Could we fix this thing with Mage Hand...
…where survivors just stand at the pallet you just lifted and throw it in your face again before you can actually attack? This is silly and I thought you guys made changes specifically to address this but apparently its still not working like this. Just have the hand hold the pallet for like half a second longer after lifting it or something.
Survivors can already counterplay by making a read and making another lap around a loop. This other counterplay I have an issue with is just way too much in their control, and doesn't even require a read.
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Mage Hand doesn't need to be any more like manual scamper than it already is
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Mage hand has an item that counters it and survivors can counter it by making a read. This is a situation that is 100% in the control of the survivor, and the devs even tried to fix it but didn't a while ago. And also lifting up a pallet means it can potentially be used again. Mage Hand is not at all like scamper, not in practice, not in cost, not in counter.
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no no little timmy has to 100% be able to counter the killers power at all times (for people who havent realized this is sarcasm)
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Ah cool, so you can avoid the killer getting a hit for free by having an item that you're not guaranteed to get. Remind me why should you have to do anything to counter a hit that itself doesn't require any brain power to get?
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When I tried to play Vecna on PS4, it was like:
- spend a stupid amount of time fiddling in the clunky spell menu to select a spell
- pick Mage Hand before pallet has dropped
- input lag is so long that the survivor drops the pallet before the hand is summoned
- Mage Hand picks up the pallet
- now I lost a large amount of time in the spell menu and the survivor can throw the pallet on my head
And this is why I do not ever play Vecna.
Not sure this is relevant to the thread, I just want to regularly remind BHVR that Vecna's controls are garbage on console.
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<looks at Vecna's kill rate>
<opens a tiny violin case>
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What is this logic where because of the existence of an iri addon with its own downsides, which essentially completely changes the way a spell works, the base kit of said spell should thus be just a 100% counterable knowledge check with a 35 second cooldown?
Also the iri addon doesn't resolve the issue. The point of the spell is to be able to negate the effect of the pallet drop if timed properly, at the cost of having to make a read and the pallet being usable again. The iri addon just spends a bunch of time breaking the pallet, which means the pallet drop served its function. It just doesn't address the issue I'm referring to.
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You should have to try and counter any hit the killer is trying to get on you? be it with positioning, making a read, correct timing or a direct dodge, depending on which is relevant to what the killer is doing at any given time.
Mage Hand requires a read on the killer's part and its timing is very tight. When it's used to block pallets it's tight, I mean. When it lifts a pallet, there is no timing because if the survivor passes the knowledge check, they can just drop it again in your face before you're physically able to perform any actions. Luckily most survivors don't pass this knowledge check, but that's not a good thing either. This also rewards pre-dropping, which if we're talking about things that "don't require any brain power" is pretty high up there. And like I said, mage hand has the inherent cost that it causes a pallet to be usable again. It is not comparable to scamper and it must be used carefully or a good survivor can punish the hell out of you for its misuse.-2 -
I cannot imagine how hard it must be to control Vecna with a controller. Even with mouse and keyboard it can sometimes be obnoxious.
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Mage Hand doesn't require any effort on the killer's part. Literally all you have to do is use it to block a pallet as a surv runs towards it and you get a free hit depending on the tile, whatever timing is required is not precise whatsoever. Survivors being able to drop the pallet on your face again is exactly how it should be because otherwise getting a hit would be completely free and objectively comparable to scamper, and just because it's a version of scamper that resets a pallet doesn't make it a good idea. You can say it's not comparable to scamper all you want but it's simply not true
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All of Vecna's spells are counterable. This is not about FoTD or Fly, which have their own ups and downs.
The base kit spell would still be counterable even if the survivor couldn't redrop it before you could move again.The survivor could make a read that you are gonna use mage hand to lift the pallet, so they don't drop it, you just hold it, slow yourself down, they make distance. You could make a read that they will not drop the pallet and run through, or you could fake your power, but if they read your bluff they can drop the pallet and you lose distance. This is good gameplay. it requires both sides to make a read on what the other is doing to do at a tyle.
The current gameplay is: Survivor passes knowledge check = survivor wins 100%. I don't think it should work like this. Right now, if the survivor doesn't pass the knowledge check they follow the model above which works just fine…. all I want is for this one 100% guaranteed in the survivor's favor knowledge check to not be a thing. That's it.-1 -
I like how you can just say things that are just untrue and just like pretend it's how things work.
