http://dbd.game/killswitch
Update to Haste and Hindered
Comments
-
If I hook all survivor bots who abandon match it will be win to me?
Survivors who abandon match = draw
Killer who didn't abandon and hooked all bots = win?
0 -
I will say I am a little sad that this change didn't go through as I've seen how much difficulty haste and hinder effects can add into making things balanced. Chase is just such an important aspect of the game, and even small tweaks in speed really add up (pun intended). Hopefully there can be some other solution for haste/hindered stacking in the future.
1 -
It really seems like the abandon match conditions were developed by people who don’t play the game. These make no sense at all.
5 -
This follows a long pattern of BHVR getting overwhelming feedback in support of an idea and then doing something completely different. Very frustrating
3 -
First off, that survivor would need to make his way back across the map to manage to blind you in time when you slug that final survivor. Second off, what you're basically saying is to NEVER hook a single survivor EVER because God-forbid you might be blinded by a flashlight. If you're that paranoid of flashlights that you need to slug every single survivor you come across, then you're beyond hope. I don't know what to tell you. For the rest of us who don't like to be slugged by toxic killers, it's the perfect solution. Just like Lightborn is the perfect solution against toxic beamers, but apparently that never occurred to you. Can't go through life being afraid of every possible scenario.
2 -
You need to stop. There are legitimate reasons a killer would slug. First off, hooking survivors is straight up disadvantagous. It wastes a crap load of time and it activates the most OP perks in the entire game for survivors. they even made hook states 10 seconds longer and by the way good teams absolutely use those 10 extra seconds to slam the hell out of gens. Secondly you realize that because of hatch being the way it is, the killer has to slug if they want the 4k right?
There are a number of other situations where the killers has no choice but to slug.
Stop acting like anytime the killer slugs you they are kicking your dog, or doing it because they want to be mean to you. Holy crap man, get a grip.-2 -
This post (in relation to the OP) deeply confuses me. If abandonment doesn't affect MMR in a way that's reflective of the win/loss/draw table that's been shared, then isn't the entire OP meaningless in respect to abandonment? As others have said, the devs never give answers on what officially is a win in DBD, so MMR has become the system that we gauge victory by. If this table doesn't have a strong relationship with the MMR system, then what was even the point of sharing this information?
Indeed, if you want me to care about this table in terms of what it says about what constitutes a win/draw/loss, then at the absolute minimum I would require a similar table describing what qualifies as victory for every configuration of survivor escapes, deaths, or bleedouts for all individual players in that game. As far as I understand it, no such table or rule set which could be used to create such a table exists. This is a large part of why people play towards MMR, because it's the only objective win condition rule set that can be measured against.
0 -
All survivors are down and this becomes a draw? What? How did NO ONE on the team immediately look at this and pointed it out as #########? Is DBD developed by bots?
Look, I get that bias is a thing but mother of holy. The catering to survivors is starting to enter bizarre territory.
2 -
No, that survivor, and any other survivor won't need to run across the map, since it will be a 4man flashlight squad, that on purpose runs together, not even trying to split up. Good luck hooking anyone. They can even do gens in your face and you won't be able to stop them. I guess they will bleed out eventually (or complete all gens, i'm too lazy to count time for that)
As many times was said here, both by killers and survivors - "i should not be forced to run certain perks to counter this"-1 -
Please allow Killers to abandon the match when Survivors spend more than one minute in the exit gates with nobody leaving, or when all gens are finished without the Killer getting at least 5 hooks. Nobody wants to stay in a round that is a total stomp and it really should not be up to one player to force others out when one side is obviously trying to grief.
I agree the current abandon system can be abused to smurf, by both sides. Just make it so that abandons do nothing to MMR, gain or loss, I don't understand why they affect MMR at all.
The MMR change had BETTER be to make it linear gain/loss so that a bunch of wins do not then equal twenty stomps in a row, I am sick of having a string of good games either side and then having to suffer a bunch of really nasty ones just to get back to a point I do not have to sweat constantly. The MMR change had better also include making the emblems and pips DEAD simple to get, so people aren't encouraged to sweat for pips.-1 -
No, you're right, you shouldn't be forced to run a specific perk to counter toxic behavior, but you shouldn't be able to employ toxic behavior in return either. Two wrongs don't make a right. You know very well what you can do to counter a 4-man flashlight squad, but you'd rather complain about your right to make the game unfun for everyone else than simply do the logical thing to prevent them from making it unfun for you.
