Mangled should be paused on hook
More value for sloppy butcher and mangled addons its a pretty harmless change and helps against insta healing under hook.
Comments
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Any suggestions that directly or indirectly buff tunneling are terrible.
So literally any and all anti-heal perks and add-ons in the game is pro-tunneling? Do you support removing all anti-heal from the game then?
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Let's not buff things that encourage not chasing
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Tunneling is something that needs to stay in the game.
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Tunnelling will kill the game in the long run.
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This would work if the game wasn't in the position is was… Tunneling is too prevolate at this point
So at this point it's more on getting Tunneling under control first
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Tunneling existed since the start of DBD. I’m pretty sure the reason of mass frustration rn is poor technical release of TWD.
In every asymmetrical game with same genre tunneling is so common thing no one complain on.
Identity V (had peak of 80 000 people), so probably the second popular game on same genre, has the same system. No anticamp, no antitunnel, yet survivors can win even after hard tunneling. Because they have clear MMR and ranking system, and they never will face with killer they can't potentially dodge by skill.
DBD is only game, where people toxic towards probably the most evident way of gameplay for a win, e.g. genrush or else. Against good coordinated team tunnelling is something so casual, so doesn't impose threat even. For solo, that’s another story. Because as much as I’m getting tunneled myself, teammates instead of giving me free anticamp going around and freely pause this timer for killer. And no one doing gens. So nice.
9 years of the game, constant buff for anti slug- anti tunnel, and majority still can't dodge the simplest (because everyone knows tunneling for noobs, isn’t?) strategy in this game. Because they loop for 10 sec already and their only hope is ds. Not your every game against ghoul or nurse with blight to justify it yk
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Tunneling existed since the start of DBD. I’m pretty sure the reason of mass frustration rn is poor technical release of TWD.
Except the problems didn't start here, and DBD has had a survivor shortage for longer.
Not to mention the knock-on effect it has on general balance, which is also causing frustrations on the killer side.
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What exactly are you hinting at?
I don't see a direct answer to my position, only "it's still bad anyway".
I'm really curious to hear actual argument why one game that is often called the most blatant copy of DBD has much less tunneling problems, despite faster survival deaths and the lack of any kind of protection from tunneling in the base kit.
In DBD, people rely too much on base kit of the role. Both sides. That’s the actual problem for me. They expect game itself dealing with their issues
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And since when we have survivors shortage, when majority of players playing this role? Even looking at night light, proportion of survivors x4 higher than of killers.
No stats proving survivors unpopular role at all. Killers queue more likely having struggles cause of MMR issues or server dependency because they are still mainly hosting lobby (at least searching completely depends from them)
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The broken MMR would alleviate the problem, not exacerbate it. Killer queues should be faster if the MMR is too loose. Killers are still getting lengthy queues because there's not enough survivor players around.
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the longer a queue time, the more over-demanded the role is. killer has longer queue times by far because it is a role a disproportionate number of people play
this does fluctuate throughout the day depending on the region, but queues tend to be quicker for survivor most of the day for every region
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I think the biggest drawback to pausing things like sloppy and mangled is the stackable heal slowdown, as we have seen already, such as the healing and medkit nerf, PTB, in which heal slowdown builds were being tried out by killers. While something like this may not seem extreme, these small things do add up.
For example: as pointed above, it is easier to tunnel a survivor who has just come off hook and is unable to heal - also, survivors who are going to use time healing, simply will wait it out. You'll see more resilience users, and survivors will just get on generators rather than healing, with that 9% speed increase. Good survivors don't care if they are injured or not for set periods of time, so your gens will go faster.
So, while it doesn't seem like a big change, it will have consequences on both sides, and not necessarily good ones either.
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Can u provide exact proof that killers queue only depends on survivor numbers? And not something else?
It’s just an assumption. So better provide direct prove of survivors shortage and not indirect through killers. Survivors shortage is when ratio < 1:3
We don’t have this numbers. We don’t have direct statistic.
When players tries to upload numbers themselves, we see that ration is > 1:4
No direct numbers, false assumption. Saying that we have specific side shortage requires actual stats and numbers and less subjective topic than discussion of tunneling
Killer queues can be longer by the most primitive reason: 1 person’s mmr need somehow match every of 4 / total mmr sum. And because survivors pull higher, it requires more time to sort it out
This works in every asymmetrical game, not dbd only
The myth about the lack of survivors comes from a false cause-and-effect relationship of long queues of killers.So again- please, provide direct numbers. Killer queues is about killer queues. It’s 4 vs 1. Matchmaking for one person will run longer because it needs match 4 people and not 1.
