http://dbd.game/killswitch
I fear the anti-camping and anti-tunneling changes are going to be too late
This is certainly not a doom post or anything. DBD is doing quite fine and is not going anywhere for the foreseeable future. And I also actually do not believe solo queue is as bad as some people make it out to be, it sure has it's issues, but it can still be a lot of fun and escaping is definitely possible.
But as we all know, DBD is about to have a huge gain of players thanks to the FNAF chapter. And with that we will especially see a gain of new killer players that will want to play as Springtrap. But there surely will also be a big gain of new survivor players that want to go against Springtrap, as well as try survivor out just in general.
However, tunneling and camping are almost as strong as ever, with little effort required on the killers side. These strategies are very easy to pull off, and strong, which is why quite a few killer players resort to these strategies.
I think this will cause problems in two ways. For one, the potential gain of new, long term players will be less because of these strategies. New survivor players will play some matches, go against a tunneling and camping killer one too many times, and be done with DBD.
And this will also lead to the problem of longer killer queue times, possibly for more than just the first 1 or 2 weeks after Springtraps release. Because many of the new killer players will have less reason to not be interested in DBD after they play some matches. Of course, killers also have to deal with certain frustrations every now and then, but none of them are nearly as prevelant as tunneling and camping are at the moment.
I just think it's a shame BHVR wasn't able to address these issues before the FNAF chapter. I do think that once these changes do happen in the second half of the year, it will bring back quite a few survivor players, which is of course a good thing. But it would have been nice if tunneling and camping was already much less of an issue for the new players that are going to come with the FNAF chapter.
Also, two side notes: I personally think the go next prevention shouldn't happen until these anti-camp and anti-tunnel changes happen as well. Unless the go next prevention can somehow account for not wanting to go against such strategies.
And second, I can only pray that Springtrap is very fun to go against on the survivor side. If we get another Kaneki situation, good luck even finding killer matches.
Comments
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Fully agree here. The Anti-Camping and Anti-Tunneling measurements are planned from July to December, so it might as well just happen in December. And this is a long time.
Since you mention queue times, I would also say, especially because of queue times BHVR should have started with those measurements earlier. I mean, they are obviously aimed at a surge of new players, this is BHVRs main motivation behind them. Which is not good, but better late than never I guess. Because in the end, no surge of new players will stay if their Survivor experience is miserable.
However, in regards to queue times - it should have started earlier. Because FNAF will be a nightmare for Killer queues. It is a very popular chapter and it is a Killer-only chapter on top of it. So there is at least no new content for Survivors from the Chapter, so they need something to make Survivors play the game when the Chapter drops. It is not like there will be no Survivors, but I would guess that the queue times will be so bad because everyone wants to play Killer that you will have a similar situation like the current 2v8-queues.
And IMO BHVR has failed to work on that in time. Maybe they will announce something which gives an inventive to play Survivor, but so far it is not looking like it and that means that with FNAF arriving, queue times will be abyssmal for Killer and things which might help with that (Anti-Camping, Anti-Tunneling) are possibly months away.
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IMO these should've been in phase 1. Having them effectively be slated for December is going to be rough.
My biggest worry, though, is that even after waiting so long there's no guarantee these will actually be effective solutions. They haven't announced anything except to call these new changes "anti slug, anti tunnel, and anti camp", and to reassure players that "if they impact kill rates they will make adjustments to compensate".
Even with just that information alone, we've already had people slamming even the idea of looking into these issues. Complain early, and often has been the forums meta for about 4 years now, and it's convinced people that they can get BHVR to back down on changes, nerf before things go live.
I'll also add, that they put "anti camping" on the road map before, and what we received was AFC. There hasn't been a single post in two years about this feature that doesn't involve at least one person saying "it wasn't to prevent camping, just FACE camping". And now again, we've been given yet another black box labeled "anti camping" with no details.
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I agree. Killer queue times with FNAF release will probably be as bad if not slightly worse as the 1vs4 queue times are now during the 2vs8 event. This is why at the very least I am hoping so much that Springtrap is very fun to go against, which will get more people to play survivor. Surely killer queue times will become better one or two weeks after FNAF releases, but probably not as good as they should be in general, until survivors get their anti-camping and anti-tunneling changes.
They also talked about survivor getting a new item I believe, so maybe that will help a bit.
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This is so true. The changes have to be impactful and not just some slap on the wrist. Of course there are biased killer mains that will complain about these changes, even if killers get compensation buffs, but BHVR should know that by now and not restrain themselves from implementing some proper anti-camping and anti-tunneling changes.