I run Lightborn every single match with every single killer. I think it's fun. I've encountered flashlight squads and I've mopped the floor with them and laugh my head off doing it as I imagine their jaws dropping when they realize I have Lightborn on and they have no other skills to help them get through the match. And I think to myself, "It serves them right" because they brought it on themselves by using toxic gameplay tactics.
But I also can't abide killers using toxic gameplay tactics either. At least killers have a perk to defend against flashlights, survivors have nothing to defend against slugging.
Edit: Fixed typo
Post edited by Apostrophe on1 -
No mither? Unbreakable? Exponential? Their own team mates? I think there are many ways to counter slugging.
2 -
As previously pointed out, if abandon does nothing for MMR (like it currently does when survivors abandon when all are downed) this can be used to prevent MMR dropping which would lead to inaccurate MMR scores putting people on brackets they shouldn't be in. For example if the last 2 survivors are downed next to eachother, both abandon and both get out the match with MMR not effected when they were about to be hooked which would have caused a drop in MMR.
1 -
I stand corrected. I always forget about those perks because of the very specific conditions required to use them (getting lucky enough for fall in the boon's radius, Unbreakable's 1-time limit, and No Mither making you Injured 100% of the time.) So yeah, I guess there are some perks that can help counter it, if you're willing to put up with the limitations.
-1 -
In the next patch surviviors can win just simply hiding lol!
3 -
This is a…. very weird way of implementing these ideas. I've seen a lot of people raise good points about how this can be exploited by either role.
Then what do wins/draws/losses even mean? The win condition of the game has always been a nebulous topic in the community, and many people have used MMR changes as a way to have some kind of uniform measure in what defines each outcome ever since ranks/emblems/pips stopped being the main contenders. On survivor you could argue that win/lose could be simplified to a binary of escaped/died (which would completely remove the entire draw aspect in any event) but as killer there are "degrees" of winning on top of losing. Draws then have to be forced into both roles pools due to how these outcomes are designated. The way most of us seem to be understanding it is that win/lose/draw outcome definitions mean literally nothing except what message you get at the tally screen, if they're not even (directly) tied to a tracked (visible to the player or otherwise) metric.
It's all very confusing, and anathema to how win condition outcomes have been both illustrated and discussed within the community and officially.
Also, not a fan of the stacking revert. I'm hoping its due to not being able to iron out the healthiest values to compensate for the lack of stacking at this time. From a design standpoint, minimizing stacking is the key to reigning in a lot of extremes in the game for both sides, and similar limitations like the exhaustion system have proven very effective in the past. I can understand if its just a matter of working out things like how all of the on demand +/- factors work (like clown bottles) and/or things like replacement vs additive timers, but I hope the idea isn't getting scrapped.
3 -
i agree with the idea of making turbo slugging less abusable. But your solution creates an abuse for survivors, that actually forces killer to slug all survivors till bleed out. That's why it's hard to implement antislug/tunnel/camp mechanics. It needs to be done in such a way, that survivors can't weaponize it
-1 -
Wait. So I, as the killer, down everyone and they all abandon match - I can’t abandon without it saying I DRAW??? I clearly won, why tf am I being punished for them leaving?? Does anyone on the BHVR team actually play Killer?? I LOSE if they don’t touch gens for 10 min???? DO YOU GUYS PLAY KILLER?? I’m so sorry but what tf?
6 -
I really don‘t get the drama everyone’s making about the abandon feature and I‘m sure the devs will do whatever is right for their system to work.
3 -
No it's fine, even OP with some combos
-1 -
Because you choose to abandon a stalled match that you could have won instead. Draw is the correct result in such instance. A draw for being the last remaining human survivor is a bit strange however, for sure. Then again their official match outcome results aren't meant to match MMR gains and loss (for whatever reason) so at the end of the day it doesn't really matter and we need further clarification from BHVR.
0 -
Also, you say I shouldn't care about a hidden number…. but what else am I supposed to care about instead? BHVR still refuses to give us a post-game VICTORY or DEFEAT message, that tells us which side won the game overall.
For example, if the killer gets a 3k, did they get an overall VICTORY? If so, then why do we get a vague "Ruthless Killer" message? Am I not supposed to care about whether or not I actually won the game overall?
0 -
May you continue seeing 4 anti-engine perks then
0 -
I think it is done this way to somewhat mitigate MMR before basekit anti-slug measures are added. Slugging is by far the biggest reason why people who shouldnt be in higher MMR's still reach higher MMR's. While it does take skill to mass slug against SWF, it doesnt take much skill to slug against soloq.