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Can u prove shortage of survivors directly? In vacuum, without killers queue. Pure stats and then we gonna talk more objective. Now, it’s pure assumption
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We already have a broken mmr. Otz being 14k hours player was placed against the beginning survivor. Because, again, the system is made as poorly and unfairly as possible.
To expect that broken things do not make other things (such as queues) broken is the most naive thing I ever heard in my life. Especially related to game design. If something in game is broken, in 99% chance it’ll trigger chain of errors. The system still may run, but it would cause unexpected behaviour in completely different place.
A living person is not responsible for the queuing of players, it is an algorithm. So u shouldn't treat queue time as “problem always cause direct flaw”.
If the algorithm suffers from poorly written conditions and a flaw in the system, it is forced to spend more resources and time on processing information, and will still give it out in a distorted format if it's possible. So it's like a huge bug(gap), but in balancing system.
The algorithm not only need to analyse the MMR of each player, it needs to check that its average number is not higher than the killer's MMR as well. And then it also needs to check the location of the servers. And as soon as the server finds that one player out of 4 does not meet the requirements, it starts the selection from scratch. Therefore, the killer is often loaded into a lobby where 3-4 players are already present. What does the survs queue need? View the killer's MMR and common server. That's it. Survivors do not host MMR for lobbies, so they find people instantly.
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When players tries to upload numbers themselves, we see that ration is > 1:4
Hold on a sec, is this nightlight?
Of course the ratio is going to be 1:4 on Nightlight, since that only tallies completed matches. EVERY match has a 1:4 ratio, so any dataset compiled out of completed matches will have an exact 1:4 ratio.
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… the games were played. And as u can see, players upload their competed games on survivors more frequently. Like x 5.7 times even. It's not simple 1:4 ratio. It's 1:5 ratio. If follows your logic, how this possible? How additional +1 to ratio were able to complete the match?
So people upload completed matches on survivor based on demand. It's not even some required uploads, people upload to NL for tracking their games. And if more games on survivors are tracked, and it's more popular, how then we have shortage of players?
I’m still asking for direct numbers and not killer queue time. Where? I tried to find myself, met with some vague considerations of 20/80 of killed/survivor proportion that was provided by dev but didn't find any direct citations. That’s why I don’t claim survivors are in in abundance. I consider them enough. And to really prove their lack, it is necessary to show proofs
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?????? The nightlight stats are only from complete uploaded games, of course the ratio is going to be 4:1 in those stats.
Anecdotally, the high queue time side on that website corresponds with the queue bonus being on the short-queue side, which BHVR have explicitly said goes to the role with not-enough people queueing.
Nightlight is a decent source for stats but what you're using it for is just blatantly a misuse of stats
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Can I ask where did you get it?
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Uk that from game stats it will also show 1:4 ratio of played games, because all games = queued match? And unplayed match simply can’t be recorded?
I’m not telling nightlight shows actual picture. It also ignores matches when killer or survivor who uploaded game dced. I’m hinting that proportion of survivors players not only equal, but even over that planned ratio. 1:5~1:6. It’s even more, so how it potentially happens if we have shortage of players? If it was actual shortage, then it was 1:4 ration even on nightlight then.
BHVR does not provide server stats while running. The only way to look at this was server made by cheater and it was closed long time ago.
The only way to "estimate" this is to provide the share of the game already uploaded and see if it is equal or not. This is not abuse, this is an attempt to respond to a person who does not provide anything at all except indirect time on queues for a completely different role. You yourself provided indirect statistics in the form of a queue for a different role, completely ignoring that MMR also affects the run time of the queue selection, how else I should respond except providing same indirect stats?Queue bonus, as discussed long ago on this forum, does not correspond to reality in principle. Many players have noticed that killers have not been given adequate bonuses for encouragement lately, even when survivors encounter difficulties on servers (as was the case a few days after the streetwise bug situation, and I personally timed queues for survivors lasting 5-10 minutes).
