Krasue is what happens when they balance/design the game for spreading and committing to hooks.
I dont think I need to elaborate on what EXACTLY is wrong with her power. There is a lot. Most of that is fundamental that cant be solved with nerfs.
If you are here, you most definitely experienced how Krasue feels in chase. Either as or against, it doesnt matter, you can tell how cheap and uninteractive, yet brutally efficient she is.
They buffed her because they got stats and feedback from PTB with the "systems" that eradicated the necessary evil of this game's design that bottlenecks killers SPECIFICALLY from being like Krasue.
She is a killer made for an average casual dad with twenty children working 25/8 shifts killer player who is expected to get their 60% killrate, but having to win double-triple amount of chases for that. What did devs said on the stream? Oh yea, she is meant to be "scary hunter hunting survivors" or some other generic stuff that Im perceiving as "we went extra mile out of our way to make new killer unfair in chase because it's not fun for casual killers to be ran for 5 gens".
Krasue is COMPLETELY out of balance in the game design where killers have enough strategic agency to threaten survivors with tunnelling or slugging, moreover, Krasue's main (and basically only because everything else just doesnt work well) counterplay is taking hits, thus inadvertently encouraging killer to slug which doesnt work when killer isn't massively punished for doing so.
Designing / balancing killers the way Krasue was is a HORRIBLE mistake we're seeing play out LIVE.
Dead by Daylight isn't Alien Isolation or any other "scary" PvE horror game. The killer is NOT MEANT to be a juggernaut that instakills you on sight unless you press a button and waste a very VERY finite resource. The killer is NOT meant to be a dummy that plays "fair" giving players chances or being FORCED into giving them by some weird complex set of guardrails that tell you that you arent actually allowed to chase THIS survivor or you MUST pick THAT survivor or get massively penalized / give them massive buff.
If the game goes this direction, it turns into PvE like that however, except it would lack all the story and atmosphere that make or break such games.
All that would be left is a feeling of frustration of helplessness that you can't do anything the moment killer spots you and that your fast chases mean nothing because you cant stop gens.
Let's not break the game over the knee just so that killers like that can be "balanced". Let's not break what is already working with ACTUALLY fun and interactive killers like Wesker, Springtrap or Unknown. THESE are the killers that offer the best for both casual and competitive playerbase and they should be what the game is balanced around.
Comments
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Very true she is so broken, super unfun to vs, also they like to tunnel for some reason because your infection doesn't go away when being hooked...
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the last part is very worrying, they didnt even bother to change that, knowing none of the systems go live yet.
this is either peak incompetence and lack of foresight or a deliberate set up so that when they try with these fundamentally flawed systems again next time, people won't argue anymore because there will be a scarecrow like her.
and like the thing is that she is going to be uninteractive, unfun slop anyways, the only difference being she wouldn't be able to tunnel with the systems, but it doesnt matter when the gameplay quality will rapidly descend.
they will never make another springtrap or any similar interactive / balanced killer ever again if they want to sell them well and if they do make such mistake, this killer will have to be absurdly overbuffed to ever stay relevant in that tunnelling free game design.
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what killers should bhvr think of when creating fun killers that are strong enough to hold actually work but also fun to play as AND against? (killers like demo who are seen as fair SUCK to play since demo currently is very weak)
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what?
demo is outdated, but he is a very good example of the BALANCED and FAIR killer. he is on the weaker end, but he represents the healthy balance between "killer has options" and "survivors have options".
the choices he and survivors make actually matter and he isnt insanely oppressive/OP to be unfair when he expresses HIS agency in the match by tunnelling or slugging.
the problem with him is that he is, well, outdated and powercrept by newer better killers even in the same jack of all trades niche even if these killers arent remotely harder to use. He is also massively powercrept by killers like blight, nurse, ghoul and now krasue who the game is BEING BALANCED AROUND, resulting into killers like him being inherently obsolete in the absurdly oppressive survivor perk meta made to keep up with S tier killers.
