http://dbd.game/killswitch
"M1 Killer" Does Not (Inherently) Mean "Weak Killer"
I've had the idea for this post in mind for ages, I'm not subtweeting anyone here lol
This is a thing you'll see people reference in passing quite a bit. If something harms lower-tier killers, it'll often be phrased as hurting M1 killers, or you'll see people say "M1 killers don't have the luxury of doing [X] thing".
My issue with this is that it doesn't make any sense once you try and define M1 killer in any way that actually looks at how their power works and where their damage comes from.
Now, as with most terms in DBD, there's no set definition and people's personal definition can vary by reasonable amounts. For the sake of this conversation, I define M1 killer as "A killer whose downs come exclusively from basic attacks, and whose power exists to make that easier". This also includes killers whose powers can injure but can't down, like Legion and Trapper.
However, if your definition is slightly different to that, everything I'm saying will still apply.
The issue effectively, summed up in a TL;DR, is this: Some M1 killers are very strong, some M1 killers are very weak, and some are in the middle. You can't make a sweeping statement about "M1 killers" because there's so much variation you can't encompass all of them.
For examples…
Everyone will agree, I think, that Wraith is an M1 killer. Any definition that looks at power design and where damage comes from will conclude that Wraith is constantly smacking people with basic attacks, and his power only exists to close the gap to make that easier. Regardless of how strong or weak you think Wraith might be, he's definitely an M1 killer.
So, then, with that in mind… how do we classify Spirit? She is also constantly smacking people with basic attacks and her power only exists to close the gap and make that easier— the two killers even both have stealth/information denial as part of this. Somewhat unavoidably, Spirit is also an M1 killer… and she spent years as the game's third strongest killer. Even now, she's still very good.
There are other examples too. Pinhead can only down with basic attacks (and can only damage with them too, without one specific addon), but he's generally quite good. Singularity is also in the same position. Hag may be on the downturn these days, but she used to be very strong, and while she's a little more arguable because her power is more transformative, it's still not a damaging M2- she's hitting people with basic attacks.
This also works in reverse, too. You may be tempted to say that M1 killers may not be inherently weak, but M2 killers are inherently strong… but Hillbilly was weak for a long time and he's one of the poster boys for M2 killers. Similarly, Pig was a bottom of the barrel killer until relatively recently, and she's always had access to a damaging M2 that can down.
(Personally I'd consider Pig and Demogorgon to be a third classification of "hybrid" killers, but if we're doing a binary between M1 and M2, she's an M2 killer - just a weak one.)
I don't necessarily have a hard conclusion here, but the closest I've come is "don't dismiss killers who don't have a damaging M2, and also be more willing to just say 'weak killers' if that's who you're talking about". It ultimately doesn't matter that much, but it's been a pet peeve of mine for ages.
There's one more thing to note, and that's to pre-emptively counter a different definition of M1 killer I've seen a handful of people present, which is "killers whose powers are weak enough that they have to run around loops for M1 attacks".
In short, this is nothing. That's recursive. "These killers struggle because they're M1 killers, and they're M1 killers because they struggle, and they struggle because they're M1 killers…" Just wanted to comment on that before I ended here.
Comments
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I'll start but agreeing that "M1 killers" shouldn't be viewed as weak for being M1 killers. I generally believe "M1 killers" should refer to killer who have to, in some sense, play loops normally. Killers like Wraith, Legion and Clown have to play loops normally in the sense they have to respect distance, vaults, walls and Pallets. Even killers like trapper or pig who have M2 damage respect these aspects of the game.
Killers which aren't M1 killers are stuff like Spirit and Blight (who don't really respect distance), Pyramid head and Nurse (who don't respect walls) or Hunteress and Deathslinger (who can disrespect vaults and windows). This is still a somewhat murky definition as "respects" and "normally" as somewhat wishy washy terms but is a good frame of reference as a whole if you want to refer to killers who have to respect and perhaps struggle a bit more with loops.
