Once again killer wins
Comments
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What this whole thing has shown me more than anything, is just how much agency and decision making people are willing to remove just so they can stick it to the tunnelers.
... and no I'm not talking about killer side agency, I'm talking about Survivor. So many people are so dead set against tunnelling and slugging, that they were genuinely happy to incorporate rules that meant the killer poses next to 0 threat to them in numerous scenarios and they don't have to think at all. The casual survivor experience is apparently being able to do whatever you want without any risk of punishment at all...
It wasn't even measured, like "well there are a few problematic scenarios, so the killer penalties would be fine if performing a Conspicuous Action disabled the effect". That wouldn't be something I would agree with, but it would have been quite reasonable...
However instead it was "no, you're boosted, these scenarios don't exist or don't matter, stop tunneling and learn to play". Not even a shred of reflection about how this inflicts punishments if you aren't even tunneling, disproportionately affects the roster and encourages 1 archetype of killer above all others.
I even heard people arguing that "casual killers don't tunnel", which completely ignores the point you can get caught by this even if you aren't tunneling, as well as empowering the Survivor bully squads to beat up on and push away all the casual killers so they only have the try hard sweats left anyway...
I play Survivor main, I was surprised to learn I am a Survibor main, but by the numbers, I am quite definitively a Survivor main... and yet... I'm here having to defend the killer side cause these changes were so bad, I was genuinely losing any desire to attempt to win... because even if I did? Who cares when my opponent is effectively a dancing bear being paraded around in shackles?
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Killer mains losing their minds is a pretty big reason this got thrown out entirely within a couple of days and not the full PTB. I don't know why you think it could be anything else. If the majority were calm about it stating the flaws and not screeching "DBD IS DEAD I'M LEAVING I QUIT", then they would probably just adjust some stuff mid PTB and push more changes when it came to live like normal.
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I was being sarcastic in regards to the comment you responded too. So, you're welcome?
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Wow... survivor mains still around complaininf the game is killersided. I understand the bias, but what about common sense and marh? Did all of you skip school? Compare gen time to chase time. BHVR is catering to the bigger side of player. In an asymetrical game the majority of costumers to please are the survivor. That's why they come up with literal baby care rules in a survival horror game. What the heck did you expect , when you bought a "survival horror game" with the intend to play as the survivor?? Ever seen a slasher movie? "But I am a survivor, I should survive". No, most of you are supposed to be "victims". But you don't sell games, if you call 4/5th of the player victims.
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Whatever the opinions of the PTB, the worrying conclusion is that BHVR decided to fit in way too much, way too soon. That PTB had a new chapter to trial, a new killer update in The Shape, and so many extra changes. Why they didn't spread out the changes over several months so as to perfect one aspect was very confusing, and it's resulted in an absolute mess of a PTB, with the neq chapter of a genuinely disturbing killer being swamped by everything else.
They really need to slow down and think more about game changes. My biggest problem woth all this was they could have had another original chapter that had the potential to stir as much excitement as "All Things Wicked", but instead they ruined it big time by it all being swamped by everything else. It was a very disappointing move by them.
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Its factual information that survivor is better, and its in the stats too for the most part.
It isn't. Stats range from survivors being very slightly underpowered (High MMR 4-man) to being dramatically underpowered (High MMR solo).
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Yeah, you can't always assume, but some people hide their biases better than others. Many out themselves with their wording by saying things like "you survivors [this]" and "killers always [that]".
I do sometimes both. So what side am I on?
Throughout this fight, because I dared to say things like "let's test it out before we decide how we feel
Normally I’m against negative reviews or hot takes on a test build, but this change was wild. Sorry — I’ve got enough gamesense to see where this goes. I wrote a long review the day PTB went live, and it wasn’t positive, and it wasn’t “let’s wait and see.” I can already tell the endpoint. And even if they roll it back or scrap it, I see the sunk time: design hours, team effort, budget — time and resources that could’ve gone into bug fixes, map reworks, better hit-reg, or other core issues. That’s why “just wait first” doesn’t land for me here.
and.. y,
I’m pro straight talk. If it’s in my POV BS, I’ll call it. What bugs me is the instant “yah, XY mains” label the moment you hold a firm position.
You’re hitting an important point: you should be able to take a clear stance on a specific issue without getting the bias label every time. Those blanket “bias” calls are what push the convo into Us vs Them and camp-thinking. I find that tough—and y, a bit sad. But whatever.
I've been accused of never playing killer, posting both killer and survivor stats that weren't mine, and lying about not tunneling and slugging.
