http://dbd.game/killswitch
Let’s Talk About the Upcoming Anti-Slug / Anti-Camp / Anti-Tunnel Changes
Comments
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Babysitter: I've tried running this a few times and 'unhook anti-tunnel' has a few things going against it:
1: Like all altruistic perks, it has the downside of if you're the tunnel target its useless.
2: If the killer isn't tunneling, it doesn't really have any value. Compare this to something like 'We'll Make It', even if the unhook needs to run away, you still get good value out of it if you heal anyone else (which very well might happen if other survivors run in to body block).
3: Ensuring you're the one to get the unhook when it is needed can be tricky. Not only in soloq might someone else get the save, but even in a SWF if the 'unhook build' is spending a lot of time going for the unhook, either going cross map (risk of getting caught) or chasing the chase, that's a lot of time off gens.
4: Babysitter should make the killer drop chase unless its a killer with a lot of mobility. That's great if its a pure tunnel, but having them switch targets has its downsides. Lots of players will say OTR and DS correct for survivor mistakes, but if you have those perks getting tunneled isn't a mistake. It's going to eat up so much killer time pursuing the target. Babysitter leads to the killer dropping chase and redirecting it to the nearest target (which is probably you, the unhooker, so running this you also have to be confident that you can take chase).
So it falls into the category of 'situationally game winning, but usually not relevant'. I was running this once and hit a Nemesis who was tunneling, I got the survivor unhooked after the second hook, and the Nemesis committed to the chase, which won us the match right there. Lots of times though I just heal a survivor as the time ticks down.
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I mean, thats fair. I usually only ever saw people using it offensively. IE they would get unhooked then start bodyblocking every which way until they get picked up, then LULZ DS, then off they go.
That being said, I always felt it was more of a skill expression. If I'm unhooked, I almost always have enough time to get near a loop, and if I can't make it, DS is enough to get me there after getting picked up, again. I dont really think DS should be a guaranteed get out of jail free card - it should have some sort of thought involved when using it. Almost every aspect of the game is often in the survivors control including where you're going down. If there's a dead zone, then it's best not to be near there unless the survivors ended up 3 genning themselves in a dead zone which again, is up to the survivors on what gens they do. Then again, I feel that some sort of thought and plan in mind should be present in about everything in the game, but I'll admit I do have a tendancy to overanalyze things. Huzzah for being high functioning. :/
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I agree! I've scrimmed a bit here and there out of curiosity when I was more serious about this game, the Community for it is lovely and respectful even to those who play the lower tiers. It also really does wonders for sharpening your gameplay in pubs, I learned many of my best M1 chase tricks and looping both sides from it. But it's still not the majority of the community. The majority is average joes who play pubs and aren't all that good, make mistakes, aren't perfect. People just are not on average seeing these super strong teams and Comp players that often.
That means "But X Killer is weak and struggles against strong teams!" fundamentally means nothing.
Those average down times also track for the majority of public matches on average too, about a minute is the AVERAGE chase time. If you're sub one minute on any Killer consistently, especially on an M1 without a lot of chase stuff, you're doing phenomenal.
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You don't get to control where you get hooked, nor do you control what the Killer does after you get unhooked.
All you've said is that DS kind of helped people who didn't need help and did nothing for people who actually needed the assistance.
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As a survivor, you don't control which hook you're hooked on, but you definitely control the area where you'll get hooked. Some sort of loop or vault is almost always near any hook. Im just saying the proper use for DS is after you're unhooked, and if the killer is focusing you, and you know you're going down, ensure a vault or pallet is nearby. Thats what DS is for. They pick you up, and bam, hop off and you instantly have a new loop between you and the killer. A lot of survivors just would equip DS, get downed again, use it, and just be completely out of place and just get downed again within seconds due to not bothering to think about a plan. If the killer is chasing you, you chose where to lead that killer. Use that to your advantage. Me, I like the basement unhook perk, so if I know I'm going down, I'll usually position myself where the killer will likely try to basement hook me. That entirely removes the pressure from my team to have to come rescue me. Am I out of position and in a deadzone? I put myself in that position - that's on me, so to take advantage of a bleak situation, I'd run myself to a corner to try to avoid having the killer hook me in a centralized and easy to patrol area. That last gen almost done? I run him as far away as possible from that last gen to buy that survivor as much pressure free time on the gen.
