Would this fix DBD’s tunneling and camping problem?
Hello,
There's a TLDR at the end.
DBD suffers from two big problems:
DBD Problem 1: Survivors can complete their objective much faster than the killer can complete his or hers.
DBD Problem 2: If a killer tunnels or camps, there’s not much the survivors can do about it.
To address Problem 1, the devs have said they’re looking into creating a secondary objective for survivors, which would be great. Some people have suggested having to find generator parts, which sounds good to me.
However, if nothing is done to address Problem 2, then the fix to Problem 1 would make killers who camp or tunnel even stronger. Right now the only reliable solution to a camper or tunneler is to power through the gens. There’s enough time to do that. But if there’s a secondary objective, the camped or tunneled survivor will die before the gens + secondary objective are done.
My proposed solution: When a survivor is hooked for the first time, the Entity immediately kills them. Their body is transported to a random location on the map marked my a gravestone that only the survivors can see (like scratch marks only appear for killers). The location must be at least 40 meters from survivors. The grave’s aura is revealed to the survivors (unless they are blinded).
For Survivors, Graves have three different stages. Stages 1 and 2 each have a duration of 60 seconds:
Stage 1: On the gravestone is the word: HERE
A Survivor in Stage 1 can be resurrected by another Survivor or attempt to resurrect themselves.
Each attempt has a 4% chance to succeed and will cost 16.666% (or 20 seconds) of the remaining Health Bar.
A survivor can go to that grave to resurrect the player, which takes the same amount of time as unhooking a survivor currently does.
Once the Health Bar drops to 50%, the Survivor will automatically enter Stage 2.
Stage 2: When a survivor is hooked for the second time, the same thing happens, except on the gravestone are the words: HERE LIES
A Survivor in Stage 2, also known as the "Struggle Phase," can still be resurrected by another Survivor but will have to struggle against the Entity trying to permanently kill them. Once the Health Bar drops to 0% or if the Survivor stops struggling, they will enter Stage 3.
Stage 3: When a survivor is hooked for the third time, the same thing happens, except on the gravestone are the words: HERE LIES (DAVID).
When this happens, the survivor can no longer be resurrected; they are dead and out of the game. The killer can also see the gravestone now.
Problem with idea: 9 perks would need to be reworked.
Solution: Most of them can easily be reworked
Reworked Survivor Perks:
Kindred -- While you're in a grave, 1 random Survivor's/All Survivors'/All Survivors' and the Killer's (in an 8m radius around the gravesite) Aura(s) are revealed to all other Survivors.
Deliverance -- After resurrecting another survivor, the Perk activates.
You now can resurrect yourself. A successful Deliverance from a grave triggers the Broken Status Effect for 100/80/60 seconds.
Breakdown -- Any time you are resurrected, the hook nearest to the grave breaks and the Killer's Aura is shown to you for 4/5/6 seconds.
Borrowed Time -- After resurrecting a Survivor within the Killer's Terror Radius, for 15 seconds, any damage taken that would put the resurrected Survivor into the Dying State will instead apply the Deep Wound Status Effect. The Survivor has 10/15/20 seconds to Mend themselves.
We’ll Make It -- For each Survivor you resurrect, gain an additional 25/50/100 % speed increase to healing others, up to a maximum of 100% for 30/60/90 seconds.
Reworked Killer Perks:
Hex: Devour Hope: When a Survivor is resurrected, Devour Hope receives a Token.
Make Your Choice: When a Survivor resurrects another survivor, Make Your Choice triggers and applies the Exposed Status Effect on the resurrector for 40/50/60 seconds.
Monstrous Shrine: Would need a complete rework
Territorial Imperative: Would need to be buffed
TLDR -- Once survivors are hooked, they are killed and their bodies are now transported to graves where they need to be resurrected. 3 Hooks and they're dead. This new mechanic would only be applied when the devs add a secondary objective for survivors.
So what do you think? Would this fix the problem?
Comments
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It is quite an interesting and creative solution, BUT I feel as if it would take away from one of the themes of the game which is the meat hooks kill. It's a great solution and it sounds pretty fun but I just can't see the devs reworking the whole hook concept. It's a really cool idea though!!! I like it!!!
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You're talking about changing a core mechanic in the game. That's a big no-no. It changes the game completely.
