http://dbd.game/killswitch
BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong.
I genuinely do not think that the people at BHVR play killer. Until I see a video of the developers queueing into public matches and playing full on killer matches, I'm just going to assume that BHVR doesn't really know or care what the killer experience is like.
I'd LOVE to be wrong about this.
Comments
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I don’t think they even play in general. This is the single stupidest patch I have ever seen in DBD history.
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Of course they don't. Not all devs even have the game installed.
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I'm going to raise the bet here: Even if they obviously don't play, don't they have a consultant program where prominent DbD players give their opinions on future content?
How is it possible that nobody looked at these changes and told them, "Bad idea"?
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What killer? Yall think all killers are equal? Someone that plays Dracula for 20h Will win more than someone playing pig for 100h.
So the question is: do they plan b tier killers or just a tier?
Cuz i doubt this Patch hurts blights or nurses or ghouls
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Seeing a post like this is actually mindbending to me because, like
Some of these consultants have public discord servers where they talk aboit these changes and make videos discussing what they like about the changes and where they think the changes might need to be tweaked
Like maybe this is a point for self reflection, if you can't conceive that subject matter experts would not agree with you, maybe your own perspective is biased and out of touch with the more balanced perspectives
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having a program is one thing, listening to the consultants is another. Just look at the failed Chandler Riggs stream where Otz was TELLING them how to solve the problem as it was happening and they wouldn’t listen. Not to mention the knowledge of that exact issue being around forever with no fix. The disconnect the BHVR team shows from their “labor of love” is staggering sometimes.
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They do play the game. Good lord. Lets be so for real. Lets also give the changes a chance. If they don't feel right or don't work out they can be changed, altered, reverted whatever.
Im not shocked about this doom post. Killers are flying off the handles right now, and I am literally a killer main. Just relax guys.
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I'm sure they play and even a few public matches. But I doubt any play at Max MMR but honestly I don't blame them. For the majority of people these changes will be huge wins your new player will have easier time finding chases and securing hooks with the BBQ.and chili + haste boost. New players don't naturally come to the conclusion that tunneling is super effective until they start pushing against there MMR ceiling.
Or they watched some killer videos online and got outside perspective from a hardcore player who claims it's the only way to win.
But this is the thing catering to high MMR players is how you ruins games your advice is always terrible for the average player which boils down to survivors are OP please nerf. New players rage about how easy killer is nerfing survivors is totally illogical to the.
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Remember that the burden of proof lies with the one who makes the claim.
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My proof is is that if you search these forms and the steam forms and click on threads about game being unwinnable for Killers it's a 2000 plus our account with no Doubt an 85+ kill rate. You'll see a lot of threads about baby survivors complaining that killers are unbeatable. Hardly ever a thread for new killers struggling with the game. The killer role is solely difficult in high MMR this is widely accepted and understood. You see posts "they shouldn't be balancing the game around not having everyone working on generators" or "comms give 12+ perks for free" despite new players not using comms in that manner at all since they don't even have the game knowledge to.
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Firstly, I was responding to OP, not you per se.
Second, your 'proof' is based on assumptions. That's not helping anyone.
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I don't think they play either killer or survivor, tbh.. But I do think they want to try to make it better.
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The PTB notes are not enough proof to you? Because is more than enough for me.
You can't be any more tone deaf than this. It's impossible that after years of the killer community predicting where the game was going with all the wrong changes they have done and warning them about what the real problems are, they not just decide to keep ignoring them but literally made the Survivor's Rule Book basekit on top of punishing the killer for playing good and smart AND, because why not at this point, nerfing regression perks once again.
They don't play killer, they don't listen to killers, they don't care about killers, and worst of all, they don't care about balance the game. Just make baby entitled survivors happy so they keep buying cosmetics.
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Tunneling and slugging have been complained about for as long as the game's been popular. Not listening to those complaints would have been even more tone death.
And no, it's not proof. It's conjecture based on an emotional response to the changes.
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Thats why in higher mmr you will see more s-tier and a-tier killers, mediocre and lower tier killers are suicede mission in high mmr and most often require huge mistake from survivors to get upper hand. Survivors that claim that every killer has every time upoer hand and always can twelve hook the game without tunneling are the same that cant spot difference between blight and wraith in terms of gameplay and outcomes, not every killer has same option thats why you will see dominate more blights in high mmr than mayers or wraiths.
