http://dbd.game/killswitch
Let’s Talk About the Upcoming Anti-Slug / Anti-Camp / Anti-Tunnel Changes
Comments
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I might be less rude to people if people didnt gaslight me, or try to get me to explain the obvious or give a play by play of crystal clear logic. Trying to talk to some of the people in the community is like talking to a brick wall. They dont listen and engage in bad faith. So yes, I have very little patience for some of the people on here because I have tried explaining things before only to be gasit.
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The most straightforward answer here is just, spreading pressure and utilising macro strategies (EG, zoning with pallet breaks, creating and capitalising on deadzones, approaching from odd angles to surprise survivors, using utility perks for opening up new options, etcetera).
There's a lot more to the killer experience than trying to leverage unfair scenarios to your benefit as much as possible, it is possible to hone fundamental skills that aren't problematic.
Though, I have to imagine BHVR aren't going to remove slugging entirely, if they're even addressing at all (because as a reminder they called the abandon feature anti-slugging lol) they're probably looking at trying to slug everyone before you ever start hooking.
Also obviously gen defence is allowed.
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Except "Spreading pressure” is literally the combination of gen defense, proxy-camping, injure/down/slugging, everything that ACTUALLY hinders generator progress
Of course you can improve general game sense like knowing spawn location learning chase skill and all such, but those really aren't "strategy" imo, viable basic strategy in this game is always one of: snowball and slug-all, tunnel one quickly, 3 gen complete defense, or literally just killing everyone super quick to the point hook itself will be "spread pressure", And they are dumbing down first three while keeping last one which is most difficult to do
Biggest chance would be it won't be something THAT big just like abandon feature, I guess
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Gen defense is very, very weak right now though and thats one of the fundimental problems with the games balance at this point. It is part of the reason people started slugging so much in recent months. That and to avoid activating the strongest survivor perks in the game which arent terribly fun to play against IMO. Also, because gen defense is so weak, most killers dont really have time to spend significant portions of the match carrying survivors to hooks.
Some killers may have slugged and tunneled before gen defense was crippled but the thing no one wants to talk about is that there is a huge difference between want to and have to. THe people who wanted to do those things have allways done them, but you saw a huge increase in slugging and tunneling because the people who didnt want to now had to.
Also the same thing could be said of survivors, because they leverage fundamentally unfair scenarios against the killer too.-2 -
Camping is literally the opposite of -spreading- pressure.
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Honestly I don't really know what other strategies to use when tunneling isn't allowed, camping isn't allowed, gen defense isn't allowed, and even slugging isn't allowed?I think this is what people mean by doom posting.
Like gen defense, that's allowed. There's a limit, but you can certainly use a tight 3 gen as part of a strategy as killer. People act like if you hit the gen cap limit you automatically lose the game. No, you'll still be able to do all of the things they are working on 'anti' strategies for, they'll just likely be minimally harder.
In comparison, survivors used to be able to play to escape via the hatch and ignore the doors entirely. That (rightfully) was completely removed from the game as a strategy.
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Spreading pressure is not those things, no.
Spreading pressure, at least in my eyes, is best defined as the following: "Forcing or heavily encouraging multiple survivors at once to do something that isn't gen repair".
This derives from the best (imo) definition of just pressure, which is "a survivor that isn't doing gens".
So, camping is the exact opposite, you're only occupying one survivor with that. Spreading pressure post hook is getting into another chase as quickly as possible, so three survivors are occupied when one goes for the save. That's the most basic, barebones version of spreading pressure any killer can engage with if they're playing well (though how well is the minimum tends to be what separates killers in strength), but if you think something else counts for that definition, it probably does.
Getting better at this would involve a whole lot of things, but one of the most important is knowing where survivors probably are. This can be bolstered with info perks, and I recommend everyone run them, but it's also a basekit skill to hone as you get better. If you're wandering around without being in chase or heading towards a likely chase, you're probably doing something wrong, with some exceptions.
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I don't think gen defence is weak, at least not overall.
The perks are weaker, but even then, most of them work perfectly well as long as you're using them to support basekit slowdown, not replace it.
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gen kick slowdown perks and really gen kick perks in general are dead. Pain res isn't great either. Pentimento is deader than dead. There are a small handfull of perks left but those were the weaker gen defense perks to begin with. Eruption, Call of Brine ect are looooooooong dead and should never be made as powerful as the used to be ever again. Base regression speed is a bad joke as well. Corruption is out because hex perks are god awful.
