http://dbd.game/killswitch
tentative ghoul update from a ghoul main
hello! I'm bnork! and id like to present a comprehensive update for the ghoul, addressing his pain points and highlighting his best features from someone who's put a lot of time pushing the characters skill ceiling, and also invested alot of time versing the killer as well! since the PTB ive experimented with using the speed and momentum of the leaps to cut-off survivors from resources, and using the non-lethal grapple to interrupt survivors prompts. Ive made a small name for myself on twitter and twitch, posting very flashy clips playing kaneki around tiles and after reviewing these changes with several ghoul players, and survivor players, i believe ive hit the nail on the head with exactly what survivor players dislike, and what killer players would like alot more. with these few changes i strongly believe we could make the best version of kaneki we've yet to see!
lets start with addressing the frustrations from the survivor perspective, beginning with the Enraged vault. the speed of the vault itself, combined with the hindered from the grapple, turns the action into what can be compared too "scampering" from Chucky, it can often feel like a lose-lose, and while there are advanced tips to avoid it, it can be a bit unintuitive. next is the ease and inevitability of the grab attack, feeling as though there is very little counter-play given the nature of the hit-scan attack, that can also be triggered at far ranges. next up is add-ons, namely Yamori's mask and Centipede feeling rather oppressive and uninteractive. and finally the inconsistent nature of the pallet break power drain, leading to the killer breaking the pallet, and quickly regaining all lost distance.
and as for the ghoul himself, the power can feel very finicky, and often times unresponsive, needing to back up far distances to grapple onto the environment, grab attacking a survivor you didn't intend to. and being unable to latch onto pieces of the environment that seem like you should be able too. additionally, feeling unrewarded, and therefore encouraged to not interact with the skill-full elements of the power, leading to taking the "path of least resistance" which often times leads to survivors players disliking the interactions, and brewing frustrations on BOTH sides.
all of these changes are intended to limit frustration, from both sides, reward correct plays, and enrich the experience of playing as, and against, the ghoul. lets begin with the survivor frustrations, as i believe they've made it quite clear they aren't having as much fun as they'd like.
- the Ghoul can no longer perform a vault action with the first leap
the reasoning for this change is to completely remove the "scamper" aspect of the Kagune leap, while maintaining its existence and effectiveness in chase, this change allows survivors more freedom to use resources they've made, and enables ghoul players to still utilize the the vault for unique plays around dropped pallets during the second and third leap. this change will hurt his chase lethality, but i feel its necessary to both inject intentional skill expression into the ghoul player, and alleviate the inevitability getting downed when dropping pallets infront of kaneki at all times.
- fixed "kidnap tech"
as simple as it sounds, the kidnap is a technique the ghoul can perform while in chase, in-between dashes, against a non-marked survivor standing a distance away from a pallet, kaneki can prevent a survivor from moving, during which he is completing an entire vault action. offering the survivor very little to no counter play this change feels more akin to a bug fix, as the interaction doesn't seem intentional. but its worth noting nonetheless.
- Completely reworked Yamori's mask
- Completely Reworked Red-headed Centipede
as said above, the current version of these add-ons encourage rather uninteresting play-styles, kaneki is an incredibly mobile killer, and as such, having near unlimited pinpoint accurate information, for every hook, is an absurdly strong add-on that simply cannot exist as it does now, likewise Centipede enables kaneki to completely deny multiple windows at once, leaving survivors with very few options, with very little input from the ghoul player himself, neither add-on has values that can be directly nerfed without making them very weak, so reworks are in order.
- Reduced the range a Grab attack can be triggered by 8 meters(was 14)
the grab attack is a hit scan, long range attack that offers very little in terms of counter play, having the ability to snipe at such a range, leaves survivors with very few options against this attack, and while the attack was designed to not be dodge-able, requiring the ghoul players to position more deliberately to gain the benefits from grab attacking, would be a good way to increase the skill required to use it.
- Reworked the token drain system to be a power disable rather then a forced cool down.
so, to explain in clearer terms, the token drain system in its current form is very well intentioned, but leaves a bit to be desired in implementation, the current version features a unique drain, if not enraged, you lose one power token, and if you are enraged, you lose two power tokens, making the penalty for a breaking a pallet 4 seconds regardless of your current mode, this however does not drain tokens when actively recharging, which solves a previous issue of granting the ghoul a power charge token, causing his recharge to ironically be faster, but has a side effect of bringing back dashing after the survivor as soon as a pallet was broken, giving the survivors very little opportunity to make distance. my proposed change is to re-utilize tricksters power disable feature after using main event, this would allow counter-play timings to be consistent, and simplify the system entirely. this also has a noticeable benefit of decreasing the oppressiveness of chase perks, such as brutal strength on kaneki. and can also be used as a consistent balancing nob in the future!
alright! so with all these changes combined, we'd have alleviated a lot of survivor frustration against the character. we've removed the "scamper" from his kit, made pallet breaks consistently give breathing room for survivors, made grab attacks require more finesse to achieve, and reworked two problematic add-ons! this will however, leave kaneki in a state where he's weaker then he should be, so its time to compensate him, while also enabling the play style ghoul players want to be rewarded for!
