http://dbd.game/killswitch
Why are killers allowed to spawn directly in front of Survivors
This is from a game I just played, you can see it takes roughly 10 seconds for the game to START and the other Sable to be hit/enter chase. Why is this even remotely close to being allowed, there is less than 5% progress on any generator and the killer is literally already on top of us. How is this suppose to be fun in the slightest?
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And since it happened quite literally the match directly after. A less egregious example, but still completely insane that it even exists. Huntress (not even a killer with a movement ability) on top of us at 15 seconds into the match. She got her first down at 30 seconds into the entire game. These spawn changes need to be reverted, they are so awful for the game and are pushing an already dwindling survivor population down more.
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There is a perk that activates on the start to show survivor aura for i think 7s.
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Lethal doesn't change the fact that both these killers spawned close enough to the survivors that they were able to hit before the 30 second mark into the game. What happens if we get unlucky into the exposed effect from the event off spawn? Cause I've gotten it before, that is a free hook less than a minute into the match. That is not even remotely okay.
These were the huntress' perks, no lethal.
And this was the Dracula's; yes he had Lethal, that does not change the fact he spawned within 10 seconds of the survivors. He got his first hook 30 seconds into the game, after I cut the video off he hits the other sable again and hooks her. That is a full hook before it was even remotely possible to finish a generator.
There is no arguing that this is not okay.
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Not saying its okay but spawning is kinda rng unless u use offering plus you played event where people use pies mostly.
So bad rng has affected you + the killer movement speed when he transforms he goes really fast.
If he did use that lethal then i will probably just say maybe there is an issue with the specific killer being spawned close or just how rng decided to place killer near but its also the fact he can transform to bats and go fast straight to you guys
Now about hooking someone fast, was this your friend squad in comms or was it randoms since it would help to know if they did proper juking or not
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How much time should elapse before killers are allowed to chase you?
by the way, the two examples you showed are like the smallest maps in the game, and lethal pursuer exists.3 -
I imagine never.
Isnt Midwich smaller than the other map?
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I'd imagine the Dracula from the first clip used his bat form to teleport. No matter where he spawns on that map, it wouldn't be surprising to reach across fairly quickly.
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Sounds more like an issue that your teammates are lasting as long as a juicy fruit in chase and not the spawn changes
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What am I missing? I don't see the killer in the clip.
Killers did have a chance to spawn right next to a survivor long ago. Examples can be found on youtube.
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There is no arguing that this is not okay.How long of a buffer would you need for it to be ok? Genuinely asking.
Honestly, I came into the topic to talk about some of the wild spawns I had in years past, where I would be inside both TR and LoS of a Bubba and similar wild situations, but this just looks pretty normal?
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I mean hey, at least she had a pallet :D
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30 Seconds. That's how long at the minimum it should be. 9/10 times if a killer is on top of you this fast you are both near nothing, and have 0 knowledge of what is around you because of how early into the game it is. All this does is force more people into using stuff like Windows (which killers are rampantly complaining about right now).
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So for that 30 seconds, are you allowed to work on a gen? Or do you want some kind of window where you get to move 30 seconds before the killer can?
For perspective, the total generator time needed is a minimum of 180-450, excluding all other factors like travel time, perks for either side, etc. In 30 seconds, survivors can accomplish 120 of it. Thats how significant that is, and that's not even getting into killers like hag and trapper that have setup times. They would be impacted disproportionately at a rate dependent on your answer to the second question. Few matches would play out with those numbers, most wouldn't, but some would and could, especially once you start putting in other variables.
If your answer to the first question is no, then the issue would revolve around the amount of time needed to orient oneself, which the game purposely inflicts with how its procedural generation works. Its also something that affects players much less as their time and skill with the game go up. Some crazy players out there can tell a lot about other tiles on the map in the intro camera pan alone. If you have issues with this I can absolutely sympathize with that, but much like how sound is purposely balanced poorly to make tracking more difficult, to BHVR its just another issue that affects some players more than others.