As they said themselves, if kill rates change too much, they can buff killers in more healthy ways.
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you do realize that these changes will hurt new players right because these new players are here for the KILLER specifically also knowing bhvr the anti camp anti tunnel is going to make survivors more busted than they already are
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I think it’s a shame that so many people have the attitude that if something isn’t fun for survivors then it obviously needs to be nerfed, but if something is unfun for killers then it should stay in the game.
Basically, it’s the idea that survivors have “real problems” that should be fixed, but killers have “not as bad” problems that they should suffer through.0 -
that's bhvr's philosophy
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Except that's not the case with many people. I mean sure there will always be biased survivor mains that only care about the survivor side, just like there will always be biased killer mains that only care about the killers side.
But the thing is, currently, tunneling and camping are the biggest issues of DBD. Practically no one enjoys going against these strategies, and sadly they are wide spread because of how little skill they need. Killers of course also still have frustrations to deal with, and nobody is excluding the idea that those will be addressed in the future as well. But they aren't as pressing issues as tunneling and camping are.
Also, as said by BHVR themselves, if kill rates go down too much, killers can be buffed in other ways as well. Only in this case they would be buffed in more healthy ways. Even though I personally think 60% kill rate is a bit high of a target.
Also, killers have been getting their frustrations addressed many times already. So it's not like BHVR is neglecting the killer side in any way. Killers in general are in a decent spot now even without tunneling and camping.
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Them not being able to camp and tunnel as effectively wouldn't hurt the new players that play Springtrap as much as tunneling and camping will hurt the experience of the new survivor players.
Also, survivors aren't busted, definitely not. They need these anti-camp and anti-tunneling changes badly.
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How does one still believe that? Killers have received so many good changes over the last years.
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But it’s exactly what people are saying….
When slugging is frustrating for survivors, it’s a big huge deal and should be fixed. But when slugging is frustrating for killers (I.e. survivors are forcing the killer to slug), it’s “not as bad” and doesn’t need to be fixed.
If generator speeds are frustrating for survivors, it’s a big huge deal and should be fixed. But when generator speeds are frustrating for killers, they are told “it’s not even real gen rushing”, that it’s a fake problem, and doesn’t need to be fixed.
If tunneling is frustrating for survivors, it’s a big huge problem that needs to be fixed, but if killers are frustrated that survivors are weaponizing anti-tunnel stuff, then it’s “not as bad” and doesn’t need to be fixed.
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I think you're conflating a few things here that aren't really directly comparable.
For your first example, I question who actually says that most of all. I feel like if you ask about like, unhookable builds, most people will probably agree those are annoying and should be fixed, right? Killers excessively slugging would obviously be the higher priority, but both would be problems.
I guess maybe if "killers are forced to slug" is meant to mean like, someone went for a sabo play so you drop the survivor, sure, that's obviously not a problem, but I don't want to assume that is what you meant.
For your second example, you're definitely conflating things. The distinction for "real genrushing" comes from people who disagree that the term should just refer to survivors who do generators normally, not from people who are complaining about gen speeds on the survivor side. Those are two wholly different conversations happening at wholly different times.
I do also want to point out, killer gen speed complaints are actually also getting fixes in this roadmap. That's what survivors spawning together every time is. What a lot of killer players need to hear, though, is that slowing down generators is their job and the game gives them plenty of chance to do that right now.
For the last example… I feel like this one is also just a thing most people aren't saying, right? I think most people are broadly on board with the idea that anti-tunnel needs to be better but less weaponisable?
You'll see people pointing out only Endurance can be weaponised, but that's not the same thing.
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alright i will break this in quite some arguments.
However, tunneling and camping are almost as strong as ever, with little effort required on the killers side. These strategies are very easy to pull off, and strong, which is why quite a few killer players resort to these strategies.
okay how, just how can tunneling and camping be stronger than ever when anti-tunneling and anti-camping tools are also stronger than ever? I just need to understand this logic.
I think this will cause problems in two ways. For one, the potential gain of new, long term players will be less because of these strategies. New survivor players will play some matches, go against a tunneling and camping killer one too many times, and be done with DBD.
there is something called learning curve in games. For example, CS2 has a very steep learning curve, did it lose many players because of that? No, because people who decided to play it clearly understood game has a steep learning curve. Now what about dbd. Dbd is very known by killer role being easier to play at low skill levels and getting more difficult the more you play with current matchmaking until you are stuck at specific level or you decide to improve. Survivor role is kinda difficult at the beginning, but gets easier and easier the more you learn because of understanding how to use beneficial aspects of your role to get advantage. If you leave the game prematurely, you are simply not ready to improve nor you want to.
