What if Invocations took a hook state instead of making you Broken?
I think a hook state would be a much more palatable, but roughly equivalent tradeoff for invocation perks.
Being Broken for the entire game means you're going to lose out on 3 Health States across the game. Trading a hook state means you'd only lose out on 2 Health States, but also has the downside of having less chances to proc certain perks related to being unhooked.
However, the upside of this is being ambushed won't instantly end your chances of getting away as it would likely be when permanently injured, and won't force you into running perks to cover for the major downside of being injured all game (like IW, DH, OTR, DS, etc).
I think Invocations are generally too risky at the moment, and this would be a way to still have a heavy price, without having the issue of dying instantly if the killer catches you off guard (as is generally the case when permabroken with No Mither or Invocations etc).
I think Treacherous Crows would still need improvements on top of this base change (i.e. not requiring a Survivor to be in the Terror Radius), but Weaving Spiders might be remotely viable by itself with these caveats.
What do y'all think? I think Invocations are a very cool idea but need some base improvement somewhere.
Comments
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No trading a hook state is even more not worth using invocations the cost is the time spent casting the invocation broken just needs to be removed from the requirements
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This is actually a pretty creative idea! I think it works even better if you consider invocations are done in the basement. Upon completion, I can imagine some sort of animation happening where the entity brings you onto one of the basement hooks.
That's a little bit different than the idea you proposed, since you'd still need a teammate to go and bring you off the hook. Plus you open yourself up to the chance of going 2nd, or even just flat out dying on first hook if the killer decides to defend basement. Perhaps it could be balanced in other ways to compensate for this, like a quicker invocation duration or better effects.
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It is a pretty creative idea.
I think that the Invocations shouldn't all have the exact same downside, as is really restricts them in a bad way.
I think that Treacherous Crows should have a downside of being permanently Oblivious. That way, you don't have to make it op just to outweigh a downside that doesn't make sense.
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So from ez down to ez tunnel?
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Ultimately, I don't think there's a way to get a perk that requires you to go into the basement and stay there for 60 seconds, after which you lose either a hookstate or a permanent health state, to work. The investment required to prime this perk demands a pay-off that has to be agonising the killer, which would make it terrible for both sides.
The cost needs to come down, and so does the benefit. For example, instead of 60 seconds and perma-broken for 10 charges off all gens, how about 30 seconds and broken until hooked for a single-use BNP effect?
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I like this idea but I also think invocations need more than this one change. I love the magical elements of the game and i also love sitting in the stupid little circle but the reward is far from good enough to negate both the risk and the wasted time, even with this change.
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It's a nice idea, but even thenbit's rather harsh.
Another idea could be once the invocation is done you are Broken. When rescued from the hook, you can be healed from injured to healthy, but then the next time you are hit you become broken and so on.
It still causes a risk, but gives them a fighting chance against anybody who wishes to see them out quickly.
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That‘s what I suggested for weaving spiders since it came out and I always got negative feedback.
I think it would be great for weaving spiders, but other invocations should have downsides fitting to their effects. Treasures crows for example should either make you oblivious or not have a downside at all.
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id rather leave no blood trails . id take no Mither but it's suspicious to do and I frankly don't have the perk slots
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Thats the worst idea for Invocation I have ever seen lol
You will give more value to your team being injured but still having to be hooked 3 times until death. Trading that for only 2 hooks is more a killer buff than anything. Most of the time survivors staying injured and just focusing on gens is what makes the biggest difference in matches.
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Doing invocation while having two hook states then immediately sacrifices the survivor after completed. 😂
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I like this idea maybe shorten the time it requires to sit down in basement too especially the treacherous crows is currently useless.
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Because a BNP is consumed within the trial, while a perk is reusable. You wouldn't need to keep spending BP on it.
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Bubba would be so sad to find someone in his basement dead on the floor, there are perfectly good hooks right there…
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In the rare invite I'm in the mood to die and I bring an invocation, I always bring No Mither too. I've yet to be intercepted at the basement. Invocations just aren't common enough anymore for killers to investigate.
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I don't see that as a worthwhile trade tbh. Invocations are pretty bad and I don't see a way to make them worth using without a massive overhaul.
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I think with this change, Weaving Spiders would actually be kind of worth it. Treacherous Crows needs it's own buffs separately.
I think Invocations kind of need a heavy price to keep their identity. Otherwise Weaving Spiders would basically just be a basement generator.
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I was going to say something like this. Genuinely kudos to OP for trying to improve upon the idea, but it's like playing musical chairs. The Invocation mechanic has to change entirely for it to be both viable and attractive.
I like your idea, but I also wonder if even that would make it more attractive. I'd almost want to change it so that being on the Invocation does something like map-wide Prove Thyself or something along those lines.
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Maybe instead just broken with a time limit depending on the perk? You could even finally do all invocations at the same time and add the broken times together. Something 300 seconds for weaving spiders and 60 seconds for treacherous crows.
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Half as long and a third as broken for what's likely to be one third of the value. I'd say that's better. More generally applicable too, don't need to rush it first thing.
Can always be numerically adjusted, much more easily than the current form.
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I can't see Trecherous Crows needing any dowside with it's current effect. If they increase aura time and remove scaring crows from survivor pov then sure why not. But the TC invocation is so insanely underwhelming that I wouldn't run it even when it doesn't have any dowside because the random aura for 2s somewhere across map what you won't even notices won't truly benefit team. Not even saying that seeing killer's aura is not as crazy viable. That's why no one runs perks like Fogwise, Alert etc. plus there are multiple ways to negate that by killer which is just a cherry on cake on top of already poor mechanic.