Again. Our entire dialogue with other person generally began with a discussion of tunneling. Like “it’s killing the game”. I asked how it’s killing, while in similar game situation is even “worse”, but queue time better in DBD. He ignored and pointed on survovor shortage. I asked direct proofs, because in every assymetrical game that was barely balanced queue time was always longer than for 4 people because of matchmaking system. This person again, ignored and insisted “but killer time is longer”. No one responds on my MMR influence on queue here, themselves provides indirect stats that has other influences (like same MMR), and now blame me in “misuse” statistic completely missing my point.
Are we really want to discuss such theme in a such way? Better either stop it, or provide direct stats to prove point because u can forever manipulate on something that hidden from publicity. No one here is dev that can say directly explain ration of players depends on their role.
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Ah, so the data is tallying survivors per player but killers per game. So it's not even measuring the survivor:killer ratio at all.
But furthermore, it confuses how it is that they tally this. Where are they getting the extra survivors from? Because judging by the game count, they're not in the queue.
Them existing doesn't fix the problem if they're not queuing.
while in similar game situation is even “worse”, but queue time better in DBD.
Interesting bit here is that you're making the opposite point to what you're trying to say. If the queue times are better in DBD than they are in other games where tunnelling is worse, that's supporting my argument that tunnelling is helping to kill DBD. If games with more tunnelling have worse queue times, then it suggests that DBD's queue times would be worse with more tunnelling, too.
You specifically pointed out Identity V as having a bad tunnel problem, and then you ask a friend which is longer in that game: Survivor queue or killer queue. That friend says the killer queue is longer.
Which is the same problem as DBD.
No one responds on my MMR influence on queue here
What is your proof that MMR is the factor here? Because AFAIK, BHVR hasn't specified that this is how their matchmaking works, and additionally, this would be a more universal problem, even when survivor population spikes. You're basically suggesting that the MMR system operates at a snail's pace in all circumstances, which would actually require it to slow survivor queues, too.
Furthermore, BHVR themselves, who probably have more direct access to these kinds of figures, have put in the BP incentives to swing the queue timers, which they wouldn't see a need to if player shortages weren't the problem.
Not to mention the quitting epidemic, which is like a big neon sign that says 'WE DON'T WANNA PLAY ANYMORE'.
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Dead By Queue Dot Com
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yall need to get on topic this is out of hand ya geeks
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Interesting bit here is that you're making the opposite point to what you're trying to say. If the queue times are better in DBD
*than in DBD. Typo mistake that can’t be edited since edit on forum is bugged. If u read again, u clearly can see I didn’t ask my friend compare queue times in DBD with Iden, I asked about survivors and hunters difference in game he is playing. He explained why it’s longer, and that this is common for every assymetrical game.
Furthermore, BHVR themselves, who probably have more direct access to these kinds of figures, have put in the BP incentives to swing the queue timers, which they wouldn't see a need to if player shortages weren't the problem.
I commented about queue bonus above to other person. U both repeat same things. Why repeat same arguments that was answered before? Can u check whole thread?
What is your proof that MMR is the factor here? Because AFAIK, BHVR hasn't specified that this is how their matchmaking works
Do u know what matchmaking means? It’s a way how the game define with who exactly u will be queued up. BHVR shouldn’t specify it. It means that being able to match 4 people at the same time is harder than being matchmaked with one person only. And in BHVR since the start killer was hosting lobby (they changed server dependency from it, but didn’t change other factors), it still works as it is. Because it increase performance, otherwise both survivors and killers waited extremely a lot (as well in case of survivors shortage, that’s why I don’t find your argument viable) .And BHVR told before, that the way how u change your MMR on survivor is depends on against what killer with what kind of MMR u escaped/died. If u died against stronger player, u’ll lose less MMR than against weaker one. Because they decided group escapes shouldn’t be considered over personal ones. So your MMR is basically:
killer vs lobby
survivor vs killer
So matchmaking system isn’t considered for survivors to analyse their teammates. And it works both for matchmaking itself and evaluating of your MMR. Part of this was covered in video I linked and u probably ignored.
tunnel problem
It’s basically starts irritates when person u talk with don’t read your text even. Situation of tunneling even “worse” (big quotes marks were always here for this reason ) cause in Identity V they don’t have any “anti tunnel”. But their attitude towards tunneling is tolerable. Because game were balanced around it, cause devs understand people won’t stop tunnel in assymetrical games and better strategy is balance game around 3vs1. Whole community even doesn’t consider tunneling as issue even. Because many hunters(killers) have power dependancy on tunneling, slugging, camping. As well as killers in DBD, like trapper and leatherface being good for camping, twins and oni for slugging, onryo and pyramid head for tunnelling.
