http://dbd.game/killswitch
About the Botany Knowledge buff…
There was a lot of talk about the Botany Knowledge buff when the PTB came out about how overtuned the buff is. In my opinion, I think the devs should ship it to live as it was in the PTB, CLOSELY monitor it for the first 2 weeks and if it’s too overtuned then address it in the second hotfix. So many perks have gotten purposed buffs in the PTB and were seen as too powerful and either gutted or reverted for live instead of seeing how it would play out in live matches before making the final decision. I know Botany is already a strong perk currently but the downside was redundant since it was added in when Medkits were at their strongest and busted phase but after Medkits got reworked to have a speed and efficiency debuff for self healing, Botany should’ve gotten this buff it’s getting this patch back then. This is my opinion but curious to hear what you all have to say about the Botany buff that’s coming.
Comments
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The problem is medkits are still by far the strongest item in the game, and this purely serves as a buff for them. The idea behind the downside is to incentivize other item use, and with the key and map buffs coming that would be an interesting idea. Having two 12 second self heals for one perk is kinda crazy (and the perk continues to be useful outside of that)
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I didn't mind the Botany downside a lot, tbh.
So, even if it'll get reverted, I won't mind as much.
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Seems like too much to me. It seems to easily outclass other healing perks, why would you use desperate when you need 3+ injured survivors to surpass botany that works at all times? Do No Harm as well, far too conditional to only get 50% more on 2nd hook survivors.
Hit and run definitely seems cooked with all the healing perk buffs. Botany definitely seems too much when it affects medkit self heals, which is where the penalty was balancing it out.
We'll have to see it play out maybe im wrong but this is what i've thought since PTB3 -
I think the buff is fine. Survivors have already lost most of what they had, giving them one good perk back won't be the end of the world for killers.
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- My experience: Users of this perk often use it in combination with "Self-Care" and as item a torch or a toolbox. The healing speed (except when using Self-Care alone) is acceptable in all cases, so I don't think this change will be that drastic. Yes, you will now be faster with the medkit if you have this perk, but will this really change the outcome of a match? I don't think so.
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I'm tentatively inclined to agree. It's a very scary buff on paper, but in practice it doesn't really change that much— practically speaking, there's basically two new options available to survivors with this change: Using medkits you find in chests, and being able to get two heals from a medkit via the actual healing action instead of one healing action and one syringe.
The first doesn't really matter that much, they still spent the time opening the chest so it's not really a net gain, and the second is almost kinda worse in a lot of ways so I don't see that being a problem either.
Really, it does seem like more of a basic consistency buff than a real leap in power, but I could be wrong. It'll need to be monitored for sure.
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It should go live as it is don't touch it… heal builds are fun are you not tired of everyone using the same 3 perks window of opportunity, lithe, resilience, sprint burst
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While I agree it isnt that big a deal ONE good perk can mess up the whole balance of the game, look at MfT, og OoO, eruption,old DS, MoM, current shoulder the burden.
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Sigh, time for another round of downvotes...
Most people seem to agree it becomes the best healing perk in the game with this change, however where I disagree is with the idea this change is fine because healing sucks in the current meta.
Maybe they are right, maybe they're wrong, but I struggle to call We'll Make It and WGLF bad perks... they are quite strong... and to me it felt like there were a lot of meaningful factors to account for and trade offs to consider for each healing perk currently, and that is no longer the case.
Personally I think it boosts the value of medkits substantially, especially with syringes for 2 full solo heals, to the point its the most time efficient perk/item in the game, saving 16s of survivor time on 1 heal and 32s on a syringe heal. More if they take Resurgence.
Even once the medkits are spent, it's still an exceptional perk for recovering from slugging, healing off hook vs. tunneling and resetting against a killer playing hit and run or trying to hold a 3 gen.
To me it is a fundamental betrayal of game design to have 1 perk be head and shoulders above all other perks regardless of your justification for doing so... and I don't understand why everyone is happy to take a subpar bandaid solution on BK instead of demanding a proper one across all healing perks.
If healing really is that bad, it should be buffed across the board, not have Botany made the top on the pack in all scenarios. There is no reason not to run a medkit and BK as the most efficient survivor item now.