The abandon feature is already meant to be a temporary bandaid fix, it will just make sure that survivors dont lose MMR because of mass slugging, and that killers dont gain MMR from mass slugging or even lose MMR from mass slugging.
I dont believe the abandon feature will come up as much later on in the DBD lifespan.
If you care that much about MMR, then you simply shouldnt abandon. Just because they're bots doesnt mean you should be lazy. The survivor picked the draw option, you dont have to, you still have to go through the same actions regardless if the survivors abandoned or not and you choose not to.
As for the 10 minutes one, I cannot think of any single match where 2+ survivors are capable of hiding for 10 minutes without the killer having been able to check every nook and cranny of the map. And with 2 survivors left, I can kinda see that happening sometimes, but then it would effectively be an MMR tie as you already won against 2 survivors. You're only drawing/losing against the survivors who have not been sacrificed yet.1 -
I don't either. It is a fine system and they will do whatever is right for it to work. I really have nothing but good things to say about the feature. It's even better system than I thought it would be when I was asking for one. Nothing better to do but worry I guess?
1 -
How abysmal would your mmr have to be to even encounter survivors hiding for 10 minutes straight just to impact an invisible number? Or will everyone pretend that fringe 0.001% occurances are commonplace, like how everyone says they go against a 4 slowdown nurse every game and every how survivor is in a 40000 hour SWF / has a selfcare & urban evasion troll build? Besides it's a bad system that has never worked properly, the broken surrender logic impacts absolutely nothing at this point.
0 -
Would it really be so bad if an abandon will always = a loss regardless of which role does it? What’s the point of making abandoning a draw in any scenario ?
2 -
so we're rewarding survivors for not playing the game (just hiding, not touching gens) and we're rewarding them for losing the game (all going down)
I am a surv main and this is the dumbest thing I've ever read. I loaded a killer match a week ago and 10 minutes go by of not seeing a single survivor and no gens being touched (legit saw no survivors all game), so of course I abandoned. And that's a loss to me??? Because people wanna play hide and seek in public matches??? If this goes live I'm losing all faith in this game
1 -
It's already live, has been for a while. Since abandon feature was introduced it had always been this way but apparently the end game screen doesn't show this which is something they intend to change. But the loss for killer after abandon has been live for a while.
-1 -
I do believe I said this would happen... I said killers wouldn't throw a match they are winning. last 2 survivors hide for 10min then killer has a choice of taking a loss with abandon or remain in the match for a chance to win eventually...even if it takes up to an hour. Looks like many killers won't abandon due to it being a loss which is exactly what I said would happen.
-2 -
Am I not supposed to care about whether or not I actually won the game overall?That's basically correct. From BHVR's point of view you can as much win a trial of DbD as you can win the Sims. You have various goals and the value you attach to those goals is up to you.
Now its not how I would design a game, but it is a way that a game can be designed. Deathgarden was even more confusing so I think it's a design that BHVR likes.
The mistake on BHVR's part in this post / earlier in the forums was ever mentioning the word 'loss' at all and now they seem stuck.
1 -
I'd rather take gen defence perks than boring haste abusing Clowns/Singus, enduring+spirit fury abusers, or insta pallet breaking bullshit with Fire Up+Brutal that affects chases and makes them unfun!
-2 -
Of course some killers won't abandon. It could be treated as a win and some killers wouldn't abandon. But we have no idea on frequency.
I have no plans to change abandoning matches when the prompt appears if the survivors are hiding out.
I think a far greater worry is that people abandon intentionally to tank their MMR, even if that is not what abandon results in that is currently the impression.
0 -
This is why I can never get my real life friends to play this game. Every PvP game I play with real life friends, has a very clear VICTORY or 1ST PLACE message when we've won the game. People that like clearly defined win conditions aren't going to want to play this game.
2 -
No Gen Perks = GenRush That's why everyone uses 4 anti gen perks
What you said is completely false.0 -
Well I'm calling it now, if the abandon remains as is then be prepared for a lot of a matches where survivors are avoiding gens and hardly any chases occure. Already some people have seen a rise in whole matches of non engaging gameplay where survivors hide and the killer is wandering around for 10min then losing after 10min.
I would like to point out no one needs to abandon to tank MMR. They just need to lose...killer lets survivors win and survivors let killer kill them to tank MMR.