So it shows tunneling can be balaced in a way it doesn’t bother community and DBD have other core issues in their mechanics. But “out of sight out of min mindset focus on tunneling or genrush as balancing system problems.
U said yourself tunnelling “killing this game”, yet somehow, we have 2times less agressive tunneling in DBD itself after massive changes after 9 years and even more online. If u having decisive strike, otr, kindred, burden, base kit 10 sec endurance, no hook grabs, heal meta and still somehow complaining on tunneling, probably u just except game doing everything instead of you.
Whole my post was about the game in absolute same genre have 0 issues with tunneling nor queue times. And that dbd itself rn have zero issues with it. U just messed up my text, and reverted how u wish to see it. And that’s just upsetting me, seeing such inconstructive and messed up way of debating. Quit
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Yeah kill the game as in people playing killers that aren't the top 10. It's a pvp A-symm it's a necessary evil for the game.
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You're welcome to back those words up by playing against survivors (across several matches) that know how to do the objective while you play a B or C tier killer without tunneling. I'll tell you if the survivors know how to do the objective and have some semblence of looping you won't be winning without having to apply certain strategies or without the survivors making massive mistakes.
Because tell me how good of a state would the game be in if you suddenly made tunneling super time ineffecient. What about the 25+ killers in the roster that cant really deal with map pressure as they have no mobility or they have only a decent antiloop power? You leave the game in a worse state as you start to see even more Ghoul, Blight and Nurse as they actually have map pressure and are some of the easiest to consistently play once learned.-3 -
If u read again, u clearly can see I didn’t ask my friend compare queue times in DBD with Iden, I asked about survivors and hunters difference in game he is playing.
And the answer he gave you is that they also have longer killer queues.
He explained why it’s longer, and that this is common for every assymetrical game.
Actually, his explanation makes no sense. If there's more survivors playing, then that would make matchmaking easier, and thus faster. Queues don't get slower if you have more people to match with.
Do u know what matchmaking means? It’s a way how the game define with who exactly u will be queued up. BHVR shouldn’t specify it. It means that being able to match 4 people at the same time is harder than being matchmaked with one person only. And in BHVR since the start killer was hosting lobby (they changed server dependency from it, but didn’t change other factors), it still works as it is. Because it increase performance, otherwise both survivors and killers waited extremely a lot (as well in case of survivors shortage, that’s why I don’t find your argument viable) .And BHVR told before, that the way how u change your MMR on survivor is depends on against what killer with what kind of MMR u escaped/died. If u died against stronger player, u’ll lose less MMR than against weaker one. Because they decided group escapes shouldn’t be considered over personal ones. So your MMR is basically:
killer vs lobby
survivor vs killer
So matchmaking system isn’t considered for survivors to analyse their teammates. And it works both for matchmaking itself and evaluating of your MMR. Part of this was covered in video I linked and u probably ignored.
Yes, this is about how Match-making RATING works, but not about how the matchmaking system itself works.
It is your argument that the matchmaking system itself is doing the following:
The algorithm not only need to analyse the MMR of each player, it needs to check that its average number is not higher than the killer's MMR as well. And then it also needs to check the location of the servers. And as soon as the server finds that one player out of 4 does not meet the requirements, it starts the selection from scratch.
Where is your proof for this?
Because this is the crux of your argument, but this is what's unsubstantiated. Additionally…
What does the survs queue need? View the killer's MMR and common server. That's it. Survivors do not host MMR for lobbies, so they find people instantly.
This doesn't fix it. Survivors aren't on a separate matchmaking system, they're organised by the same one. So if the matchmaking system itself is the cause of the delays, survivors would be feeling it too.
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Where is your proof for this?Matchmaking rating directly influence on matchmaking itself.
About friend —, for hunter it takes 1-2 minutes. For survivors around 5 minutes (he missed my question at at all lol), and he explained it by survivor abundance. But this is considering ranking system.
In quick matches, situations suddenly different and both roles takes less than minute two. So it just shows MMR influence in queue time along with proportion of players on roles. And this game doesn't dying because one role is more preferable. As well as dbd.
