds "halting your movement entirely" still doesn't make sense to me... it doesn't halt your movement, and this apparent negative that you cite for blinds, is followed up with a suggestion that actually halts your movement... I don't think I'm being unfair when I say this doesn't make sense... it's why I asked if this was a typo... I wasn't trying to be jerk or be cute/clever to degrade you, I genuinely don't understand your point here...
My fundamental point is that I do not see the same issues with flashlight blinds myself that you do. Someone temporarily blocking my screen doesn't disable me from still chasing this person, if I recall the map correctly and read their footsteps correctly I can actually gain distance on them, which is much more engaging for me and less problematic than the stun or hinder you're proposing... when blinded during looping, getting hindered every time I break a pallet on someone like Pig would be devastating, whereas on Wesker, I would care a lot less.
The current set up favours m2 killers when it comes to flashlight saves, due to their lethality and ability to push survivors off more effectively, however it does allows players a means to bamboozle m1 and m2 relatively killers equally, and it gives survivors some much needed options to fight against killers who are tunneling... which chain blinds can also assist with.
From the survivor side, I too get annoyed at people going for flashlights instead of doing gens... However I have also seen some really good/successful flashlight players/plays that I think hurts the game to lose as an element. I respect a good flashlighter, because unless I'm in direct communication in a SWF to ensure they go down in an appropriate spot and/or I'm running perks like Background Player, I find flashlights very hard to do on Survivor, and fail them more often that not... I will agree with you that I'd rather they do gens...
However, in the same breathe that is my, and your personal preference... who are we to say flashlight players are wrong/problematic and need to be removed from the game or completely changed to remove the existing elements? Currently flashlights are high risk/high reward, and difficult to use effectively. The players who engage with this mechanic are players too, and we can't just go and nuke a mechanic that we don't get along ourselves, just because we personally don't like it. If we're wanting flashlights to be stronger/more relevant in the game on the flipside, the suggestion can be made... but once again, we're overhauling a fundamental part of DBD, and basically saying all players that want to engage with that on both sides no longer can... any suggestion for that needs yo be VERY clear on what it's trying to do.
Following up on the point of what killers want flashlight blinds you might say? Well I stated it above... killers who would rather have survivors trying and failing to save against them instead of just sitting on gens and cranking 3 of them over the duration of a single chase...
Again I'm not trying to offend you dude... but this debate between us came from me making my suggestion for Lightborn and how it should be changed, a suggestion I still feel is a solid suggestion to improve the game overall... and you saying that suggestion should be nullified, because flashlights shouldn't exist in their current form of the game... which is take I don't agree with... I think flashlights and the blind mechanic are fine, and for the players who don't, we have Lightborn, which isn't a game breaking perk, where my suggestion makes the perk more interesting and actually has some degree of counters instead of its current hard counter status.
Sure some ambiguous amazing idea might exist that could replace it, but tbh I'd probably take it as a separate idea entirely and try to have both.... However regardless the suggestions you've made so far to replace it do not sound better to me, and the foundational logic behind them confuses me... again, I'm sorry if I upset you; it wasn't my goal... but I don't really understand your current argument...
Post edited by UndeddJester on4 -
Jester?
People are disagreeing with you. You're incorrect. Accept this.-11 -
... I mean... I tried to extend an olive branch man...
Guess I just have to cut it there and say "hope no hard feelings" I suppose.
Have a good one.
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i mean, am not a killer main or a survivor main but rather play based on how i feel and whether or not my friends want to play with me. but, from the way you speak. you seem to play one role and it's survivor and nothing else so it is pretty hard to have balance takes around someone who plays only one role. Idk how many hours you have. but i get it if your new and start to dislike some things that are not that big of a deal. it is pretty common.
lightborn just makes survivors play optimally, which is doing gens. it can be boring to not be able to use your flashlights. but it shouldn't ruin your entire day. lightborn doesn't regress gens or take away resources which is pallets or windows. lightborn just means 1 less slowdown or chase perk.
try playing killer, or at least both roles equally. get in high mmr. or else your takes will be biased.
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People get upset over the smallest of inconveniences, it’s just how games have always been; moreso than others. Best thing to do is just brush it off, they’re going to be salty over anything that doesn’t go their way.
The influx of “go next” players is a testament to this statement, as any inconvenience results in them just dying on hook, denying their team even a bot to help them. That’s inconsiderate of the ones who stayed behind to play because their teammate was salty and left them in a near un-winnable situation. Guess that’s supposed to be fine to ruin everyone else’s games because they’re upset something didn’t go the way they wanted it.