And this will also lead to the problem of longer killer queue times, possibly for more than just the first 1 or 2 weeks after Springtraps release. Because many of the new killer players will have less reason to not be interested in DBD after they play some matches. Of course, killers also have to deal with certain frustrations every now and then, but none of them are nearly as prevelant as tunneling and camping are at the moment.
this is such an one-sided argument and kind of fearmongering community with a good ol' "if you don't hold my hand i will leave".
I just think it's a shame BHVR wasn't able to address these issues before the FNAF chapter. I do think that once these changes do happen in the second half of the year, it will bring back quite a few survivor players, which is of course a good thing. But it would have been nice if tunneling and camping was already much less of an issue for the new players that are going to come with the FNAF chapter.
if matchmaking existed in this game and tunneling/camping were properly punished by players, those strats wouldn't be nearly as much present at "soft MMR cap" nor would content creators push tunneling and camping as "only" ways to win.
Veteran players can build a better game for newer players, yet they chose what they want to do.
Also, two side notes: I personally think the go next prevention shouldn't happen until these anti-camp and anti-tunnel changes happen as well. Unless the go next prevention can somehow account for not wanting to go against such strategies.
so your suggestion is that giving up shouldn't be punished more until tunneling and camping (which are already punished hard at actually high skill levels) are addressed (they already are, but you are blatantly ignoring it).
The main way to make specific strategy appear less in your matches is to counter it so hard that people understand they can't win by spamming those strats every match.
And second, I can only pray that Springtrap is very fun to go against on the survivor side. If we get another Kaneki situation, good luck even finding killer matches.
honestly, average survivor nowadays finds majority of killer roster unfun to face nowadays simply because "omg, my opponent doesn't have personality (doesn't let me win)" mindset.
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Who exactly are you quoting here? There are many people part of this community with different opinions.
There are definitely frustrations killers have that should be looked into as well, but right now the most pressing issues are tunneling and camping.
Also are we still acting like killers never get their frustrations addressed? That seems quite disingenuous to me.
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I think behavior doesn’t have a fix yet and is a bit scarred to do these changes, which are potentially controversial. Hopefully these changes come before December. I hate it when updates get pushed back until the last date.
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I really hope they happen before december as well. And BHVR should not be scared of these changes. Survivor experience definitely needs to be improved now. They said it themselves, they can buff killers if these changes impact kill rates too much.
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it actually would hurt them because bhvr's anti tunnel and anti camp stuff is really generous towards survivors and actually hurt killers from being efficient
also >survivors aren't busted, definitely not.
i can tell you're either a survivor main or you haven't ran into a good survivor team where they abuse the anti tunnel/anti camp mechanics
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can you give some examples please?
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are you serious? where did you get the idea that tunneling and camping require no effort on the killer side? unless you are playing an a+ tier killer or the survivor youre tunneling is trash, tunneling actually takes skill nowadays because of the amount of anti-tunnel perks that reset chases and hinder you. try tunneling a survivor who's good in chase with OTR + DS as a m1 killer with no chase power. people need to move on from the mentality that tunneling is a free easy OP win strategy lol
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I personally hope they impact kill rates, so they finally buff some of my beloved characters like Sadako.
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"okay how, just how can tunneling and camping be stronger than ever when anti-tunneling and anti-camping tools are also stronger than ever? I just need to understand this logic."
something something "those tools aren't good enough" something something "any good killer can work past them" something something "if a killer really wants to push past them they can" something something "me and my bad solo q teammates cant use the 70 meta anti tunnel perks at my disposal well so I complain about tunneling because I know people like me will agree"-3 -
Not tunneling requires way more skill. Tunneling makes the game a lot easier for yourself and miserable for survivors.
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so what it requires way more skill? am I gonna sit there with my 9 hooks and 1 kill while the survivors are tea bagging me at the gate and be like "well at least I did the skillfull strategy instead of tunneling which would have got me the win!"
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yes survivors want you on the L train and make survivors feel good while they t bag you
they essentially want you to be a killer bot
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okay how, just how can tunneling and camping be stronger than ever when anti-tunneling and anti-camping tools are also stronger than ever? I just need to understand this logic.