I think you and I disagree. Killers have very few options for gen defense perks that havent been gutted yet, and those perks still arent great, they are just the last ones standing.-4 -
Its pretty obvious that the posters saying things like Pain Res and Pop are weak or not meta are clearly just making things up at this point.
The people saying they are weak have nothing backing up what they say and everything against them. They know it as well, its just noise/bait at this point.
We see it in the highest level of play, normal level of play, any level of play. These perks are good.
Maybe these players are just not that great at killer? whos to say. But gen slow down perks are not bad and certainly are a large part of effective meta.10 -
Theperksare weaker, but even then, most of them work perfectly well as long as you're using them tosupportbasekit slowdown, notreplaceit.They're weaker, but the level of response doesn't make sense.
If I understand the pain res math:
Old pain res you can get 90 seconds reduced with 4 hooks.
Current pain res you can get 72 seconds reduced with 4 hooks.
18 seconds (4.5 per hook) is definitely a nerf, but it hardly makes the perk dead. Over a large number of games it will impact the stats, but as a percentage of matches for an individual player where it made a difference would be very small.
Maybe these players are just not that great at killer?I forget who said it, but many killers will think the game is balanced when they personally can go 50/50 with Team Eternal.
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Don't see the point in arguing about it or talking about possible compensation, if at all any, before we know exactly what we're talking about. We don't know anything about these changes yet.
If it's something absurd like any downed survivor instantly gets up if not picked up within 0.5 seconds then this conversation becomes one. If it's something more reasonable then this conversation becomes another. But as we don't know anything yet then this conversation is just moot imo.
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Thank you for proving my point.
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dude…you’re rude to people. It’s literally self inflicted. I don’t think I’ve seen you even once try to see something from another persons perspective on the opposite side. It’s honestly not even what you say half the time, it’s how you say it. There are two sides to this game of a coin. People will disagree with you. Half your takes would force nothing but gens gameplay-which survivors hate, and killers hate when survivors just focus on gens- it’s like you refuse to see bigger pictures a lot of the time and then bad mouth people in the process. I’m not mad at you, I’m just hoping maybe you take what tie breaker and I’m saying into consideration.
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I wasnt rude to people until people started gaslighting me and responding in bad faith first. The only thing stopping me from giving examples is that doing so would be a violation of the forum rules.
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What you’re doing right now is called deflection.
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You could start by giving counter examples on why you think gen regress perks are bad.
Since people in tournaments use them, the entire meta on data we have available to us uses them, content creators with hours more than 4+ people in here combined say they are good perks, countless tier lists putting these perks at the top, constant stats released by the devs showing them most used…
Make a well structured argument of why all these people/data are apparently just dead wrong and use examples, because every real in game example, documented example, and outlier examples.
Disagree with gen regress perks being weak.11 -
Fine.
First I want to set the record straight because I think you have me confused for someone else perhaps. I have been a proponent to keep slugging around but fix the issues with it precisely because, fundimentally, it demands survivors do somthing other than slam gens like they're Usain Bolt in a track race. Slugging punishes tunneling on gens, hard. Instead you need to go pick up your teammates. It also means more engagement from the killer. More and longer chases. I have no idea where you got the opinion i wanted survivors on gens all game from but that is not true in the slightest.
Adding more to that, I would like to point out that hook states are 70 seconds each. Where is all the complaining from survivors about being left on hook for 60+ seconds while their teammates loop the killer and slam gens? I havent seen any, have you? Curious, that survivors will complain about being left on the ground for any length of time though, and then those same survivors will defend 70 second hook states. Please tell me you see the hypocrisy here. It seems to me that again, people are not being honest about what they dislike so much about being slugged or the complaints ultimately stem from this strategy countering gen rushing, and not triggering survivors most powerful perks. If it's the latter then people are just being sore losers. If its the bleedout times then you know I have said I am in favor of shortening them.
So yeah, I suppose I can get a little rude when people wont be honest, wont focus on where the root problems are, and refuse to accept that the devs nerfing some things can contribute to pushing other playstyles people like even less. I suppose i can get a little rude when people respond to valid killer complaints with "get good" yet do nothing but complain when the shoe is on the other foot. Yeah I can get a little rude when people engage in bad faith by putting up stawman arguments and being disingenuous. And most recently of all, I can definitely get a little POed when someone makes a well constructed post about the problems killers have only to be met with bad faith responses.