Jester?
People are disagreeing with you. You're incorrect. Accept this.
It's a discussion, not a popularity contest; there's other places for that. Seems out of pocket to even nitpick at anything you can considering you're actually the one people are disagreeing with on majority of these posts you've made. It's an observation that didn't have to be mentioned until you had to go and make that reach. Right or wrong, mentioning someone's Likes or Dislikes to prove something is almost as wild as a streamer shaming someone's low following to invalidate the other's points. Should try to be considerate next time.
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I am high mmr in both killer and survivor, and I get iri 1 in both roles as well. Just because I'm advocating for survivor doesn't mean I've never played killer, nor does it mean I don't know what I'm talking about.
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High mmr killer.. complaining about lightborn.. big oofs
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I think we should remove exhaustion perks because it'll completely prevent many killers from interacting with survivors with their power
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- "Lightborn" is a perk left over from DBD's past, where there were instant-mori, instant brand new part, instant syringe, old DS etc etc... it's a perk that would never be designed in this way today, simply because it cuts out a fundamental part of the gameplay without asking for anything in return. I'm amazed that the devs have left it unchanged all these years.
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It's simply a perk used for anti frustration now, like how DS is. No perk would be designed like DS is nowadays either, but back in old ancient DBD times when there was more instant stuff? Yes it was needed. It has now been repurposed into anti-tunnel that can be strong, but is fair. Lightborne's in a similar boat, I think.
Reminder, the Original OoO was free aura all round for the Obsession too. Devs would NEVER design a perk that way either these days.2 -
Again, you are ignoring what I said. What does being high mmr have to do with my ability to discuss how fundamentally unfair the perk is? Leave it to "not a killer main" killer mains to completely ignore overall game balance for both sides...
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The difference is DS can only be used once, is only designed for anti tunnel, deactivates if you do literally anything to progress the game, can be stalled out via slugging, and deactivates in endgame. Lightborn is permanent, prevents an entire mechanic, and is run solely out of spite.
OoO was only changed because of Midwich. I guarantee if we never got that map, it would still be the way it used to be. You're also forgetting that the killer saw the OoO aura as well... another risk/reward perk.
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Ok, I'll bring Franklin's instead. Oh wait, that perk is "boring" too, right?
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Yeah it is.
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How else could the perk work while still being useful?
The main reason to take it is so you don’t drop a survivor during your locked in pick up animation with a bonus of not being blinded during the locked in animation of kicking a pallet with some aura read.
Maybe it could still blind but you don’t drop a survivor? I don’t think that would really change too much though.3 -
If you want talk about balance, there are better things to complain about lol
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sometimes i get the daily short where i see a survivor bully a killer with blind after blind and sometimes it's a group of several of them, doesn't seem like a good experience. Id rather have them rush gens and leave than deal with that.
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i do miss distortion with all the aura reading spam there is.
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Keep moving those goalposts!
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Serious question: Are Killers EVER allowed to bring anything to counter items, in your eyes? Or is doing so "boring and sweaty"?
If so… why? Survivors get to counter Killer powers, why can't Killers have options to counter the equivalent of "powers" for Survivors in the form of items? Everything in the game is supposed to have a counter; Franklin's and Lightborne exist to do that. So do Weave Attunement and Two Can Play sort of. All three of them take up a perk slot that could have been better used on something like a chase perk or gen perk; the Killer is not taking perks like these to ruin your game or win harder, but to counter items. These are the ONLY four Perks that do something like this in the Game, and they aren't exactly common. They're there for less skilled Killers to take if they want them to help handle things like excessive blinds, medkits, etc. or to use as an optional perk to handle teams that focus on using strong items. It is okay to have things that counter mechanics, and item use is a mechanic.So what, exactly, is the issue here? It's just game balance…
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Ah, sorry, didn't see your post here!
DS is usable once per round only because in the past, it was abused when it was unlimited - there was no counter except "slug" for Killers, and that wasn't fun, so it changed. Lightborne has a counter - don't use your flashlight, stun another way. They aren't even close to the same problem here. You never need to blind to stun a Killer, and you never need to use a flashlight to win a round. Flashlights are supposed to be optional. Picking up Survivors is not supposed to be optional.