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No, I am strictly saying there should be a 30 second window where the killer is required to at least move to the survivors. No "grace period", maps should be both big enough and survivors should be spawning far enough away that it takes a killer 30 seconds to reach a survivor. Especially with how often Corrupt is used this should not be a problem whatsoever. If it takes killers longer to reach survivors you also have significantly less games where it just ends in 5 minutes because nothing could be done about bad spawns (which this game has a lot of), coupled with Lethal being incredibly popular already giving a large amount of killers instant knowledge that they get an easy down immediately. You don't see other PVP games spawning people directly next to each other ever, and its a direct flaw of DBD that its even possible, especially with the volatility of new killers, Dracula is an awful killer to spawn near (made worse by all survivors spawning together), because of his ability to hit and down multiple people instantly, or insanely snowbally killers that are getting extreme power increases by this. Have a Legion spawn within a certain distance of you and they are guaranteed a down because of how close everyone is together.
I do think an innate basekit corrupt of like 30 seconds would benefit the game. Just not for my example. The survivor gameplay being hindered by something like that because of how 1 dimensional it is would just be a net loss overall, even if changes were made to balance it. But that's an entirely different story.-2 -
Both maps have it feels like 2 cm² for the spawnsystem to work with so they can't really place you very good. So ether you have it random and sometimes those situations happen, or you spawn in the corners exactly across each other and I can guarantee you I know exactly where you spawn and reach you with blight in it feels like 5 seconds - there aren't too much options otherwise to fix those spawns with that amount of space to work with.
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then maps probably shouldn't be the size of a matchbox.
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No, I am strictly saying there should be a 30 second window where the killer is required to at least move to the survivors. No "grace period", maps should be both big enough and survivors should be spawning far enough away that it takes a killer 30 seconds to reach a survivor.Thats exactly what I was talking about, unless you want it to take a minimum of 30 seconds for a survivor to be able to work on a generator and forgot to mention that? Survivors can spawn literally inches from a gen, so if it takes at least 30 seconds before a killer can even reach a survivor, assuming they even know where they are, thats the only possible outcome. That is not an insignificant amount of progress for free.
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Lol. Just say you want the first two gens for free and get it over with.
And, no, maps shouldn't be that big. They made maps smaller for a reason.
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A full hook for free isn't insignificant either, why is this a "its okay for killers but not for survivors"?
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Just an unfortunately small map really OP in both cases.
But then again even big maps, many killers can be in someone's face in that time frame.
Eg: Blight, Kaneki, Billy, Dracula, Lich, Nurse….3 -
No killer can currently hook a survivor before a survivor can progress a gen. There's an argument that it would be extremely uncommon for it to happen before thirty seconds have passed, just with sheer travel time/blade wipe/pickup/walk/hook times alone requiring an extremely fast down which only a few killers can even accomplish. Thats not even close to equivalent.
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I quite literally just played a Legion game where I spawned in the middle of the map on Groaning Storehouse and within 45 seconds of spawning I had a down with someone on hook, and every other survivor in deep wound strictly because of these new spawn changes. Nothing about my skill or planning changed, it was just the spawn changes.
Spawns before this update were completely fine, there was no reason to have everyone spawning together. You say giving that much gen progress to survivors isn't okay, while I agree, that is part of the problem. 3-4 survivors are spawning together every match, normally on top of a gen. That is why gens are popping so fast. Before this you would have gens spread out much more because only one person would be working on them. Giving you time to actually take time in chase. I know personally before it was much more difficult to get for a full gen chase before this update, afterwards it has been much easier, and I am seeing much more often that survivors are doubling up on gens instead of soloing them.1 -
Did the offerings get killswitched or something? They don't need to be used by all 4.
Is how bad they have been in the past. The examples you posted are nowhere near that, as for the Legion example, he is one of the killers who can do it due to exactly how I assume you did, getting all 5 FF hits.
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No one in any lobbies I have been playing has been using any spawn offerings. But from my testing in custom games, they don't work even if you do bring all 4 with them.
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Typically, they don't. I don't think I have ever spawned directly in front of a survivor before.
