http://dbd.game/killswitch
I made an automatic hook tracker for killers. Is it allowed under the EULA?
Disclaimer: Posting it here because I'm not sure where to post it otherwise. Let me know if I should change the sub-forum.
Hello! I recently made an app to help DBD killers track the hook stages and possible DS timers. It works by visually monitoring survivors' statuses on the screen and then displaying them as an overlay.
No game files are modified. No memory is read. Doesn’t interact with DBD’s processes. It's just an overlay that analyzes HUD pixels. When it sees that the survivor is hooked, it adds a hook stage on the screen. When it sees that the survivor is unhooked, it adds a DS and off-hook Endurance timer on the screen.
I made it to make it easier:
- To NOT tunnel accidentally (I'm bad at remembering hook stages).
- To tunnel when I need to win the game.
- To counterplay survivors trying to use their off-hook endurance and DS aggressively when they defend other survivors.
I feel like this is something that the community would find useful, but I understand how this app enters this "gray" area of software, ethically speaking. And I don't want to contribute to something that BHVR claims is a cheat program.
For the same reason, I don't publish the link to the program on this forum.
Personally, I don't view it as cheating. Cheating is gaining an unfair advantage. This app provides a fair advantage - you're just organizing the already known information (hook stages, DS timers) on your screen. It doesn't tap into the game's memory or its processes. Strictly client-sided. Like a crosshair or Reshade, which BHVR already approve of.
An alternative to using this program is to make notes on hook stages and use timers manually. You will get the same result.
My question is addressed mainly to BHVR - what do you guys think of this? Does using this program comply with the EULA?
Let me know if you want me to share the GitHub link to the source code if this is what's needed.
Answers
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Share it. The age of organized turbo tunneling is upon us
11 -
As far as I know only whitelisted thirdparty-programms are allowed, so it's probably illegal as long as you don't get them to whitelist it xD
10 -
I don't think it's meant for Killers to see this info, but if Survivors can have trainers for flashlight timings and both sides are allowed to use Reshade, and Killers are allowed to use reticle programs for ranged Killers, I think this as a program should be fine.
Good Killers count hook stages and DS timers through various analog methods, like tallies and flat markers on their desks, all the time anyway. Making it digital doesn't break anything, it just makes Killer less frustrating for some and helps train others who are still learning this skill.
-5 -
I don't see how this is any different to using a reticule overlay for ranged killers like Huntress or Deathslinger, which many streamer including BHVR endorsed "creators" use.
You probably won't get an official yay or nay for this, just the usual use at your own risk (aka. we have no idea if EAC will flag it).
Now that they are introducing some form of basekit anti-tunnel, I hope they add individual hook counters for killers. It feels bad to kill someone early after not realising their dumbass teammates let them go second stage.
1 -
If its not interacting with game files, its not going to be picked up on. Thats like being worried youll get banned because you put a piece of tape on your screen to act as a crosshair.
5 -
How does this interact when ppl are left on hook to hit stage 2 or when shoulder the burden is in play?
0 -
It's EAC-safe as it doesn't interact with the game's code by any means.
-1 -
The app detects and processes the next hook stage correctly.
As for the STB, I decided to skip it for now. It seems that STB is bugged in it's current form. You don't see the yellow marker until you actually hook the survivor. When STB happens, I just press a hotkey to manually update the hook state.
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Theres been so many games during this event where I WANT to 2 hook ppl because they were cool enough to bring cakes... but it gets so hectic because there's 2 Kates or something and I lose count. End up letting 3 ppl live with the 4th wondering what they did to piss me off.
2 -
I'm gonna go against the grain here and say that this should probably not be allowed. It likely won't get you banned, because they don't really have any way of detecting it, but I think it goes against the spirit of the game as it is now. (I also think killers should see hook states by default so this program would become unnecessary anyway, but that's a different matter)
Reticles for ranged killers just overlay an image on the screen, they write to the screen but don't read from it. IMO that's fine - putting a generic overlay to make manually aiming ever so slightly easier can already be accomplished by using a built-in feature on many monitors, or even a piece of tape with a dot painted on it.