Whatever. If you can just say things, then so can I. Mage Hand must be used at precise times because it's a short enough amount of time that if you miscalculate your distance or you misread what the survivor is going to do, you get punished. I've seen it happen when watching Vecna mains that are better than me. I have experienced it myself when playing Vecna which is my second most played killer ever. It's just evidently the case no matter how much you wanna pretend it isn't. I'm not gonna argue that it's as precise of a Deathslinger shot through a hole, or that Vecna mains are here having to do advanced calculus…this is a silly videogame which usually doesn't require utmost mechanical precision on either side. But the fact of the matter is, the timing is tight, it's not as free as you say.
It would still not be equivalent to scamper because the pallet is still reusable and survivors can still make reads and have good positioning to avoid getting hit if mage hand lifts the pallet. It resetting the pallet doesn't "make it a good idea", it just gives it a significant enough cost that the Vecna player will have to weight their choices and the risk of using it, which scamper doesn't have at all. Also, it is heavily punished for misuse compared to scamper because Mage Hand has a 35 second cooldown and if you mistime or misread the situation the survivor gets distance. No other pallet skipping ability in the game has such a long cooldown. Not even pallet breaking abilities have such a long cooldown and those come with the added benefit of actually breaking the pallet.
And all the discussion as to whether it's good or bad or scamper or whatever else aside. The fact of the matter is the developers of the game intentionally added an interaction of this spell with dropped pallets in which the spell lifts up the pallet. This means, the interaction needs to have a purpose. If the interaction is made irrelevant by the survivor passing a single knowledge check, it means it's poorly designed, as it has no other purpose than to noob stomp. You wanna make it do something else entirely? That's a separate discussion, but as it is, lifting a pallet is pointless if survivors pass a knowledge check. This, in my eyes, makes it poorly designed. And when something is poorly designed, it needs to get fixed, ideally.
Also, even despite all of this. The developers in a patch note literally said they increased the amount of time interactions are prevented when mage hand lifts a pallet. This is how they intend for it to work. It's just like bugged or something still. All my post was, was me basically going "Hey devs, this thing you said you wanted to do? Yeah, it still doesn't work like that. Can we get it done, please".-3 -
I don't have the numbers, so I don't know how long Vecna slows down, or how much the slowdown is. But I know from experience, both my own and from watching other Vecna players, it is enough to make a difference in several scenarios.
If you misread what the survivor is doing and they don't drop a pallet when you expected them to, they make a loop. If you cast mage hand too soon, they make the loop, if you cast it too late they can just drop the pallet on you and you have to waste time casting it or just break it, so they make distance. Especially if they have mage hand items, they gain haste on you.
What I am asking for is already something that works just fine for any survivor player who doesn't pass the knowledge check. They make a read, you make a read, if you miscalculate the distance, they get away with it. The change I'm asking for only applies in the very specific scenario where Vecna is close enough to the survivor to contest the pallet position.
If a survivor drops the pallet too soon, Vecna casts mage hand too soon, then the survivor drops again and that's that and that's how it should be. But it is silly that if a survivor just knows to stand at a pallet, you just physically cannot do anything and they can drop the pallet on you at no cost, and your spell was pointless.-2 -
I say things that are just untrue and pretend it's how thing work? You mean like this?
Hypocrite.
The timing is not tight at all, literally like I said, if you're behind a survivor, and they're about to reach a pallet, then you block it before they get to the other side then you get the hit. I can get multiple clips of me doing this if you don't believe me, because it's evidently the case no matter how much vecna mains wanna pretend it isn't so they can keep getting away with it.
Again, just because it resets a pallet in the process doesn't make it a good idea, as in, being able to get a free hit with zero effort isn't justified by it resetting a resource, it's bad gameplay design regardless. The cooldown doesn't justify it either, "get a free hit with zero skill but you reset a resource and can only do so every 35s," is not good game design, period.
I agree that if something is poorly designed it should be fixed, that's why it's crucial not to go from one bad design to one that's worse, which is what you're suggesting.
Also, just because they increased the amount of time that the pallet is blocked when lifting it doesn't mean it's "intend" for it to be impossible for a survivor to do what you're describing. They only increased it to 0.55s, which along with the lifting time of 0.5s, adds up to 1.05s, but the cooldown for mage hand lasts a whole 2 seconds. So just according to the objective numbers there's no reason you shouldn't be able to throw the pallet back down before you can attack, so this point of yours holds no value. Besides, according to that logic you must want them to fix Wesker hug tech. Maybe you really do, but I assume not since it seems like most people don't, so your logic is flawed.
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thats intentional i'm pretty sure- if you use mage hand on a dropped pallet you are merely just picking it back up for easy access instead of breaking it // if you use it on an upright pallet before the survivor plays the pallet drop animation, you block it from being dropped.
if the survivor drops it before you pick it up you will likely get stunned, if the survivor knows the counter play. it's a timing thing, rather than just spamming whenever and hoping for the best.
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