For the record none of that third paragraph is directed at you.-3 -
Id like to preface something very simple here:
We dont know what Anti-Tunnel, Camp, Slug will even look like or what they mean by it. We have 0 idea what they are cooking up.
The response by some people seem to be thinking its all downhill, the sky is falling, everything sucks for my side but not yours etc…
We dont know. Its really that simple.
I agree with a lot of what you say about slugging. Its very hard to argue against these points about slugging from the way you have illustrated them., it demands survivors do somthing other than slam gens like they're Usain Bolt in a track race. Slugging punishes tunneling on gens, hard
What do you want survivors to do? When people start using terms like gen rush and tunneling gens, sitting on gens.
What are they supposed to be doing?Instead you need to go pick up your teammates. It also means more engagement from the killer. More and longer chases.
Few things here.
1) You are right, you do need to go pick up your teammates.
2) Unfortunately though you dont get engagement, or chases at all. Slugging, when we are talking about killing the team by slugging out, or using it as a long term pressure relief; You do it to secure additional slugs. The reason for that is other people have to come pick the survivor up and….. →
3) When we start talking about the majority of the player base (soloQ), there are no tools for them to be able to communicate when its safe, where to go, when to come, who is coming, etc…
This is different from other games where you at least have proxy chat or some form of callout system for help on unsecured kills. DBD doesnt have this though.
So as you can imagine people rush to the save, either through a good or bad way. Get slugged, game is over.
High reward, low effort.
It ends up being a way to easily secure victory due to a lack in game design, not so much skill in the end. Which is a problem.
I am guessing the developers did not intend to see it become so common. Hook mechanics are sparsely bypassed and require a bit more from certain killers than the effort it takes to slug. So they probably dislike people bypassing the hook system unless on something like killer powers/addons that require build up time.
You also have to think about gameplay:
The people on the ground, have had meaningful gameplay disabled. If we start allowing minutes of time of just crawling and recovery/waiting, that quickly becomes an issue. The game is just stalled into a win for the killer.The core loop designed by the devs for killers is:
Chase, down, hook, repeatI would like to point out that hook states are 70 seconds each. Where is all the complaining from survivors about being left on hook for 60+ seconds while their teammates loop the killer and slam gens? I havent seen any, have you? Curious, that survivors will complain about being left on the ground for any length of time though, and then those same survivors will defend 70 second hook states. Please tell me you see the hypocrisy here.
This is extremely hard to argue against. But the reason for it is because the comparison you drew here, doesnt happen with slugging. Noone is complaining about being slugged by pig/trapper/hag and then cross map you are all just working on gens.
Slugging with high movement is the problem. You proxy camp it and dont really care about the person on the ground. Chases are fast. You dont get to push out gens as you are under threat by some kaneki/nurse/blight/billy.
And in the end SOMEONE will be coming to the slug to save. Or multiple. So you dont have to proxy too far or much to begin with.
Again, stalled into a win. Not really having to do with skill. Noone could communicate or coordinate what happened.
Lets also be honest with hook timers, do you really think you are getting the full 70 seconds worth of hook time value on your hooks? Like I get the increased the timer change; but 60 to 70 I haven't noticed a difference at all.It seems to me that again, people are not being honest about what they dislike so much about being slugged or the complaints ultimately stem from this strategy countering gen rushing, and not triggering survivors most powerful perks. If it's the latter then people are just being sore losers. If its the bleedout times then you know I have said I am in favor of shortening them.
Few things part II)
I cant speak for everyone else. But slugging versus a hook is a huge problem gameplay wise.
Hook you can just save, instant mechanic.
Slugging you have to wait, coordinate(somehow), person has to recover which takes awhile, and position correctly. Or you just get slugged right back down.
Its pretty obvious here what the issues are with slugging, versus hooking. Too much time investment, too much required on the survivors end(multiple of them), no way to coordinate a save… and ultimately you are still vulnerable to be downed the moment you get up.
BHVR even added protections (basekit bt) so you dont just get downed after unhook, which tells you their philosophy on stuff like this..
Its also not enjoyable. End of the day this is a video game, sure certain things you "arent meant to enjoy" but having all basic function of your character disabled for minutes is a separate category from "I dont enjoy dying".