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Its kinda crazy that they really didnt learn their lesson from Kaneki and the mess that they brought on with him. Jail tech being gone is nice, still a very strong killer and they gave him counter play…. after like 5-6 months of changes
Springtrap was everywhere but he has actual good counterplay and skill expression in his kit regardless if he doesnt fill what many people were expecting of a FNAF killer at the time design wise.
Testing the Krause on the PTB with the Anti-Tunnel changes was a massive mistake on BHVR's part and its something they shouldnt do ever again, you keep new killer changes and massive system changes seperate from each other testing wise, or you get this mess currently.
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Damn, beat me to it, and said it better than I could...
The new benchmark for DBD is very concerning... Survivors got so much stronger, but no one noticed because of new A and S tiers non stop for the past year and a half.
We live in a world where Huntress is no longer considered A tier... AFTER getting buffed.
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yeah, Im the kind of a person who was dying on a hill that xenomorph is A tier if you're good, but looking at all that, yea, nah, that's just a different dimension of power.
and these are "easy" and "medium" difficulty killers so far. We have yet to see their vision of the "S tier" killer with that benchmark.
They might unironically try to powercreep nurse next time.
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Can we please give it more time for people to learn more about her before asking for nerfs?
Last time when Springtrap were released so many people telling he's broken and needs nerf, then a month pass somehow people agree he's just mid-tier.
I think the same's going with Krasur. IMO she's about just as strong as Singularity, only easier to play. If you think Singularity is okay, she's probably okay too.
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I would usually agree with this philosphy, but Springtrap most people would agree was strong, but needed add-on nerfs before release (Celeberation Poster was a disgusting add-on from the PTB), but the rest of his kit was good and actually had skill expression and counterplay baked into his kit.
This on the other hand…. no I think she needs a hotfix, the only counterplay to her rn is body blocking which uhh in solo que is not gonna happen, and we both know that. Giving the killer Hug tech, nerfing mushrooms and quick cooldowns regarding her power was just… the wrong move, espically testing with the Anti-tunnel changes on the PTB (which likely affected BHVR's internal numbers, leading to her buffs)
At minimum, infection needs to be removed on hook and Hug-tech needs to be removed, its nerfs her ability to tunnel and makes it so you can counterplay on loops atleast, then i think we can wait and see how she looks.
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Honestly, the only thing I've found overpowered is the flight. It can be used mid-chase, with no slowdown, recovery, and no need full energy means she'll always right on your back. It's like Spirit without charge time, no need to wait for fully charged, and she can see you directly.
I played some games where I purposely not spamming it mindlessly, and the chase becomes much harder to get downs and hits.
Anything else is fine for me though.
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The Flight is really strong, but her ability to just slide around for a free hit is just ridiculous, especially on small loops.
Honestly the biggest thing i was confused from BHVR about was the nerf to mushrooms, they really didnt need to get nerfed at all but they did anyway.
I think if you just take Bamboozle on her, there is like nothing you can do on loops (I think there are even people saying she can hit over pallets? which if true with all of this baked in rn is just… yeah)
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That sliding actually needs some practice, and the penalty of missing it is quite huge too, as the recovery is really long. If you remove her sliding she'll be very clunky to play, like Wesker that stuck at the slightest edge.
Like I said, the flight is what makes her strong, because even if she missed, she can immediately catch up to you.
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I think the issue was bhvr took qol issues and slapped buffs to them. I said during the ptb all they needed to do was give her qol adjustments for the clunky parts of her kit and see how she does. But it's obvious the entire ptb was balanced around the anti tunneling system they added and the devs failed to consider the changes being made without the system in place.
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She wouldnt become much more fun to face if they didnt also buff her.
She would still remain a killer who can just scamper every pallet, chase you down with 4.8 / 7.0 ability and hit you with extended attack reach.
The only difference would've been that MAYBE in some loops she would be clunky enough to be forced to swap. MAYBE.
but it's still same uninteractive slop gameplay with no meaningful skill input from the killer.
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the pallet ability was added live.
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Oh im not saying that she takes no skill, but once you do you get things down… there is very little survivors can do against a good Krasue in her current state
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but shoudnt we reward a person for learning a character?