I said almost as strong as ever. I realise that there have been improvements made against tunneling. But that doesn't change the fact that tunneling and camping are still way too strong for how easy these strategies are.
there is something called learning curve in games. For example, CS2 has a very steep learning curve, did it lose many players because of that? No, because people who decided to play it clearly understood game has a steep learning curve. Now what about dbd. Dbd is very known by killer role being easier to play at low skill levels and getting more difficult the more you play with current matchmaking until you are stuck at specific level or you decide to improve. Survivor role is kinda difficult at the beginning, but gets easier and easier the more you learn because of understanding how to use beneficial aspects of your role to get advantage. If you leave the game prematurely, you are simply not ready to improve nor you want to.
Ok, this part here made me a little speechless. I don't know about you, but most people play video games to have fun. And going against tunneling and camping is not fun whatsoever, for pretty much anyone. Are you unironically going to blame newer players for not sticking around and wanting to learn how to counterplay tunneling and camping? You can't be serious right? This is not about the learning curve of DBD, but about having to play against something as unfun as tunneling and camping. Why bother learning to go against camping and tunneling killers if people can just do something actually fun?
this is such an one-sided argument and kind of fearmongering community with a good ol' "if you don't hold my hand i will leave".
I am not even sure what you are talking about here. All I pointed out is that killer queue times might suffer in the future, because there will be a much greater gain of killer players than survivor players. This is no threat whatsoever, people are allowed to choose what they want to play and what they don't want to play. And as a killer main myself, I don't want to have to suffer through long queue times for that long.
so your suggestion is that giving up shouldn't be punished more until tunneling and camping (which are already punished hard at actually high skill levels) are addressed (they already are, but you are blatantly ignoring it).
The main way to make specific strategy appear less in your matches is to counter it so hard that people understand they can't win by spamming those strats every match.
You seem to be trying to blame the players for tunneling being so strong, but that's simply not true. Tunneling and camping are strong strategies even against good survivors. Tunneling and camping will be going nowhere until the devs, as they plan, do something about it. And no, I am not ignoring that tunneling and camping are punished hard, because they aren't. Yes, there are perks that help against tunneling, and can punish it, but as it stands, right now tunneling and camping are still way too good in too many situations.
honestly, average survivor nowadays finds majority of killer roster unfun to face nowadays simply because "omg, my opponent doesn't have personality (doesn't let me win)" mindset.
Also not true. Of course different people find different killers fun and unfun, but there is much more to that than finding the killers unfun just because the survivor players can't win against them. You are just generalising the entire survivor community based on it's worst members.
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They said they buff killers when it impacts kill rates and I‘d rather play skillful and in fun ways and get buffs for that than what we have right now.
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my bad for not having hope in that very open statement where they said they'd "buff killers" … even when the devs buff killers they do nothing. for example look when they buff a trash m1 killer they just give them some useless 2 second cooldown reduction or something look at ghostface or legion or trapper or trickster still in the pits of hell after their "buffs" because the devs are very open to give survivors anything and everything to counter tunneling but are very stingy to give killers, even the worst ones, anything meaningful
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I don‘t expect it to be a tunneling hard counter to be honest. It will probably just be a half baked thing like the anti camp. It will be slightly annoying but easy to bypass.
Sadly it’s true that the devs often take too long to do meaningful buffs.
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what's probably going to happen is basekit ds which is disgusting
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The devs wouldn‘t dare doing that.
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I said almost as strong as ever. I realise that there have been improvements made against tunneling. But that doesn't change the fact that tunneling and camping are still way too strong for how easy these strategies are.
way too strong? These strategies are dead at high skill levels unless survivors make chains of critical mistakes. If you want to actually have a successful tunneling session you need to have very short first chase and first down + to actually catch unhooked survivor off guard in order to be able to tunnel them (or just have survivors not touch any gens during and after first chase).
Ok, this part here made me a little speechless. I don't know about you, but most people play video games to have fun. And going against tunneling and camping is not fun whatsoever, for pretty much anyone. Are you unironically going to blame newer players for not sticking around and wanting to learn how to counterplay tunneling and camping? You can't be serious right? This is not about the learning curve of DBD, but about having to play against something as unfun as tunneling and camping. Why bother learning to go against camping and tunneling killers if people can just do something actually fun?
"most people play video games to have fun" is a sentence i always hear when it's about "me win=fun; me lose=no fun"
And again, i'll take cs2 as an example, people who just start playing comp and premier are literally greeted by dying constantly, people yelling at them, them being votekicked and...they still decide to play and after couple of hundred, and then thousand hours, results truly show.
If you are willing to just run around the map and play sandbox, goof around with friends in customs.