Are M1 killers weak? Kinda? Naturally a definition which stems from a lack of a strength will result in weaker killers but the idea that a killer is weak because they're a "M1 killer" is reductive and unhelpful. Pinhead and Wraith are M1 killers who are pretty good and strong killers like Plague and Oni do have to play like M1 killers for significant parts of a match. Other killers like Vecna also emulate these elements when his power is off cool-down. Killers shouldn't be reduced to M1 killer, categorisation is useful for generalisation not specifics, but to dismiss the concept is equally not as useful.
Edit: had a typo
Post edited by Riski on8 -
Saying pig is an m2 killer because she has that joke of an attack that is her dash is like saying springtrap is an m1 if you never use his ace. Personally I think of m1 killers as killers who have to respect traditional looping, meaning a safe pallet will always be safe and if a survivor is using checkspots/measuring well their distance the killer has no agency at the loop. This way killers that can injury with m1 but their power makes them have agency at loops like spirit and singularity are not m1s, but killers like pig or legion which rely on thr survivor being bad or having no resources to get a down are m1 killers.
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The point of bringing up Pig in this context is to highlight that people have started making the strength of a killer more of an important factor in whether they're considered an M1 killer than how the power is actually designed.
Pig is not a killer whose power has no way of damaging survivors directly. She has Ambush. It's not very good, but it's there, which means… she's an M2 killer, just one whose M2 isn't very good.
I also think defining it by how they play at loops instead of how their power is designed to play around loops leans into that recursive definition I laid out in the post. Singularity and Spirit have a power designed to help them land M1s, not a power that itself damages with an M2. I laid out how similar Spirit is to Wraith in this regard, and people usually consider Wraith an M1 killer.
Pig and Legion don't have the same power design. Legion can only injure, meaning their power still forces them to land basic attacks and only exists to make downing that way easier, but Pig has a direct-damage ability on M2.(Though again, I personally find "Hybrid" a useful term for Pig specifically, same as Demogorgon and arguably killers like Nemesis/Pyramid Head/Springtrap. They're sort of designed to use both at different times, as opposed to a killer like Huntress or Hillbilly that are designed to favour their M2s noticeably.)
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ru community uses the term "walking killer" as in "killer relying on 0.6 movement speed difference and m1 lunge"
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I could see that being more useful as a term.
I'd still sooner just suggest people say "weak killer" if that's all they mean, though.
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I consider M1 killers to be ones that primarily down with M1 but have poor mobility/out of power options like Legion, Clown Wraith, Pig weak for one simple thing. Exhaustion. Certain exhaustion perks and funnily enough the most common ones like dramaturgy, sprint burst and lithe cause them to be unbearable to play as because no matter what you spend 15-20 seconds just catching back up or have them use it to get to a main building.
I still remember in the Sadako PTB I played one normal game and the first game was just exhaustion pre drop that I could do nothing about.1 -
Isn't that still just defining them by the fact that they're weak instead of how their power is designed? It still leaves open the fact that killers who are designed the exact same way as Wraith, Spirit specifically, are not considered M1 killers by this definition.
Wraith can catch up to Exhaustion, too, though that's besides the point.It still feels like you could just say "weak killers" and be more accurate. Maybe "immobile killers" in this context, too. It doesn't have to invoke the way they're designed but also do it kinda wrong.
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weak killer is not really it, you need to emphasise the principle difference - killers using (mid)ranged attacks / dashes to get into the position for hit / cut corners or killers relying on movement speed diff and m1 as main chase instrument.
i think the classification should also make a distinction on whether or not the killer can counter shift+w alongside looping. f/e kaneki by definition is an m1/walking killer except his power deletes shift+w from the picture, pretty much balancing out the massive weakness, assuming of course you arent playing for intentional gamedesign scamper kidnap
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Sure, that could make sense, I could see that.
Though I don't see Kaneki as the exception here, he just doesn't rely on walking to catch up and get hits. He just wouldn't be a walking killer by this definition.
That or he'd be a really strong one, depending on how you define it, I think.1 -
well he relies on walking in loops unless you consider very high skilled bodyblock power plays which is why im distinguishing between antiloop and anti shift w
in any case it's important to note that while we often talk about m1s/walking killers as "weak" we should still bundle up killers like kaneki or singularity as examples of m1s/walking killers balanced around that weakness thus being strong in spite of the fundamental flaw
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I did also say out of power options. Decent survivors will still dominate a wraith because its just spam vault window to force uncloak.