Survivors have a lot of control over what the killer does. While we can't have them hook us at specific locations, where we are chased is absolutely in our hands. He either follows us to where we want him to be, or he realizes what's up and gives up chase.
That's why a lot of maps had hook locations changed, because survivors could ensure they go down in places where they cannot be hooked. Thats also why strong survivors can consistently run killers for multiple gens without getting downed - they think ahead and don't just blindly hold W. Loops are very powerful against almost all killers save for balance breakers like nurse.
So yes, you are at least correct that DS wasn't helpful for survivors who don't have a plan. For those with a plan, DS is enough to extend chase for more time thanks to using it properly near a loop. That's not a DS issue, that's just inexperience. There's a LOT to learn in DBD, so once you start thinking ahead and have a plan, your survivor potential skyrockets in comparrrison to holding W.
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thanks for clarification, my bad in this case. Now this would make it interesting for BHVR to push some stats like this one and makes their chase time detection mechanic come under great question mark. Does shift teching count as end of chase timer BHVR uses for stat? Or any kind of chase cut by other factors than specifically downs and then starting again
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You don't get to control what resources remain on the map, that is up to your teammates. You do not control where the Killer goes after they down you. I would make it a point to hook people inside of areas I knew to be dead zones.
If someone wants me to chase them in Shack, for example, I am not going to hook them in basement unless I believe my reward for doing so will be greater than the risk I incur for putting them in a strong structure.
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See, now you're getting it. Those resources used are up to the survivors, like I've been saying. The survivors essentially dictate how the match will play out. Make poor decisions on what gens get done, you end up with a bad 3 gen. The survivors decide to throw shack pallet at the very beginning of the match? Survivors choice. Killer chasing that survivor into a deadzone, up to the survivors experience if he's observant enough to spot the trap. That last gen almost done and a survivor being chased decides to run the killer right to that gen? Again, a conscience decision by the survivors, and a price to pray. Everything needs thought, including DS on how to use it. We shouldn't have perks that just erase survivor OR killer mistakes. Perks should be used to supplement a plan, not to erase blatant mistakes and, "hey. Lets just pretend that didn't happen and get a re-do." Good survivor plays involves thinking.
Now, I am not pro survivor. I'd say I'm pretty average, but these chases I have every opportunity to decide where I drag the killer and ultimately where I'd go down if I went down. Granted, I make a BIG mistake dropping killer shack early, but that's on me. Like I said, I'm average.
Also, here some extra credit of just a silly chase, just for fun. Having to time weskers audio queue of bringing his arm up can be tricky but hilariously fun if you pull it off.
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This is thinking in a vacuum of perfect order on the survivors end.
You dont get to control what area you go down or you get to control where you go down, heavily depends on gameplay and killer. Not just experience.
Killers zone you all the time, and with recent map changes, often you are zoned just out of a lack of places to go. We are having issues with 1/4 to 1/3 of the maps spawning with no pallets or extremely weak ones (yamoaka side of main for example and thats it).
Your thing about DS is true if I know what resources are available to me at what direction. Sadly though as @Pulsar states, unless I am ALSO running windows, or have some form of communication, or saw my team the entire match. I dont know what my team has used on the map.
It quickly turns into current nostromo. Where the only plan, is to hold W and make it to the corner ship, and if not you are just dead everywhere else.3 -
These changes must be implemented first to see how gameplay is a effected. I am quite certain that if the numbers heavily favor survivor, the devs will work something out. I think it is perfect right now with killer kill rate at 60%. I think the desire to quit at all will be diminished for survivors.
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Map design INDEED leaves much to be desired, I'll agree there. Some of the changes they made are just...odd (talking about you Ormond). There are definitely killer favored maps as well as survivor favored maps. However, thats a map design issue, not a perk issue.