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Spawning into TR is not alright (and does happen). - For those asking "so how long until a killer is allowed to chase you": look at it this way; for survivor to have any survivability they need to be semi aware of their surroundings; they need to know what kinda tile they are in and if any resource spawned in that tile - and which tiles are adjacent. The minimum time this takes is the time it takes to walk through one tile and into another. Let's say it takes 2 seconds to turn the camera initially to identify which tile you're in on spawn and start moving. While you usually can't run in a straight line except if you're in a dead zone, let's assume you can run through two tiles in a straight line. That's that's 8 seconds if you literally just run straight. Now to make that information usable you'll have to spot at least two vault/droppable items, let's say you're super quick and know where they can even spawn so it takes you a second. So, for a survivor to have any reasonable chance at surviving they need at least 11 seconds. Rather more, because usually you can't run in a straight line / you don't spawn into a tile that's at all usable.
That means any killer should take at least 15 seconds to find their first survivor.
Now, vice versa, survs should spawn neither on top of lit totems nor gens but always in a tile that has neither cause yes, it should also take them at least 10-15 seconds to get on a gen. (edit: though as far as survs are concerned; now that they all spawn together even if they spawn on top of a gen at least 2 of the survs should move several tiles away to start a gen - which takes a lot longer than 15 seconds so I suppose that issue is already essentially taken care of).
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they need to know what kinda tile they are in and if any resource spawned in that tile - and which tiles are adjacent.
You can learn all of this during the camera pan on most maps. If you understand tile logic, you know which tiles can and can't spawn in certain areas, and even which ones can and can't spawn adjacent to them. As mentioned previously, this is a skill that can be improved over time, and is frequently utilized by better players. You can map out more of the trial than you think with deductive reasoning and visuals on a handful of tiles alone, which is a type of growth that perks like WoO prevent players from developing.
Even if they don't develop that skill, afforementioned WoO gives them the info for all of their nearby resources highlighted in bright yellow before they can even more their character. This is an avenue that every single player can improve on to at least a reasonable degree (being able to identify the tile you spawn on, seeing the surrounding tiles during the camera pan, and having a basic foundation on your relative location before gaining control) even if you can't go gigabrain and understand half the map in seconds. Its as basic as tracking requirements for a killer, and ironically something that the killer player is probably mentally going over before gaining control as well (especially if running LP.) If people are alt tabbed out or looking at twitch chat during the camera pan, they wasted an opportunity the game actively gave them for this exact issue.
Similarly, if these considerations of micro time wastes are so important, why do people always dismiss everything from blade wipes to picking up and transporting? Microwastes like that have been part of the game since day 1 for both sides, and the disorientating effect from procedural generation has always been a deliberate design decision, and it affects both sides evenly.
How would you propose for survivor spawn logic to work in a way that could accommodate that? I don't know the actual tile counts for each map, but I can't imagine the spawn logic working well with requiring 4 survivors to spawn near each other, but also 15+ seconds from a gen or totem spawn as well as away from the killer. Especially if the old spawn proximity bug resurfaced. I don't think maps like the game could remotely support that.
Spawning into TR is not alright (and does happen)I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I just want to see some egregiously silly examples like the last time it happened. It was awful but a lot of killers had a good sense of humor/sportsmanship about it and would give them a head start last time, though im sure the rampant tribalism has made that more rare if its happening again.
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and there are people who say that old dbd was better.
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Why are Survivors allowed to spawn directly in front of a generator? Same reason.
The spawn logic is kinda messed up. I feel like something might be a little buggy in the code.0 -
The camera pan can sometimes give you that info. Most often the info you get from the loading in camera is "aight. I'm in a tile that has walls." — anything beyond that we're talking about people who either have this game as a full time job - or pretend they have. My mental cut off point for "can you expect a player to reasonably do this" is if a player plays ~3-6 hours a week can they get a hang of that within a few months? No? Then it's something that might be possible among cracked and professional players but should not at all be the expectation of an average player / what the enjoyability of the game hinges on. (This might be different if the "average" player was actually seperate from the "cracked" player - but we know they are in one matchmaking pool)
If the community could at all make up their mind about WoO (it's kinda Schrödingers perk, isn't it? On the one hand it seems necessary for anyone who hasn't made dbd their life, on the other hand it's also a crutch that ought to be deleted cause it's op and gives unfair advantages) I'd say fair point. Alas. — Plus, didn't the community already arrive at the conclusion that a perk should not essentially be obligatory to make the game work for the average player/a perk is not a suitable fix for inadequate game design?