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It's still a definition that revolves entirely around how good the killer is, though, that's my main point.
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For the sake of this conversation, I define M1 killer as "A killer whose downs come exclusively from basic attacks, and whose power exists to make that easier". This also includes killers whose powers can injure but can't down, like Legion and Trapper.
When people say "M1 killers are weak" most of the time they are referring to killer that have no power to get downs quickly, like Wraith, Sadako, Ghostface, Trapper, Legion. Although some of these can use their powers to injure or try some tricks on chase, most of the time they rely on the 4.6m/s speed and basic attacks to down survivors. Pig Ambush is considered by many too counterable or weak to rely on, so she is considered a M1 killer too. Demogorgon is considered by most an M2 killer since his power have enough potential to end chases consistently.
Singularity, Pinhead, Houndmaster, Spirit ARE NOT considered M1 killers by most of the community because their powers DO HAVE some components that help them get downs, even if they injure with a basic attack. Lets take Houndmaster as example: she injures most of the time with basic attacks. But her power - the dog - can hold people enough time to get a hit. So, even if she relies on basic attacks she cannot be considered a M1 killer, as her power give enough potential to end chases quickly, deny looping, counter bodyblocks, etc. If she relied only on the 4.6m/s to hurt/down survivors, her gameplay and overall strength would be much different.
The problem with the real M1 killers is that against people who are good they have little to no chase power, making their chases longer.
Lets take the shack loop as example. Without Bamboozle, Wraith, Legion and Sadako will struggle a lot to get a down, sometimes even when the pallet is not there anymore. They need to rely more on mindgames and survivor mistakes to get downs than killers with chase powers like the Unknown, Huntress or even Vecna.
Dead Dawg Saloon is classic for this: M1 killers without Bamboozle should not commit chases at the main building or their risk lose their game without doing a single hook stage. I have seen many killers DC after committing to chases in the main build, unaware of how strong that build was against weaker killers.
Sorry but talking like Spirit and the Ghostface or Wraith are in the same situation is not fair. These M1 killers - the real ones - are in a very bad situation against experienced survivors, since they struggle to get downs. They might not change since the root of the problem is their power design, which is simple but weak. I hope at least BHVR make some perks to help them in chase and small changes to make them stronger and viable in harder matches.
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I did address this at the end of the post. You're falling into recursive logic here - These killers are weak because they're M1 killers, and they're M1 killers because they're weak, and so on and so forth.
What you're describing is just a killer that is weak. Their powers are supposed to help them, but they struggle. They're designed to work such that their power makes getting M1s easier, but that doesn't always pan out. There's no reason to falsely invoke their power design by calling out "M1" when other killers who are M1 focused do just fine.
Genuinely, saying "these killers aren't M1 killers because their powers help them get hits" is something I just can't get behind. That should be what M1 killer means, if the definition is based on anything other than just how good the killer is. The split, if we're using the term "M1 killer", should be between killers whose damage comes from basic attacks and killers whose damage at least can come from something else.
If all you want to convey is killers who struggle to get hits at basic tiles… they're just weak. It's not because they damage with an M1, because other killers who also damage with an M1 don't struggle at these tiles.1 -
Keep in mind, Nurse's blink attacks use to be classified as a basic attack. Classifying Spirit as an M1 killer just because BHVR hasn't changed her phase lunge a "special attack" is stretching it.
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I think the term M1 Killer has become totally divorced from what it literally means.
For me, the first thing that comes to mind when I think 'M1 Killer' is a killer that has low map traversal which has absolutely nothing to do with any component of the name 'M1 Killer'. I'd never call Kaneki an M1 Killer even though he fits the literal verbiage of the label.
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The point isn't necessarily literally basic attack/special attack, it's how the power is designed to aid in damage.