So, I checked. It doesn't show that it starts from scratch, but if one survivor doesn't really suits requirement, it starts again. And when killer can’t find survivor of same MMR, it checks another pull (like if u are in ”gold” killer, system looks for “silver” pull and check whole pull to match the closest one) .
Survivor doesn't need to check MMR of their teammate. It's more simple for the system to matchmake killer with each survivor, than doing survivors vs killer vs every teammate.
Technically killers still host of lobbies, at least in MMR term. And that’s why when system works overall bad and unreliable, it firstly affects killer queue time. That’s why considering killer queue time to prove survivor shortage isn’t that good because we have other factor that affects them as well.
It was in video I linked. This person gathered info from devs, and some people who were using not good methods for looking on game back end. He also asked bhvr to get his personal stats and u can do it as well to gather your own mmr. He has two videos about MMR. Anyway, this theme start going to be so off topic. We just went from tunneling discussion to straight mmr.
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I had a look at the Nightlight documentation and it seems the people who upload screenshots are Not included in the stats. A disproportionate number of survivor stats would therefore mean a disproportionate of killers uploading stats from their games. Looks like Nightlight supports the idea that there are more dedicated killer players than survivors right now
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So, I checked. It doesn't show that it starts from scratch, but if one survivor doesn't really suits requirement, it starts again. And when killer can’t find survivor of same MMR, it checks another pull (like if u are in ”gold” killer, system looks for “silver” pull and check whole pull to match the closest one) .
Okay, but…
Either you are arguing that the matchmaking is casting a very wide net, in which case matchmaking is currently proceeding faster than intended, which would make the queue discrepancy smaller than it should be, indicating a greater shortage of survivors…
Or
You are arguing that the matchmaking process is slow and cumbersome because it constantly needs to reboot, in which case it is very slow at processing the available survivors, which should be making survivor queues slower too, since they're being processed at a slower rate.
There's an argument to be made that the former is indeed in play, but that's running counter to your argument that MMR is the reason killer queues are slow, since the widened matchmaking would specifically make it easier and quicker to compile matches for killers, not slower.
Survivor doesn't need to check MMR of their teammate. It's more simple for the system to matchmake killer with each survivor, than doing survivors vs killer vs every teammate.
But these are not different systems. This is one system. Matchmaking compiles a match and invites a survivor in accordance to those criteria. There's no separate 'survivor matchmaking' that just flings survivors into random lobbies that a 'killer matchmaker' is trying to curate.
They're under one system. Every lobby has one matchmaking system. So if the problem was there, both sides would be affected.
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So, actually we don’t have even indirect stats that can define that some side suffers from “shortage”?
Personally I always believed that we have enough people for both roles. For some really specific period of time just people prefer to stick to specific role. Like evening for survivors cause of sfws and early day for killers when it’s not sweatyThe only time when we actually don’t have enough people it’s when we have big events or something weird happens in fandom, like killer side masquarede with poor balance and farming teammates or old MFT/post TWD update
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It won't affect both sides in terms of queue times. Because again. Survivor check only MMR of the killer before join. Killer checks whole lobby. 4 vs 1. I’m honestly tired repeat same thing that was being ignored
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I'm not ignoring what you're saying.
I'm refuting it.
You're ignoring what I am saying.
To quote:
Matchmaking compiles a match and invites a survivor in accordance to those criteria. There's no separate 'survivor matchmaking' that just flings survivors into random lobbies that a 'killer matchmaker' is trying to curate.
They're under one system. Every lobby has one matchmaking system.
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Longer killer queues only started with the release of kaneki. Before him I'd get 1s queues. Now it's more like fifteen seconds but whatever.
Of course before 6.10 survivor queues could be 15 minutes or more in the evening. That's literally the only reason I even started playing killer.
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No one denies here that we have same matchmaking system for every lobby. But the way how it affects role is different. For killer to find lobby it needs to match 4 people MMR. Like, one system check for people before letting u be matchmade.
For survivor it needs to check only Killer MMR - cause as soon it matches, it means your teammates probably checked it as well. Matchmaking system doesn’t check teammates for survivor side How it supposed toThe system one, but it treats lobbies personally. Before going as survivor u can invite friends. U already create party. And after “start”, only one party need to match another lobby of the killer. So it can be fast, if it full of 4 people.