…y, your example shows how far this gets extremized. It shouldn’t. It’s dumb to crank up the Us vs Them label talk and let it escalate. It’s fine to defend a side emotionally (I do too, safe safe) — but this badge-handing (“XY-mains,” “biased”) hurts the convo. Clear language: yes. Boxes: no. Let’s critique points and numbers, not identities — otherwise we’re the ones making Us vs Them bigger.
You brought up a really important point, so I wanted to chime in again — sorry. idk. The thread was drifting that way again.
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For me it’s the reverse. Survivors have it rougher, but the balance still leans surv. Just my POV.
But you just suck as surv” isn’t a productive take too. You can be cracked, but if the killer is good and goes all-in for the win, you die the moment your team doesn’t follow through. That’s the shift from old DbD: it’s way more of a team game now. One strong player doesn’t solo-carry against a strong killer.
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I just want consistency this had 3 days before getting announced it was axed.. anything new that benefits the killer we need to be patient. See how it pans out. How many negative posts about clown were made on both sides and they demanded it go through to test.
That's the issue how you handle balancing and update decisions should be consistent for both sides because otherwise your gonna get really toxic lines in the sand. This is a behavior problem they mismanaged the issue. Should have get it go live because how are you supposed see how something so big would play out when you have less then 1% of the player base testing something. And to top it off it had new survivor new killer myers rework and others.
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Get used to it. With the main Twitchers being killers mains, they're always gonna win.. Look at made for this. It offered 3% haste when injured. "It's too much" cried the likes of otz.. Meanwhile play with your food offers Killers 15% haste..
This is the second time they've done an update to help survivors and the second time it's been cancelled. You might get anti tunnel and anti slug in 2028, but it'll be as useless as anti camp.
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Don’t ship it. Didn’t even belong in PTB. Step outside new player queues for two minutes and the outcome’s obvious. :/
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The average kill rate is 65% (including games with a dc) and killers say "the game is the most balanced it's ever been". Completely warped mentality about what balance means in a pvp game.
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That’s not how averages work. I’m sure there are survivors with a 90% escape rate. This would also apply to killers.
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Yeah I'm sure. Behavior spent more time typing up the patch notes for the ptb. Not including development time my dear. Just them typing the notes then they allowed players to actually test the system. That's a joke that shows you The ears of behavior are to Killers.
Even something like which no one even said was overpowered that people from bringing medkits stopped people from bringing tool boxes got neutered in 2 weeks.and now insult to injury Nerf's toolbox, med kits and flashlights even more by simply reducing how many we can have because we have more blood web clutter instead of just removing this neutered item
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Gen time and chase time doesn't determine what bias BHVR is showing. At best Killrates do, which are quite heavily skewed in the Killer players favor, no matter how much mental gymnastics you try to apply to prove that it is not. Funny how you try to argue with common sense and math when there is a single statistic that disproves everything you can think up.
I am not saying that it's necessarily a bad thing that Killer's kill and therefore win the majority of matches, although 55/45 rates probably would have made more sense in my opinion. Killer's are supposed to feel like an unstoppable force, but the changes that were proposed didn't change that. They just made the game potentially more pleasant for 4/5 players in a match whilst also buffing the fifth player if he doesn't try to cheese gameplay loop.
This probably would have resulted in Killrates dropping for a time, because Killers that relied on those crutches would have lost a bit more for a time until they are at a level where they compete again. And honestly, even with those changes, Killer's could have just changed up their build and probably tunneled through it. No gen regression doesn't do much when you simply don't bring gen regression and instead bring chase perks to end chases soon, thus also applying more pressure anyways. Most people just didn't think that far and immediately grabbed their pitchforks, since they know BHVR will bend.
Same thing happened with Fog Vials, which got them nerfed to the point where it nerfed survivor as a whole (even if just by a little bit), since they now clutter the bloodweb, chests and nerf item related perks like Plunderer's or heck, even Dramaturgy. Now instead of potentially getting a medkit you get a useless fog vial, how nice. Funnily enough, other systems like the Anti Go Next and Anti AFK were just pushed through, even if it had the same False Positives that people were complaining about with the Anti-Tunneling. Stuff like this shows a potential bias more than anything.
Also, survivors are called survivors for a reason, not "victims". Maybe that's how you see it, but that is not what they are called by the game, or what they should be treated like by the devs.8 -
But it hits both sides. BHVR’s tuning more and more for casuals and brand-new players. You can see it in Ghoul’s design, in the Clown changes, and now in Myers/Sadako.
So y, it’s dumb. No ez mode — for either side. People should learn the game without a pile of freebies.
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Since when did tunneling, slugging and camping count as "skillful" play?