A better solution is incentivize killers to leave the hook and go after someone else. There are a bunch of ways to do that, but you're only going to stop camping/tunneling by rewarding players that DO NOT do it. Anything you do to punish players that do it is nerf killers, because sometimes as killer you have to camp/tunnel to keep pressure. Case and point, I had a Trapper game earlier where I had to camp a Feng and then tunneled her off the hook (I downed the saver during the unhook, so it wasn't a pure tunnel). Only did it because they did 3 gens during that first chase, then did another while she was hooked. The one guy got so salty at me and I'm like "dude you guys rushed gens so what would you like me to do?" I had NOED too so I bet if I played fair and just let them proc NOED he would complain about that. Game ended in a 4k with 1 gen, I even hooked the third guy and took the chance on hatch and still found him before he found it.
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Thanks a lot @PhantomMask20763
I understand what you're saying @thesuicidefox; however, your 4K example (nice job btw) is only based on the current state of the game, where survivors have one objective. My solution would be paired with the devs adding a secondary objective for survivors, which they said they're looking into doing. Does that change your opinion at all?
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Your solution was actually proposed sarcastically by killer mains and even then I was in love with the idea.
What they said was that when they hook a survivor, the survivors should just be teleported to somewhere so that the other survivors can save him freely. It was, of course, sarcastic.
As @thesuicidefox said, meat hooks mean a lot to the devs and there are places like the basement. Your solution kills the entire concept of the basement which is a big no no unfortunately.
I do agree with you on that you want this solution to be implemented when the devs add secondary objectives but we need to figure out what will happen to the basement etc.
It is true that the killers do not need to think about survivors' fun but the devs clearly have to. For me, camping and tunneling are the most boring things in DbD for survivors, and long loops that you can do nothing about or gen rushing are the most frustrating and boring things for killers. Both should be addressed and both sides should be happy at the end with the changes.
I do think that your solution would fix the camping and tunneling issue but I don't see this coming as a feature unfortunately. I will be very happy if I am wrong though.
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@MongByeolBuddies said:
Thanks a lot @PhantomMask20763
I understand what you're saying @thesuicidefox; however, your 4K example (nice job btw) is only based on the current state of the game, where survivors have one objective. My solution would be paired with the devs adding a secondary objective for survivors, which they said they're looking into doing. Does that change your opinion at all?
No because sometimes as survivor you need to gen rush. It goes both ways. If you add a second objective it won't actually fix the problem. It just makes the game even harder for new players, and veteran players will find ways to rush that objective too. At best it will add like 30 seconds or something equal to a short Ruin. It won't have the impact people think it will. And like you say, it makes tunneling/camping that much better if a killer decides to do it. Now you have to change how hooks work. You are fundamentally changing the game in a very drastic way for what will likely be very little net benefit.
I've suggested before that gen speed should have some sort of limit, or there should be some mechanic in place that prevents survivors from doing 3 gens at once to force them to slow down (in such a way that it only affects the absolute fastest gen rushers, ie. high ranks). Then add incentive for killers to leave hooks to get fresh chases/hooks on other survivors. That's a better solution because you aren't changing the game drastically. It's still very much the same as before, just more fair to both sides.
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Let's face it: As long as the current hook systems exists, there will always be camping and tunneling, no matter how high any incentive/reward/punishment might be.
In order to remove camping/tunneling entirely, you need to do something along the lines what the op is suggesting. Just like in shooters, the killed/hooked surv needs to spawn on another part of the map. But that doesn't really erase the tunneling, only camping. To really get rid of tunneling, you'd have to make even more drastic steps: Get rid of hook phases and let survs respawn with full health.
I also see it from a realistic perspective: The current hook system is a super-super-core-core mechanic, the devs won't change it, at least as long as DbD is successful.
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Camping is caused by 2 things:
A. Being able to know a survivor's location. (Can't camp something if you don't know where it is.)
B. Any mechanic that makes hooking phases progress that is not based on a location-based mechanic that mandates a killer to be at a certain (variable)location guaranteed to be away from the hook.Tunnelling can only be solved by eliminating the gaps between hooking phases and survivor deaths.
With that in mind:Your post gets a lot right. The main problem with hooks currently is that there is a timer. A timer progresses. It's a hook phase progression system that doesn't care about location. This is inherently what causes camping.
If there had been something like: "You have to break a vessel to make people on a hook enter the next stage", then camping as a strategy with any validity would be impossible, since they have to be at a mandated position in order to progress things negatively for survivors.
You both eliminate the timer of the hooks (B) and you eliminate the killers innate knowledge of the survivor's location.
Thus it indeed solves camping.Now here's the art:
How do you make it conceptually fitting? Is indeed the grave-stone the right way to go? How randomly does it spawn? Does the grave-stone mechanic mimic the right type of hooking pressure the killer can cause without camping to avoid survivors from being immobile too long?So what do you think? Would this fix the problem?