By contrast, reading from the screen and using that screen information to automate something that you're supposed to do with your own brain power feels like a fair play violation, as the software is far more involved in the process. If you were to use physical hardware to keep track of hook states, you would need to have a piece of paper to count hook states or a bunch of stopwatches set to 60 seconds to keep track of DS timers, but you would need to manually reach over and tick off a hook state or start a timer in order to use that hardware. This program presses that button for you, and I think that's where the big problem with this is.
How is having the computer keep track of who you hooked to avoid tunneling, or having it count to 10 or to 60 for you to facilitate it, any different from having a program that automatically hits great skill checks for you? Obviously the skill check program shouldn't be allowed, why would the hook counter/timer be different?
Post edited by ratcoffee on-1 -
Just saying most modern monitors such as gigabyte, aorus, msi, asus have OSD settings to make custom crosshair for you.
Its not detectable at all and monitor companies dont care if it promotes unfair advantage.
Same goes for stuff like XIM, cronus zen and such
Also this user probably used a program i forgot the name but its used in apex legends to hotswap your gun based off of recoil patter, color of gun, ammount of bullets, vibration and such
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Oh yeah I was saying I understand & agree with why crosshair apps should be allowed. You can also put some tape on your monitor to simulate a crosshair.
I was meaning to contrast crosshairs with the automated hook timer
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Oh that yeah totally
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Since it doesn't interact with code apparently, there's nothing illegal about it i don't think. Technically a killer could just do this themselves with a post it note if they really wanted so ig its not something enforceable. Itd be the same if I enlisted a friend to memorise the hook states.
My guess is its not something in the game its something watching the game and displaying what it sees on screen over the game, so it can't really be against the rules and bhvr can't really do much about it. BHVR can't control what people have on their monitor as long as it's an overlay and not in the game.
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There's still a difference between if it's detected or allowed. I agree it probably wouldn't matter, but the question op ask was if it's allowed within the EULA - and I'd assume it's not still.
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Yeah, and my point is the killer would still need to reach over and mark the post it note in order to use it to keep track of hooks. It's specifically the fact that the computer automatically does the marking for you, without any additional input, that is a problem. I believe it goes against the spirit of the rules. What you're talking about is more, "the letter of the rules as BHVR can realistically enforce them." I don't disagree that BHVR won't ban for something like that, but I still think it goes against the spirit of the game (as it works rn)
Anyway, if it worked by waiting for a keyboard input, that would be different and IMO acceptable (although I'd prefer if BHVR just gave killers the ability to see hook states by default)
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I'm gonna say a hard no.
Third party software is pretty closely monitored, and needs to be whitelisted. Just because it's hard to detect or police doesn't mean you should try to use it anyway.
I've been opposed to showing the killer hook stages in the past and this goes way beyond that. This is basically a replacement for game sense and game knowledge in general.
I don't honestly think that is that difficult for people to remember hook stages, or who was recently hooked. This isn't that fast paced of a game, and it's completely feasible to keep track of things like that.
People are not going to learn, and get better if they just have a tool that does it for them.
But putting up timers? That's way too far.
The fact that this reads pixels means you could do nearly anything. It could keep track of each players loadout for you. It could generate a live mini map of the randomly generated tiles and show you which totems and gen spawns you got.
It could reveal the auras of gens you've passed by, and show you roughly what percentage they're at. For survivors you could literally read the exact percentage, which is basically adding several perks to your character simply by adding the "mod".
You could also, in theory, give yourself windows or just have it draw out the path you should take to loop a given tile. You could do nearly anything with "reading pixels" and "sampling audio", because that's automating the same inputs the player receives.
So no. If you don't have the game sense or game knowledge to do this by yourself, vanilla, then you should learn it. Not just install something that allows you to bypass it and never have to be bothered to learn it.