Apparently I'm not "people always" when it comes to other animations and the time they take - in fact I made no comment about it at all so I don't know why you bring it up as if it's a counter point to what I said. Please don't generalise to counter a point I didn't make.
As for how I propose spawn logic to work: You can have an opinion without having the solution at hand…? — That being said; map reworks aren't exactly uncommon so I don't think map tile limitations are an obstacle dev-side; just change the map if need be. (And yes, I am fully aware that it's not as easy as that; but the principle stands: it's not like the map has to remain exactly as it is). Additionally: I also just said by virtue of all survs spawning together already, the problem might already be taken care of between only one tile having to fulfil those criteria (which I have a feeling would likely be a dead zone edge-map-ish if the killer runs a hex build; otherwise literally any tile that doesn't have it's gen spawn and is two tiles away from the killer would work) two survs being less effective on one gen and the increased travel time for the other two survs to a gen that doesn't lead to a three gen/leads to all gens being halted as soon as chase is in one part of the map; which should happen sooner rather than later anyway - considering your high opinion of killers and their understanding of spawn logic; they shouldn't take long to deduce the collective surv spawn point and should thus be able to interrupt all gens near spawn well in time. And even if it takes them checking the map they should get there well before any gen is even close to getting finished.)
And : man. I wish I ran into killers like that. So far killers who basically spawned in front of me seemed to get off on it; nodding and humping after me essentially being two tap cause ######### just happened (especially Blights).
And one last note: OP originally complained about 10 seconds being way too little and led to way too early hooks. Though, the 15 seconds (which are rounded up because you usually can't run in a straight line/need to turn the camera) aren't all that far away from it. Make of that what you will.0 -
The reason I focused on the camera pan is because the game has not even started yet. There is no agency for either side, other than to take in what you see and use it to get your bearings. This is something that happens for every player every match. Of course not every camera pan is going to revel the exact same amount of information, but it gives you everything you need to have before you gain control. That information is not automatically digestable, and its value will impact people differently based on their ability to orient themselves, their ability to apply deductive reasoning to what they were shown to tell them what they weren't, and their familiarity with the maps and tiles themselves. Value will not always be 100%, but it is something that has core components that can be improved by anyone who wishes to. This is a fairly universal principle in games that dedication is rewarded by improvement, and that there are reasons to want to improve.
What I am saying is that no player who gets 0% from the intro is someone who actively utilizes it. Even someone playing maybe their third time will likely figure out something as simple as "The TR isn't active, so the killer is not right next to me." Whether people plateau, or how each component impacts their ability to digest this information personally, they are provided this equal information, the same as all parties, every game.
As for WoO, I know it's both. I actively run it even though I learned how to play without it. I just find it extremely convenient, like the contact list on my phone. But due to the contact list on my phone, I rarely remember phone numbers mentally, like I used to before it. It's both strong and convenient, but also dependence building due to not requiring that level of premapping tiles while routing.
I didn't say "people always", I said:
If people are alt tabbed out or looking at twitch chat during the camera pan, they wasted an opportunity the game actively gave them for this exact issue.Meaning that the people who specifically choose not to gain any information from what they are provided, they are knowingly starting at a disadvantage to anyone who does, and that they are acknowledging they opted out of their chance to do so. It's just a decision that has a consequence, regardless of how much or how little it ends up being.
I also just said by virtue of all survs spawning together already, the problem might already be taken care of between only one tile having to fulfil those criteria (which I have a feeling would likely be a dead zone edge-map-ish if the killer runs a hex build; otherwise literally any tile that doesn't have it's gen spawn and is two tiles away from the killer would work)Yes, you would have to create a forced dead zone on one area of the map, because that would be the only way to have no objectives spawn within a straight shot distance from one area. It would have to be a deadzone. That basically just makes a place where the survivors have to hold forward facing toward actual tiles that aren't just filler at best. You'd just be forcing a running start.
considering your high opinion of killers and their understanding of spawn logic;Where did I say anything about my opinion of killers on the subject? They vary wildly just as much as survivors do, and similarly many of them also don't even watch the camera pan. I've been saying the entire time it is something that both sides can utilize or not, to an even degree.
they shouldn't take long to deduce the collective surv spawn point and should thus be able to interrupt all gens near spawn well in time. And even if it takes them checking the map they should get there well before any gen is even close to getting finished.)They don't have enough time for multiple gens to get anywhere near finished before they have to have found someone. Because currently when you find 1, the other 3 have had all of that progress potential for free. It could be a little, it could be a lot, but interaction between the two sides had not yet started so it effectively becomes a starting handicap. That kind of thing affects the weight of time. Its why LP is so strong even with its low duration.