And keeping accent on "camping/tunneling" unfun is really tiresome, what about newer killers being greeted by people popping 3 gens in the matter of first chase? Why is killer struggling always treated as skill issue, while survivor struggling is treated as game imbalance and suddenly...caring about newer players?
I don't think yall actually care about new players at all, yall care about tools new players would get to counter those strats becoming available to you because you aware you could abuse them much better.
I am not even sure what you are talking about here. All I pointed out is that killer queue times might suffer in the future, because there will be a much greater gain of killer players than survivor players. This is no threat whatsoever, people are allowed to choose what they want to play and what they don't want to play. And as a killer main myself, I don't want to have to suffer through long queue times for that long.
so you think gain of killer players because of one popular licence character necessarily means queues will struggle?
You seem to be trying to blame the players for tunneling being so strong, but that's simply not true. Tunneling and camping are strong strategies even against good survivors. Tunneling and camping will be going nowhere until the devs, as they plan, do something about it. And no, I am not ignoring that tunneling and camping are punished hard, because they aren't. Yes, there are perks that help against tunneling, and can punish it, but as it stands, right now tunneling and camping are still way too good in too many situations.
have you ever watched an actual match against high level teams? I have so many good survivor friends and we would all love to test your "tunneling and camping are strong strategies statement" by playing a no restrictions custom match to simulate pubs and show you how "strong" those strats are.
Next, let's analyze your "good in too many situations" statement:
Tunneling: good only if you manage to get a very quick first down and team goes for a fast unhook OR if whole team doesn't touch any gens during first chase (very rare occasion against good survivors). Too many situations? Where?
Camping: good only if you manage to get a down close to a 3-gen hook with a killer that actually has strong camping potential (Billy, Huntress, Trickster for example). In modern world where good survivors literally know to actually force a down away from 3-gen hook, good luck trying to camp because you are going to end up with 1K at MAX. Too many situations where it is strong? Lol
Also not true. Of course different people find different killers fun and unfun, but there is much more to that than finding the killers unfun just because the survivor players can't win against them. You are just generalising the entire survivor community based on it's worst members.
i mean, the same part of community that regularly complains about these 3 strats hates way too many killers in roster lol.
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i mean borrowed time was meta and it was made base and the devs are going to put in "anti tunnel" mechanics i wouldn't be surprised if they do it
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they are right on behalf of pub games, they require no effort because average survivor player simply gives up as soon as they realize killer is playing any of these strategies instead of actually giving an input to countering them. If you refuse to play against strategy, devs will hold your hands further, actually a great strategy to dumb the game down even more.
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But… of course they will impact kill rates. Because killers use these tactics as an easy way to apply extra pressure, get free downs, free hooks, and by extension, more kills.
Tunneling and camping have still always been huge problems that need to be addressed. But I've also always said that gen rushing also needs to be curbed, so that killers do not feel they need to resort to these tactics to win in the first place.
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…..right. And how do you play against those strategies? Just don't unhook your teammate and gen rush? All other team members jump off gens and come at the hook in a coordinated effort, which gives the killer a free hit on everyone, and eventually another inevitable down? Everybody runs shoulder the burden, decisive strike, off the record? Oh, but then there's still slugging to deal with. Four perk slots can only band-aid fix so many flaws with the game.
Maybe the fact is, there isn't REALLY a viable counter to these killer strategies… which is why they are so effective, and why most killer players utilize them to begin with.
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But… of course they will impact kill rates.
This depends entirely on what they implement. After all, AFC didn't substantially affect camping, it only affects FACE camping.
If they make "anti tunneling" a pop up in the corner that just says "it looks like your tunneling" and then give killers an option to turn off that notification in the settings, it really isn't going to have an impact.
But I've also always said that gen rushing also needs to be curbed
Anti gen rush had been a core mechanic for years now. Prove and BNP were deleted from the game. They're also changing it so that survivors spawn together, making early game spread gens harder and early game like pressure easier at the same time. That's in phase 1 this year.
so that killers do not feel they need to resort to these tactics to win in the first place.
They always will. Tunneling and camping are not a response to "gen rushing", it's the other way around. If you tunnel and camp from the start of the game (at 5 gens) you will annihilate teams at your skill level. It stops working as well when you get teams that push gens early.
There's no comeback mechanic for survivors. If they didn't get 3-4 gens done before one person gets tunneled out, the match is over and they lose.