Reducing the bleedout timer would just incentivize slugging more, not even a question, so I would have to give you hard pushback on that idea. You still end up with bleeding out more.5 -
I don’t have you confused. I don’t really see a lot of people complaining about tactful slugging, what I have seen people complain about is everyone being slugged and bled out for no real reason. Sure you can make the argument that everyone sucks if they all four get slugged, but it’s still just not engaging gameplay. Also being slugged at two gens left while the killer searches for however long to hook the other person just to mori the last survivor. That is boring, and I agree with them on those two points. No offense but I’ve had more fun watching paint dry, and this is a video game. That’s not directed at you, just a general statement. As a survivor I would prefer you slug me tbh because my teammates can get me up, and I’m not one step closer to death. Less hooks is less hooks, and more opportunities to come back.
Most people aren’t left on the hook that long, very rarely. In most matches people try to save too fast from what I’ve noticed giving the killer even more pressure, because they mostly return immediately when that happens because they’re still right there. Good survivors wait for the right moment to save and understand why nobody has got them yet, it’s why they don’t complain. others send their self through stages for whatever reason. None the less whether they are hooked or slugged thats a survivor not on a gen. Do you want them to complain about being on a hook for the sake of complaining about every little thing in this game?
Why would there need to be a shorter bleed out timer? I won’t make assumptions on why you would be pro shorter bleed out; but I can tell you that’s something I’m not for and object to. I trust my teammates will get me up when and if they can.
They nerfed anti-tunnel into the ground at one point, and it didn’t change anything on how killers played, or how often people still brought that laughable 1 sec stun ds. All of them are useless if you’re not being tunneled and a time waster on the survivor side if they’re choosing to make plays out of them instead of getting on gens. Not saying it can’t tip scales, but if you play smart you can mitigate most of it. Survivors not on gens is survivors not on gens. They buffed gen defense so much that it changed nothing on how gen pop played; it just made all the playstyles survivors hate the most even more effective. I would not call anti-tunnel survivors most powerful tools(I don’t even run them because I think there’s much better perks that provide more utility), but to each their own. Like someone else said the goal post just continues to move. Slugging, tunneling, camping are all strats that fall apart when you’re facing more competent players, and especially people on comms. The less skilled survivors already can’t loop, dont know how to counter perks, and don’t know how to counter killer powers it would just be creating a bigger gap for new players.
skilled survivors are going to see it happening, not altruism theirselves to death and gen rush; because it’s the perf opportunity to and the only way to beat it. Sorry to say it but most people capitalize the moment they can on both sides. There’s been a ton of matches where I’ve made it incredibly clear I’m just playing around and not trying to gen rush them and the killer does not care I’m trying to give them an easier match and not make them sweat. It’s rare they’ll be like “oh they’re goofing” and ease up too, they mostly capitalize. So like we can live in la la land but that’s the reality, both sides want to win in a PvP game with chaotic match making due to whatever reason. They tried giving killers all the things they complained about it changed nothing, it looks like they’re going to try it the other way around now, and like others have stated we don’t even know what those changes look like.
Speaking of bad faith earlier I said earlier “they intend to make adjustments for any killer affected by the changes” , and you basically said ”devs don’t care about killer experience” . You, yourself engage in bad faith. You point out a ton of contradictions, but don’t realize your own contradictory nature. I’m not trying to be rude, but like it just says something ya know. You’re holding people to a standard you don’t even hold yourself to, and you let that dictate how you respond to others. should people be rude to you? Again; not mad, just holding up a mirror.
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The devs literally just did a survey they showed absolutly everyone that they do not care for the the things killers complain about, and instead focused only on why survivors quit. There was 0 attempt made to gather feedback on why killer players play the way they do, or any killer players quit, only survivors. That doesnt exactly tell killer players "we hear you too and we are listening", you know. The devs didnt care to listen to anyone on the new OR perks either. Now, killer players who are good enough to be matched with skilled survivor SWFs get to deal with extremely OP Duty of care, and hyper healing builds where any pressure the killer builds gets erased in seconds.
-2 -
I'm really excited to see how the game develops with these changes, I'm hopeful they will be effective enough to bring the focus of DBD to the chase and condition macro gameplay (hooking people near gens you want to defend/pressure etc.) as more common strategies.