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Exactly. At least wait until Friday, THEN nerf her. If that's long enough for the PTB, it should be good here.
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They should be rewarded… but not like where she is in her current state, where survivors have no agency around loops
Even nurse has solid counter play (Break LoS, doubleback, and then hold W to confuse the player, be unpredictable.)
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1np444b/this_goes_out_to_the_devs/
This clip kinda just showcases, like everything. No cooldown after her spit, she can get a free hit. Flies over the pallet and than can hit her Beyond the pallet after vaulting like Xeno (you can even see last second that she finishes the vault animation, so her hitbox is on the other side of the pallet)
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From recent killers I would say Unknown and Animatronic went well…
Otherwise most fun killer to play as and against? I would guess Wesker. Decent chase and mobility, but he has his limits you can use while playing against him.Killers who ignore basically anything you can do as survivor while being easy to play are simply not going to be popular to play against.
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Never balance roles in game around casual players
Another non skill killer who were buffed because of non skill PTB
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i mean, either way they were balanced around bad / casual players, it was just a matter of HOW was that accomplished.
casuals cried too hard about being bullied and tunnelled/slugged, well, here we go, this is the first half of that.
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Every killer that was released after Hound Master is designed for new players only and have very little of progression. But ofc they overbuffed them by numbers or have extremely braindead mechanics. And it’s 4th killer (if don’t count Myers rework that has same principle) already that shares this tendency. I don’t even share widely accepted “Animatronic is fine” point just because he isn’t op. His teleports are very lazy mechanic and his main power instead of punishing u after missplay encourage with 4.6 speed and haste add-ons. I despise such approach
Just because they failed to teach players how to play the game and separating casualty from enthusiasts... It's so lazy giving broken toys as crutches only to claim about some need of anti tunnel later. And they doing same for survivors. Let’s create broken concept of anti tunnel, to justify buffs for already strong killer. I don't appreciate this from both sides no matter what. Killers should stay strong, but they HAVE TO be designed around player being able to do a little until he actually master it. Like Oni, Huntress, PHead, Artist. Or stay casual, but mid as Nemesis with low progression from the start.
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Animatronic is in fact fine because all the "noob friendly" stuffs don't come at the cost of agency of the survivors.
He gets 4.6 for throwing axe regardless if he misses because he shouldn't be stuck as 4.4 for 7-10 seconds without power when any other 4.4 has access to their power almost immediately or have 4.4 due to small collision and being their own power.
Doors can be as boring as you want, it doesnt matter in this context.
He doesnt get like "axe autoaim" to help people who dont want to bother learning aiming or some other insane mechanic like ghoul or krasue do.
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It doesn't cancel the fact that his haste add-ons encourages missing with power or teleports done in messy way without actual interactivity and meaning. On PTB, for example, with haste incentives and specific build he were able to zoom around map and getting free downs just because high haste can deny any skill from survivor and make every 50/50 pallet trash. The way how they artificially limited his special ability to justify turning him m1 killer for this few seconds just work because they recycled another killer's ability. Not a rework, not a new take, but a recycle with an artificial limitation and a crutch in the form of speed.
I can’t support such approach just because he is new player friendly killer and not op, as I told before.
Nothing bad about the players themselves, and I don't experience anything unpleasant towards people who main them. I appreciate when his main trying to use max potential of m2. I still enjoy playing against this killer and I’m not some dc fan just because I saw principles I don’t like. For me it's just a matter of how BHVR did the character design, and how they keep doing this. Krasue doesn't have free hit scan as Ghoul, her power just wasn't limited like Animatronic’s one with one axe only.
If you remove the artificial limitations on Springtrap's ability usage, giving him 4.6 speed after miss will seriously break the game. Because the core design is poor. Just like Krasue's. Her problem can be solved with literally one principle: switch the flight to a different button, and make her whip a special ability rather than a basic attack. That's it. Another limitation as a crutch for a problematic design approach
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It doesnt matter.
It's fine if he gets options for alternative and potentially easier playstyle.
You are not seeing the forest behind the trees here.