On the other hand, tunneling is one of many comeback mechanics for killer (map patrol area getting smaller, survivor pallets and items being used up, hook stages and bleed out cannot be reset, deleted, or regressed - not to mention that camping and slugging are also tools to pressure one survivor at the expense of less pressure on the rest of the team).
The only way survivors can even have a chance against hard tunneling at 5 gens is to push gens early. There are entire killer builds ("end game builds") that rely on all the gens being done.
Killers will tunnel, because it's easy to do and hard to counter, then complain about gen speeds when they've used that tactic excessively to boost their MMR higher than their actual skill level. When the devs have made nerfs to Gen speeds, killers use tunneling to get easy wins for a while, then go immediately back to complaining about it again once they hit their new boosted MMR that they can't handle. And the cycle repeats.
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Basekit ds would be the most annoying and abusable thing ever. I really hope you are wrong.
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against tunneling literally:
1. decent first chase (you literally have so many available resources to help your teammates manage to pop 2-3 gens by the time you get downed), somehow people fail in this aspect even against M1 killers. If you just manage to get the first chase part well and your teammates stick to gens during it, you already did more than 70% of the job against a potential tunneler.
2. Anti-tunneling perks, learn how and when to use them, they can even help you in other aspects.
3. If the potentially tunneled teammate had bad first chase, greed them on hook a bit to buy yourself some time. Hooked survivor is basically frozen and can't be tunneled while on hook.
against camping:
- know where to force downs. If you notice you are about to get downed soon, run to a zone away from 3-gen in order to force killer to hook you on a hook that is NOT beneficial for them to camp. This is the most logical and easy counter to camping that renders camping as a strategy useless.
- since many killers are deciding to randomly camp whatever hook they get, very important for your teammates is NOT TO swarm the hook as soon as camping takes place. This is literally the worst thing to do when killer camps.
- Learn to trade hooks to buy even more time
- Anti-camping perks
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way too strong? These strategies are dead at high skill levels unless survivors make chains of critical mistakes. If you want to actually have a successful tunneling session you need to have very short first chase and first down + to actually catch unhooked survivor off guard in order to be able to tunnel them (or just have survivors not touch any gens during and after first chase).
I have high doubts that's the case. It only makes sense that eliminating a survivor as fast as possible is pretty strong. Sure, if the killer has a long first chase and the survivor being tunneled continues to stay alive long against the killer, the survivors will win. But that's the case if the killer doesn't tunnel as well. This game isn't in a state anymore though where survivors have to make many mistakes to go down quickly. The killer just has to outplay or outmindgame the survivor a few times and they go down.
"most people play video games to have fun" is a sentence i always hear when it's about "me win=fun; me lose=no fun"
And again, i'll take cs2 as an example, people who just start playing comp and premier are literally greeted by dying constantly, people yelling at them, them being votekicked and...they still decide to play and after couple of hundred, and then thousand hours, results truly show.
If you are willing to just run around the map and play sandbox, goof around with friends in customs.
And keeping accent on "camping/tunneling" unfun is really tiresome, what about newer killers being greeted by people popping 3 gens in the matter of first chase? Why is killer struggling always treated as skill issue, while survivor struggling is treated as game imbalance and suddenly...caring about newer players?
I don't think yall actually care about new players at all, yall care about tools new players would get to counter those strats becoming available to you because you aware you could abuse them much better.
That's simply bullocks. There are enough people that don't have the mindset of win=fun and lose=unfun. Sure, there are some people like that, for both sides, but they aren't the norm. It's clear as day that many people find tunneling and camping unfun not just because they led to lost games. I don't know what to say if you actually believe that.
Tunneling and camping are also definitely less of a skill issue on the survivors side than losing 3 gens after the first chase is a skill issue on the killers side. With that said, gen rush can still be a slight problem and it would be nice if BHVR found some way to alleviate the frustrations that come from it as well. The issue of gen rush just isn't as pressing as the issues of tunneling and camping are.
so you think gain of killer players because of one popular licence character necessarily means queues will struggle?
I think with this chapter being particularly big, and gaining a particular amount of new players, that the queue times for killers could definitely become worse if more killer players than survivor players end up staying with DBD.
have you ever watched an actual match against high level teams? I have so many good survivor friends and we would all love to test your "tunneling and camping are strong strategies statement" by playing a no restrictions custom match to simulate pubs and show you how "strong" those strats are.
Next, let's analyze your "good in too many situations" statement:
Tunneling: good only if you manage to get a very quick first down and team goes for a fast unhook OR if whole team doesn't touch any gens during first chase (very rare occasion against good survivors). Too many situations? Where?