Nurse is admittedly kind of a unique case, as she is in many ways, but I do think she works as an M2 killer in this context because using her power incurs a fatigue/cooldown. That puts it more in line with stuff like a Demo lunge or a Blight rush or a Hillbilly dash, y'know? It's a power that deals damage with specific constraints as opposed to a power that speeds her up for a regular basic attack or some such, the way killers like Wraith, Spirit, Clown, etc have.
She's definitely weird either way though.
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You right. Singularity is an M1 killer and look at him, hes a top 10 killer easily. Same with Houndmaster, tho shes kinda buggy so it makes her appear weaker
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Think that same logic applies to Hag?
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I mentioned Hag in the post.
Hag's arguable in either direction, but I'd personally lean towards M1 for her. If you whiff a blink attack, there's a fatigue before you can do stuff again, similar to whiffing a chainsaw sprint or using your last blighted rush, but you don't whiff a teleport the same way you don't whiff an uncloak or exiting Spirit's phase ability. I'm pretty sure there's no endlag on teleport at all, just a brief moment to regain control of your character.
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Houndmaster is as much of an M1 killer as Deathslinger is.
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I just see "M1 killer" as people who admit to not using their power at all these days lol.
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M1 killers are those that depend on M1 attacks to down survivors or have near useless M2 power that can damage survivors.
Trapper is a M1 killer because his traps are passive hazards. The dominant method of damage is M1.
M1 killers are not by nature weak. It's just M2 killers damage potential is greater when it can down a survivor. Top M1 killers have powers that help get that M1 but don't directly damage the survivor.
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No, i'm not. They aren't weak because they are "M1 killers", they are weak because they lack anti-loop and need to play around the loops to get hit with basic attacks. That is what make them M1. And because they lack anti-loop, they struggle against experienced survivors and organized teams, specially without chase perks. Therefore, they are weak.
Sorry, but you are creating a discussion that never existed in the community as is quite clear who are M1 killers and who is not. I don't know if you are new to DBD or not but this title of "M1 Killers" come from a long time ago, where most of the roster were M1. I think that these kind of speech that "M1 killers aren't weak, look at Singularity or Spirit" doesn't help nothing in game balance or quality of life, since not having a power that deals damage is not enough to classify a killer as a M1 killer.
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True true
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I'm not new in the least, I just disagree with the commonly cited use of the term. I don't think it's helpful and I think we'd be on much firmer ground discussing the game if this term weren't used this way.
The fact of the matter is, people consistently use "M1 killer" as a stand-in for "weak killer", often either ignoring killers that are equally M1 focused but very good or citing killers that have a damaging M2 attack.
My point is this: If the term is going to be "M1 killer", it should be used to define something about the killer's power. If the meaning is going to be "weak killer", the term used should reflect that more accurately.Or, TL;DR, if what you mean is "weak killer" just say that. Why bother with the misleading term?
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This is absurd, its like asking people to stop saying spiders are bugs because technically they arent. Yes techniclaly they are not but so many people already use the term and everyone knows what they mean when they use it that changing it is neither practical nor necesary. All the people here seem to have a consensus on m1 refering to bad killers at looping, you see how most of us could agree on the same killer being in the category, there is no change of term needed.
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Nothing wrong with attempting to be more accurate for a better understanding of the game, either way.
I think it's more interesting to think about killers in terms of design, and it's also more accurate. Either way, it's just a pet peeve of mine that everyone's accepted understanding of "M1 killer" has nothing to do with the words they're using.
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Defining the term to mean "weak killer" wouldn't help, because people would still disagree with most on which killers should be considered "weak killers".
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I mean for that we should actually take into account good players opinions. Timmy who believes dredge is not weak because he cannot loop on nightfall is not a good source compared to an actually good player/a comp player who actually can play effectively against strong killers and also have to know how to play weak killers to their max potential when they are chosen for sets.
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Good topic. I don't think its as much about M1 killers being considered inherently weak, but more that they are essentially the lowest common denominator for the killer roster. In that I mean that M2 killers generally have their power be a core part of their design in a more positive way comparatively. Lets take some examples:
Wraith: cloaking speeds up movement and can speed up many actions, but it also prevents him from attacking until uncloaked. It also increases his stun duration. You loop him and adapt to his curveballs like bodyblocking resources while cloaked.
