http://dbd.game/killswitch
BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong.
Comments
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If the correct call in all scenarios really is to leave the person on the ground for the full 90 seconds so they can recover, isn't that still perfectly serviceable for the killer?
It's not as though you're standing over them waiting for the self pickup, you're presumably going and getting in another chase, and presumably attempting to get a second down. 90 seconds is long enough that you could realistically end that chase and hook that second down, at which point you can really do damage to the team's efficiency.
You're portraying a scenario where you effectively get to be in a 3v1 for 90 seconds and saying that doesn't give you meaningful pressure.
Unless the argument is more centred on them crawling to a teammate, in which case I'd personally say the idea is fine but there should be a penalty to recovery speed while crawling. Make them put a little more time into being ready to be picked up.
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I must say that this has already gone well beyond my original point. I don't even necessarily disagree with the notion that the changes are too heavy-handed. I just think the idea that BHVR "doesn't play killer" is borderline infantile.
Maybe, but that's not really the point being made.
The point really is that BHVR doesn't care at all about the killer experience. And this patch is only another example of this.
I also disagree with the use of the word 'handholding', cause that's not what is happening. The survivors are still a man down. That's still a massive detriment. Handholding would imply they're given free wins because someone got tunnelled, which is absurd.
Well, you are saying it yourself. They are losing, and they get helped. They come back not from playing well, not from being smart, and not from having a good game sense, but because the game itself compensates them for losing with base mechanics. That's the definition of hand-holding.
And to be honest, even if I don't think that kind of mechanic is good for any PvP game, I won't care as much if it wasn't because the way it hand-holds survivors is by punishing even Killers that are playing well. That's it.
I want to emphasise that I'm on the fence on the slugging mechanics. I see your argument, but at the same time I wonder how much this actually happens. Which why I say to wait and see how this situation develops. It may need adjustments, it may not.
Well, I say to you what I said in another post: I don't need to get a punch in the guts to know how it's going to play out and that it will hurt. The moment survivors start to pick up that now there is no need to go get up anybody, it will become the standard.
But alright, let's see what happens in the future.
Regarding Killer Instict, I still disagree. Legion getting a frenzy down is rather rare to begin with in my experience, so I'm not sure how this changes anything.
It will make it even rarer. That was my point.
All this does is prevent Legion from stabbing the unhooker, and immediately knowing where the unhooked survivor is, and virtually ignore anti-tunnelling perks on top of that.
Even if you are right and a Legion uses it to get to the recently unhooked survivor, there are other things preventing him from hooking that survivor, starting with 30 seconds of haste, free Endurance, and stealth, ending with the gen blocking if the survivor is on the last hook.
Instead, it will allow him to get a frenzy hit and go for the next survivor, not preventing him from getting a chance to use his power.
But again, the easy solution to that is to reduce the number of hits needed to activate it.
Additionally, an unhooked survivor has just about every advantage over the killer for that period. Unless the killer sees the unhook itself happening, they don't even know if it happened. I think your main argument is that the killer is still 'punished' in what I'll call a 'collossal survivor mistake scenario.' In which an unhooked survivor, despite all the mechanics in place to prevent it from happening, still got themselves found by the killer twice, or even thrice in a row, leading to their death.
Depends on what you are referring to here. In general, these mechanics punish killers in multiple ways even if they are not tunneling at all.
Also, in your scenario, it doesn't even need to be "colossal". If that survivor is the last hooked survivor, is on death hook, and walks to the killer minutes after he was hooked, the killer was not tunneling him, but if he punishes the survivor for his mistake, he gets punished back.
This applies to a lot of things and even specifically affects a lot of killers in the roster. For example:
- A survivor getting caught multiple times in bear traps.
- A survivor not managing his Condemn appropriately.
- A survivor not getting off a reverse trap.
- A long etc.
So, this punishes killers in many ways and puts them in many lose / lose situations, whether they tunnel or not. That's why this is not an "anti-tunneling" system, this is just hand-holding.
Almost all of your concerns about 'handholding' seem to stem from this collosal mistake scenario. Which, mind you, I don't even think is an unreasonable scenario, albeit a rare one.
Again, I don't know what you mean with the "collosal mistake scenario", but this system punishes killers in a lot of different scenarios that are pretty common.