And : man. I wish I ran into killers like that. So far killers who basically spawned in front of me seemed to get off on it; nodding and humping after me essentially being two tap cause ######### just happened (especially Blights).Its just the state of the community unfortunately. There are still some good ones out there on both sides, we all know when we're one of em.
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I was speaking about survivability which hinges on resources and knowing where those resources are "not in killer TR" is information - but not the information I was referring to.
As for WoO; I generally I agree with what you say about usefulness - but I also stand by what I said in my previous post; the opinion on WoO aside a perk should not be considered a fix to a game design issue (and it is a game design issue if a player of median skill cannot reasonably be expected to make use of what is, in theory, provided but can, in practise, only be utilised by a fraction of the players that can be in the same match; again, if it was a "high skill" vs "not high skill" thing and only those of "high skill" are matched with each other; fair, that's all a ok. - But that's not how matchmaking in dbd works).
"Similarly, if these considerations of micro time wastes are so important, why do people always dismiss everything from blade wipes to picking up and transporting?"
Is what I have been referring to with "people always".
A dead zone does not have to be forced all the time; the most likely scenario for that to happen is just a killer running a hex build because in addition to the gens the totems also block tiles. As I said; If the killer is not running a hex build plenty non dead zone tiles are also available - e.g. shack if it spawns without a gen. That being said: forcing a running start isn't even a bad thing, imo; it alleviates the killer side frustration of survs spawning on gens and getting right to work and also gives survs an opportunity to identify which part of the map they're in and which tiles are around them and which they traverse (incl. resources).
"Its as basic as tracking requirements for a killer, and ironically something that the killer player is probably mentally going over before gaining control as well (especially if running LP.)"
This, to me, sounded like this is what you consider natural/basic for killer players - which in turn read like having a pretty high opinion of them.
"Because currently when you find 1, the other 3 have had all of that progress potential for free."
See comment on running start. Plus; it does make it sound like the other three survs just … "appear" on gens far enough away to not be disrupted by the chase. If survs are far enough away to not be disrupted by the chase they spent quite a while running there. If survs didn't run far they will very likely get disrupted and looking at popular perks chances are those gens end up at zero sooner rather than later. Granted, if the killer has developed tunnel vision and completely ignores a gen being done right next to chase that might be different - but even then and even if those gens do get finished that killer now has three gen potential for free* cause several gens have been completed right next to each other).
*consider this tongue in cheek - couldn't help it. I find this whole "for free" stuff slightly irritating.
On the state of the community: agreed - though, tbh, I've found I rather just play something else where you don't have to search for decent people and it's like searching for needles in a haystack.
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As for WoO; I generally I agree with what you say about usefulness - but I also stand by what I said in my previous post; the opinion on WoO aside a perk should not be considered a fix to a game design issue (and it is a game design issue if a player of median skill cannot reasonably be expected to make use of what is, in theory, provided but can, in practise, only be utilised by a fraction of the players that can be in the same match; again, if it was a "high skill" vs "not high skill" thing and only those of "high skill" are matched with each other; fair, that's all a ok. - But that's not how matchmaking in dbd works).Unfortunately this is a game where things like audio acuity are purposely obfuscated to purposely affect players' ability to make out important audio cues properly. What is provided allows for any player, regardless of limitations, to be able to achieve the minimum degree of agency the game requires. That said, it can and does have a disproportionate impact to how well people can or cannot digest that information, like I said earlier. As much as I absolutely despise the fact they knowingly and purposely retain the abysmal audio balancing for that specific reason, it is a clear design choice for them to not have changed it despite how much players have told them for years that it affects their ability to have an even playing field with other players who are not hearing impaired. So basically I can absolutely empathize (as I did above) with those who are impacted disproportionately by issues such as spatial awareness processing speed or even simple deductive reasoning, but it is something that every single player can improve to at least some degree if they choose to, so I don't sympathize. Its also one of the most symmetrical aspects to the game, even if the weight of every second is very obviously skewed toward the survivors between the end of the pan and first interaction.