-1 -
Every time I mention that the game shouldn't cater solely to its top 5-10% people lose it. You don't get new players by only satisfying the top-tier old-timers and locking new players out. Eventually those old-timers will also leave too and you'll have nothing. A constant stream of new players is what the game needs.
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How about: a stated kill rate target of 60 to 65%?
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I'm stating an opinion (I do not BELIEVE the BHVR devs play killer) and asking for proof otherwise. I am not saying that without a doubt, BHVR doesn't play killer. I'm saying that I'm assuming so until I see other evidence.
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I mean yeah. The update to "lessen deadzones" by changing pallet spawns or increasing… ended up making you able to chain the entire map if you really wanted to. Throw in a bit of greed on the pallets and suddenly even though the maps got a little smaller it doesn't matter because they ALWAYS make another pallet.
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But half the time 'tunneling' is claimed, its not tunneling. Ive had people rage at me in EGC for 'tunneling' when the first death was after every survivor had 1 hook state and at least one other had 2.... True tunneling isn't half as prevalent as people act like it is.
Anyway tbd what actually happens with the PTB, but im not optimistic.
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you are not wrong! i made a joke abt the "balancing team" at bhvr some time ago. i said "balancing team at bhvr are made out of 2 types of people: survivor mains, and legion mains". all of my friends agreed.
i wish you were wrong though. but unfortunately, you are correct.-1 -
Here you go
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That doesn't take away that, even if it's half of the complaints, that same half of the complaints are valid.
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And nobody is saying they should not address it. But first, this is not anti-tunneling, this are just more handholding basekit mechanics for survivors that punish killers whatever they are tunneling or not, and protect survivors for doing bad.
Second, they need to address first why killers tunnel and slug before addressing hard tunneling and slugging itself. In short, they should cure the disease before trying to heal the symptoms, or they are just going to make it all worst (like, with this patch).
Third, yes, it's more than enough proof by now. The only good thing about this patch is that it is showing the people that really wants the game to be balanced, and those who doesn't even understand the game they are playing and just want a one sided powertrip.
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I am not waiting for them to iron things out after a year. And by ironing out i mean barely changing it.
So many things are wrong with this update it's unreal.
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In fact, want to fix this atrocious update and make it "fair" and really punish tunnelers, not just killers doing good? Here is my version:
Anti-Slugging system:
- If the survivor is in the dying state for 90 consecutive seconds, he can get up without any help.
- The timer resets everytime the survivor is downed.
- Revert the auto-recovery change. You need to stay still and push the button to recover.
That's it. They will still be able to move fast over time, but at least in the last stages of the match you will be able to get some pressure, as they will have to still recover most of the bar by themselves or make another survivor lose some time healing them if they decide to move for help.
Anti-
LosingTunneling system:- Revert unhooked survivors being immune to killer instinct.
- In other words, remove the Legion indirect nerf.
- Prevent survivors from using items while the unhook effects are active / Remove losing collision with the killer.
- Don't allow flashbang exploits.
- Make the use of items and activated perks a Conspicuous action.
- Relevant later.
- Prevent survivors from getting hit while unhook effects are active.
- No more weaponizing free Endurance by bodyblocking and then crying for being hooked again.
- Remove seeing the killer aura while unhooked.
- No free info for SWF.
- Allow Killers to see hook phases in addition to the last hooked survivor.
- Something that should be already in the game, more so now with all the conditions on hooks.
- Change repair speed buff condition: If the last hooked survivor is killed while less than 2 gens are done, the rest of the survivors get a repair buff (not friking 25%, tho).
- Still not good, as survivors should not be rewarded for losing. But at least now don't punish the killer for playing good, and it still allow him for a comeback mid-late game while compensating survivors for early tunneling.
- Change to regression block: If the last hooked survivor is killed after being downed before 60 seconds have passed since being unhooked, all generators can't be regressed or blocked.
- Truly penalize only tunnelers.
- It activates if the last hooked survivor is downed again in 60 seconds after being unhooked to prevent the killer from just slugging him and wait.
- If a conspicuous action is done before the time passes, it will deactivate.
- If the survivor gets up from the dying state by any means, it will deactivate.