If you can't outsmart your opponent, you'd resort to cheap tactics, is that how you see "better players" on the killer side?
In any case, that should 100% count as an L for the killer player.
Skillful play on the other hand is outsmarting your opponents, without having to resort to cheese tactics.
You can't really compare DBD to other PvP games, since for the most part both parties in that situation would be duking it out on a level playing field.14 -
No it is not factual. The facts are that killers kill at rates above 60% and survivors escape at rates below 40%. In the tiny microcosm of the elite SWF vs non elite killer, the escape rate gets slightly closer to 50% on average. This has been true for every data dump behavior has ever done. Just because 0.000001% of survivors buck that trend doesn't mean game balance should be changed to fix that group.
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campen tunneln und sluggen it’s totally legit tool for the killer to react.
.. to quote myself:
To squads that I rush you from bad positions, ignore macro, run across the map with bad pathing, and play over-aggressive—second-chance perks stacked on top. And then I expect every reactive tool to be taken from you, because you shouldn’t be the killer—you should politely overlook everything I’m doing
We’re talking the killer’s base pressure tools vs survivors’ baseline tools: tight teamplay, clean bodyblocks, gen greed, position/control, winning zones — basically the macro that defines good play on both sides
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I guess I was just hoping they'd make tweaks to the one they have now for the hooks required and then go from there and refine it with each patch with the data they'd get on live. I was really looking forward to the fresh hook incentives, I was also hoping killer queues would get shorter.
Do we know if the deadzone QoL is still going live? I loved the new locker placements etc for playing Dredge, I seen they started to put some in corners etc, and it'd be nice for head on also. Borgo is the main map I hope has been changed.4 -
Don't let anyone bait you into posting your stats. It'll just get twisted in whatever way they want the argument to go regardless. Your ideas should stand on their own and they can agree or disagree based on that.
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Yeah at least console players could taste it too, and then we can give feedback on it for a healthy changes, devs acted cowardly here
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so true hun, I play 2v8 non stop since it's release and sad to see it's gone in few days😭
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They don't say its the most balanced. They say its survivor sided 🤣
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Genuinely survivors haven’t had anything nice or helpful as long as I can remember and I’ve been playing for more than half a decade now. This update was finally going to make solo queue a bit more tolerable and they spoiled it. And the new killer is awful power wise design is good though I was looking forward to playing her. This is the worst PTB/ Update I’ve ever seen since I first got the game.
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Please explain how the official stats show that every killer wins more than 50% of the time. Are you talking about the kill rate? Because that is not the same thing as win rate. The average kill rate is 60%, which means on average, the most common outcomes are 2-3K, with 2K (which is a draw for the killer) being more common than 3K. Draws are more common than wins for the average killer.
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If these changes went live, someone said on tiktok that survs will basically see an uptake on S-A tier killers in most of their lobbies. The same killers that a lot of us cry about. There would be no diversity in the lobbies when it comes to killers because either killer mains would play better tier killers, or they would simply stop playing. Lets face it- this update would have killed everything below A tier on killers.
This is a reality to anyone who doesnt main high tiers (blight, billy, drac, spirit). Slugging or tunneling is used as a tactic to apply pressure to the enemy team if the killer cannot do it via gen regression/pressure. One chase can determine the outcome of a match if the chased surv knows what they are doing.
It sucks to be tunneled or slugged. We all know. The age old argument of "there are perks in the game" is a valid point. There are so many perks in this game that help/ hinder tunneling or slugging. Use them. Stop being dramatic. If you are getting tunneled or slugged almost every game, either its a skill issue, your gameplay, or you are the 1% unfortunate enough to have these types of killers.
I play surv just as much as i do killer. Let me tell you, about 5% of my games consist of tunneling or slugging. My go to build was DH, dejavu, we're gonna make it, and iron will. If i was being tunneled or chased right after hook, my DH would come into play. After a killer hit me with it, they'd leave me because it's essentially a waste of time to chase me even more.
People should start adapting to how matches are played. Getting tunneled? Try anti- tunneling perks. Getting slugged? Try an anti slug build. I promise you you won't be needing it cause games don't consist of tunnelers/sluggers ALL THE TIME. This is the only way this game will get better. Doing the same thing with the same builds and crying about what side bhvr caters to isn't gonna solve balancing issues, let alone the "hand holding." The definition of insanity is doing something the same every time and expecting something to be different. You want change? Be the change.
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Game is balanced when killer wins to be honest that is what I think when I play killer. I don't play it to lose.
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They downvoting you cause you are on target LMAO
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That shown to be untrue many times. Most often killer either wins 3K/4K or loses getting 0K/1K. Matches most often snowball to one side advantage. So the win rate might as well be same as kill rate 60% if not higher for killer.