Thats also why I mentioned the "not in TR" observation. That was a very basic example of information that a brand new player would be able to glean after only a handful of matches, that a first time player might not know to even figure out. The more people play, the more info they will subconsciously pick up during that camera pan. They might see a fountain or jigsaw box and recognize it belonged to a specific killer, they might see a gen right in front of them, they might see a lit totem, there is a lot of readily apparent information that can be given for free during that camera pan that we all take for granted because its not an exceptional occurrence: The upper end of this type of deduction can go all the way up to things like "I can see shack from my spawn, which means it needs to have these specific tiles adjacent to it, while it also means that the main building needs to be in X direction on this realm, while A B and C are the most likely locations for nearby gens while Z is the area survivors are most likely to have spawned in" and similar information can be pretty accurately estimated. ALMOST ALL PLAYERS WILL FALL SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE. (As a side note, Pinhead players were exceptionally good at this type of thinking when they would triangulate box spawn locations, even mid match)
The expectation of players by the game is to have at least a pretty low amount of information gathered during this time, while the expectation requirement goes up proportionate to the other players in the match, and how much any individual exceeds or falls short of that adjustment. In other words, due to the fact that this particular situation affects all players exactly evenly in that moment, it is a starting handicap that is built into the game. Any desire to change its current iteration is actively trying to weight the start of the match in the direction of either side, as it is quite possibly the most actually balanced moments of the game.
Is what I have been referring to with "people always".Ah, gotcha, that makes more sense. I very specifically didn't say it was something you said, but brought it up as a relative concept since we were discussing forced timewastes. If your logic is consistent for both sides on that topic, great.
That being said: forcing a running start isn't even a bad thing, imo; it alleviates the killer side frustration of survs spawning on gens and getting right to work and also gives survs an opportunity to identify which part of the map they're in and which tiles are around them and which they traverse (incl. resources).This is not a game designed around a running start. Far from it. Some killers specifically have setup requirements where they need to actively waste time before even attempting to engage interaction with the survivors, which will always represent a disproportional impact by design. Not only that, but different killers have both different mobility options and even just base movement speeds. You would need to be able to account for everything between a hag ignoring survivors to set up a web in one area, vs a blight or billy with LP just beelining to the direction the survivors are spawning from, maybe even going through the location of what they deduce to be the nearest likely gen location. Much like now, but it would, again, introduce an uneven nerf that would disproportionately impact weaker killers while barely even making stronger ones check their watch. We don't need core mechanical changes that hurt trapper but barely bother blight, especially for a reason that is both universally even in terms of value and opportunity, with guaranteed agency growth potential of more than zero. All that aside, again, it is a core component in the game's design, directly related to the procedural generation done within the start of every match. They could alleviate this impact by doing something as simple as making maps static, but they have made this decision very deliberately, for better or worse.
Simply put, if all 5 players started with a running start as they gained control, it would look absolutely stupid in the context of the trials. If they started stationary and still needed to run in a particular direction to the nearest objective (and great players WOULD figure out the spawn locations of gens with this info) it would negatively impact low tier killers more than high tier ones (as their mobility, lethality, or both tend to be why they're high tier in the first place) and worse players wouldn't even know which direction to try to utilize that time unless it was essentially fixed. All you'd be doing is delaying the amount of time either side can interact with their objective, which is excessive after the camera pan.