- The killer will see the effect time left alongside the last survivor hooked icon in the UI / will warn the killer that hooking that survivor will get him punished, so he knows when he can hook him again safely.
- This, along with all other changes, should allow for the unhooked survivor to get to safety and not be worthy for the killer to tunnel him.
No more hand-holding, exploiting reduced to the maximum, and it still compensate survivors for having one of them die soon on the match. All that without punishing killers that are playing good, reduce the amount of times a killer can be put in lose / lose situations, and really punishing hard tunnelers.
5 minutes took me to thought this, so forgive me if I can't believe that a team of 300 people can't come up with something like this or better instead of the abomination they are testing right now.
-14 - If the survivor is in the dying state for 90 consecutive seconds, he can get up without any help.
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Knowing bhvr and a video I saw a long time ago before it was an actual program and they'd sometimes just invite cc's to test stuff out, they probably just went, "That's great, we don't care, we're doing it anyways because you don't actually know how the game works." Ya know, like a couple weeks ago when they did The Walking Dead livestream and Otz made a suggestion and they doubled down that a strategy to deal with hackers wasn't actually a strategy to deal with them despite the content creators knowing for a fact that it worked.
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You don't really have a choice in that matter. Your wait time is based on what they feel is best. That sucks to hear but it is what it is. Ryan is already collecting a lot of feedback as I am sure Mandy is too.
Keep putting your feedback in, keep playing the ptb. That's all you can do.
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Just so we're clear on what we're talking about here, what do you think is the "disease" here?
Also, I think it's somewhat curious that we're calling it 'handholding', when tunnelling has been the path of least resistance for the game's entire lifespan. Moreover, even if the mechanics activate, the survivors are still down one man, which is still a far superior pressure method, by simple virtue of tasks needing to be done versus the people available to do it. A faster speed is hardly going to matter if you never get the chance to use it because you're busy saving, being chased, on hook, etc..
I'll get to your second post tomorrow, I've had a long day and I don't think tired me is capable of combing through your proposals properly.
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They play probably agains same survivors as mathieu with hag on that legendary south corea stream and their skill with killers is probably same too.
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he’s calling it handholding because it’s not anti tunneling, getting hooked three times in a row very quickly is tunneling. Getting killed off early because you’re being greedy/out of position/doing gens instead of healing/trying to use your anti-tunnel buffs to attack the killer isn’t tunneling and it shouldn’t be punished. And I’m tired of seeing this “with three people alive no one is doing an objective” with the second chance perks, drastic increase in pallets, and any amount of skill a survivor can waste plenty of time on killers who aren’t the super high tiers. We don’t want to be forced to play blight and nurse, some of us want to play ghost face every once in a while and have a chance to do something other than get 2 hooks 45 broken pallets, and BM’d at the exit gates and taunted by the “non-toxic” side of the community. And to be clear I’m not saying low tier killer should be able to tunnel, but they should be able to take a survivor out of the game asap if that survivor is playing poorly, instead of letting them go for no reason other than spreading hooks that they don’t have the time to spread because they’re already so disadvantaged in chase.
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As I've said in other threads I think they did these changes just trying to force break all survivor complaints and did not consider low movement killer enjoyment whatsoever, but hey find comfort in theor message that they can still adjust the numbers.
-1 -
You would be right if it wasn't because they get a 25% repair bonus for just a survivor dying. Without any condition on what part of the match this triggers, and even if the killer wasn't tunneling at all.
For instance, a 25% repair bonus means a base repair speed of 1.25 charges per second. That's one survivor repairing a gen in 72 seconds without taking into account any perk or item. Two survivors? 42.3 seconds, which is lower than 3 survivors on one gen without any progression bonus (42.8 seconds aprox).
Now, let's assume this situation:
- M1 killer with no mobility.
- Survivor A is hooked.
- Survivor B is hooked.
- Survivor A is hooked again.
- After a while, Survivor A makes a mistake and walks directly to the killer.
- 3 gens had been done in this time.
Now, the killer has these options:
- Ignore Survivor A and waste more time that he doesn't have finding, chasing, downing, and hooking another survivor.
- Slug Survivor A and, again, waste more time. Except this is no longer a viable option, as you now don't get any pressure from slugging.
- Down and hook Survivor A again. He just granted the other 3 survivors a 25% repair bonus and the ability to not regress or block the 2 gens left, completely denying any chance of a comeback at this point.