Like, for example, the unhooked survivor weaponizing his free Endurance, something that they can still do (easier than before, thanks to having no collision) and something that you can't punish anymore, or the one punished is you.
Thing is, that 25% only comes into effect if there's a kill before 6 hooks (hook events? there's a difference here and im not sure which applies currently). If a killer is already at 1 gen left, and they manage to trigger the 25%, they realistically weren't winning that game anyway, eh? Like, I understand that it feels rather heavy-handed, and that it eliminates an opportunity for a comeback, but were you really coming back from 1 gen left? Furthermore, even if the gens are done, that game still isn't over. You might still get another kill. Multiple if you're lucky.
Maybe I was not getting a comeback with 1 gen left and 3 survivors still alive after removing one from the match, no. The thing is, with the new changes, that "maybe" becomes an "absolutely not". Also, even if it is at 2 or 3 gens, this still drastically reduces the opportunity for a comeback just because survivors need to be compensated for not being good enough to maintain their main advantage over the killer (being 4 against 1).
The funny thing is there are a lot of ways to do this without punishing the killer for doing good, but they decided to go this way. For example, why not escalate the progression penalty / bonus depending on how many survivors are alive and gens are left? That would be a good system that doesn't put the killer at such a disadvantage.
Not 25%, tho. As I showed in the capture, no matter how you look at it, it's too much unless they start nerfing any other progression bonus source.
Personally, I'd have gone with the first kill being allowed at 5 hooks, rather than 6. Maybe even 4? We'd have to experiment. I agree 6 is a lot, when my average match is around 9-10 hooks total.
If we have to use this system no matter what, I say 4. Personally, I would prefer it either gone or changed for something fairer and not as hand-holding, as I already said.
Regarding the loss of collision, I was under the impression this also prevented hitting, which doesn't make sense in hindsight. Aggressive protection hits from the saved survivor are an issue, yes. Though I'd go for making protection hits a conspicious action, thereby cancelling out the Endurance.
I like it, it could be an option.
Except this is just slugging. Smart or not, it's boring as hell for the affected survivor, which is precisely what we want to avoid.
I thought what we wanted to prevent was killers purposefully leaving survivors on the ground for the 4 minutes the bleed-out takes. This doesn't change that (in fact, what prevents the killer from doing that in the PTB now? Just wait on top of the survivor to down him again and again till bleedout?), just change the blocking gens punishment to only really punish tunnelers.
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Even with these current changes, a strong point of contention is that Survivor is being hand-held because they already have mechanics that make teamwork more functional (like the HUD) and that they have basekit mechanics that make the strongest Killer comebacks somewhat less viable though not enough to be strong counters. Not to get ina p*ssing contest over that, just saying that both sides are equally criticized. The narrative will always be SWF/gen-rushing vs camping/tunneling/slugging.
Who is even saying that? Because first, nobody is saying survivors are hand-held by the game "because of the HUD", but because those base mechanics grant a low-effort advantage to survivors and / or save them from their mistakes while punishing killers. And that's a reality.
Second, I had never seen a single killer main that really knew the game, never, complaining about the "strongest Killers" not being able to make a comeback. In fact, those mechanics mainly affecting the weaker low-tier, low-mobility killers while the top-tier ones like Blight or Nurse are practically unaffected is one of the main complaints the killer community has about all the base kit mechanics BHVR has implemented.
That's another problem the survivor side has: Not understanding that not everybody plays top-tier killers. Not all of us are Blight, Nurse, or Ghoul mains, and in fact those killers are a small percent of the pick rate.
And you are right, the narrative is always "SWF/gen-rushing vs Camping/Tunneling/Slugging". And casually, up to this point, BHVR has only implemented base mechanics to "solve" those things (in the worst way possible most of the time, with this last patch as the perfect example) that affect survivors. But of course, if we point out this fact, it is just us feeling "othered" without reason.
Likewise, communcation is one of those self-inflicted problems. It's an element of every PVP game ever and not only does DBD have an aggressive chat filter, there are a number of options to silence all communication with other players entirely. Though I will give you that—Killers are more likely to get salt.