Now just to clarify, I almost entirely play solo queue, so I almost always run WOO as I'm not certain what resources the other survivors are using. Again though, it's about having to adapt to situations. If you have bad survivor teammates, then it is what it is. The problem about having perks that erase survivor mistakes due to bad survivor teammates is that those perks still exists when survivors aren't playing poorly in which which the advantage is already in the survivors favor (unless it's a blight or nurse, I'm a strong believer in nerfs for blight and nurse).
Overall, I think the notion that "I have DS, so you can't touch me!" is flawed. DS gives you just enough time to get to another loop. Just having it equipped shouldn't mean god mode. If you don't use it right, yeah, it should go to waste. Be smart about it's use. It's not some afk idle game. Now, if you did happen to run yourself to a deadzone where the nearest vault is in another zipcode, you outplayed yourself, or the killer did a godly job outplaying you - he planned ahead. Who plans has the upper hand. If that area of the map is that dead, understand that leading the killer there will have consequences - you'll be in danger of getting tunneled with little options, but that's your choice to make. Just having DS shouldn't be an instant get out of jail free card just because you have it slotted in. Use it wisely. Think. Plan.
It's no different than getting hooked in basement. If you get basement hooked, you were either way out of position (thats a danger area to be in range), or you made a risk vs reward call (usually when looping shack with basement). Looping shack basement, you'll either reap the reward or pay the price. Again, it's all in the survivors control including these situations. If the resources ran dry early, survivors wasted those resources too quickly. Thats why it's sometimes smart taking a hit or even an early down if it means saving a god pallet for the endgame. One of THE first gens I do first is shack gen, as shack can be vital in the endgame, and the last thing you want in the endgame is for shack to have a gen in there needing done so looping it isn't viable. Again, it's all about survivor decisions.
Post edited by RpTheHotrod on1 -
Yea I mean there is a couple problems with it as well think you touched on the last one
1) It's not in the literal sense, but if you dont want to deal with it, the game forces you to take stuff like WOO as you just cant comm/coord
2) Perks become the answer to game design flaws/lack
Like heres this clip from just a few minutes ago. I could have gone down pretty much anywhere or gotten hit. This is just one example, albiet nurse, where I really dont have a choice.I just have to delay and …
wherever that delay leads me = me down
Obviously nurse, but there are more examples where I just dont have a choice what happens here. This situation was entirely up to this nurses skill.
This billy you have a BIT more agency but again, its a top tier killer so you dont really have a choice where to go down, you just delay them on what you have surrounding you.Or this one where I dont really have a choice I only have openings to move somewhere based on billys power
Like I am stuck at these rocks until skill issue applies for him I cant go anywhere. Luckily I found an opening and then made it to shack and fake looked straight and spun. I didnt have shack as an option until he made his move several times here. I had to wait.
I feel like what you are talking about where survivors have more choice to go down, is on the weaker killers in chase. Which is a bit more true.
But also depending on whats available as you and I touched on earlier.
And of course skill, can only be so humble on my end. As well as the killers too its not just mine.3 -
I legitimately feel the nurse breaks the game balance. They can bypass pretty much every feature in the game that's designed to make the game fair. Thats definitely a problem, and I definitely think she needs to be reworked or, at the very least, nerfed. With nurse, Survivors have very little control or choice in the flow of the match and thats a huge problem.
I'll say i had a weird match vs a nurse yesterday. We were on the stranger things map. I had the duty of Care perk along with the perk that gives me longer injury speed time along with being able to self heal in the basement. We would focus on a gen, I'd ensure I'd get a protection hit. Suddenly all survivors would just run at 100 mph well beyond a follow up blink diatance, and since I run 3 seconds longer, I'd also be out of range. Then I'd heal in basement, then we'd rinse and repeat. We did this until she ran out of gen regressions on that gen. She could only ever get a single hit in, then everyone would just group haste speed off into the distance, heal up, and return. She surrendered after she ran out of regression events. Was such a bizarre silly situation. That new perk is ridiculous XD
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Just was able to watch your vids. Well done! While those killers have a blatant advantage of being able to surprise you (and in turn make it easier for you to be out of place), do at least keep in mind that when facing those killers, that's something to consider. If you're in an area with little loop potential, alarm bells should already be going off. I try to always position myself where IF they do show up, I have options.