Trapper: His traps can completely shut down resources from windows and pallets to loops, but generally requires things like planning or routing, and can cause more harm than good if the survivor is good at recognizing opportunities to detatch to other tiles so its less effective in chase. You loop him and make reads on when he's going to place (or bait placing) traps mid chase.
Clown: Pink bottles are excellent at hindering/zoning and preventing resource usage (namely fast vaults) but need to be reloaded regularly. Yellow bottles give a similar tightrope as they are both beneficial, but can be directly detrimental if misused. You loop him and make reads on his mindgames concerning zoning and denying vaults.
Pig: Crouching hides her TR and makes her shorter, but she needs to charge her dash or stand back up in order to attack. Giving survivors a nice hat is good to excellent slowdown, but there are limited quantity for the whole match and the actual lethality threat of head pops is fairly low. They also don't activate until a gen is finished, and might as well not exist in endgame if they're not already active. You loop her and position under pallet to react to her dash attack mindgame, or leave the loop if it will gain you more distance from her crouching and standing.
The main things that a lot of M1's have in common is that their power is there to help them secure hits (instead of directly securing them) and that their powers usually come with a drawback to that same ability to potentially hinder them from securing said hits. This means that their baseline counter is usually pretty similar, most of their attributes like movement speed are generally the same, and said counters have ancillary adjustments being based on how their power affects interactions. Honestly I feel like this could be expanded to "group" more killers that have similarities, like
DashorRangedbased powers, as they usually have similar reads/mindgames/core counterplay within their groupings.M2 killers by comparison tend to have their M2 power directly secure their hits. Even though Nurse could technically be considered an M1 killer (please hear me out, as its the only way she can actually deal damage) her power increases the direct lethality of her M1 considerably. Ditto for killers like Blight, hell even Hag and Spirit. They have drawbacks like the M1 killers, but they're generally considered M2 because the majority of your hits are usually going to start with an M2. Their powers directly amplify their M1 to a major degree, often (but not always, Blight) due to drawbacks like base movement speed that make their direct chase worse than M1 killers. They also often (but again, not always) tend to have cooldowns on their powers as a counterbalance. Obviously the more pure examples like Huntress rely on their powers actually dealing a large portion of their lethality instead of amplifying their M1.
Some killers like Oni kinda form outliers, since even with his rush, if he has it available even his normal M1 can also instadown. His dash is his main attraction, but it makes him feel more like a super powerful M1 than an M2 in that regard. He's an example where his lethality is kinda more even between the buttons in a way, and has a more adaptive counterplay style (including power denial by not bleeding.) I think Plague might fit in here as well, due to how limited her access to vile purge is. While very powerful, its not where the majority of your hits are going to come from unless the survivors basically hand it to you on a platter. They also use their base M2's to kinda charge up to their powered forms, without limiting their upgraded form to M1s like Myers. They're kinda like M1 killers that become gigapowerful and gain damaging M2's that can be prevented or gained based on survivor play.
I think the big thing is that M1 is generally used as a grouping of killers based on how their core gameplay loop works, both for and against. When you compare them to M2 killers, there's a general homogenization to them, where their power is more like a twist than a direct strategy. The most universal answer to T3 Myers has always been "just loop him :)" because even with his instadown, you can handle him in T3 the same way you would any other M1 killer and be pretty successful at it (minus the obvious aforementioned twists, like his faster vault speed and tombstone stuff)
Anti-loop is an interesting aspect, since both M1 and M2 killers can have it. Hell all 4 of my examples have it to varying degrees, as do other killers like Doctor. I think the bigger picture on that point is that M1 anti-loop tends to also be more twist, while M2 anti-loop tends to be more core. Not always of course, but that tends to get more into the killers that start to blur the binary.