However that's just my opinion, my heart deflates seeing the change, cause every single healing build I've ever made now has to ask "why this over BK?", and the answer is "because you're an edge lord who wants to go against the grain... or an idiot... probably both".
However the majority voice has spoken, I have said my piece and made my opinion known. Can drop t and move on now.
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I actually agree with you, but you should never use those perks as an example when talking about a perk that has never been at that level of oppression at launch. Minus STB. Botany is and never will be a cataclysmic problem like any of those were.
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Yes, but I don't think we can generalize here, each of these cases is different from the other. And Botany, even if buffed, isn't close to their level.
That said, I don't think Shoulder the Burden fits the list. Don't even remember the last time I saw it.
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No it wont but another problem for weaker killers kile trapper, ghoustface, pig, etc. they cant keep up with fast heals.
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Building healer and having a medkit only to not be able to use the medkit effectively is just annoying.
If you want to nerf medkits, nerf the item efficiency for self healing like they have already. anything on Botany is just overkill.
Perk downsides are dumb.5 -
Shoulder the burden is legit one of the strongest perks ever concieved, however its counter is people are just not good enough, its like having a flamethrower but you have to be able to assemble it, of course for most people is just a bunch of junk with no use. Watching comp players use it in public lobbies and absolutelly decimate people is amazing. And yes those players do scrub the floor with most pub players, but thats the fun part, they can even scrub the floor against comp killers with it.
Like the power of Shoulder is just so even balanced by the fact the average player will never be able to use it effectively, but again the average player manages to lose to a joke killer like trapper so really its kind of a interest design? Like a very good perk but you have to be good to use it, so it filters most of the users out and you see it a few times.
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Oh no I agree botany is not even close to this, I was just pointing out saying that a single perk cannot impact the game is bogus, because it has happened before multiple times.
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Agree. Besides that botany only got that downside because medkits were strong back then. It should have been removed the moment they changed medkits to what they are now.
The botany buff is the main thing I look forward in this update.
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This hurts low tier killers
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I think the devs go back and forth on healing because there's a large subset of players for whom the game stagnates when they're injured. They simply avoid gens and will float around the map, maybe seek out chests, until they're healed up. This is actually why Empathy is a staple in my builds. I see players doing this and often have to go out of my way to heal them up so they'll actually get back in the game. You even see it when COH is in play, that injured person who just stands in the radius and waits and waits…
We know the devs were aiming to minimise self-healing and make healing more of a teamwork thing, not just with the old BK and COH nerfs, but also subsequent medkit nerfs. Reverting BK now tells me that maybe that hasn't worked out as well as they intended. There are plenty of players who know when you need to prioritise gens over healing but there's just as many players who don't understand (or care about) that. I'd imagine the devs have stats to support this. I say just give those players BK back. WMI and WGLF fall into that teamwork aspect, where again the responsibility falls on your team mates.
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There are other healing perks that they have to pay attention to so they can't have BK go live and expect players to not use it
-1 -
It's very killer dependent on who this effects. Killers that can down quickly/keep injuries constantly won't really see a dent while already weaker killers who suffer on pressure will suffer worse against these builds. I ran Resurgence/Self Care/Botany/Desperate Measures with a medkit stacked with as much charge as I could (possibly could swap self care with streetwise if you want to focus on just healing with a medkit) and without getting hooked, one medkit could self heal twice by itself with a few charges left over. Not enough to use a syringe I hope, but enough with charge addons to make them quick and easy if the killer gives up chase.
Botony was and still is a good healing perk, and as someone else pointed out, is basically the go-to for most healing builds and will be a staple on all meta healing going forward, and I agree other healing perks should have been buffed instead.1 -
It will alllow you to heal once from medkit if you have this perk (it will still have the speed and effeciency penalty from medkit itself)
→ with any healing perk will not result in any difference
What scares me more is the buff to desperate measures, because 80 % faster heal when everyone is injured is kinda cracked. Imagine running botany and desperate measures give you more speed then well make it. Luckily there is 200 % healing speed cap that can't be exceed.
-1 -
That's a fair observation, and thanks for giving a solidly reasoned post with actual food for thought. It's nice to have a response that isn't just "it's not that big a deal, why you mad?" that then doesn't address a single point I make.