-1 -
what's this, you want killers to use game sense for optimizing stages? arent we removing game sense skill expression there? why should killers be forced to keep track of stages if optimal play regarding that is going to be patched out anyways? what's this hypocrisy lol
thou shall get good at the game but thou shall not be rewarded for it
what a circus
-5 -
unless devs sanction it, i'd refrain from using it, though if it works the way you said, then its not possible to track and its just up to your consciousness to use it, whether you want to trivialize hook / ds / bt tracking and take away another bit of skill from playing the killer or you actually are using it for optimizing playing suboptimally.
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In order to disallow something, you have to be able to detect it. If BHVR announces a policy TODAY saying they dont allow tape on your monitor while playing Huntress... it doesnt really matter. It wouldn't affect anything. The only person who would be able to tell if the tape is there are ppl in your house.
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I think your giving way too much credit to "reading pixels". All the things your talking about would require a program to have context and recognize things like windows. This program is just staring at a specific spot on the screen each map and reading if that spot turns red. Its got the computational complexity of a light switch. You can't make a mini map or everything else you said with that. Even things that show visual cues on a survivor model wouldn't be able to be tracked with this since it could happen anywhere on the screen.
-1 -
Why would asking people to use game sense to optimize gameplay reduce the ways in which players can use game sense to optimize gameplay? I'd love to hear an explanation for that one
5 -
Still true, still doesn't change if it's allowed or not.
4 -
It kinda does... In order for a rule or law to have any weight, it has to be enforceable. If you can't detect a rule being broken, you can't enforce it.
-2 -
The ability to enforce it doesn't change if it's allowed officially right now or not, but it can manipulate/change it yes.
They also weren't able to enforce the law against wheat in germany consistently, but it still wasn't legal. The inconsistency to enforce it surely was part of the reason it's now legal for the most part, but it wasn't the entire reason it is now. Just as example. (Don't ask me details about that please, I'm not too far in it, but it should do the job as example xD)
4 -
As others have pointed out, it looks like the conversation is moot because it's undetectable and therefore unenforceable.
Sadly this also widens the gulf between those on one platform or another, which is concerning.
-1 -
We can discuss the morality of something all day, but if it can't be DETECTED, it doesnt really matter. Thats why you can't police THOUGHTS for example. Someone can THINK their plans on a murder all day, but unless they write it down, verbalize it, or in some way make it detectable to others... there's 0 chance of anything happening. No investigation would find a thought.
-3 -
You are the one that wants to discuss things, it doesn't matter if you can enforce it if the question was if it's it's allowed. Things aren't more allowed if you can't enforce them.
4 -
Again, Killers can do this mentally or do an analog version of this with a sticky note anyway. I don't see the issue with this.
-2 -
I don't even say you shouldn't do this or something, I wouldn't but you do you. Thing is that the question was if it's allowed regarding EULA, and I'm pretty sure it's not because it's a thirdparty programm that's not whitelisted, and it obviously does change the flow of the game.
3 -
They arnt going to add something to a list thats not interacting with game files at all. You have a program running parallel to the game. Its kind of like how Spotify isn't going to be added to a list, even though people could play music while gaming.
-1 -
This is most likely against the EULA, and backed up by the in game report system. This is a 3rd party tool used to gain an advantage. Yes keeping track of these in an automated way is an advantage.
Think of it this way: if consoles can't do it, it's against the EULA.
2 -
This is a major fallacy.
That would be like saying: well calculators are not allowed on this math test, but I could do these problems mentally or on paper if I really wanted to, so there should be no issue using a calculator.
Just because there's another way to accomplish the same thing, that doesn't automatically mean it's permitted under the EULA.
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3rd party programs to give a legitimate pixel calibrated crosshair and analog tape on a monitor are two completely different things.
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But Reshade is also a third party tool used to gain an advantage. It's whitelisted.
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Thats kinda of a bad rule of thumb since consoles can't do ALOT of stuff thats deemed fair game. Until this update hits on the 29th, I can't use a mouse.Using a mouse and keyboard on this game isn't seen as against the EULA.