Speaking of nurse, you'll love this one!
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I'm in the same boat, I really do not think this is gonna make Survivors much stronger than before if it only impacts the worst forms of these things. If it impacts more, there's going to be problems. But if that's what's needed, and it makes Killers weaker than before, then those Killers WILL need adjusting. In either case we probably see more buffs for weaker Killers and a QoL improvement for both sides. I don't even like feleing like I need to tunnel or slug to get results and sometimes, it feels like I have to on some Killers. Removing the option entirely and just fixing stuff has to be the solution here, they have TRIED everything else.
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Now just to clarify, I almost entirely play solo queue,
Not calling you out but… this match you arent lol. This is also pretty old of a clip, 3 Distortion stacks, RIP.
Nice totem hole though for sure.
But yea its something I have been a big proponent for, hard nerfs. Sadly people dont agree on the forums that she needs a hard nerf to her kit.
This is coming from someone who mained her for years and its just silly the kinds of hits you get.
Faster killers though, you really just dont have many options. Even weskers dash is enough to zone you out of options. (not saying wesker is imbalanced, im just saying it doesnt have to be nurse tier for chase control to be in the killers hands)If you're in an area with little loop potential, alarm bells should already be going off. I try to always position myself where IF they do show up, I have options.
Oh for sure. Its just you dont know that always due to LOS + no WOO, comms.
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Like I already clearly stated, I almost entirely play solo queue. That was WAY back when (as you pointed out), and those people were just random survivors that invited me into their discord after a match.
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It would be an interesting question, but I also think impossible to answer.
I will say with a reasonable degree of certainty that BHVR is defining overall time in chase per trial as time that the chase timer is on. I can't think of any other way or any other data they have that could be pulled.
It gets to be a tricky subject because like most things in DbD, numbers need context. You could compare/contrast first down times if BHVR released that data, but that has a few problems. I earlier mentioned how a quick game that the survivors win would have a low amount of overall chase (gen rush), and a long game that the killer wins would a high amount of chase (killer gen slow down / gen defense), which gets to the idea that the result is more important than the numbers.
With first downs an example of how that could be a problem would be: if a survivor goes on a chase for 90 seconds, and two gens pop, and in an alternative scenario the survivors trade off body blocks and heal each other and it takes 4 minutes until the first down, and two gens pop, presuming the same amount of resources spent and no progress on any other gens, well the two situations are equal.
Average chase time would be almost impossible because there would be so many outliers that would need to be thrown out. An example: I was playing against Sadako the other day. Because of a daily I know exactly how much chase I was in, 15 seconds. I also escaped (2e, so not a hatch escape) and never went down. I was in three 'chases'
Chase 1: Early game, Sadako comes across another survivor and I, we split, she chases the other survivor
Chase 2: The other survivors just unhook and are healing. I run directly into Sadako and try to lead her to the other side of the map. She hits me, but then doesn't pursue.
Chase 3: I try to body block for a survivor on death hook hoping she takes the free tag, but she phases through (allowing another survivor and I to crank out the last gen).
So my overall chase time was 15 seconds, and my average chase time was 5 seconds, but none of my chases were 'bad' (other than that maybe I should not have been so obvious in chase 2, but it accomplished its goal). And even if you average out the chases between the other survivors who had pretty solid chases against her, the extreme low times would really throw it off.
And there's lots of other problems that have occurred to me as I typed this: how would you measure a killer that breaks chase because the survivor is headed to a strong loop, how about a short chase but the survivor pulled the killer away from the gens, a shorter chase but the survivor intentionally went down under a pallet, etc.
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"Cause comp is the most representative of the balance of the game"
"tournament does not allow multiple perks, some perks are banned and there are the same restrictions for items/add-ons."
So, which is it? Is it a good representation or is it not? Because these things cannot both be true.