In other words, he was punished even when he wasn't tunneling and the survivor was the one making a mistake. It makes it so the killer is the one punished for survivors mistakes and prevents them from even trying to make a comeback mid to late game if their only option to have a chance was getting one survivor out of the game.
So again, these mechanics don't address tunneling. It's just another hand-holding, safe-net mechanic for survivors in disguise.
Just so we're clear on what we're talking about here, what do you think is the "disease" here?
In the core, gen times. On top of it, there are the multiple changes to healing, the amount of second-chance perks survivors can use to make chases longer, and all the basekit mechanics they implemented over the years that made the problem worse. To the point of making slugging survivors more viable than hooking.
And BHVR, instead of addressing the main issue before trying to fix the problems it caused, kept releasing hand-holding basekit mechanics one after the other to the point of literally letting survivors quit a lost match and count it as a win.
Now, this new patch that punishes those who don't even tunnel. Because again, nobody is saying they should not implement systems to prevent hard tunneling and slugging, but this is not it.
So, they either didn't even listen to what killers have been saying for years now, or they simply don't care about the killer experience at all. There is no other conclusion.
Post edited by Batusalen on-4 -
They want pig that just lets them touch the nose or bubba eating just paletts and getting stuned then camping last kill on gates with 3 clicking survivors maybe. These changes are kinda meh you are getting punished even if you play nice and fair, you are getting punished if you are playing weaker killer heavily and in endgame where none of these antitunnel changes should work they still get 30 seconds endurence plus haste which is pull unhook and its free escape so yeah very clear message from devs in the way whats your problem nurse is free killer.
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I'm gonna go through this by point.
- I'm inclined to wait and see how the current systems affect slugging before we change anything. Remember that 90 seconds is a long time in DbD terms.
- Sure? I do not have a strong opinion on this.
- The Killer Instict proposal I hard-disagree with. We want to discourage tunnelling as much as we can, not allow a loophole.
- I'd err on the side of caution with this one. I'd prefer to make using an item a Conspicious action. They removed collision to remove instances of bodyblocking to subvert the protection mechanics.
- Items yes, which I think was already the case? With perks I'd go on a case-by-case basis, if any.
- Agreed, though I'd argue that the removal of collision is a part of this.
- I haven't played the PTB, so I'm not sure what this is referring to? This sounds like the effects of Kindred. Do you want to kill Kindred? That's quite a hit to solo players.
- Agreed.
- This assumes that the three survivors that are not being chased aren't doing gens. A game with a hard tunneler (that also isn't, say, Nurse) will progress past 2 gens being done before the first kill happens, simply because they have nothing else to do. This also encourages stalling on the survivor side in the case of a tunnelling killer. They can just leave gens at 99%, 'claim' the speed bonus, and then complete the gens.
- You're moving the issue here.
- What's stopping the killer from slugging the unhooked, applying pressure elsewhere, then returning to the unhooked survivor when they've been helped up to down and kill them? This turns it into a tunnel from hook into a tunnel from slug.
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You also see a narrative for the entire game's lifespan that Killers are the most pitiable and weakest group of players and that every entity, official or otherwise, is against them. You see entire communities split off into Killer-only groups because they're convinced that any pushback is evidence that they are othered. It takes the odds being objectively stacked in their favor to the point that their opponents are more likely to give up every trial than to play it out in order for the game to look balanced from their perspective.
All of this to say—the backlash is prominent and expected, but that doesn't mean that it's more valuable as a result. Let's see how the PTB plays out and go from there.
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Why even bother playing this game if everything is in excel?
That's how I feel about this game changes
-1 -
I'm inclined to wait and see how the current systems affect slugging before we change anything. Remember that 90 seconds is a long time in DbD terms.
90 seconds is nothing. SWF with a couple of flashlights, and a survivor can spend half that time under a pallet while the killer is dealing with the orbiters going for a save. Also, with the other changes that remove any need to lose generator time to pick up that survivor, it is almost impossible to generate any pressure as a killer by slugging.
The Killer Instict proposal I hard-disagree with. We want to discourage tunnelling as much as we can, not allow a loophole.
Then Legion's power needs to be buffed by reducing the number of hits needed, as now even with the 4 survivors alive, it will be impossible for him to get it if one survivor has been unhooked in the last 30 seconds.