All this program seems to be doing is paying attention to the UI rather than showing anything that was meant to be hidden.
-2 -
EAC may or may not pick up on it. Many cheats can use the same technique to detect players otherwise hidden but within view. If EAC sees an app taking and reading lots of screen captures it may get flagged.
4 -
a hook counter would be so nice to not kill certain people
0 -
Yes and this program in difference to spotify actually manipulates your decisionmaking and gameplay. There are neutral programs that simply don't matter and don't have to be added to the whitelist, and there are some that actually change how you play and therefore normally would have to be added to be allowed 100%.
In the end we will probably continue to discuss this for ages because we both don't give up, so I call it a draw here.
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When it comes to the EULA, this program might violate this term inside it:
While participating in the Game, you also agree to comply with certain rules of conduct that govern your use of the Game (“Rules of Conduct”), for example you may not…
Use or distribute “auto” software programs, “macro” software programs or other “cheat utility” software program or applications.
Specifically, the part about "cheat utility" software programs/applications. Whether this program you made counts as one is open to interpretation, I am not a lawyer so I don't know how this would be interpreted. I'm sure the way their EULA is written they have the right to ban you for this, but I doubt they would bother even if you said you were using it (it is likely undetectable by EAC). That said, distributing this might put you on their radar.
On an aside, I'm fascinated by the idea of a program like this. I'm assuming you made this in Python. What parts of the UI are you reading? Are you using a timer after a hook, the progress bar under the hook, or scoring events? Does this work with perks like reassurance, kinship, and scourge hook: monstrous shrine?
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It's made as a Windows Forms app using C#. I'm using Emgu.CV library to monitor the HUD. Mostly, I monitor survivor portraits and the space around them. To simplify: if the survivor's portrait matches the hooked icon template, they are considered hooked. If, after that, the survivor's portrait no longer matches the hooked icon template, they are unhooked.
There are also a couple more scenarios I had to account for, like the survivor reaching the next hook stage before getting unhooked. For this, I monitor the area around the survivor's portrait and check it with the blood splatter template. The blood splatter appears when the survivor's status changes, including getting to the next stage. If I see the splatter and the hook template matches as well, I add another hook stage.
Post edited by olmighty on1 -
So, here are just some of the things you can do simply by reading pixels, exactly as OP is doing:
- Read the name of the map on load-in, and overlay a static minimap image in the corner of the layout with clock numbers (or really any map-specific image you like).
- Read every buff or debuff in the corner of your screen, as well as read every hex or notification popup on the side. Between these two alone, it could also overlay a real-time killer build so you can track exactly what the killer is running.
- Read and maintain a record of every gen's last known progress on the map, even if you don't know the location.
- Read every perk and item on your character and give exact cooldowns/charges remaining. This could trivially track which survivors still have Pain Res charges to use and just show you that info.
- Give an exact timer for the EGC.
- Give a countdown for opening the gate based on the progress bar.
- Read every BP event and give a real-time estimate for the match.
You also have the added problem that, presumably, this also tracks StB, since it would have to follow the hook and understand that hook stage was transferred to another survivor. The only way to do that is by also tracking the audio, and knowing not only that a survivor screamed, but which one by hearing their voice. If you add audio to the mix, you can also easily:
- Track killer cooldowns as survivor by listening for the M2.
- Not only track cooldowns, but identify the add-ons used in a pretty big number of cases. (You could, for example, have an overlay that starts counting down the instant you reveal Ghostie that tells you when his shroud is back up).
- With both audio and pixels, the system can narrow down the exact killer and just show you their picture within the first 30 or so seconds of the match.
- Get a much wider range of confirmed perks and addons to display. No guessing "was that brutal?" The "mod" can just detect that the animation was exactly fast enough for that addon.
I'm also going to point out that, while you seem to be basing your argument on the technical functionality here, I'm objecting from a principle standpoint. Especially if someone were to spend the time to train an LLM on the limited number of things in this game, there's almost nothing you can't do with just "reading pixels".