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It doesnt matter.
Why?
It's fine if he gets options for alternative and potentially easier playstyle.
casuals cried too hard about being bullied and tunnelled/slugged
So when survivors gets alternative and potentially easier gameplay from system that encourages their misplay — it’s bad, yes? But when killers…?
Do you understand that you can't have your cake and eat it too? You either support simplified and primitive gameplay for everyone, or remove the ability to cheese at the beginning and force player to progress through skill only. U can’t tell “well, u have a skill issue” after switching to some build or character who is relatively easier to play from the start, and provide you unfair advantage towards survivors who also may just be newbie and start the game. That’s imbalance
Unlike the tunnel, which is a way to play and an approach, haste is an in-game mechanic driven by numbers that is straightforward exploitable.
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Even if she was balanced for that kind of game balance design, it would still be horribly unfun if implemented within such a system.
There is nothing fun about getting easy downs due to an OP power in order to force quick chase times. or going down quick with no counterplay options because BHVR decides punishing killer mistakes is unfair.
Designing / balancing killers the way Krasue was is a HORRIBLE mistake we're seeing play out LIVE.
Their design and balance direction as of late is just terrible in general for the game and will lead to bad outcomes. I'm deeply worried for the future of the game at this point. Killer powers and map rebalances have been utter garbage as of late.
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Let's not break what is already working with ACTUALLY fun and interactive killers like Wesker, Springtrap or Unknown. THESE are the killers that offer the best for both casual and competitive playerbase and they should be what the game is balanced around.
This 1000%. It makes me very sad that people think springtrap is weak only because the other killers being released are so broken. Like literally the game would actually be better right now if ghoul and krasue didn't exist.
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of course she would be unfun, that's the courtesy of the "killer is somehow supposed to win twice as many chases for 60% killrates" design mentality.
the only way BHVR can maintain expected killrates, fair killers and no tunnelling/slugging is if they drastically nerf generator times, because killer cannot afford to spread hooks if they are not crushing survivors in every chase.
or to just watch every killer play endgame builds, that will also work.
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powercrept before his own release, yea
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Not to mention the three slowdowns and dissolution, so any chance you had at any counterplay whatsoever is gone. It is honestly so miserable to play against her.
She has all of these things going for her:
- Mobility
- Third-person Camera View
- Disorienting Terror Radius (due to the bells) - this is an accessibility issue that was overlooked entirely.
- The Lack of punishment if she misses.
- Her misaligned hitbox allows her to hit you over a downed pallet.
- Her lunge is massive, to the point where it ignores dead hard (This is probably a bug, as I've seen people dead hard go white from endurance and immediately hit the floor).
- The lack of cooldown from transforming to being able to land a hit.
- The lack of cooldown from a basic whip attack to another attack.
- The fact that she can vault without punishment is due to her mobility, which counters the slowing effect of vaulting.
- Lack of cooldown from spitting and missing.
- Lack of cooldown from spitting to transforming.
- Landing a spit is a guaranteed 100% infection, with the bonus of infecting multiple people at 100% in a single shot.
- Survivors on hooks are infected upon being unhooked, if they were infected prior, making them very easy to tunnel.
- Low mushroom spawns - sometimes, to remove infected, you have to cross the entire map.
- Holding a mushroom gives you no advantage whatsoever, because if you get infected, you can't eat it before you go down or get hit again. After all, the effect takes far too long to take effect.
- She can hit over low tiles with her whip, even if you are crouched behind them.
- No collision, so she doesn't get punished for missing a whip attack.
And if anyone says "Learn the counterplay…" would you care to explain the counterplay?
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Yeah, people who think she has any actual counterplay are delulu.
The only counterplay is praying she has been dropped on the head or pays zero attention to what is going on.
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yup and then they'll use her and similar killers as justification for these systems.
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Why is it that people should have "wait and see" for the phase 2 changes, but survivors can instantly know if Springtrap addons need to be changed and didn't need to "wait and see"?