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But it’s also important to ask:
why do killer players rely on these tactics in the first place?It’s often a response to game design pressure. Many killers feel they
have no other viable optionsdue to gen speeds, strong survivor perks, and increasingly nerfed slowdown tools.
Exactly!! Looks like I can't play killer any more, since I won't be able to tunnel someone out. If I hook everyone twice, I still lose.
This will make a lot less people play killer and leave the game. The alternative is play 2v8, which isn't a permanent game mode.
Killers need some help from the developers. Playing killer is difficult and often unrewarding.-2 -
They need to improve many perks and many killers, but that's not going to happen. We'll see pure Billy/Blight/Nurse lobbies.
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no way you just said tunneling has very little counterplay… you silly billy why would you think that…
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3 sec ds was still s tier meta perk, people didn't know how to use it correctly so we had people like you saying it was bad and it got buffed again. such is the case with many many survivor perks in this game
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That shouldn't really be a controversial statement, honestly.
What counterplay do YOU have, specifically, to tunnelling? Specifically I'm talking about solo queue survivors, what do they have access to, reliably, to beat tunnelling?
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the counterplay is called getting better in chase and running either DS or off the record instead of just joining the bandwagon of people who try to imply that tunneling is the most overpowered and heinous thing in the entire game
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I've never understood this argument. Isn't it obvious that you're agreeing it's unbalanced and needs changes?
I mean, survivors have to be significantly better in chase to beat tunnelling than the killer needs to be to attempt to tunnel them, AND they have to only run three perks for the rest of the game. Is that not a very clear-cut example of something heavily favouring one side?
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no u silly billy… that's how countering something works…. and if you counter it the killer loses the entire game because ur teammates do generators while you fend of the tunneling POS. and both sides need to run certain perks, just like the killer has to run gen slowdown, this is not old news
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Well, that wasn't the question, though.
The question is, if the counterplay is significantly harder for you to perform than it is for your opponent to do the thing you're trying to counter, is that not unbalanced? Additionally, if the counterplay requires specific perks on top of being difficult to perform even with them, is that not unhealthy for the game's variety and player expression?
Those are the two questions being asked here. Hell, if you think the killer needs to run gen slowdown, surely you can understand how that's not great for the game and should be adjusted.
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Having to be exponentially better than the opponent to see value is not how proper counterplay works. Likewise, even if you ARE exponentially better than the Killer and do successfully take them on a run; you still need your teammates to do gens, which is completely out of your hands.
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no, it is not unbalanced, because if you become skilled enough and can do it then it causes the killer to lose the game. next question
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ok ur right the gens should do themselves while im getting tunneled
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What about before you're skilled enough? When you're just average at the game like everyone else, should you just be expected to lose by default until you're out the other end in the top ranks of players so you actually get to play the game?
There's a degree to which scrub-killer knowledge checks can be reasonable in a game, but it should be within your power to counter them if you actually have the knowledge, which you can't with tunnelling. The killer just gets a massively easy chase on you… end of sentence. There's no "but you can do X". You just have to be better than them by orders of magnitude.
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when youre new to the game, you die alot. some strategies require skill to beat and new players don't have that. don't see this complained about in any other competitive game
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Absolutely, in most multiplayer games there are strategies that require skill to beat.
In most other competitive games, the amount of skill required is proportional to the amount of skill your opponent is putting in. Some scrub-killer things are fairly easy to perform, but they're also typically not that difficult to counter either once you know what the trick is.
That's why tunnelling gets the complaints. There's no trick, and the skill required to beat it is extremely disproportional to the skill required to do it.
You don't have to be a Master rank tournament winner to beat E Honda's headbutt. It's a knowledge check, not actually massively unbalanced.
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Blatant absurdism fallacy.
If you want to actually have a discussion, let me know. If not, I'll save my energy.
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idk what to tell you, its balanced out by the fact that 99% of the killers who do tunnel and need to tunnel like m1 killers will eat ######### against a player that knows how to counter it and it will result in a loss. there are plenty of strategies in every game that are easy to perform but if your opponent knows how to counter it it will screw you over and they'll get the win
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2 second DS was a bad perk. Even now, DS isn't the greatest perk, but it's fair.