I'm opposed to it on principle: these are all things you as the player can do, and should be expected to do. Can you keep track of the hook stages on a piece of paper? Absolutely, and it comes at the cost of turning away from the keyboard to mark it down. Can you track these cooldowns roughly in your head? Absolutely, this is called game sense. We shouldn't be pushing to offload things like game sense and game knowledge onto a 3rd party program to keep track of for us.
This game is already not as complicated as people make it out to be sometimes, but rather than stepping up and learning, growing, or improving, we shouldn't be encouraging people to just give up and install software that does it for us. If the game is going to boil down to "who has the better 3rd party software installed", well… the same thing can be said of literal cheats or hacks.
7 -
This is actually a good point. Exploring this method more leads to oversimplification of the game in the end, which would suck.
Speaking from a technical standpoint, I doubt that you can do an app that would do ALL of the things that you mentioned (template matching is computationally expensive), but specializing in one thing is certainly an option.
Of course, I'm not going to do this. I made this app to learn new things while trying to make the game I love better (as I see it).
I don't think the hook counter and the timers the app provides are a problem, though. But I can see your argument - if we do this, where do we draw the line?
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I've just realized, if you listen to the stereo audio it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility to create a plugin that gives the angle towards a particular audio queue such as footsteps, and the approximate distance. There's no end to the clearly-cheating people can do with this capability. Absolutely, needs to be considered a fair play violation
4 -
For alot of these examples you COULD technically do it... although I dont really see how they'd be problematic if its just using the information the game is already showing you. You knowing the killer is running a perk after the perk icon pops up on your screen as a part of the normal UI is pretty normal. Perks that the UI DOESNT show such as Whispers would continue to be unknown.
The map thing KINDA would work... if the maps have no variation. The maps DO have variation though, whether that be map shape, window spawn, pallet spawn, gen location or specific tiles. As for the gen progress thing, that wouldn't be possible. If you dont know their location, how would a program that functions based off what you see know it?
This kinda of simplistic program is also looking at a specific part of your screen looking for a specific color. Its not searching the whole screen looking for a gen and figuring out progress by watching the pistons or anything.
-3 -
Why are you buying a console to use mouse and keyboard? That's besides the point anyway. Input methods were clearly excluded from the conversation when we're talking about 3rd party programs and not controllers lol.
2 -
It's whitelisted under easy anti cheat most likely. If the devs saw the greyscale and red reshades most high MMR killers use that go way beyond accessibility and are for a competitive advantage, it would be banned in a heartbeat in my opinion lol.
3 -
PC players play an online game without using 3rd party software for advantages challenge (impossible)
-2 -
In that case, can we talk about voice chat? Nintendo switch doesnt have ANY.
As for the first part though... I dont think anyone buys consoles because they hate the option of using kbm. Controllers are able to be used on PC.
-2 -
Apart from the fact that there's probably only at most 500 switch players that actually play the game on a weekly basis, switch players can use voice chat. They can use discord on their phones. Switch 2 players can use the new native voice chat features on their devices.
As for the first part though... I dont think anyone buys consoles because they hate the option of using kbm. Controllers are able to be used on PC.
I have no idea what you're trying to say, let alone what point you're trying to make. This conversation was clearly about using 3rd party software to obtain competitive advantages. If you cannot use that software on consoles, it is most likely considered against the EULA in 99.9% of cases. That was my point. Not about controllers. Not about the switch 1 not being able to use voice chat natively vs everyone else who can (PC, PS4, PS5, xbox one, xbox series X, etc.). Third Party Software used for an advantage. If you're using reshade to deepen every shade of red to see scratch marks farther than the devs intended? That should be against EULA in my opinion. If you're using a tool to track hook timers/hook states, that should be against EULA in my opinion. Based on the in game report system, "any third party software used to gain a competitive advantage" breaks the EULA. That's the wording. It doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with the statement, that's the wording for if it breaks the EULA or not.
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