I agree that for a game rated M / +17, the amount of censorship the chat has is laughable, and that communication is super important in a PvP game, especially in a game like DbD that requires good coordination sometimes. But yet again, what good does a chat system that can only be used before or after the match do?
I had been asking for years now for BHVR to implement at least a quickchat function in the game for survivors so they can communicate and coordinate. But because I'm a killer main, my feedback was completely ignored (joking).
The reality, in my experience, is that even when both sides are facing similar situations, Killer players are usually the most likely to take it personally. I've never seen Survivors do it to the same degree. For me, it has a lot less to do with "us vs. them" and is more of a psychological thing. It has me wondering what the draw is to each role.
Depends on what situations you are referring to and what you mean by "take it personally". But I agree, this has nothing to do with "us vs. them", it's just entitled people not even understanding the game they are playing and complaining about it under their subjective view. And those are on both sides of the community.
It just happens that, in my experience, most of them are survivors.
Listen, I get that you wanna whip it out and slap it on the table, but that's a diversion tactic. It's no secret that DBD is a game of investment—whichever role you feel the most invested in is where your bias lies. For me, that's Survivor. For you, it might be Killer (I'm not going to assume that however). No amount of experience in either role is likely to change that. On top of that, if I had 5k hours on Killer and a 90% KR, would that make my opinion more valid? What if I had 100 hours and a 50% KR? It means nothing.
"[…] if I had 5k hours on Killer and a 90% KR, would that make my opinion more valid?"
Not your "opinion", but your claims? Yes, especially if you are talking about the game balance or talking about the killer experience as a survivor main, and vice versa.
Just as I said earlier, and you can like it or not, most of those complaints come from people that don't understand the full game. And to understand a game like DbD, you have to at least play as both sides long enough and well enough. For example, one time a killer complained about gen rushing when it was one of the most relaxed and chill matches I had ever played as survivor. Obviously, that killer didn't know better and has not experienced a match ending in less than 6 minutes like I and many others have.
And "long enough" is not 3 thousand hours, as some people claim. With a couple of weeks of doing well, you will get to experience the "real" game, and you will start to see a lot of things people complain about that are discarded because "I had played 5 minutes as one side and X happened, so shut up because your side is OP".
Post edited by Batusalen on0 -
This has never seemed more true
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I already explained multiple times why slugging was an effective way of applying pressure in comparison to hooking and why, with the new changes, it not only is not an effective alternative anymore, but in some situations you can't hook either. Not going to repeat myself.
But I will say, that slugging now grants you about 20 to 30 seconds more of the same pressure that hooking the survivor will give you… if the hook slowly moved closer to the nearest survivor repairing a gen and granted the survivor a free Deliverance for the rest of the match if hooked for 65 seconds total.
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So it is the crawling recovery more than the Unbreakable analogue?
I'm trying to understand your position, that's all. You make more of a deal of the Unbreakable so I assumed that was more central to your point, but if it's the crawling recovery that'd change my response.
Like I said, because killers can still easily slug and gain value with the Unbreakable change, I only think the crawling recovery needs to be slower than stationary recovery for this to be completely fine. That way, survivors can crawl towards a teammate on a gen, but they'd still have to sit there and recover/have that person invest time to pick them up again, preserving the pressure.
That, or potentially having crawling recovery stop working over a certain threshold, but that's probably overcomplicating it.2 -
It's both, but the main issue is being able to move while recovering. Getting a free Unbreakable for the rest of the match just make the strategy more beneficial as then they don't even need to crawl to anybody anymore when they get it.
Like I said, I already explained it.
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Well, the problem there is that the Unbreakable analogue doesn't actually affect this scenario at all because of how long it takes.
If they're actually crawling to a teammate on gens, and that's fast enough to actually be worth doing over the teammate meeting them halfway, they're not building the Resolve bar. That's why the Unbreakable part isn't a problem- it takes so long that the killer easily wins out on time investment if it's ever actually used.
(Outside of perks, anyway, I've mentioned in other posts that some perks interact with this system in a suspect way.)Crawling while recovering is a valuable change because it puts agency back in survivor's hands when they're slugged. The concern is if they can mitigate pressure too much with it, and as it is on the PTB…. ehhh… there's a chance big enough to be worth talking about, but it's not guaranteed. It really depends on a lot of factors, the biggest obviously being "how far away is their teammate". Far enough and the killer's still winning out easily, close enough and the recovery part barely matters.