Ad hominem attacks do nothing for your point. It seems all you have are feelings and no facts.
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you dont have enough experience on the game to have a discussion with me I can tell by your points in previous threads
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Alright, man.
I've made my point, I think we're just going in circles here.
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I mean ur asking me why I won't have a discussion with you when you ignore everything I say about DS by responding "it was a bad perk" when it wasn't it was still a meta perk it just required a little more brainpower which survivors are allergic to
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the only person that could possibly explain and make sense of what youre trying to say to me is Firellius, I do not listen to anyone else
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the perk was bad. I get why you killer mains keep saying it was good (because it was easy to deal with) but damn give it up already it’s been at least a year since it got buffed
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why was it bad? because you tried using it against trapper and were shocked to find that it wasn't effective if you ran in a straight line?
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because it was bad vs nurse blight spirit Billy artist pyramid head singularity demogorgon nemesis pinhead Oni (with his power) plague (with her power) chucky twins doctor clown wesker deathslinger huntress etc…. The perk didnt deter killer from tunneling. The perk was bad that killers just dealt with it because it was a minor inconvenience. I’ll tell you when the 3 second ds was useful (when you got a 3 great teammates body blocking, off the record, a good map with a lot of pallets and dead hard). At that point it’s a game delay perk not anti tunneling. And if you need so many things to make one perk work or be effective then the perk by itself is trash
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lmao.
Now THAT is wild.
Bro is trying to appeal to authority with himself as the authority.
Least logical DBD Forum user.
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I can't respond to anything when all you do is call anyone who dares to disagree with you "bad at the game".
You haven't made any points; all you've done is insult people and claim that you are simply better than everyone else, which is highly unlikely.
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lmfao
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1. Anti-tunneling perks (OTR, DS, Babysitter etc.)
2. Greeding hooks if you know hooked person is bad in chases (hooked person >>> dead person)
3. Chase knowledge (this one easily wastes so much time for killer)
With all 3 of these, tunneling is simply impossible unless you make a grave mistake as survivor. All in all, to effectively counter a tunneling killer you need to do the same thing you do against camping killers, waste their time as much as possible.
The main problem of average soloQ survivor is the "i see hooked survivor, i go insta unhook" mindset, and with that kind of mindset you shouldn't be surprised when killer manages to force an early 3v1.
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Yea but survivors believe they shouldnt have to adapt and evolve. They believe that killers should just not tunnel at all or use any strategies.
"Me dumb killer, me chase survivor without downing them for whole match, me no need powers or addons or perks or strategies cause me dumb killer"
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I appreciate the answer.
But, we do have to put some caveats on those if we want to be fair. In solo queue, you can't rely on Babysitter, you can only rely on DS and OTR. That brings the list of perks down to just two, but really, the number doesn't matter because it's obviously bad for either side to genuinely need to run perks or they lose by default.
For the other two, I'll tackle the last one first - chase knowledge in this case isn't as important as actually having chase skill, which is a different statement and one I already made my counter points to up above. It is, unavoidably, a pretty big imbalance for a very easy tactic to have very difficult counterplay.
Greeding hooks I'll potentially grant you, in the sense that it's more of a game sense thing and even though you can't rely on it in solo queue it's more fair to consider that the "sometimes your teammates throw" kind of universal solo queue problem. However, it is important to note that greeding hooks alone doesn't beat tunnelling, and only even kinda works in solo queue if the killer's also camping the hook. If they're already in a chase and just want to double back when the unhook happens, greeding the hook is just sort of the same risk it usually is and doesn't really solve anything that makes tunnelling problematic, which is all centred around the vulnerability immediately after the unhook.
If you plan to leave someone on the hook until the last second in solo queue, and your teammate in chase goes down sooner than you expect, your attempt at countering tunnelling potentially lost you the game. Granted, this is one of those things that's just going to be true of solo queue no matter what, but with tunnelling's major problems actually laying in the immediate, micro gameplay elements, I think it's probably fair to leave that part as it is and focus on the major problems.
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