-1 -
I see this method as the least weaponizable way possible. If you remember when Behaviour was first planning their anti-slug mechanic, they wanted to make it so that if a survivor was not hooked within 45 seconds of being downed, he would immediately go back from dying to injured. THAT was weaponizable. The dying survivor could just crawl under a pallet and wait out the 45 seconds while his teammates stand by to get the stun if the killer tries to pick him up. And let's not forget your fear of flashlights. Just wait out the 45 seconds because if the killer tries to pick you up within that time, your teammates will blind him.
My method avoids those issues. You don't get free health state back after 45 seconds, you only get a free health state back if every other survivor is down. And it's only the first person who was slugged, not all the teammates, so the killer isn't going to be swarmed by survivors with flashlights, it's going to be the one survivor who has been down the longest, who is likely very far away on the map at this point. There's also nothing stopping the killer from putting two or three survivors into the dying state and then start hooking them, he just can't put ALL the survivors into to the dying state at the same time. Surely you can avoid being blinded by a single person with a flashlight to start hooking survivors.
And I'll be honest, I'm least concerned with turbo slugging as much as the toxic gameplay tactic of slugging the last two survivors on the map to secure the 4K by preventing survivors from finding the hatch. The hatch exists for a reason, to give the last survivor at least a chance to make it out alive and it the way the game was designed. It annoys me to no end when the killer cheats and abuses the system by slugged me and making me lay there doing nothing because he needs to hunt the last survivor first to make sure they don't get hatch. By making sure that the last two survivors can't be slugged at the same time, it ensures a fair game for the survivors by allowing them at least a chance of finding the hatch.
Edit: Fixed Typo
1 -
No, it's better this way than clutch killer chase perks!
0 -
People that like clearly defined win conditions aren't going to want to play this game.I guess the obvious counter argument is that people who don't like clearly defined win conditions wouldn't want to play if they changed it. You can't possibly please both groups absolutely.
Like I said, it isn't how I would have done it, but seems to be the design a lot of asymmetrical games go for.
0 -
Well I'm calling it nowWhat would happen is pretty obvious
If 10 minute abandon equal killer loss - killers will be less likely to take it and survivors more likely to hide
If 10 minute abandon equals killer win - killers will be more likely to try and hold a 3 gen as an alternative win strategy
Both of those are just normal human behavior.
It's only if the abandon equals draw or the abandon equals ???? that how people will behave is a little uncertain.
I would like to point out no one needs to abandon to tank MMR. They just need to lose...killer lets survivors win and survivors let killer kill them to tank MMR.Except in this situation the killer still gets to play the game and feel like they win. It would be very boring and take a long time to just load into matches and intentionally lose.
0 -
I’d argue those people are holding back this game. The whole “everyone can be a winner” mentality isn’t good for the game. We could literally have a game of 5 players, where all 5 players honestly believed they won the game. How is that reasonable?
2 -
I think it's evident what people would do if the abandon is a draw. Survivors using abandon to get a draw instead of a loss when they are downed is a testament to that. People will pick the lesser of the 2 evils, if they can't win, next best thing is draw.
the whole point to abandon option for killer is so they can get out of a match survivors are taking hostage by not doing their objective but anti hiding in phase 2 of qol updates is supposed to deal with that so why even have abandon? Strange that it even exists. If it's a win killers abuse it, if it's loss survivors abuse it, if it's draw survivors abuse it because for the survivor it's better to try get the killer to settle for a draw than win. There is no good scenario.
-1 -
It Should Be
DRAW DRAW DRAW DRAW
Or
LOSS LOSS LOSS LOSS
DRAW LOSS DRAW DRAW is survivor biased, idk why the devs who designed it didn't come to the same conclusion. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
-1 -
I'm sidetracking the thread from its intended goal of all of us yell at BHVR and its poor community managers (edit: I mean poor as in long suffering not poor as in bad), but to go into game design theory:
Most games (video, sports, board, etc.) employ a simple binary win/loss, with the occasional draw. The goal of players is to figure out the best ways to achieve victory.
However, this design can be argued to be simplistic and not really capturing the full range of what people enjoy / strive toward. Take a horror movie as an example being that's DbD's basis. A 'survivor' in such movies usually has three goals
-survive
-help others survive
-destroy the monster
The third one is totally off the table (they tried it in Deathgarden), so we're left with the first two. Let's imagine survivors had a clear win condition and it being 3+ escape. Well if 3 are at the gates they just leave, if 2 are there, 1 is dead, 1 on hook, then a rush at the hook no matter the risk and if two are already dead, well what's the point of playing?