That's why I think the best solution is just to slow down recovery speed while crawling. It shifts the time investment enough that it's almost certainly going to be the better call to just go pick up your teammate, but survivors still have some options and decisions to make while they're on the ground.
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Again, all your arguments can be answered with: Those 90 seconds are total time in dying state for the whole match.
So, if their teammate is "far away", they either get the free Unbreakable and next time it would not even matter, or his teammate will finish the gen and just pick him up instantly midway while he builds up 60 of the 90 seconds. Meaning, next time he gets downed and slugged, he will only have to spend 30 seconds on the ground, and he will be able to pick himself up the rest of the match.
So, no. It's not ok. They need to make the timer reset every time the survivor gets out of the dying state, and they need to revert the recovery while moving. This way, we prevent hard 4 minutes slugging while allowing the killer to still use it as a pressure method, just as they can do now.
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At that point, doesn't it imply that the killer is slugging them extensively multiple times?
The system is supposed to make that weaker, that's the whole point.
Though, in your scenario they're still on the ground for a minute before being picked up, that's a long time to keep a survivor out of the action.
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Wasn't the point preventing slugging survivors till they bleed out while still allowing killers to use short slugging as a way to pressure survivors? Because that's not what the current system is doing, for the reasons already mentioned.
And I think you have forgotten that thanks to the anti-tunneling, there are survivors that can't be hooked if you don't want to get punished. So, your only option is to slug that survivor every time he crosses paths with you.
Or it would be, if it wasn't because again, you won't generate almost any pressure and will only grant him a free Unbreakable for the rest of the match. Do you start to see the full picture now? How it's just not only one thing, but that one problem gets bigger with the next problem?
This whole patch is a mess.
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I would argue the point is more to prevent excessive slugging in general, which definitely includes forced bleedouts but also includes killers not hooking until everyone's on the ground and just, broadly, any time a survivor's left on the ground for multiple minutes at a time.
That's a bit more consistent with what they did, where you can easily slug to avoid a flashlight/pallet save and you're only given a cap on slugging value beyond that instead of it being removed outright.I'm a little confused by your second paragraph, though. If you slug a survivor because they were the last one on the hook, don't you then go on and chase + hook someone else…? At that point, the "mark" on the last-hooked survivor shifts, and the person who was on the ground can now be hooked.
I do see the full picture, which is that someone on the ground for 90 seconds absolutely generates very meaningful pressure, and the basekit Tenacity part could use tweaking to make sure it doesn't undo that.
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I'm a little confused by your second paragraph, though. If you slug a survivor because they were the last one on the hook, don't you then go on and chase + hook someone else…?
Unless that "marked" survivor decides to become your worst nightmare by bodyblocking and not leaving you alone unless you slug him and / or hook him again so you get punished.
Come on, dude, we got through this already in another post. You are doing argumentative circles right now.
I do see the full picture, which is that someone on the ground for 90 seconds absolutely generates very meaningful pressure
No, it doesn't, and I explained how and why it doesn't thanks to the rest of the changes they had made!
But you know what? I already explained everything, and you are repeating the same arguments over and over again, so I'm done with this. I have a RimWorld to mod.
Post edited by Batusalen on0 -
But. You just slugged them. How are they bodyblocking if you just slugged them…?
It's after you slug them that you'd presumably go on to chase someone else, right? At which point the last-hooked survivor changes, so the person on the ground can be hooked or, if they were picked up, no longer needs to be slugged because they're no longer the one who was last hooked.
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Ive been following this thread and you’re saying everything plus then some on what I was saying but I think it might be slipping past him, that or he’s too caught up emotionally to this.
Respectfully I quit responding as I felt like I was hitting a brick wall. It’s been an interesting conversation to follow to say the least. I’m glad everyone is being vocal with their feedback.1 -
This patch buffs tf out of Larry, and I will be taking advantage of that. Also buffs Springtrap. Also if RNG is nice sorta buffs Sadako and Dredge.