My largest issue has always been with hyper mobility returning to the hook because they can't win a chase/can't find anyone within seconds, basically encouraging players to leave survivors on the hook as long as possible, which just doesn't happen in casual lobbies (people want to save their friends/be actually playing the game asap).
I'm not the most savvy person at this game, but I do know from my current experience of playing both sides casually this will hopefully be the right steps this game needs to keep the game flow going and both sides interacting with each other more (the whole point of DBD). I've personally been focusing less on winning and thinking of fun ways to interact with the killer (Head on, Deception, QnQ, Blast Mine) And on killer I play unknown with the alien device (stealth aura) and spawning more halucinations on curses, plus Hoarder/Human Greed/Lethal/BBQ to keep me in chase and to help me get fun shots off using the chests.
I cannot stress enough how much using BBQ again has really helped keep my game pressure going and let me slow gens down ASAP by getting lots of damage going out that they need to reset or get caught off guard by my increasingly oppressive Hallucinations <3
I don't think the Anti-Tunnel/Anti-Slug will hurt anyone who plays this game casually, only those who treat it competitively and too seriously. 2v8 showed as much with its anti-slug/pallet rebuilding/faster+slower gen speeds/aura reveals etc. We can have QoL without it taking away from the main gameplay loop.
I recommend other killer players to do the same, challenge yourself and try new builds and try to find the fun in playing casually, it really helps, plus you won't be as affected by the QoL when it hits anyways, if it's truly denying you the strat in the end as much as you fear3 -
I find it funny that you think killer needs compensation before changes actually go live. I find it funny that you feel killer experience needs anything, considering it has been the power role for years now.
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Where is all the complaining from survivors about being left on hook for 60+ seconds while their teammates loop the killer and slam gens? I havent seen any, have you?I certainly have. I don't even think its that rare.
Additionally, the difference in time is really important. Imagine you are in line for an amusement park ride or restaurant. At what point does the wait go from irrelevant, to a little annoying, to boring, to so long it wasn't worth the wait. It would be different for every person of course, but trying to define the exact difference is really important.
If I'm on hook or slugged for 30 to 45 seconds, its not a big deal. I probably take a moment to drink whatever I have handy, then I survey the field and refocus. Once it goes above 45 seconds, it quickly starts to get boring. When it gets to 90 seconds I'm thinking about why am I in the game, at two minutes I'm planning what I'm going to play that's not DbD once the game is over.
On top of all that, the hook timer is a count down. So right as it gets to that point where it is getting boring, you also get to the stage where a hook rescue becomes really important. There is tension and excitement as you see another survivor rush toward you wondering if they will make it in time.
So yes, people complain about being on hook, but there are two reasons why it is a very different thing.
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So yeah, I suppose I can get a little rude when people wont be honest, wont focus on where the root problems are
Where the root problems are, according to you.
and refuse to accept that the devs nerfing some things can contribute to pushing other playstyles people like even less
Pushing other playstyles, according to you.
I suppose i can get a little rude when people respond to valid killer complaints with "get good"
Valid killer complaints, according to you.
Yeah I can get a little rude when people engage in bad faith
It's not bad faith arguing for people to disagree with you, or hold different views. When every statistical indicator points in a direction opposite to the one you're arguing, you should really not be surprised when people don't accept your anecdotes as superseding evidence. That's not 'bad faith'.
stawman arguments and being disingenuous.
Where are the strawman arguments? Please point them out.
Adding more to that, I would like to point out that hook states are 70 seconds each. Where is all the complaining from survivors about being left on hook for 60+ seconds while their teammates loop the killer and slam gens? I havent seen any, have you? Curious, that survivors will complain about being left on the ground for any length of time though, and then those same survivors will defend 70 second hook states. Please tell me you see the hypocrisy here.
Buddy, one is 2 minutes and 20 seconds of incapacitation that can be skipped. The other is 4 minutes of incapacitation that cannot be skipped.
They are leagues apart.
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For months I watched endless thread on endless thread be made where killers talked about why. They’ve got plenty of feedback, but also sure they probably could have handled the survey better. Let’s think logically though, they’re not having an issue getting killers to engage or ready up, they’re having an issue getting survivors to engage, every single time I get on there’s a bonus for survivors to get more people to play it. Sure some killers can be buffed or have some stuff added to their kits to keep up.