If u alone u still created a party, that looks for killer to match. As soon as it matches, u joined. U filtered one person only , because system relies on that from other side, other 3 was already filtered by killer.
And that’s why u can have games where no survivors nor killer matches your expectation of MMR. One flaw from your client side, and whole lobby u joined doesn’t fit your MMR braces because it checked only killers one. Or it can be fine and only you doesn’t match Killer braces. Or it can be only one-two teammate.. Or killer don’t have anyone to match his MMR and whole lobby is random set up.
If it was “same”, then when system had a flaw, it affected all 4 survivors in the same way by MRR braces.-1 -
Run leverage then.
Forcing longer heals just because a survivor is unable to heal or do anything for that matter does not warrant a buff to mangled like that. It was nerfed last year to be more temporary, this would just defeat the whole purpose of the nerf.
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Either you are arguing that the matchmaking is casting a very wide net, in which case matchmaking is currently proceeding faster than intended, which would make the queue discrepancy smaller than it should be, indicating a greater shortage of survivors…
Or
You are arguing that the matchmaking process is slow and cumbersome because it constantly needs to reboot, in which case it is very slow at processing the available survivors, which should be making survivor queues slower too, since they're being processed at a slower rate.
I’m telling MMR system is not perfect and that why it's another reason (not the only one) of slower queue times. And that's why killers queue to “prove” survivors shortage is bad idea. More likely we have issue of having enough ratio for same MMR pull for killer/survivors. And not because of skill issue, but because killer still hosts MMR rating dependency, ignoring teamwork and other factors.
But definitely we have enough players. If u want to provide proof that survivors only (and not killers) are massively quitting this game, just find the way to prove it directly. Because personally for me my friends from both roles are quitting, and by stats we don’t have actual picture.
When my queue on killers took seconds after TWD release while I was waiting 10 mins for survivors, I don’t rely on queue bonus to showing the problem.
So better just provide direct stats. While we don’t have them, yeah… That's why it's meaningless to discuss.
If switching from off topic. I’m actually against changes of mangled status OP proposed, but I also can’t agree that tunnelling killing this game or we have shortage of the survivors. For tunneling u have skill and pretty enough anti tunnel perks, accept the fact that in every asymmetrical game people will strive to 3 vs 1 and that’s all. Killer somehow didn't quit the game after many changes, maybe because it wasn’t that bad? As well as for survivors. But going further… basically means motivation to play S/A tier killer only and won’t fix issues of low solo survivors escape rate. If someone starts to being over dramatic about gen rushers or tunnelers I genuinely advise them to switch to opposite side and play for few months without any hint of gen or hook efficiency. And actually commit to sweaty gameplay
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Disagree. Maybe you just don't play survivor, but if you ever experience this yourself, sloppy butcher REFRESHES on the hit that downs you. So then you'll still have quite a bit of time with the debuffs while on hook, and even after being unhooked. They don't need to pause on hook because that would be too oppressive.
If you really dislike survivors healing under hook, you could run gift of pain, or leverage, or proxy camp that hook, or run back to hook like everyone else and their mother does.
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And where's the videos of this happening? Cause I can critique what survivors could have done better 100%.
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Yeah I have and once again I could point out major screw ups on the survivors because they just didn't play smart vs a myers.
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So I'm wondering what you think could possibly be causing this to happen if it's not far too many people wanting to play killer (and far too few wanting to play survivor)
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Many post above here from me was about that since killers still hosts lobbies in terms of MMR system, they always tends to have searches higher time.
Especially when as soon u open website u use as reliable sourse it looks like this most of the time
And when u go to their social media, their last post doesn’t even hint on this problem
And survivors also can get higher queue time. And this website as unreliable as nightlight, because they also unofficial and has limited data :/
U can’t just slap queue time of completely other role in the game, ignore matchmaking system and server population to out loud point on survivors shortage. So again, provide either direct numbers or just accept that that’s u can't simply prove it
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I’m just curious why u were extremely sceptical about nightllight and their “bias”, but your source is completely fine and sincerely believe it always shows a true picture of the situation
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I thought it would be obvious from reading my posts but I guess I wasn't clear enough. Sure, I'll explain
I misread the post about Nightlight and thought you were saying that was a nearly exact 1:4 ratio of killers to survivors. I assumed this was the case because I know Nightlight takes information from all 5 players in their stats, and so I assumed those stats reflected every player in every game in their database. Obviously in every game, there are 4 survivors and 1 killer. If those stats were from every player in every game, it would be useless as a measure of anything because the data would be artificially cropped - the sample would intentionally be cut down in a way so that the number of players queueing from either side would be hidden and we'd only get the total number of end-game results.