On the other hand if the win condition is survivor escape = win for them, the others don't matter, well then being altruistic in the end game doesn't serve any purpose.
Having a singular win condition would be clearer, but I think a lot a less interesting. Having multiple 'win' conditions means players have to put their own value on different issues and risk what they have for the possibility of more
There are a couple of ways a game could approach it and BHVR dips their toes into all of them. You could tell players that the degree of victory is important, so a major victory is more valuable then a minor victory (the board game Diplomacy is a good example of this). You can give them something else to play for, such as bloodpoints and pips, so you have a goal of 'winning' the trial, but you also have a goal of accumulating blood points (which used to be a much bigger motivator). Or you can say that there is no pure win condition, just different goals.
As I said, its not how I would do it, but people look for different things in games.
Post edited by crogers271 on1 -
If a killer decides they want to do a "slugging challenge", and decides their win condition is to let every survivor bleed out on the ground, then according to you, that is 100% acceptable, because this player put their own value on different issues and risk what they have for the possibility of more.
If a survivor decides they want to do a "final girl challenge", and decides their win condition is to hide the entire match, and just watch all their teammates die, so they can be the final survivor that is alive, then according to you, that is 100% acceptable, because this player put their own value on different issues and risk what they have for the possibility of more.
0 -
As much as I disagree with the whole putting your own win condition for the game… dbd has encouraged exactly that. I admit as survivor if I have cleanse 20 totems challenge then I'm doing my challenge and working on totems. To hell with the gens and my team mates lol. If I get a few totems done in the match I scratch it as a win for me.
-1 -
it's going to be the one survivor who has been down the longest, who is likely very far away on the map at this pointDo i need to say again, that NO, he won't be very far away. Because, AGAIN, it is a 4man flashlight squad, that all runs TOGETHER
I know that 45s basekit UB was abusable too. That's why that idea got scrapped. But your idea is abusable too. And 4 man flashlight squads aren't the only way
What about 2 survivors left, both camping the pallet? Pick up ⇒ Pallet save and run to the next pallet. Can't down them both. Damn, you can't even realistically bleed them out, since they can just heal tech each other and that stops bleedout timer
Upd. DAMN, i just realized something now. They don't even need to camp the pallet. They can just heal tech each other anywhere on the map and there is NOTHING you can do to stop that (outside of a few killers with specific powers). That's even more abusable, than 45s UB. Well, i guess you can abandon after 10 minutes?-1 -
then according to youI've said in every post this isn't how I would do it.
I understand why they did it the way they did, there is a logic behind it, some people enjoy it, and it is likely one of the reasons it takes so long for the game to become stale..
But again, and I don't know how I can be clearer about this, it's not the way I would do it.
If a killer decides they want to do a "slugging challenge", and decides their win condition is to let every survivor bleed out on the groundIt's absolutely okay according to BHVR.
decides their win condition is to hide the entire matchNow we get into something BHVR has made a statement on that this is against the rules. People must engage in the trial and hiding out the entire time is a violation.
However, to give a hypothetical, if two survivors were hooked, one survivor was dead, and gens spread out: remaining survivor has an option, save the hooked survivors and have a decent chance at finishing the gens, or let the survivors die and have a high chance of getting hatch, BHVR says both options are absolutely okay and valid ways to play the game and which one is a 'win' is totally up to the survivor.
1 -
2 things.
1: A lot of perks got an unlisted change, in that they changed from modifiers to haste, which is a far weaker bonus! Clarifying if those still be changed to haste is very important for proper feedback!
2: The current Abandon system is so bad for MMR that the best killers in the world are slowly digging down into brand new player MMR and below while any survivor that isn't killed first (which is the LEAST representative of someone's skill, the killer just has to focus someone sometimes!) cannot lose MMR. It is already affecting me, who took a 2+ year break so I have a lot of characters to prestige still, a lot. I don't abandon so I can squeeze the most points out of every match. This already means I'm constantly getting teammates with less than 1k hours because they just don't know what the abandon feature does. I've been left on hook for no reason already.
The Abandon System legitimately needs to be emergency disabled and everyone's MMR needs to be brought back to what it was the day before the system was implemented. Or at least as close as possible. You do not want brand new players who bought the game for FNAF going against 10 million hour slug lords. It needs to be a more nuanced system than it is now before it's implemented again.
0 -
If a survivor DCs at any point in a match, they can never lose?!?!?
And if killer DCs when survivors arent doing objectives, they lose???
Incredibly survivor sided
2