- Revert Kagune Leap range to 16 meters(was 14)
early into kaneki's entrance into the fog, his kagune leap range was nerfed, this however, made the killer feel clunky, unresponsive, and coincidentally, did nearly nothing to his map control. this change would both add some much needed smoothness to his kit, while also allowing kaneki to once again have the ability to precisely grapple to ideal locations to outplay survivors in chase!
- Increase the speed of the third Kagune leap by 30%(satchel base-kit)
so, for those that don't know, kaneki's third leap does NOT feature a slide, limiting its mobility, which is honestly quite nice! it puts a reasonable restriction on mobility, and makes it feel very accurate, going exactly where you aimed, but this does however, leave the third leap feeling rather clunky, and having little utility, so increasing the speed of the third leap, allows for very precise placements, enabling cut-offs in chase, and relieving some add-on reliance. current kaneki, relies alot on Fresh coffee against better survivors, so this change allows for more freedom in builds, and gives the third leap some nice utility!
- Reduce the minimum leap range distance by 2 meters(was 5, now 3)
another quality of life change, the minimum leap distance refers to how far you need to be from an obstacle to latch onto it,. 5 meters simply feels rather clunky, making the ghoul player have to walk quite far backwards to begin leaping, this change wouldn't effect counter-play, and would only enable the ghoul player have more expression in chase while feeling smoother to play!
- Reduced Kagune swipe fatigue time to 2 seconds (was 2.5)
okay, so this buff might seem a bit odd, a kagune swipe(in reference to the score event) is in reference to grappling directly onto a marked survivor, dragging yourself towards them, this doesn't harm the survivor in any notable way, but does have one utility in chase, it interrupts a survivor, denying them the ability to vault pallets or windows! this can be used in chase as a "skill-shot" to deny a vault action, granting the ghoul a down for a well placed use of Kagune leaps momentum, it is also worth noting, a Kagune swipe has a noticeably slower movement speed as well as a longer fatigue time, this change could grant some new technique to chases, granting higher depth, whilst maintaining its higher movement speed penalty, giving the survivor enough time to react.
i hope these changes reach the devs, and possibly some consultants, i honestly believe kaneki is one of the best killer designs in recent memory, held back by a few baseline changes that have been addressed above, i deeply appreciate anyone that took time to read! thank you! :D
Comments
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I would 100% be okay with all of these changes, It doesn't hurt the skillful play at all, arguably would make him feel MORE skillful to play as, I love it!
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I know this has nothing to do with the changes suggested in the original post, but I do have a change I'd really like to see made to the Ghoul:
Better Deviousness gains.
Spirit and Legion earn Deviousness for pressing a button that activates their power and then staying in that state. The Ghoul requires aiming, way way too often I see a red icon and then when I tell it to leap the icon changes to white and my tentacles leak impotently, and yet when it does grab I don't get any BP for it. I can use his power constantly to traverse the map and grab survivors and earn damn near nothing for Deviousness. It has absolutely stopped me from playing him.
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Still won't be enough for survivors. They want him turned into a nugget
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Honestly I can't say I have enough experience with the killer to understand every change in depth, but everything seems extremely well written/argued and very well thought out, and I learned several things reading this thread. It all looks very reasonable to me.
Nothing but thumbs up good sir.
Would also be interested in thoughts on the add-on reworks... any ideas?
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A lot of good things, but the addon changes aren‘t needed. They are fine as they are. Vaulting on the second/third leap doesn‘t work like you imagine it to work. Most of the time you will grab onto survivors and mark them, which makes this mechanic useless and very clunky to use. His vault is almost perfect at the moment. At most loops it is a 50/50 and survivors are able to vault the pallet.
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As a ghoul main myself that tries go for bodyblocks
I wouldnt be against any of your changes, i think 2 sec swipe fatigue is not really needed because you can already body block the pallet or window which is harder to do then the swipe. Other then that these are some healthy changes!
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sick clip, personally i think the swipe fatigue should be shorter in general, you could go 2.25, but personally it feels rather unintuitive, and adds another layer to his chases, but i really appreciate the feedback!
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this means alot coming from you! thanks so much for giving it a read! :D
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That clip is REALLY impressive btw
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Another really frustrating thing with the ghoul is you can't really hide from him.
I've been in many situations, hiding behind a rock, pallet, wall, bush, or some place pretty much 90% of killer players will miss as they run off to some other objective they are chasing. Then ghoul uses their power for mobility, and that BIG GLARING MOUTH GRAPHICS lights up and rats out my location like a spotlight.
Just remove that stupid graphic that gives them free intel, and let them figure out for themselves when they have a valid survivor target. Also you know what would also be great? Treat it like a projectile, not a hitscan.
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nah these are both poor ideas, the grab attack wasn't designed to be a dodgeable attack, as explained by the devs, they prioritized the mobility aspect of the kit feeling smooth, rather then the projectile based, changing this would require a rework to the entire system, which largely serves no purpose. as for the info graphic, that takes away information from the ghoul player, does nothing about the strength of the ability, and doesn't really do anything about the problem you mention, if the killer is that close to you, they'd hit you regardless of any change you make to the ability, these issues aren't balance, they are personal grievances.