Also, they get their advantages for 30 seconds now, and there is nothing preventing the killer from simply following that survivor from the hook if he really wants to tunnel him (which is the fun part of this mechanic, that it doesn't really prevent hard tunneling at all). So, I don't think your argument here is valid.
I'd err on the side of caution with this one. I'd prefer to make using an item a Conspicious action. They removed collision to remove instances of bodyblocking to subvert the protection mechanics.
I prefer to do both. As I said, the reason for removing the use of items while the hook effects are active is because they had literally made the unavoidable flashbang exploit, basekit (without collision, they can get inside the killer, drop the flashbang, and the killer can't do anything to avoid it).
About the bodyblocking, I don't know exactly what you mean with "subvert the protection mechanics", to be honest. But just take into account that using a medkit to heal (as using an item is not a conspicuous action per se, but healing is) removes the lack of collision.
So, use your lack of collision to get in front of the killer, use the medkit with Styptic Agent and Anti-Hemorrhagic Syringe, and voila! Perfect bodyblocking with Endurance.
Items yes, which I think was already the case? With perks I'd go on a case-by-case basis, if any.
The perk part was before I thought that it would be better to simply lose the activation of the "Generator blocking" if the survivor got up in any way.
About the items, no, they aren't right now. As I said, the only items that are technically considered a "conspicuous action" are toolboxes and medkits, as even if using the item itself is not, repairing and healing are.
Which means they can still use flashbangs, flashlights and fog vials while maintaining the 30 seconds buffs from being unhooked.
Agreed, though I'd argue that the removal of collision is a part of this.
That's the funny thing. The lack of collision does not prevent survivors from doing protection hits. In fact, it only makes them easier and more beneficial as now you can't hook that survivor again without getting punished (8:50, if the video doesn't start directly on that point):
I haven't played the PTB, so I'm not sure what this is referring to? This sounds like the effects of Kindred. Do you want to kill Kindred? That's quite a hit to solo players.
I don't have any problem with Kindred. It is one of the effects survivors get when unhooked now. Free 32 meters killer aura reading for 30 seconds:
That's what I want removed.
Agreed.
To be fair, it is part of the update, but it was not explained well in the notes that stated you will be able to see "the last hooked survivor". Something good in this patch.
This assumes that the three survivors that are not being chased aren't doing gens. A game with a hard tunneler (that also isn't, say, Nurse) will progress past 2 gens being done before the first kill happens, simply because they have nothing else to do. This also encourages stalling on the survivor side in the case of a tunnelling killer. They can just leave gens at 99%, 'claim' the speed bonus, and then complete the gens.
If they do that against a tunneling killer, I think it's a smart move from the survivors, and I won't care. In fact, that's what we need: mechanics that reward good plays, not only hand-hold you by handcuffing and punishing the other part.
The problem is that as it is right now, the survivor dying doesn't need to die by being tunneled (meaning, they don't even have to be the last hooked survivor or die on hook, simply die) and they can get the 25% with just 2 or 1 gen left, which makes it impossible for the killer to make a comeback.
In fact, right now, if a survivor dies by a Reverse Trap from Pig without being hooked even once, it will activate the supposed "anti-early tunneling" mechanic. The same with Sadako's Condemn. And even better, if that survivor killed was the last one hooked as well, it will activate the generator blocking (meaning no regression for the rest of the match). Again, this punishes even the killers designed to kill the survivors without any hook done, tunneling or not.
And for anyone saying that 25% is not that much… you are wrong:
You're moving the issue here.
What's stopping the killer from slugging the unhooked, applying pressure elsewhere, then returning to the unhooked survivor when they've been helped up to down and kill them? This turns it into a tunnel from hook into a tunnel from slug.
The survivors been smart enough to not get up, whether it is by themselves or with help, while the killer can get them again instantly. Just as right now in live, I mean, it's not a good idea to get up someone in front of the killer without a plan (perk that grants endurance on getting up, etc.).
What is preventing a killer from just following someone for 30 seconds to down and hook him again in the PTB right now? Absolutely nothing. The difference between my proposal and BHVR is that mine doesn't punish killers that aren't really tunneling.