TL:DR: M1 killers aren't necessarily weak, but their design similarities lead them to have similar counterplay retain a lot of effectiveness, and their powers can often hurt them as much as help them (with exceptions.) That said, Obviously some of those elements can apply to M2 killers as well. Part of why people tend to consider M2 killers more powerful is because M2 killers tend to use their power as a base, instead of having a common base that the powers then build off of. Simply put, they're just kinda more unique in a way, even when they occasionally have similarities amongst themselves, and that generally makes them a bit more tricky to directly counter. Even with that, M1 killers can and sometimes are absolutely stronger than some M2 killers, they just generally require better ratios in macro considerations like lethality or mobility to make up for it. It also may be time to expand our classifications a bit due to how many killers now kinda daywalk between the two.
TL:DR the TL:DR : M1 doesn't mean weak, M2 doesn't mean strong, but they tend to be weighted a bit due to how players are expected to adapt to them.
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Comp DBD should never be an argument for anything, because they have so many custom rules, that it isn't anything like public DBD games.
I really don't care how well certain killers do, when a gigantic list of custom rules is added to the game.
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While they have many rules they are also the players that know how to best play the game. I will 100% trust more the opinion of a comp player on how good doctor is rather than someone who says he is either a hidden gem of a killer and no one really knows it or he is somehow op and impossible to loop.
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Yes it does. M1 killers are at the mercy of a survivor utilizing their resources and playing them correctly, and the RNG of pallet spawns. They can't do anything about god pallets and windows. This results in longer chases, which results in less pressure and uncontested gen progression, which results in more losses. M1 killers with niche and stealth focused powers are absolutely inherently weaker than killers with consistent anti-loop powers.
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Again, though. A killer whose power only exists to get easier M1s was the third best killer in the game for years, and is currently very strong.
There's no reason to consider someone like Wraith an M1 killer but Spirit not. The only definitions of M1 killer that could possibly include Wraith but not Spirit are definitions that are focused on weakness, not on design, and that's recursive. It's just saying these are weak killers because they're weak, you might as well cut out the middle man and just say weak killers to begin with.
Some M1 killers are very good. Some are weaker and unable to deal with strong resources well. Some are in the middle.
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Well, then you are making a confusion. Most of the time when people say "M1 killer" they aren't meaning they are "all the weak killers", but rather they are killers who rely on basic attack to get hits without any chase power to help them. We could start saying "killers who rely on basic attack to get hits without any chase power to help them in chases" but i prefer saying M1 killers.
Again, saying Singularity, Pinhead or Spirit are M1 killers are kinda of a stretch because this term - M1 - usually refers to killers without anti-loop. If Wraith could hit survivors without uncloacking he wouldn't be an M1 killer, because his power would make him so fast that he wouldn't rely only on the 4.6m/s speed to get hits on most of the tiles.
Not all weak killers are M1 but all M1 are quite weak because of how their power works, fundamentally. Trickster is a M2, isn't strong and his problem doesn't come from being a M1 killer. Calling Trickster a M1 killer just because he is weak doesn't make sense as he has a power to get downs, even if not a strong one.
Fundamentally, "killers who rely on basic attack to get hits without any chase power to help them in chases" have a common core of issues, that why people call them M1.
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M1s with anti loop or mobility are really fun to play imo, wraith/clown/freddy I can play all day. But the basic ones like pig, trapper, ghostface no i'll pass, recently I had my worst game ever with doctor I'm never playing him again
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I mean, who actually fits that definition?
Wraith, Clown, Doctor, Freddy, Dredge, and arguably Myers all do not fit this definition because while they rely on basic attacks to get hits, they do have chase powers to help them in chase, and they're all killers typically considered M1 killers in these conversations - at least, most of them are, I'm admittedly not sure how people typically classify Dredge.
It does cover Trapper at least, and I'd be reasonably confident saying it covers Sadako, but beyond that, it kinda shorts out. Hag could be thrown on the pile but that's only three killers, not nearly as many as people are usually implying.Working backwards from needing to define M1 killers in a way that highlights their weakness causes issues like this. It's just not actually all that helpful as a framing device.
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This game doesn't have an official leaderboard, so there is zero evidence that that comp players are the best players.
Comp players are comp players because they joined a comp team.
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You can put the worse comp team against any pub player and the pub players will be eaten alive.
Saying comp players are not better than pub players is insane, when its obvious who actually can win.