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This is literally EVERYTHING I've been asking for! Pleaseee BHVR
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No.. they would NOT hit me if they do not know I am there in the first place.
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His current state is the new skull merchant, people sometimes just stop and wait for you to down them even on the first chase, and id really like to see the ghoul become more enjoyable for both sides. None of these changes seem like something that would annoy the survivors more, and they would feel more fair and skillfull on the killers end, instead of feeling like you are getting free "cheap shots" most of the round.
Hopefully this post gets enough activity to draw their eye and give it some thought
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i assure you the small pink line is not the reason you're getting found
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I don't see the point of reworking those add-ons, won't people just use bbq and bamboozle instead? I also don't see how it's uninteresting playstyles. BBQ encourages killers to leave the hook, it always has. If you dont give the killer good information they'll rely on unhook notifications. The mask can interrupt actions which i admit is annoying but all screaming perks and add-ons do this. I dont see the problem with bamboozle either. Especially if you plan to remove scamper, all it will allow the ghoul to do is break pallets earlier.
I think most of the other changes are good but the power disabling and removing scamper means he will be pretty painful to play on indoor maps, game, lerys, rpd. I would rather enrage vault speed just be reduced to where it can counter god pallets but not the average loop. And the vault damage needs to be fixed as well because most people are lead to believe its a bug or exploit when it's intended.1 -
Not OP, but reworking the add-ons that are effectively perks would make him have to take those perks to keep those effects in his kit. It's a fair nerf; as right now, if you run those add-ons, you get the equivalent of 6 perks.
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Still does not address why that's a problem. It's taking away power for the sake of it. They are not the only add-ons that block vaults or aid in detection, that therefore would also count as "perks".
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This would be very nice, also if we could remove his hindered effect for auto-hitting vaulting Survivors that would be great.
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yamori's mask is constant information for no input, imagine if blight had an addon that just showed you everyones aura's at all times. its completely unreasonable to have it exist in its current form, centipede could reasonably exist assuming you were to remove the first leap vaults, but the fact centipede applies to ALL vaults when enraged, and lasts on multiple windows at once, leaves it to being rather unhealthy.
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Both killers have BBQ which is better.
Who is vaulting multiple windows in 10 seconds… and Bamboozle is still better. You don't explain why you think these things are unhealthy or uninteresting.0 -
i did, but ill get specific one more time. firstly, BBQ is not better, at all. BBQ can be countered by hiding behind other auras, or with distortion, mask for whatever reason makes you scream regardless of if you have calm spirit, and even if it didnt, having constant information, in one addon slot, for doing exactly what youd be doing anyway. on a killer who's more then able to capitalize on that much information, is incredibly unhealthy, there is NO debate here.
as for centipede, the vault speed you get from enraged vaulting is insanely quick, its incredibly easy to reasonably get two window vaults, within that time. additionally this is an addon slot, that both makes your powered vaults block, and any vault you preform during enraged also block, its a 5 second difference and blocks multiple windows, its uninteractive, and even more so, uninteresting. you could probably keep centipede if you absolutely had to after the vault nerf i suggest, but its still largely boring design. and on live servers its objectively overtuned. its also worth noting, because you keep mentioning it. using either addon free's up room in your build to use some sort of slowdown, the perk equivalents of these addons are not better, not even close. hope my points have been made as clear as they can be!
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Gens are the only aura. Who uses distortion anymore? BBQ allows you to track and identify survivors and yamori's mask reveals it self. A large scream bubble is also not precise. It not working with calm spirit is definitely unintended. It's not constant information, you have to hit with power and down and hook each time, same as bbq. Again, don't know why BHVR giving a useful add-on that are just replica of 6+ year old perks is unhealthy. It "frees" up slots… so?
Bamboozle blocks on power vaults so it's objectively better than centipede. Once again throwing around "uninteractive" "uninteresting" as justifications for removing something. "Objectively overtuned" requires data to prove that, which we don't have access to.-1 -
i cannot explain in clearer terms, if you disagree thats perfectly fine but you dont have a good grasp on game health, or game design.
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What, and you do? You cannot even explain your own opinions.
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please refer to the paragraph you ignored!
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I haven't ignored anything, you just haven't explained anything, instead just re-iterated what you said in the post.
Why is Yamori's Mask unhealthy? saying there is "no debate" without explaining is ridiculous.
How is Centipede un-interactive?
Why is add-ons freeing up perk slots a problem? As a reminder centipede isn't the only add-on that blocks windows, nor is yamori's mask the only add-on that aids in detection. So the issue would extend beyond ghoul.4 -
You have no idea what you are talking about. This isn't a small pink line. It's a significantly-sized graphic that depicts an open mouth when a survivor can be auto-aimed.
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i know exactly what im talking about, i was trying to politely inform you that the graphic isn't the reason your being found, and hiding in general is often a really poor choice. if hes close enough to you to be currently aimed on you, you were going to be found regardless, and we're really hidden. thanks!
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please refer to the paragraph you ignored!
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It wouldn't be enough for them. Survivors want him gutted.
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these changes are exactly what he needs, yea
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