Post edited by Batusalen on0 -
Instahealing, instaflashlights, infinite loops, take the killer hostage, old DH, old MfT, overpowered perk combos not touched in years… No, yeah, no, killers had no reason to complain ever in the whole story of this game, and it has never been a survivor-sided power trip.
Come on, dude.
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Im confused what you mean here are you implying that only killer sided players have enclaved communities because their so fragile that they cant exist in a commingled space? Could it just be that they want to be involved in communities where discussion about gameplay is primarily from the perspective of the side they play in the game? Im not sure how this has convinced you that killers in those communities all suddenly think they are othered or something. Though it is a bit rich you talked about them feeling othered then wrote a whole post basically diminishing killer only players and their feedback from their perspective. Not sure how killer only feedback is so tainted that it shouldn't be as valued as you seemed to put it. Though maybe I misinterpreted your message here.
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Not only does that ignore the amount of busted things Killer has had over the years in equal measure, it also ignores what I said. I said there is a self-imposed pity and borderline leper culture around Killer. Now that doesn't mean that the role is in a perfect spot or that it's a bed of roses every trial, but it does mean that there is a heavy emotional anchor that always needs to be considered when it comes to topics like these.
It could be, but I personally haven't seen that commonly enough to consider it too strongly. Mind you, I don't say these things lightly and they naturally don't apply to every individual player. I'm talking about the community as a whole based on what I've seen on every platform I've lurked/discussed the game on, so don't shoot the messenger. Someone else might have a completely different experience or perspective from me.
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Sorry, but that's a projection so pure that Tuco is interested in selling it.
For each crying killer I had seen in these forums or the game, I had seen dozens of survivors that obviously hadn't played killer for more than 5 minutes claiming that even with all the basekit mechanics and indirect help survivors received over the years, Killers are the ones getting hand-held and that both the game and BHVR is Killer sided. To the point of defending cheating and exploiting bugs because "Killers OP".
One of my favorite "gameplay experiences as a Killer main" I had was that time a bully squad called me a baby killer, a slugger and desired for me to "not wake up in the morning next time I go to sleep" because I downed one of them, and the other 3, with flashlights and toolboxes, wanted to prevent me from hooking him at any cost, which resulted in all of them getting downed and hooked soon after. According to them, what I should have done is let them do the save and win.
But no, yeah, obviously the killer mains are the ones with the leper culture that take it all too emotionally and do not realize or care for the amount of advantages and hand-holding they have in the game. The survivor community has a strong grip on the realities of the game and in no way or form starts complaining and brigading everywhere just based on their subjective opinion.
And just curious, what are the "amount of busted things Killer has had over the years", exactly? The Eruption meta? In fact, where is our "anti-genrushing system" to prevent survivors from doing all gens without being able to kill one?
Oh, and by the way…
Can you show me your most used killer, please? Just so we have context of your point of view.
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“Slug Survivor A and, again, waste more time. Except this is no longer a viable option, as you now don't get any pressure from slugging.”
This part is false. You do get pressure from slugging. They can’t get up instantly. That’s a whole person not on a gen right? Hence, pressure. Someone has to go get them up, more pressure.
(You have 90 seconds to play with that)1 -
The pressure of slugging is not having one survivor on the ground per se, it is making another one stop repairing a gen to get him up while you chase another.
With the new anti-slugging, there is no need for that. The survivor on the ground can use his free Tenacity to get closer to a gen a survivor is repairing while building both recovery and the free Unbreakable.
If the survivor on the gen finishes before the survivor on the ground gets up, go to pick him up midway. If the survivor on the ground gets there before the gen is done, pick him up instantly and finish the gen together. If he gets the free Unbreakable, there is no need for anyone to pick him up anymore.
So no, you can't get true pressure for slugging anymore.
-2 -
Bro not true. Survivor on the ground=no gen progress from him. Survivor goes to pick up=no gen progress, survivor in chase=no gen progress.
Not to mention if you cut the guy off who is going for pick up.
So yes you can’t slug endlessly and mindlessly like a slug bot but to say it CANNOT be used as a tool to slow gen speed or that it’s dead is false.
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Survivor on the ground=no gen progress
Until he gets free Unbreakable.
Survivor goes to pick up=no gen progress
There's no need to go for the pick up, because the downed survivor can either come to you while recovering or pick up himself while you still do the gen.
Not to mention if you cut the guy off who is going for pick up.