This, to me, sounded like this is what you consider natural/basic for killer players - which in turn read like having a pretty high opinion of them.I can understand that, but it wasn't my intention. What I mean was more about the individual responsibility requirements and how they differ between the two roles: A bad survivor can get carried by a good survivor, and vice versa. But the killer only has his own ability to depend on in regards to things like game sense and calculating possible outcomes. My frame of reference was mostly in regards to the audio example I gave above: I have hearing issues, and I know many other people who play the game do. The devs purposely hide important audio cues behind other audio, and are even introducing a reusable and rechargeable item that muffles sound on top of how poorly it is already balanced, so they very clearly do not give this same type of consideration to other existing issues in the game, while falling back on core design philosophies being their reasoning. Why would they make changes to accommodate something that is quite literally, and I hate to say it, a "skill issue" when they actively refuse to fix accessibility ones using the same logic? When it comes to conditions like APD, one can't exactly practice to improve their hearing. There is no way to "git gud" regarding the game's audio balancing, but again, even someone booting up their first handful of matches have already started digesting free information from the camera pan alone. They have started, and can continue to grow, in their awareness regardless of any type of limitation outside of purposely refusing to utilize it.
The issue is that people do not put the work in to utilize this tool they are given, but expect to not be at any type of disadvantage vs anyone who does. If they don't want to put the work in, fine, but no matter what their level of aptitude, the benefit of applying the knowledge will always be more than zero. You get what you put in.
If survs are far enough away to not be disrupted by the chase they spent quite a while running there.Do they start in some kind of spawning zone that is independent of the rest of the map? Because otherwise they can (and will) all go in separate directions. If running 5 seconds in one direction means that it will take a killer 3 seconds longer to reach you, you have still created a net time surplus because the killer cannot be in 4 places at once and needs to distribute said time. If anything this could very easily completely offset the entire point of making survivors spawn together in the first place, and would essentially make all of the spawn location offerings pointless.
I appreciate the attempts at trying to make the idea work, but its viability is the entire reason why it needs to be ironed out before it could even be considered. These types of issues and oversights are exactly what continues to cause a lot of extremely obvious mistakes in changes to the core gameplay structure. Old OoO wasn't a problem, until it was. Same with MFT, Overbrine, Starstruck Nurse, original MoM, etc. These types of problems are caused by oversights outside of the expected case usage, introducing things with that much of an impact while not applying concepts like sanity checking and thorough theorycraft testing has brought us some of the worst issues the game has ever seen, and continues to be something they tend to have in common. 20/20 hindsight and whatnot.
*consider this tongue in cheek - couldn't help it. I find this whole "for free" stuffslightlyirritating.I am using it in the very literal application. Currently when a survivor spawns and touches a gen immediately, there is zero agency for the killer to interrupt that, aside from pre-emptive conditionals like bringing Corrupt Intervention. No matter how op anyone considers any of the killers, there are exactly zero that are able to physically interrupt a survivor who has no delay on their ability to interact with their objective. That makes any progress that occurs before first interaction to be literally free. There is no agency to deny it or contest it in any way, it just simply is not physically possible without the survivor not properly utilizing their time. Even when not spawning exactly on top of a gen, survivors will always spawn closer to a gen than they will to the killer by design (which, again, is why I wanted to see some of the absurd times this breaks, because the examples posted were neither optimal usage of time, nor that degree which has actually happened in the game's history.) So any and all time before first interaction will always be free potential specifically for one side. Only one side requires the presence of the other to begin applying agency toward their objective, as finding a survivor only starts the potential for the objective's progress, rather than actually progressing it. You could then spiral into the details of things like gen kicks and flashlight saves affecting the lasting impact of these things, but if you don't lose the forest for the trees, its easy to see the point that the killer cannot achieve progress toward killing the survivors until they can engage with them. Even killers that approach global effects (like Singu) require a minimum amount of time before they can interact with their first survivor, so no matter how little or how much progress is achieved before the killer reaches their first survivor, that progress is incontestable. Free.
Edit: missed the part of about considering WoO compulsory, but was shadowborn not compulsory for people who had FoV issues before the setting was introduced? That said, if Stridor was changed to simply make audio cleaner and more consistent while halving the chase music, I know it wouldn't leave my loadout until BHVR realized that was stupid and just fixed the accessibility issue they purposely created. The thing is, that would never happen, so WoO fills an interesting niche where it helps players whether they actually need it or not, inhibits growth in the process, and is seen as something that shouldn't require a perk to utilize. Oh wait, they added it as a charge usage to maps now so you don't even need the perk. There really is no consistent direction to a lot of these things, and the more people bicker over the pointless stuff the more they distract from things like actual consistency in design.
Post edited by Ryuhi on0