Camping: good only if you manage to get a down close to a 3-gen hook with a killer that actually has strong camping potential (Billy, Huntress, Trickster for example). In modern world where good survivors literally know to actually force a down away from 3-gen hook, good luck trying to camp because you are going to end up with 1K at MAX. Too many situations where it is strong? Lol
Yes I have. I have seen comp games where tunneling, and to an extent also camping, were prevelant. The more important aspect though is that solo queue simply doesn't have the coordination needed most of the time to counter tunneling effectively. What we've got here is a strategy that is far easier to pull off than to counterplay. Which is just bad design.
You also don't need that short of a first chase to get good use out of tunneling. A normal chase can be enough in many cases.
Camping is the same thing. It hurts solo queue more than swf anyways, especially with the anti-camp meter still not shown on the hud.
i mean, the same part of community that regularly complains about these 3 strats hates way too many killers in roster lol.
Dude where do you get those stats from? Lmao. I have serious doubts that's the case.
I am also curious. If camping and tunneling are bad strategies at high mmr anyways, why would you be against nerfing them if it simply helps all solo queue players and lower mmr players have much more fun with the game?
-1 -
I have high doubts that's the case. It only makes sense that eliminating a survivor as fast as possible is pretty strong. Sure, if the killer has a long first chase and the survivor being tunneled continues to stay alive long against the killer, the survivors will win.
early 3v1 is the best game phase killer could have, but managing to establish an early 3v1 relies so much on trying to force survivors to make mistakes, which is very, very difficult on high skill levels.
On the other hand, the main goal of survivors is to waste as much of killer's time as possible in order to make it possible for at least one teammate to be able to consistently be on gens. Which leads to the next point.
But that's the case if the killer doesn't tunnel as well. This game isn't in a state anymore though where survivors have to make many mistakes to go down quickly. The killer just has to outplay or outmindgame the survivor a few times and they go down.
you make it sound like outplayong/outmindgaming survivors is something such simple.
First there are mindgameable and unmindgameable tiles.
Unmindgameable tiles are the ones where killer simply can't mindgame an actually good survivor in any way, no matter how high skill of that killer is. Those tiles are most often shack and some MacMillan fillers for example.
Mindgameable tiles are the ones where killer can mindgame a survivor, but suvivor can also counter any mindgame attempt through something called checkspots.
So as you can see, this is something not nearly as simple as you think, not to mention that any mistake made by survivor in first chase leading to earlier down can be mitigated by letting that surv stay on a hook longer.
That's simply bullocks. There are enough people that don't have the mindset of win=fun and lose=unfun. Sure, there are some people like that, for both sides, but they aren't the norm. It's clear as day that many people find tunneling and camping unfun not just because they led to lost games. I don't know what to say if you actually believe that.
"omg this killer tunnels/camps/slugs/uses gen perks, they are not playing for fun at all"
:bringing meta perks every match:
:egoing over killer when you beat them:
yes, many people have the winning=fun mentality inside this community and many are trying to cover it up.
Nobody asked any killer if they have fun playing against sabo squads, bully squads and early gen splitting in conbo with meta oerks, bodyblocking etc. It's always "who cares, we had fun".
Tunneling and camping are also definitely less of a skill issue on the survivors side than losing 3 gens after the first chase is a skill issue on the killers side. With that said, gen rush can still be a slight problem and it would be nice if BHVR found some way to alleviate the frustrations that come from it as well. The issue of gen rush just isn't as pressing as the issues of tunneling and camping are.
LOL, if you haven't been informed, even on highest skill levels it's expected to have minimum of 2 gens pop by the moment first chase ends and survivor gets hooked.
Early gen splitting is still extremely powerful, not to mention you are forced to run Corrupt Intervention every match in order to somehow mitigate loses made after first chase and actually try to establish a 3-gen later.
The term "genrushing" is completely wrong to use because it technically isn't genrushing, it's basic strategy used by survivors where one is chased and three are on gens. Genrushing is when people actually bring fullon loadouts that helps finish gens faster.
Tunneling and camping on the other hand are easier to counter than ever and you actually need a very specific situation in the match for those strategies to be worth it.
I think with this chapter being particularly big, and gaining a particular amount of new players, that the queue times for killers could definitely become worse if more killer players than survivor players end up staying with DBD.
no matter which chapter, queues on my server (EU) were always pretty fine as both killer and survivor.