Again, you won't, because there is no need to prioritize going for the pick up over gens anymore.
So yes you can’t slug endlessly and mindlessly like a slug bot but to say it CANNOT be used as a tool to slow gen speed or that it’s dead is false.
And yet, you haven't provided a single argument of why I'm wrong, just repeat what you already said.
Post edited by Batusalen on4 -
Until he gets free Unbreakable.
Until is the key word. Until then. The slugged survivor cannot work on a gen. Hence Pressure. Point proven.
There's no need to go for the pick up, because the downed survivor can either come to you while recovering or pick up himself while you still do the gen.
The survivor barely crawls as fast as one of Nemmy's slow zombies. It will still take you quite a while crawl to the survivor. What's happening in the meantime? Oh, thats right. They are not working on a Gen. They can only pick themselves up if its been 90 seconds. So again back to the first point. If they have unbreakable then sure. They get to do that once with a perk. Still on the ground, still no hands on a gen, just in the dirt.
Again, you won't, because there is no need to prioritize going for the pick up over gens anymore.
This is false. You stop the rescuer and prevent his teammate from being picked up. 2 people not on a gen. If he isn't going for the save yet then perfect, go chase someone, then THEY are not on a gen as well. Either way thats still 2 people not on a gen.
And yet, you haven't provided a single argument of why I'm wrong, just repeat what you already said.
Im literally counter arguing you bro. Im a killer main and your take here is wild. You sound like you just want to hardcore slug everyone and if thats the case, thats your issue, you will defend this tooth and nail.
But again, to say that SLUGGING provides no real benefit is 100% false. Lets be so for real. I am not saying the change they made is perfect and wont need an adjustment cause I believe it does, but my point stand.
Slugged survivor literally=Survivor cant work on a gen. That benefits the killer. Theres no arguing that point because its a fact.
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This was written over two days so this is going to be very disjointed:
I must say that this has already gone well beyond my original point. I don't even necessarily disagree with the notion that the changes are too heavy-handed. I just think the idea that BHVR "doesn't play killer" is borderline infantile. I also disagree with the use of the word 'handholding', cause that's not what is happening. The survivors are still a man down. That's still a massive detriment. Handholding would imply they're given free wins because someone got tunnelled, which is absurd.
As for the specifics…
I want to emphasise that I'm on the fence on the slugging mechanics. I see your argument, but at the same time I wonder how much this actually happens. Which why I say to wait and see how this situation develops. It may need adjustments, it may not.
Regarding Killer Instict, I still disagree. Legion getting a frenzy down is rather rare to begin with in my experience, so I'm not sure how this changes anything. All this does is prevent Legion from stabbing the unhooker, and immediately knowing where the unhooked survivor is, and virtually ignore anti-tunnelling perks on top of that.
Additionally, an unhooked survivor has just about every advantage over the killer for that period. Unless the killer sees the unhook itself happening, they don't even know if it happened. I think your main argument is that the killer is still 'punished' in what I'll call a 'collossal survivor mistake scenario.' In which an unhooked survivor, despite all the mechanics in place to prevent it from happening, still got themselves found by the killer twice, or even thrice in a row, leading to their death.
Almost all of your concerns about 'handholding' seem to stem from this collosal mistake scenario. Which, mind you, I don't even think is an unreasonable scenario, albeit a rare one.
Thing is, that 25% only comes into effect if there's a kill before 6 hooks (hook events? there's a difference here and im not sure which applies currently). If a killer is already at 1 gen left, and they manage to trigger the 25%, they realistically weren't winning that game anyway, eh? Like, I understand that it feels rather heavy-handed, and that it eliminates an opportunity for a comeback, but were you really coming back from 1 gen left? Furthermore, even if the gens are done, that game still isn't over. You might still get another kill. Multiple if you're lucky.
In isolation, 25% is massive, but again, if the survivors are constantly pressured by hooks, saves, etc., then they won't be able to use that bonus. I think, more than anything, this demonstrates that this measyre doesn't dissuade the strongest killers from tunnelling as much as the weaker ones.
Personally, I'd have gone with the first kill being allowed at 5 hooks, rather than 6. Maybe even 4? We'd have to experiment. I agree 6 is a lot, when my average match is around 9-10 hooks total.