Lots of perks made redundant or shadow buffed with thia change though. Babysitter is gonna be a must if you see a medkit lobby, that perk is gonna be goated.
RIP Strength in Shadows. I rather liked that perk with BK as a nice niche self heal option that also works well for team healing.... but with medkits now so much reliably better, the perk slot is just not worth giving up for SiS... and I can't see a reason why you ever would take it.
Self Care even worse than it already was. Suppose at this point these perks should be buffed to 80% and 50% respectively or something to even have a shot at being worth considering.
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If anyone is interested, an exceptionally good build is:
- Botany Knowledge
- Resurgence
- Medkit + Bandages (8 charges) and Self Adherent Wrap (8 charges, 5% healing speed)
- Vigil
- Sprint Burst/Lithe
This build let's you heal a full health state (24 charges) in 15.4s, and 2 times off hook in 4.62s (7.2 charges) each. Best part is, this is really cheap for add-ons.
Vigil helps to remove Haemorrhage and Mangled to hopefully ensure Resurgence works, and even if thats not in play, exhaustion perks are always good.
Have fun!
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I feel the same way. I remember the classic Botany which had the medkit efficiency buff.
Personally I am alright with it. Remember, a survivor self-healing is a survivor not on a gen.
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The issue is how exactly do you create more incentive to use other items when anytime something plans on getting changed to create a more diverse pool of item options people end up complaining.
- Developers wanted to rework Keys and Maps to make them so they have passive Aura Reveals so players are more likely to use them, was also going to actively supplement Windows of Opportunity. People complained about it since "Windows of Opportunity is the most used Survivor perk so therefore it has to be a strong change if the perk is meta".
- Developers wanted to change Toolboxes to make Sabotaging stronger to give more incentive to use Toolboxes and to encourage alternative playstyles. People complained that Sabotaging was too strong now and was basically a free save with no downside whatsoever.
- Developers changed Flashlight timing to not be reliant upon having low latency. People complained that it made Flashlights too strong by making the timing way easier to pull off for a majority of the playerbase. Keep in mind Flashlights are still among the weakest item options available but people STILL complained that the change was overpowered and too strong.
If the developers make other items more appealing, it does not matter, since people would complain that it is buffing Survivors "too much". Funniest part as well, if Medkits got nerfed again after all the healing perk buffs, Survivors will just move back to using Toolboxes again, and people will go back to complaining about Toolboxes being too strong.
Keep in mind none of this is to "Us VS Them", moreso that past a certain point you really cannot win with this community because there will always be somebody complaining about something pointless.
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I mean, they can make things more appealing by not cranking things up to 11. The Sabo changes are by far the most atrocious and unhealthy thing you listed, of which still just has no counterplay other than drop them and don't get a hook.
Besides, this isn't about why medkits are the best item, this is about why buffing them indirectly is a terrible idea via an already very strong perk before.0 -
Not issue - there are hooks all around you.
If you see survivior running with toolbox for example at 12 (north) you can go 3, 6, 9 (south, west, east)
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How would you get two 12 second self heals?
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Why this over Botany Knowledge? Well it depends on your goals for the healing perks you're bringing. If you plan on playing altruistic and getting unhooks We'll Make It is a better pick imo. I could go into more perks and why you might take them over BK but in short some are more beneficial for different situations.
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I think the devs go back and forth on healing because there's a large subset of players for whom the game stagnates when they're injured.
I'll also add here that the games meta varies a lot by region. Every time they post top perks, nightlight ends up being very very wrong about self care. It currently sits at #21 for most used, and usually official stats have it in the top 3.
The Asia region has a very strong healing meta, and (as far as I'm aware) always has, even through SC nerfs, and CoH nerfs.
Complaints on these forums also switch back and forth. If healing is decent, some killers don't like the extra health state, even though healing means survivors aren't on gens. When healing is useless, those same killers complain that survivors aren't spending time healing and are simply "gen rushing while injured". There's no making those people happy, unless survivors start the game downed (which they would then complain about unbreakable).
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One day it's medkits, the next day it's toolboxes, the day after it"s keys… Come on.
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Are we talking about nerfing medkits again?
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