As for duty of care and healing now might be a good time to make some anti-healing builds, use some killers with good traversal or that haste perks work well on. Survivors get told to adapt all the time. What’s that only four perk slots? Don’t want to be forced to play a way you don’t like?(not speaking directly to you, I can just feel some things coming) the devs were cooking no haste stacking and people on both sides protested “something something devs shouldn’t limit builds, and there goes fast boi clown” sounds like committing to chases will be the play. So maybe a good anti-loop killer. I would not recommend a stealth killer rn.
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You assume the devs really pay much attention to the forums and that is something I am not convinced of.
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Just chiming in here for a couple of notes.
Fully agree that they have announced nothing on these mechanics, so almost everything is speculative.
Imo, "anti slugging" should target exactly and only 2 main things: what I refer to as "excessive slugging" and "slugging for the 4k".
Slugging for the 4k is pretty self explanatory, and could also be targeted by reworking hatch (again).
Excessive slugging is generally slugging as a strategy (not using hooks at all, deliberately, and not simply because someone is lurking for a save, for example), or slugging to bleed out. Generally this is everyone slugged to bleed out, or possibly one person being humped on the ground for 4 minutes.
And while this is just my opinion and speculation, these are the kinds of questions they asked about in the surveys, so at minimum there is evidence the devs are thinking about these cases also. What that mechanic looks like, I have no idea (nor does anyone else).
Secondly, there is exactly and only one reason I ever see anyone use the phrase "tUnNeLiNg GeNs", and that's because it's a phrase from a content creator who generally complains incessantly about survivors, and people who watch this person just mindlessly repeat these ideas. Even and especially when they have no basis in reality.
All this phrase actually means, is the killer not pressuring survivors, and it's somehow simultaneously the survivors' fault. Period.
In reality, if the killer is afk, survivor gameplay is "do gens and leave", and it's on the killer to give the survivors something other than gens to focus on (this is pressure). That can be a lot of things: killers power, "interactions" (body blocks, saves), healing and recovery, hexes or other perk counterplay, but usually the primary one is chases and hooks (one in time out, one going for save).
Any time I see someone say survivors are "tunneling gens", they're expecting and demanding that survivors do nothing until they're ready for them. Most of these people will hard tunnel and play killer like it's comp, even using "comp" as justification for why this play style is "necessary", while deliberately ignoring that comp survivor is literally "gen rush, pre drop, run to comp corner" with situational "body blocks or saves".
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Huh? I said "tunneling gens" without even thinking much about it. I have no idea which content creator you are talking about and I dont really care to know as I dont watch dbd content creators very often and have little loyalty to any of them, though there is one I absolutely despise and I can assure you, he absolutely earned my ire.
-3 -
If it were up to me, the best way to encourage 12 hooking people properly is to remove the hex status from Ruin and turn it into a regular perk. 100% automatic gen regression until a survivor dies, then it deactivates for the rest of the game.
Boom, easy. Now killers have a huge incentive to try and spread their hooks around for as long as possible.
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I wouldnt call it a huge incentive. Base regression speed is awful, practically useless even.
-1 -
you are literally using fundamentally flawed data extracted from matches where matchmaking throws you into a pit with people with most random skill levels possible and with so many external factors polluting that same data (giving up, trolling, SWFs intentionally playing just to make killer mad even though they get 4Ked, heavy skill levels mismatch etc.)
-3 -
You can't have strategy that is against survivors rule book. I don't know why we need killer players at all and not go with the bot for every game.
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Its just a wierd thing to say because tunneling is a term used to describe what a killer does to a specific survivor to eliminate them from a match.
Its a way people attempt to equate the two things when they are nothing alike.
And then of course not answering what they expect survivors to even be doing.
Just an odd thing to say "tunneling" gens. They are just doing their objective as they dont have anything else to do.
Unlike killer, when they target and remove someone from gameplay as quickly as possible, aka tunneling.Yea I dont know what they will do with their plans. Tunneling, camping and slugging that is.
Wont effect me on killer as I never really do it so I dont really care. I guess if I am not paying attention or everyone is using the same skin it might happen with tunneling, theyll have to figure that case out.
Survivor any change is welcome thats for sure. Im particularly excited for lobby loadout on my teammates finally.
Theyll have to figure out something for tournament skill level, as this is the only exception really, which people like to pretend they experience that level of play to justify these strategies, rather than admit any fault in their gameplay.