Once you pointed out that the proportion of each role was not in that ratio, I changed my mind. By the time I wrote this post:
… I was willing to consider Nightlight as a potentially useful source. Let me repeat that: I am willing to consider Nightlight a useful source in the discussion on player-count balance, and I was willing to consider the idea it might have proved my initial assertion wrong (I just think it doesn't prove it wrong)
Maybe they had information that other sources didn't? I did some investigating to be sure. That's when I discovered the information about how Nightlight excludes killer-uploaded games in its killer-pick-rate stats that you pulled from in your argument. Once I learned that, it started to fit with what I was saying. Whenever a killer uploads a game, the number of survivors counted increases, but the number of killers doesn't, so it actually changes the sampling to increase the proportion towards survivor. When a survivor uploads a game, it does count the killer.
I did some math, and depending on if the uploader is counted for survivor games, it looks like 30% (if they are) or 40% (if they're not) of games are uploaded by killer - much higher than the 20% you would expect if upload rates matched with the required player rates per role.
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I find both nightlight and dead by queue really subjective sources. Because data limited from both sides and sources are partially covered. Dead by Queue is monitored by one person and I didn’t find any explanation on his social media why exactly his project should be considered reliable. Even how he did this.
If we want to get to know actual numbers of survs population, we have to ask devs about it. Because queue time have different reasons to be higher.
My personal theory is that cause of higher killrate we have more killers with higher MMR than survivors. And that MMR considers killer vs one person relationship only. So it's genuinely harder to find 4 people match all requirements. English isn’t my native language to present point properly, I can just ask silly gpt to help:
This just looks like DBD matches. This explanation just fit so perfectly I can’t stop thinking about it.
So survivors have wider pull for choices, while killers on top of their MMR faces with issues of high queue times and facing same teams even (one person, oecrophy, showed me this and she has really high killrate) . And being on top even not that hard for killer now.Why I’m thinking like that? When I played in sfw team where we had really wide spread of MMR once, we waited probably longest survivor queues in my life. And when I’m usually playing killer and face with unexpectedly long waiting, after matching I can be sure - my opponents won’t match my cap overall. Either too good for me, or too bad. When matches fast, It’s either night when few people play killer, or they perfectly match my skill level and we have balanced game that usually leads to tie/3k.
So, how to fix this…?
I don't know how exactly to revise the balance of the game and MMR because I’m just a player first of all, but for me decisions are to buff solo teams by info as much as possible + review the MMR criteria. Killers definitely need to have different rating , more strict and harder to achieve, while for survivors it needs to be made visible so they can see that adequate teamwork is rewarded by the game. Not hidden swf mark. Changing the meta in the form of perks and killers should happen after changing the core system.
Like since what actual my first post started, tunneling not the issue of people quitting, nor the reason of survivor shortage specifically. That's speculations and “I see this first, so it may be that main reason of every problem” mindset.
Killers tunnel because it's assymetrycal genre and we can’t change it. We can try to remove tunnelling at all, but other games faced with detrimental consequences of such move:
And that’s definitely not the reason of messed up queue times. I’m pretty sure even BHVR understand this.
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You misunderstand - unofficial data can be useful to support ideas. I just didn't understand how the data was cropped
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Oh, ok, my bad then.
Anyway, idk how this discussion switches to such side. It was about tunneling first, but other person started to use that argument “no one wants to play because of it”, meh.
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The devs have said that a disproportionate number of people wanting to play role a leads to long queue times for role a and that's why they put queue incentives on role b - to get people yo switch.
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But do this incentives work as intended? I remember many people complaint on this forum that it was no incentives when it was needed and we actually had underbalance on one side. Or it’s too low.
I remember for some reason we had incentives for killers when ghoul chapter was released, even when their queues were under extremely high load out.
Or twd chapter. Majority played survivors, yet they didn't have anything for killers when it was needed. Few people wanted to play during chase bug and last stand/streetwise/blood rush epidemia.
They don’t remove incentives when everything is fine either
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