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So, I explain in detail why both of you are wrong (to one of you, in two threads), as both just said the exact same thing repeatedly (in short, slugging is still effective despite all the things that make it not because you two say so), and explicitly said that I'm not going to continue repeating myself, so I'm done… but it's me who doesn't get it, and you're the one hitting a brick wall?
I love how some people's logic works.
By constantly getting up after you "slugged them"? By making the second survivor that you hooked be the one blocking you? That's assuming that you had time to do a chase and hook someone else before the "slugged" survivor gets up… Have you ever played with an M1 killer against a bully squad?
Again, we had gone through all these "extra problems" of the anti-slug + anti-tunnel systems in detail in another post. Seriously, either your short-term memory is very lacking, or you really can only process one specific concept at a time.
Either way, it doesn't matter anymore because BHVR has already announced that, to everyone's surprise, they will not be releasing any of those changes in the next chapter and will iterate over it in a future PTB to make them fairer to killers.
Kudos to BHVR for doing this despite the backlash they are going to receive for backtracking, something that I would have never expected but truly appreciate.
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See, a lot of what you says really heavily implies that you aren't taking into account how long ninety seconds actually is in this game. You say they're constantly getting up after you slugged them, so are you talking about perks to do it? Because they can't do that with the base mechanic on its own, it takes too long.
I accept that the anti-tunnel system is relevant, it's why we're talking about this at all- that's just the extent of the relevance. It's the reason you can't (or, more accurately, probably don't want to) hook the person, fair enough. It doesn't have any extra relevance other than pushing you to slug the survivor we're talking about, though, so we must necessarily be talking about the anti-slug system in this conversation.
Part of the problem here is that you tend to drift across multiple issues without stopping to really discuss the specifics of any individual one. I respect that it's a holistic issue you're trying to talk about, but we do still need to stop and do a sanity check on each part to see if there might be something being missed at any specific step.
I mean, we've now drifted to talking about a bully squad when before we were talking about someone crawling to a teammate on gens, which is a very very different situation if there's only one on gens and the rest are crowding you to bully you.
Similarly, when you say "the second person you hooked blocking you", I feel you're missing the important context that it's ONLY them you can't hook- you'd just repeat the process of leaving them on the ground and chasing someone else because only they have the last-hooked mark.It is a good thing BHVR decided to iterate on this with another PTB, there are definitely issues to iron out. I wouldn't deny that.
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See, a lot of what you says really heavily implies that you aren't taking into account how long ninety seconds actually is in this game.
Have you ever thought that maybe it is you who is misunderstanding how short 90 seconds really are in some cases? Just for context, in most maps walking from one gen to another takes a minimum of about 10 seconds.
Imagine you slug somebody. After the attack cooldown, you start checking gens looking for survivors, and you walk around 4 gens. That's more than 40 seconds already.
Now, you find another survivor, chase, and down him. Let's be generous here, and let's say it was a 30 seconds chase. That's, again, more than 70 seconds.
Pick him up, pray someone with a flashlight is not close, take him to a hook, and hook him. Depending on where the survivor has gone down, it can perfectly be another 10 seconds walk to the hook, and that is without counting the hooking animation. 80 seconds.
90 seconds is not a long time, unless you are a high-mobility killer that is flying through the map. And in fact, I propose to you an experiment: Pick an M1 killer with no mobility, and record a couple of games. When you finish, watch the videos and take notes of how much time it took you from finishing hooking one survivor to finishing hooking the next.
Trust me, you will be surprised to see how much time you really invested, even in the shortest of chases, while taking into account everything, not just the chase time. Like I said to you in another post, even hitting a survivor costs you time as a killer.
Part of the problem here is that you tend to drift across multiple issues without stopping to really discuss the specifics of any individual one.
I was discussing the specific problems the anti-slug system had. Then, you argued something that, if the anti-slug system were implemented alone, would be right. But the anti-slug system was not the only thing in this patch. So, I just pointed out that you are wrong in this case, as the anti-tunneling system also affects what you just said.
You can't talk about one system individually if it will be implemented alongside another system that influences it. But to be fair, that's BHVR's fault for implementing game-breaking systems in pairs instead of testing one at a time.