Its funny as all the people who justify these types of strategies have never actually shown their gameplay. Kind of tells you something about the things they say. Meanwhile I have put up plague, legion, nurse, artist and survivor gameplay on this forum all the time.
And yea… unfortunately false equivalency, and just false takes in general are often used as a distraction talking point rather than anything genuine. Its like a rapid fire of stuff in hopes you dont look anything up yourself.
They try to get you to talk about something else as they realize their argument is dead in the water. Like "gen regress perks are bad" or "Pain res and Pop arent meta"3 -
I say it that way because the phrase "tunneling gens" is an attempt to do two things.
It's a false equivalence, first. Survivors doing gens is not the same as killers going for survivors. The only thing these two have in common is that they're each teams respective objective for the match. That's where the analogy begins and ends.
Gens aren't a player, they're a PVE element. Technically it's a timer on the match, in a sense. There's no "the gen didn't get to play the match because it got finished first". That doesn't work.
Gens and hooks aren't even close to working the same. Hook stages are permanent, there is no perk, item, add-on, or mechanic that removes a hook stage from the match. Even StB moves it to a player exactly once (who announces loudly that it's happening), and does not undo that hook, even for people who misunderstand how the perk works.
Gen progress can be completely undone from 99 to zero at any time, can be taken in chunks (even base kit kicks now), regression cannot be instantly stopped.
And once a gen is complete or a player is dead there's no going back. That is progressing the match.
If survivors could "kick" a hook and remove hook states over time (regression), or gens would lock in and be unregressable every time they hit the next third of progress people would lose their minds, and even with those these two things still aren't identical.
The other thing this is attempting to do is shift the burden to imply that survivors are doing something they shouldn't be.
The default survivor gameplay is to do gens unless or until the killer gives them something else to do.
The core game is survivors reacting to the killer, not the other way around (although back and forth is common once PVP interactions come into play, like mind games, predictions, or game sense elements). Tunneling and camping is the opposite, generally leaving 2 or even 3 survivors alone (to do gens) while putting maximum pressure on one.
So that is why I say you haven't thought about this phrase.
But maybe you can give some insight, since you've been asked twice now and conveniently ignored the question both times so far:
What should survivors be doing?
Because the answer is clearly "not gens" in your mind. And, at least going by the tone of the general forums, survivors:
- Shouldn't be hiding (need to be near gens so the killer can find you easily).
- But not doing the gen itself.
- Shouldn't do anything that provides a benefit to the survivor or the survivor team (no lurking for flashlight saves, boons, body blocking, etc)
- Shouldn't do anything that is a detriment to the killer (sabo, cleansing hexes, body blocking, interacting with the killer power)
- Shouldn't be healthy, but should take as much time as possible to try to heal (health states are op, but you should need the full team to heal one person so they aren't on gens)
- Definitely shouldn't pre drop, or loop, or hold w, or pre run
- But shouldn't be giving up either
- And never, ever use any perks. Technician might be ok since you aren't touching gens
Which basically means survivors can open chests, but can't take anything that might be useful out of that chest.
But maybe I'll be surprised, so again: what do you think survivors should be doing?
2 -
When killers stop playing the game and queue times expode, BHVR will panick and do another 6.1 and then slowly nerf everything they gave killers in the new 6.1 patch like they did last time.
-9 -
This checks all the doom post boxes.
Killers will all leave the game. ✅
Killers will be blanket nerfed ✅
Which didn't happen in 6.1 (gen kick meta came directly out of 6.1, on top of basically 10% to all killer action speed, slower gens, and nerfs to the biggest survivor meta perks).
But I'm curious in this fantasy world you've constructed: how exactly do you think that nerfs will bring back killers?
I get that you're just saying inciteful things because "killers should only ever be buffed and never nerfed" in your mind, but at least read what you wrote.
7 -
tunneling gens means that you are allowed to finish a gen, when, following survivor rule book, killer is not allowed to finish a survivor.
-5 -
"Tunneling gens" is an ignorant statement that doesn't try to even major differences, let alone nuance, which I clearly outlined in the post you didn't read.
BTW, survivor "rule book" only exists because it hasn't been addressed. The "killer rule book" stopped being talked about because the devs targeted and eliminated all of those complaints already, many of them years ago.
ETA: and exactly who is allowing them to finish a gen? Seems like there should be someone in the game with the job of pressuring survivora and giving them side tasks so they aren't able to just do gens, perhaps.