I promise you, I am not running Lightborne out of spite. I'm running it because I am Autistic and thus very sensitive to certain light patterns; the blind mechanic can hurt my eyes if done repeatedly, so I run Lightborne to prevent that. I'm sure I'm not the only person running it for sensory reasons. Other people run it because they simply don't want to deal with a mechanic they find unfun. As Survivor, I throw on stuff like the hatch offerings for much the same reason - I don't want to have to hunt for the hatch, I find that mechanic unfun.
OoO was a bad perk design, having infinite aura on the Killer is not good perk desgn. It would be horrendous enough as Killer, it's still not good as Survivor because comms exist. You're not intended to know where the Killer is at all times; some Killers are even based around not knowing where they might be. Nothing to do with Midwich.
I think you may be an older player who misses the days when Survivor was truly unbalanced and too strong. Times have changed. It's time to adapt now. The Devs are likely not returning the perks to these forms or removing a perk that frankly, is just used as antibully or antinuisance, and eliminates a slot for frustrating perks like Pain Res or Pentimento anyway.
As per editing my posts, I edit them to add things, change typos, or improve clarity so as not to spam the forums with multiple responses. I also edit it to re-write phrases that came off as too harsh, so as not to start further arguments. There's nothing insidious about editing a post to fix it and make it more server-friendly, or add ideas to it!1 -
You can bring whatever you want, I don't care and you're making this way more emotional/personal than it needs to be. Still doesn't change the fact that it's a boring perk.
Also, it's not comparable because survivors can't tell what killer they're going against. The killer however, can see items and take perks to make them useless.
If you think survivors should be happy that they have a chance to waste their item every game I don't know what to tell you.
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First of all, DS hasn't been "permanent" since patch 2.6.0, which was back in March of 2019. It has had a cooldown ever since, and has been getting nerfed since then too.
Secondly, you just flat out ignored my comment on the context around blinds and doing things that aren't gens or hooks. You flashlight save someone to keep them in the game because the goal for the survivors is to escape. Going for a flashlight blind to save someone is helping the team achieve their goal of escaping. I can't spell it out any more clearly than that. Just because picking someone up "isn't optional," doesn't mean you should be able to do it for free, especially when there is an entire mechanic designed to punish killers who are on autopilot and not paying attention to the match. It's like you said, they fixed the flashlight and flashbang hitboxes, so if you are getting flashlight blinded as a killer, it is 100% a skill issue on your part at this point. Doing generators "isn't optional" for survivors, yet if I were to say that there should be a perk that ignored gen regression and slowdown for survivors who don't want to interact with those mechanics, I would get downvoted into oblivion, yet this is the same sentiment your argument has for lightborn.
Thirdly, accessibility options should always be tied to in game settings rather than being an afterthought in perks. R6 Siege added an option where their flashbangs flash to a black screen rather than a white screen. DbD should have a similar setting implemented to help those with varying sensory needs.
I wasn't saying whether or not OoO was good or bad perk design, I just stated how it was and the reason it was changed. It was changed because you could permanently run the killer (if they didn't have movement abilities) around Midwich and they would never be able to catch you. After the community began to abuse that, it was changed. Those are the facts. It was a lukewarm perk that was able to break a specific map, thus it was changed.
I think you may be an older player
I don't see how this is relevant at all. You are attempting to discredit my stance and my opinions because I've been playing the game for longer. That is called ad hominem. If you're going to throw shade, please do so at my arguments and not me as a person. I get iri 1 on survivor every month and iri 1 on killer when I feel like playing killer. I know how to adapt to this game. But again you are ignoring what I said. It's a question about the why and not the what. WHY is lightborn the way it is because on paper, it is not a fair perk for both sides. Just because you don't run the perk out of spite, doesn't mean everyone else isn't.
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This. I don't want to be saddled with teammates that are busy doing this and getting destroyed for it rather than on gens, and I don't want to be the Killer on the other end of this forced to do nasty gameplay tactics like slug or run perks like Franklin's - I don't even LIKE Franklin's.
I suspect most players are in the same boat as me, and that this is what people are talking about when they say that chain blinding, or a stun into a blind, is an issue. There isn't a need to do it, and it's not fun for the Killer OR other teammates who have to deal with Survivors that sandbag this way. It's not actually more helpful to your team than a pallet stun or a normal blind, it's actually just bullying baby players for the sake of getting points and maybe a "sick" Youtube short. It also doesn't work on experienced Killers who WILL just slug you, and it's the entire reason why Lightborne is still in the game.
Post edited by LockerLurk on1