Regarding the loss of collision, I was under the impression this also prevented hitting, which doesn't make sense in hindsight. Aggressive protection hits from the saved survivor are an issue, yes. Though I'd go for making protection hits a conspicious action, thereby cancelling out the Endurance.
The survivors been smart enough to not get up, whether it is by themselves or with help, while the killer can get them again instantly.
Except this is just slugging. Smart or not, it's boring as hell for the affected survivor, which is precisely what we want to avoid.
Post edited by GentlemanFridge on0 -
Until is the key word. Until then. The slugged survivor cannot work on a gen. Hence Pressure. Point proven.
Nobody has said otherwise.
But the advantage of slugging someone instead of hooking them was that it has the same pressure effect as a hook (meaning, someone should stop doing gens to go for the save) while not losing time hooking the survivor itself.
Now, and again, that pressure effect is gone because there is no reason to go pick up that survivor over finishing a gen. So, it will be better to hook him instead to make pressure… except you can, or you will be punished and / or survivors rewarded.
The only thing you are proving is that you don't understand what you are talking about.
The survivor barely crawls as fast as one of Nemmy's slow zombies. It will still take you quite a while crawl to the survivor. What's happening in the meantime? Oh, thats right. They are not working on a Gen. They can only pick themselves up if its been 90 seconds. So again back to the first point. If they have unbreakable then sure. They get to do that once with a perk. Still on the ground, still no hands on a gen, just in the dirt.
The speed is not the problem, only makes it worst. The problem is that the crawling survivor is moving at the same time he is recovering, while also building up his free Unbreakable.
So, again, the smart move is no leave the gen for the pick up, and for the survivor to crawl as close as he can to that gen while is getting done. Really, is not that hard to understand.
This is false. You stop the rescuer and prevent his teammate from being picked up. 2 people not on a gen. If he isn't going for the save yet then perfect, go chase someone, then THEY are not on a gen as well. Either way thats still 2 people not on a gen.
Again, you can't stop the rescuer if there is no rescuer. Because the smart move is, again, not picking up that survivor and keep doing gens while he passively recover.
Im literally counter arguing you bro. Im a killer main and your take here is wild.
No, you aren't.
And now that you mention it, just to have context, can you post a screenshot of your most used killer from the official stats, please?
You sound like you just want to hardcore slug everyone and if thats the case, thats your issue, you will defend this tooth and nail.
How, exactly, have you come to that conclusion? Especially when my only complains against the anti-slugging are the 90 seconds being global with free Unbreakable and survivors being able to recover themselves while moving. I'm fine with the other changes.
But again, to say that SLUGGING provides no real benefit is 100% false. Lets be so for real. I am not saying the change they made is perfect and wont need an adjustment cause I believe it does, but my point stand.
Slugged survivor literally=Survivor cant work on a gen. That benefits the killer. Theres no arguing that point because its a fact.
There is no real benefit if your reason for the slug was slowing down gen progression, and I explained to you why 3 times by now . If you don't want to accept it, it's your problem.
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To be frank, none of that has anything to do with what I said.
Even with these current changes, a strong point of contention is that Survivor is being hand-held because they already have mechanics that make teamwork more functional (like the HUD) and that they have basekit mechanics that make the strongest Killer comebacks somewhat less viable though not enough to be strong counters. Not to get ina p*ssing contest over that, just saying that both sides are equally criticized. The narrative will always be SWF/gen-rushing vs camping/tunneling/slugging.
Likewise, communcation is one of those self-inflicted problems. It's an element of every PVP game ever and not only does DBD have an aggressive chat filter, there are a number of options to silence all communication with other players entirely. Though I will give you that—Killers are more likely to get salt.
The reality, in my experience, is that even when both sides are facing similar situations, Killer players are usually the most likely to take it personally. I've never seen Survivors do it to the same degree. For me, it has a lot less to do with "us vs. them" and is more of a psychological thing. It has me wondering what the draw is to each role.
Listen, I get that you wanna whip it out and slap it on the table, but that's a diversion tactic. It's no secret that DBD is a game of investment—whichever role you feel the most invested in is where your bias lies. For me, that's Survivor. For you, it might be Killer (I'm not going to assume that however). No amount of experience in either role is likely to change that. On top of that, if I had 5k hours on Killer and a 90% KR, would that make my opinion more valid? What if I had 100 hours and a 50% KR? It means nothing.
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