Post edited by AmpersandUnderscore on2 -
survivors complain about killer going for objective as quick as possible = reasonable, here is 700 anti-tunnel and anti-slug and anti-everything that the killer can use to gain leverage on survivors
killers complaining about survivor efficiency = killers fault, stop complaining, what else are survivors supposed to do
lol-3 -
You're phrasing it in a very aggressive way but like… yes?
It is reasonable to be annoyed at killers leveraging a basekit problem to get people out ASAP, and it's not super reasonable to be annoyed at survivors for just doing their objective normally.
The better comparison to tunnelling would be survivors bringing toolbox builds, because they're are massively unbalanced and give huge reward for little effort. Complaining about that would be reasonable, complaining about survivors just generally being efficient isn't, really.
10 -
Still waiting for an answer to "what should survivors be doing other than gens?".
Because killers can spread pressure between multiple survivors, and have comeback builds and mechanics. There are end game builds designed specifically around all gens being completed.
As I mentioned, survivors, apparently can stand afk in the open, unlock chests, and maybe cleanse dull totems (as long as you aren't running inner healing/strength and not every totem, in case the killer has noed).
5 -
im not phrasing it in a very aggressive way lmao… when the killer goes for their objective quickly in response to survivors doing the same thing it is seen as a problem that must need fixing with 2 million new meta anti-tunnel perks and mechanics. if you ever complain about it as killer you are gaslit by others who will tell you you're just a bad player and those strategies are never needed ever.
its funny not only due to the fact that the same treatment (behavior-wise and balance wise) is NEVER given towards survivors, but in fact killers are blamed for complaining about survivors doing their objective quickly. it is literally never the survivor's fault-5 -
there are two ways survivors can do gens just as there are two ways the killers can do their objective. survivors can group up on gens which is less efficient than splitting up. if you want to go tit for tat then this would be the equivalent of a killer spreading out their hooks because both strategies are less efficient. or they can split iup on gens and completely assfuck any killer who doesn't have mobility (haven't seen any basekit changes for that yet). the killer equivalent is tunneling and camping, because that is more efficient. you just want survivors to be able to play however they want and want the killer to be beaten repeatedly with a club for wanting to match that efficiency in any way
-2 -
yeah tbh if the changes actually change anything toolboxes, gen progression perks, and base heal speed should probably be looked at. Maybe rework anti-tunnel perks if anti-tunnel actually does its job. It’s going to further drive Higher tiered killers up, so I’m more in the buff the weaker killer camp to keep up than nerf survivors and shifting around power more, when they can just buff weaker killers to keep up in some way.
-2 -
I just explained why that's not a double standard, yeah.
Killers going for their objective quickly is unbalanced on a system-mechanics level.
Survivors going for their objective quickly is unbalanced only if they bring a specific build.
Complaints about those things are completely valid as long as they're levelled at the thing that's actually unbalanced.
1 -
Toolboxes for sure, I don't think the other two are a problem necessarily. Even if you stack a whole build dedicated to gen speed perks, you get half of what a toolbox gives you, and that's only on specific gens after spending time setting it up.
Base heal speed is definitely not a problem. Heal speed increases… could develop into a problem but I don't think I see one with it now.
4 -
so are you implying that tunneling is just an easy OP strategy that anyone can win with by saying it is unbalanced? because unless you are playing a killer above A tier, tunneling is actually hard if you would like to fathom that due to the amount of endurance, body blocks, and other mechanics you must push through.
and ok, you are right. they simply dont compare. so when I load into the match as ghostface or trickster and see three survivors split up on three generators I can rest assured that it is balanced because they didn't bring a specific build. are you seriously saying that the only way gen speeds can be unfair is when survivors bring specific builds like 4 BNPs? because that tells me everything I need to know-1 -
No, but I am stating explicitly that it's easier than the alternatives, and it is unbalanced. It warrants changes.
Survivors spawning split up is another edge case where you can have trouble with generators, but I do feel the need to point out two things:
1: They're fixing that in the QoL roadmap, so it's soon to be a moot point.
2: It's not generator speeds that cause that, it's early generator efficiency. It's a small distinction but it's very important, because if survivors spawn together then speeds aren't a problem.
As a final point, the build can be broader than specifically BNPs. A good toolbox with one or two supporting perks is enough to cause serious issues with gen speeds.
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