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Treacherous Crows would need a massive set of changes to be viable. It's one of the few perks I will say is truly useless and a throw to run... and giving up a hook state for it would be a huge penalty... I'd want something much better than auras for my hook state.
Tbh, I struggle to think of any remotely reasonable effect I'd give up a hook state for... even Weaving Spiders I wouldn’t trade a hook state, cause I can take take perks to mitigate issues with broken, such as OTR, Decisive Strike, Dead Hard, Iron Will, and take perks that benefit from it like Resilience, Made For This. A hook state, just brings me closer to death, cause if I can't heal, I'm closer to being dead than I was with Broken, and all those same perks above (notably DH, DS and OTR) I get less uses of.
Invocation need a few improved rules just to give them a healthy and scalable design: -
- Unique penalties that correlates to the effect/strength of the Invocation. Broken/hook states are harsh penalties to give out, and those penalties kinda forces Invocations to have really gnarly effects to compensate.
- Ability to do multiple Invocation at the same time. The stacking penalties from point 1 is a sufficient penalty to have this be a thing. This also allows you to equip more than 2 Invocations if we get a new one (as you need the active ability buttons to set which one you want currently, and on cotnroller you run out of buttona for 3 Invocations).
- I'd probably add a 30s minimum participation requirement to handle multiple players equipping Invocations for different effects, so a SWF survivor can't turn up at the end and pop it immediately.
- Perhaps a special HUD change visible to both sides so both survivors and killers know who has an Invocation effect. If we wanna get really cool, add a subtle effect to the survivor themselves, such as a few Entity infused Spiders running across their model, or their eyes glow Entity orange for Treacherous Crows like Vecna's Eye..
Changes to Invocations:
- Buff the effect of Treacherous Crows to also gives the auras of any survivors who disturb crows regardless of distance, and also make its penalty Oblivious not Broken. This makes the HUD and survivors in chase useful for other survivors to track the killer and generally help the survivor team with useful auras.
- Consider changing Weaving Spiders to be permanent Exposed not Broken. This makes Weaving Spiders a better choice against M2 killers more than M1 killers. Though so form of healing Invocation might be good to have Exposed as a penalty, which of course would synergise with WS as who cares if you're exposed if you're broken? 😉
These changes actually give meaningful use of Invocations that is scalable as you add more. Equipping multiple Invoactions can give survivors a lot of good buffs... at the expense of giving 1 player a lot of penalties that makes it very hard for them themselves to survive. The more invications you take, the fewer perks you have to mitigate the Invocations penalty, but you make your 3 teammates much stronger.
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Invocation reworks:
Trecherous Crows - aura is revealed for 6s, survivors no longer scare crows. You suffer exposed status effect for the rest of the trial.
Weaving Spiders - every generator (along with currently blocked ones) will lose 10 charges needed to finish the generator. Invocator's repair and healing speed is reduced by 40 % for the rest of the trial.
New invocation ideas:
Mending Wolves - completing the ritual will grant every survivor ability to heal in the basement at 70 % speed. (HUD indicator still gives away perk activation)
Hiding mice - completing the ritual will make all survivors aura surpressed. The invocator's aura is revealed to the killer if they are repairing gens, cleansing totems or self healing for the rest of the trial.
Broken shells - completing ritual will grant team 4 tokens. Any time a survivor is exposed they will lose healthstate instead. The perk then deactivates. If not every token is lost untill EGC, then the survivors will be able to recover from dying state for every token left.
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Invocation Burning Hands for a healing Invocation maybe? 😅
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Honestly, with how dangerous buffs to healing can get, I'd be wary of any kind of healing invocation.
If it was a flat heal speed increase to everyone, that'd make resets leagues faster for the rest of the trial, making it incredibly hard for the killer to maintain pressure. We don't want another OG Circle of Healing situation.
Unless it made the healing bar slightly shorter like Weaving Spiders does to gens, but the effect would have to be minimal, and thus hard to balance with the harsh downside.
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Is a fair point, I was more goofing off really with that suggestion, but to be serious it is quite interesting thinking of a healing Invocation.
Your hook state suggestion might well be a worthwhile punishment for such an Invocation to be fair. It's a great buff... but comes with a pretty steep cost
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giving oblivious instead of broken would just break Trracherous Crows, would it not? perk only works if a survivor is inside the TR
I want that prerequisite removed so bad T_T
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Bah I forgot to add that part and hoped noone would notice cause edit os broken... xD
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I actually think that's a nerf honestly, I'd rather be Broken than lose a hook stage, yeah you can't heal but being down a hook stage means you suddenly became a much easier tunnel target. I feel like using DS would almost be a requirement to run an invocation if they worked this way, and if you happened to get hooked once before you got a chance to do the invocation (ie. if you were the first chase of the game) it would basically become throwing to do it.
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That is even worse. The cost for these perks should just be the fact that you're forced to stand still in basement for a full minute
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You are not supposed to do invocations on your own. That's why they show your aura in the basement.
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two ppl in basement for 30 second is worse than one person in basement for 60 lol
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i make so many edits normally because I speed type with my sausage fingers and miss a lot...it's actually killing me
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That just further indicates how awful current Weaving Spiders is, since my suggestion, despite being mostly outclassed by Specialist, is still better than current WS.
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I don't think it is. Weaving Spiders is only usable at the very start of the game, which maximises its cost. The longer you wait, the less value it has, which isn't the case with the suggested rework. This makes WS barely applicable under any circumstance, since its value goes from negative to worse.
The rework dramatically cuts the cost but stabilises it so it's much more flexible.
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