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Cause we tested Springtrap on the PTB and alot of people said his add-ons were really strong (Especially Remember Me! poster on PTB release, disgusting add-on lets be frank), but that was the only issue with him was his add-ons, rest of his kit was actually fine and well designed
I would say the Krasue was too on the PTB, they just had to clean up some bugs and stuff…. but instead they did this… and OTR got nerfed… and shes one of the best tunnelers in the game now. They went too hard in one direction and shes over-tuned very clearly and she needs some nerfs cause its geniuenly a terrible experince for solo survivors (hell even with SWF, you gotta play like your playing against the twins basically, always pairing up and someone is forced on bodyblock duty in chase, thats two people not doing gens)
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Wish they remembered the infection issue wesker had on release. Because due to his infection not going away when hooked, you just got tunneled out. After they tweaked things they made him feel way better to play against and play in my opinion.
I think she can still be fixed, but if they wait too long to fine tune her ability and infection, I am afraid she might be in the perma unfun to play against category with ghoul. It sucks cause we were actually doing pretty well with new releases like Springtrap, he was pretty well received, but they went really bit the bullet and went overboard with her.2 -
If they nerf it now, they'll just have to buff it again after the revised anti-snowball effects go in. So quit hooting, hollering and crying like kids in a day-care and just chill out.
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Or they can just nerf it and NOT release the systems that will require every new killer to be this mind numbingly boring slop.
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yeah, too bad springtrap is simply unfit for the game they're trying to make around failures like krasue or ghoul
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Krasue apparently is also Flashlight Save immune if she looks into the sky in head form
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1nqzyq7/bug_krasue_immune_to_flashlight_saves/
This killer man…
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this is luckily a bug, but this is just salt on the wound atp yea
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This is what I am keep saying for last 3 years. If survivors want killer be able to do nothing but chase different survivors on different sides of the map – be ready to get Krasue and Nurse level of killers. Killers with 20 seconds chase no matter how good or bad survivor is. And it will be uninteractive hell and total reduction in need for skill for both sides.
I don't think even 10% of playerbase understands it, but when we suddenly will find ourselves in the game where chase as interactive as doing gen, it will be too late. But at least it will be casual party game that survivors wanted.
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They just want dash and easily dodgeable projectile killers, for forever. It's horribly boring and killing killer design.
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How does nurse power creep demo when she came out before him? That's not how power creep works.
It seems like you're advocating for all killers to be high C tier. Demo sucks. Against good survivors his shred is just a zoning tool rather than something you use to get hits outside of animation locks because it's piss easy to crouch tech and dodge at max range. I've had games where I didn't even have time to set up portals because gens got done so fast and it was back to back chases constantly.
Like if demo is your gold standard for what killers should be then you've got problems. You want pre-6.10 queues for survivor.
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no, im advocating for all killers to be not stronger than high A tier killers (Singularity / Spirit level) and no weaker than low B tier (Knight / Demo level).
Demo is a solid killer if you're good, it doesnt mean he isnt outdated or cant be buffed, but he is a good showcase of the lower end of killer power/difficulty.
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the biggest irony is that it backfires first and foremost on these casual players because when killers will be forced to play fair on unfair killers, there wont be any skill issues or self regulations with spreading hooks on balanced killers.
better players will be better.
in a very messed up way, the game will become even more competitive.
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It won't be more competitive, there won't be any skill on both sides. No need for survivor and killer be good in chase, because chase only limited by killer's cooldowns. No need for survivors make decisions or risk something, because their butts are always safe due to 500 mechanics, no matter how many mistakes they made. Competition of what, who press m1 button faster and bring stronger perks?
It will be another F13, extremely casual rainbow poop party game, where at some point you need to accept that you are dead on timer, if killer sees you. But hey, killer can't tunnel you off hook, can't left you on the ground, can't defend hook, can't defend gens for too long, can't punish your mistakes, can't create any risk situation, can't defend himself in some situations.
Literally survivors' dream they asked for years, isn't it? Sadly in reality it will be DBD's end, because this is not what we play this game for.-2 -
well competitive in a sense there won't be "chill" gameplay anymore.
people will be forced into playing efficiently.
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