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Thats exactly what this patch has been. Spot on
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this x100000000
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You're smoking what the devs were when they made this patch. 6. 1 is the closest killer ever got to being the stronger role, and since then, each update has only been in favor of survivors who are already the power role. Most recently seen with the QOL initiative changes, these ones making any form of consecutive hooking punished for when in most cases its necessary to tunnel at 2-1 gens. What this update should've stopped was extreme tunneling that was being done with no gen progress, the killer simply doing it cus they wanted to be annoying and get a reaction. Survivor has been the power role since the games launch, just not on a massive scale compared to nowadays.
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this is probably the 3rd or 4th time in dbd history where a change was made for killers lol, and all the others survivors got?
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Theres nothing easy about tunneling if you actually help your teammates, which is exactly what this update was making unnecessary. You could've just left your unhooked teammate to fend for themselves the entire time cus they can last ages now, even when almost all gens are done. No need to hittake or shoulder them or anything, cus basekit anti tunnel was buffed far too much and killers get punished when they finally catch the survivor when they desperately need someone out. This update should've only prevented extreme cases of tunneling, peoppe who do it before 2 gens, not because they need to, but because they want to. That just hurts killer as a whole, not just people who extreme tunnel.
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Enjoy your long queues.
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Yeah it definitely got twisted. Oh, your recent survivor matches are bad? It's not because survivor is rough, it's because you suck. But your recent killer matches are good? It's not because killer is easier, it's because you're lying about tunneling and slugging. Actually no, those must be someone else stats.
It was totally ridiculous.
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The average
killrate is 60%, which means on average, the most common outcomes are 2-3K, with 2K (which is a draw for the killer) being more common than 3KThis is NOT how you calculate winrate from killrate and has been debunked ad nauseam. It has to stop spreading.
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Nothing easy about tunneling if you help your teammate lol.
So wait? Do we stick on gens to punish the killer for tunneling for the win? Or are we throwing our bodies in the way to stop the tunnel? Trust me ive done both. The outcome to both is the same which is miserable.
Once a killer targets the weakest link you can do nothing as their teammate.
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I’m not trying to calculate a win rate. I understand that win rate is a totally different thing. I’m explaining what the 60% kill rate means about the average outcome of all games in terms of kills and escapes. If someone wants to point me to official BHVR data showing the “win rate” for each side, I’m happy to listen and draw different conclusions based on the data.
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Doesn't change that it absolutely, pertinently -does not- work like that.
2Ks are, far and away, the least likely outcome, not the most likely.
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Where is the data to show that 2ks are the least likely outcome? I’ve never seen BHVR post that kind of data before. Maybe I just missed it
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Check Nightlight.
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Nightlight is not even close to a reliable data source. It’s self-reporting and a very small sample size.
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But unless you can prove the dataset contains impossible matches, it is a valid dataset that disproves your theory. Its existence proves your assertion that a 60% KR predominantly produces 2Ks baseless.
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Not my video but very insightful
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I feel this way too. It's way easier to do things to help lower MMR Survivors and Killers to become at least average at the game. I can think of ways BHVR could help my teams out, but for whatever reason they're just no doing any of them (as well as now putting anti-tunnel and anti-slug on the back burner).
But I'm never, ever going to reach the tippy top of high MMR, no matter how long I play for. So why would BHVR balance the game for the very best if most players will never, ever get there? The top guys will take care of themselves and will always find ways to adapt, no matter what BHVR do. That's why they're up there, after all.
BHVR knew the systems were over tuned for high level play, that's why they can be turned off in custom matches.
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They're totally passive too. You can have rates well above or well below the average week-to-week. None of it matters any more than the amount of upvotes or downvotes you get on any given post, but people will hold those in high regard as well.
Top-down balancing could be fine in other PVP games, but I don't think it's viable in asymmetrical ones like DBD. It's just a very different kind of experience. Like you said, the majority suffers so that the most powerful players don't get too powerful regardless of how many of them there are and will ever be. I don't think the solution is to nerf them or to keep necessary buffs in check. I don't even know that it's solely matchmaking's fault either, since other systems with totally random results seem to offer more dynamic trials.
Whatever the ideal solution ends up being, this patch was headed in the right direction I think. We'll see if that sticks when it comes back around.
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I just went on Nightlight and uploaded some matches from random endgame screenshots I found on Google. According to Nightlight, I now have a 100% escape rate.
Do you still really want to stand behind your position that this is a valid data source that we and the devs should use to draw conclusions about game balance with?-6