Example, the highest win streak in the game which was against pub players with NO restrictions nor rules, would not be beaten by almost 1800 teams of pub players, and the ones to end it were a comp team. If that doesnt tell you that even without restrictions comp players are vastly better than pub players idk in what world you live in.
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Comp players are better than the AVERAGE public player. That is a 100% fair claim to make.
Claiming they are the best players in the game, is a massive exaggeration. There is way too high of a chance, that the best players in the world, just don't participate in comp DBD. It's far more likely the best players just don't want to participate in a comp format that has a massive custom ruleset.
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Wraith, Sadako, Myers, Ghostface, Pig, Legion. These are for sure.
Plague without power and even Oni before his first hits are M1 too, although their kits compensate their lack of anti-loop in the start of the match.
Freddy/Clown/Doctor are quite complicated to say they are M1 in the same way the first ones since they have a consistent anti-loop power, even if not the strongest in the game.
When people want to address that "M1 killers struggles against x" its because the killers in the first group struggles against some situations that killers with anti-loop power struggles less, like bodyblocks, some structures or some perks and items.
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Wraith and Pig undeniably have a chase power. How strong they are would be besides the point here, they just have one.
For the others, there's no reason why Freddy/Clown/Doctor would be complicated. Just like Wraith and just like Spirit, they have a power that helps them secure M1s instead of doing damage directly. They're just M1 killers, it only seems complicated because you're working backwards from wanting to define M1 killers as the ones who struggle with loops and bodyblocking and the like.
Again, my point is that the group of killers you're drawing a circle around here aren't defined by being M1-focused. They're defined by struggling with specific things. Other killers who are also M1-focused don't struggle with those things, so if you want to make this a cohesive group, it should use a term that actually gets at the heart of the problem and not a term that heavily implies it should also apply to some of the strongest killers in the game.
In my opinion, anyway. This is hardly critically important but I do firmly believe it.-2 -
In all fairness, comp players generally are the type of ppl to be constantly doing callouts and are able to understand those callouts. If you put a typical soloQ players on a comp team, they're probably not gonna be able to do the same. Comp players are not only the ppl who individually play well like you might see from non-comp players, but are generally hyper efficient due to being better at functioning as a team.
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Again, I'll say it's completely fine to claim comp players are better than average players.
But calling them the BEST players in the game, is an over-exaggeration, considering how absolutely niche the DBD comp scene is in this game.
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Not every comp player is in the best of the best bracket.
Some of them are just… decent. Except you don't notice those that much as the top dogs.
The worst comp team may have just joined comp last week and installed the game 2 months ago.
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I feel like the mix up here is how they all are playing together. Even if you get 4 players who individually are better than each of the 4 comp players, I would still say those comp players are probably going to perform better due to they're constantly working as a whole unit. Other ppl might call out that they dropped shack pallet, but the comp guys are calling out that they dropped pallet at 7 o'clock.
Theres also the general endgame mindset that's different. I remember back in the day when the "de-pip squad" were doing their streaks with the goal of ensuring the killer lost. They had no problem not saving someone because a 3 man escape is still a win for survivors and a loss for killers. Alot of normal players will turn a winning game into a loss trying to get everybody out.
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I still don't care.
There are plenty of SWFs in this game, that are using voice comms extremely well, and never play comp DBD. And it also doesn't give any proof that comp killers are the best killers.
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I wasn't even talking about the killer aspect. Was specifically talking about how comp survivors are generally better at working as a unit than their non-comp counterparts. Normally 4 man SWFs are just ppl screwing around with their friends and the voice chat is filled with banter.
When you get to the killer aspect of comp, you have to remember they dont get to just choose who they want to play as. They have to be equally ready to play as any killer. They'd obviously wouldn't be as good as ppl who 1 trick a specific killer at that killer.
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If "They'd obviously wouldn't be as good as ppl who 1 trick a specific killer at that killer", then we've already admitted that comp players aren't necessarily the best players in the game.
And you keep trying to compare comp DBD to average players. When you say "Normally 4 man SWFs", you're literally talking about the average skill level. As I said before, claiming the comp players are better than average players, is fine.
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