Yes I have. I have seen comp games where tunneling, and to an extent also camping, were prevelant. The more important aspect though is that solo queue simply doesn't have the coordination needed most of the time to counter tunneling effectively. What we've got here is a strategy that is far easier to pull off than to counterplay. Which is just bad design.
have you ever tried to notice what led to a successful tunneling in those matches or you straight went to a conclusion that those strats are powerful without some deeper thought?
In terms of coordination, against huge majority of killers in pubs, you can make magnificient results against tunneling/camping killers even in soloQ.
The only thing we needed for soloQ to fight camping was basekit Kindred.
You also don't need that short of a first chase to get good use out of tunneling. A normal chase can be enough in many cases.
normal chase + greeding first surv on hook for a bit or just straight up unhooking for them to get anti-tunneling perks value is more than enough to counter tunneling.
Camping is the same thing. It hurts solo queue more than swf anyways, especially with the anti-camp meter still not shown on the hud.
anti-facecamp meter shouldn't be buffed at all, it does it's job of countering toxic killers well. The biggest thing about camping that hurts soloQ is people rushing for unhooks. As i said, basekit Kindred was the only thing ever needed to fight camping as soloQ on top level.
Dude where do you get those stats from? Lmao. I have serious doubts that's the case.
i'm not getting stats, i'm just watching socials and streams regularly and so many people complain so much about so many killers.
I am also curious. If camping and tunneling are bad strategies at high mmr anyways, why would you be against nerfing them if it simply helps all solo queue players and lower mmr players have much more fun with the game?
- removal of skill aspect of countering killer strats (which is actually legit fun) completely and turning more matches into free wins with 0 skill input aka. drastically lowering skill expression of survivor role;
- tunneling and camping actually require skill to pull offon high skill levels (and i'm not talking about imaginary high MMR in this nonexistent matchmaking) because you have to read how the match goes, understand when sylurvs make a mistake and take advantage of it;
- because spreading hooks is punished harder than ever and this will further lead to a dead game on high skill levels.
3 -
I fully disagree on that. There been done quite some nice things to adress that - basekit borrowed time and speed boost, proxycamp meter allowing self unhook. Killers are thus already limited in that, which gives away the competitive playstyle. Along with limitation to defending part of map due to limited regression to gen. I don't feel like there should be a way to play killer, but few options and players chose which to go.
-2 -
I'll start by saying this. I’m a killer main with over 2k hours. Outside of the last three weeks, I rarely played survivor because, when I did, almost every match was filled with campers and tunnellers. I only ever played survivor with friends. We were never a very skilled SWF and died most matches. Here’s the thing. I never needed to camp or tunnel. Not once. I have strong killer choices that can get everyone to death hook before, or right after, a single gen pops. But recently, I’ve been grinding solo queue survivor to sharpen my skills, and let me tell you, it’s a nightmare. Not just for me, but for everyone else in the match. The amount of tunneling and camping is absurd. Post-game chat, I call these killers out until one responded. And what did I get in response?
"Like what? I'm just playing the game."
That’s when it hit me: This isn’t just a problem of sadistic or pathetic killers. It’s a fundamental misunderstanding of how killer is supposed to be played. New survivors are learning that this is the correct way to play killer, so they don’t chase, don’t pressure gens, just face-camp at hook while the match kicks their butts around them.
They throw away a potential 4k for a miserable 1k/2k, thinking they’re "winning" by means of one or two deaths. It’s not just frustrating, it’s actively ruining the game for both sides. Nobody wants to be that tunneled or camped person. Not all solo queue mates even understand do not save the camped survivor and do gens instead is the best strat against it. These killers don’t realize they’re training themselves into bad habits. They’re not learning map pressure, mind-games, or how to actually snowball a match. They’re just conditioning themselves to rely on the cheapest, most miserable tactics, and when those get nerfed (as they should), they’ll have no fundamentals to fall back on. Worse yet, survivors are learning to accept it as normal. New players think this is just how DbD is. That getting tunneled out at 5 gens is an unavoidable part of the experience. So they either quit, or they start doing toxic sh*t in retaliation, which just makes the whole cycle worse. Bully Squads are probably born from this.
The saddest part is, nobody's having fun. You can tell when someone’s just going through the motions, staring at a hook while gens fly. They’re not outplaying anyone. They’re not improving. They’re just turning the game into a boring, toxic slog for everyone, including themselves. Why fear changes to this absolute dumpster fire?
Don't care how long they take, as long as BVHR finally realizes this is some bullS.
Edit: Oh of course, the tunneller/camper drops by to vote me down. What do you think this is? Reddit? Man up, bad player. Debate me.Post edited by Culuf on0