I mean, we've now drifted to talking about a bully squad when before we were talking about someone crawling to a teammate on gens
I said that because I really think you had never being put in the case of having one survivor slugged under the pallet with two other people trying to deny the hook with a full arsenal of items and perks. Because if you did, you won't be saying most of the things you are saying.
That's it.
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Okay, so, let's look at that time investment.
Right off the bat the most obvious thing to point out is that, if it takes ten seconds to walk between gens on average, that means you have time to do an entire lap around the whole gen spread and still have twenty seconds to spare before the survivor on the ground picks themselves up.
In context, that's still a long time.The next thing to do is a sanity check on the scenario you go on to describe. In that scenario, sure, you're probably not hooking the person you slugged, but there are two things to also consider in this discussion.
1: This means you got to play out an entire chase + hook in a 3v1 and the survivor in question only just picked themselves up, meaning they realistically want to reset before getting back into the action. If they don't, and especially if they run into you again, they have no protection; they'll just get hooked.
2: This opens with the killer in an explicitly bad situation, not a neutral one. Slugging someone without knowing who it is you're going for next is usually not the right play, though I'll agree that misplays from both sides surrounding the last-hooked mark would make it the right call in a lot of circumstances.
Keeping track of survivors and knowing where you're going is part of good killer play, and while you do sometimes end up wandering around generators for forty seconds, we shouldn't assume that's the default and will play out any time you have to slug someone. Hell, in the broader context of this PTB, you HAVE other information given to you basekit to help in tracking survivors. Wandering around for really any length of time without knowing where survivors are at least likely to be is bad killer play, and while sometimes everyone does end up doing it if things go poorly, it should be acknowledged as a situation to be avoided next time.After that the next thing I want to discuss is just a quick correction - when I mentioned that the self-pickup part was fine on its own, that was in the context of talking about which other systems I felt would cause problems in combination with it. I'm not ignoring the other systems being tested on this PTB, I'm making a case for which ones I think would cause problems and what I think should be done about it.
In this case, the self-pickup is fine as it allows for plenty of pressure if it's allowed to play out fully, BUT the basekit Tenacity effect is a little too strong and a little too capable of undoing that.Finally, I have been in that situation before, and I'd rather be in that one than some of the others we've discussed. Three survivors crowding me means I have much more luxury to be patient; the killer's time investment only matters because of the potential generator repair done while they're acting. If only one survivor's doing generators, my time investment is less punishing, so I can play it much more safe.
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You can say “we were just wrong” but that doesn’t mean we actually were.
Most people agree with us. I don’t have the energy to keep going back and forth with you on this topic so I will leave it here, but just to be clear on where I stand. I am FOR extreme anti tunneling and slug changes. BHVR missed the mark on that, I am glad they will be doing some adjustments.
I personally like the idea of recovery while crawling. It’s a nice QOL change. I don’t like holding the button down or having to keep pausing to hold it back down.
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And again, all your post can just be answered with: You are assuming that the slugged survivor is going to stay on the floor the whole time. What if he, again, crawls to someone doing a gen while recovering, and when he gets there he gets picked up instantly, both do the gen, and by the time you finish hooking the one survivor you found 80 seconds later, you are another gen down with 3 survivors standing?
See? This is what you do. You pick an argument with many implications, create a very specific scenario that follows your narrative, and use that specific example to make a counterargument for all of it.
That, my friend, is the definition of the fallacy of the lonely fact, with some sniper fallacy and cherry picking sprinkled over it.
So, again, I'm done with this. I already explained in detail how and why, so re-read my posts until you understand it.
You can say “we were just wrong” but that doesn’t mean we actually were.
I didn't just say "you are wrong". I also explained to you why multiple times.
Most people agree with us.
And a long time ago most people thought that the Earth was the center of the universe and even the sun orbited around it. Your point?
I personally like the idea of recovery while crawling. It’s a nice QOL change. I don’t like holding the button down or having to keep pausing to hold it back down.
They can still make the bar fill automatically when staying still without the need of a button. The problem is being able to recover while moving (among other things, as already explained).
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I just don’t agree with you, so I am moving on.
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So, this is about the third time that I've said the Tenacity part is a bit too strong and needs toning down so that what you say there requires a little more investment. At this point I don't think you're actually reading what I'm responding to you with, so I think I'm done trying too.
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