Your solution ABSOLUTELY fixes the issue with camping. I also find the idea behind making the grave only visible to survivors very creative and helpful.
But the main issue sits within "the art"; A lot of things have been revolving around a certain state of the game, which is why any teleportation solution (A) often feels to foreign to people.
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I only read your tdlr tbh, do you explain if it's possible to camp the grave? Did you explain what will happen once the exit gates are powered? Because camping is absolutly necessary once all gens are done, otherwise its an free escape1
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@HavelmomDaS1 said:
I only read your tdlr tbh, do you explain if it's possible to camp the grave?He mentioned that the grave is only visible to survivors, similar to how scratch-marks are only visible to killers. You can camp the grave, but you wouldn't know you're camping it.
Did you explain what will happen once the exit gates are powered? Because camping is absolutely necessary once all gens are done, otherwise it's a free escape
He mentions that Gen times need to be slower as a result of killers no longer having access to (toxic/certain) strategies. If the killer isn't killing you with hooking near the end then indeed you'd be able to escape unless he finds you, but generally you have more time to kill people is what I get from the OP.
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Atleast this "no hook"-concept doesnt remove the forced survivor interaction.
But it removes any kind of timebased peessure of a survivor removal, unless you simply forgot to mention how long these graves stay interactable.
This concept as do other "no hook" concepts would also further make survivors ignore everything in favor of genrush... i mean "objectives rush"
What pressure is there if a survivor can ressurect instantly whem a grave spawns 5m next to another sirvivor.0 -
Awww, i gain Tokens slower on Devour Hope.
It's fine though, i wouldn't mind sacrificing that little bit if everyone else will have more fun.
Also: Wow! A buff to Blindness!0 -
@Delfador said:
I do agree with you on that you want this solution to be implemented when the devs add secondary objectives but we need to figure out what will happen to the basement etc.
That's a good point about the basement; I hadn't considered that, and I do like DBD's basement mechanic so it would be nice if they could stay dangerous. What do you think of this solution: If you are hooked in the basement, your grave is automatically in the basement. This would still allow camping and tunneling for survivors in the basement, but the trade-off is that it keeps the basement relevant and dangerous.
I do think that your solution would fix the camping and tunneling issue but I don't see this coming as a feature unfortunately. I will be very happy if I am wrong though.
Yeah, I'm with you. I doubt they would make a change this major, but I will also be happy if I am wrong.
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@Raptorrotas said:
But it removes any kind of timebased peessure of a survivor removal, unless you simply forgot to mention how long these graves stay interactable.Actually, I did forget to put that in the post. They will be the same as hooks -- 1 minute for each stage, with the first stage giving survivors a base 4 percent chance to resurrect themselves per attempt with a time penalty if they fail. I will update the post.
This concept as do other "no hook" concepts would also further make survivors ignore everything in favor of genrush... i mean "objectives rush"
What pressure is there if a survivor can ressurect instantly whem a grave spawns 5m next to another sirvivor.
Your point about graves spawning next to survivors is a valid one. I'll update the post to say graves must spawn at least 40 meters from survivors.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@HavelmomDaS1 said:
I only read your tdlr tbh, do you explain if it's possible to camp the grave?He mentioned that the grave is only visible to survivors, similar to how scratch-marks are only visible to killers. You can camp the grave, but you wouldn't know you're camping it.
Did you explain what will happen once the exit gates are powered? Because camping is absolutely necessary once all gens are done, otherwise it's a free escape
He mentions that Gen times need to be slower as a result of killers no longer having access to (toxic/certain) strategies. If the killer isn't killing you with hooking near the end then indeed you'd be able to escape unless he finds you, but generally you have more time to kill people is what I get from the OP.
This is 100 percent correct.
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@Boss said:
Awww, i gain Tokens slower on Devour Hope.
It's fine though, i wouldn't mind sacrificing that little bit if everyone else will have more fun.
Also: Wow! A buff to Blindness!Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how you would gain stacks slower because you're guaranteed to gain a stack every time a survivor is resurrected regardless of your location.
The buff to blindness probably is a little much. They could add an effect around the graves to make them easier to spot.
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Gen rushing is a problem that needs addressing.
Camping and tunneling though? Sorry, but you already can do a million things to prevent yourself from getting hooked. The Killer can't do much to stop a gen rush unless they are Nurse.
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@MongByeolBuddies said:
@Boss said:
Awww, i gain Tokens slower on Devour Hope.
It's fine though, i wouldn't mind sacrificing that little bit if everyone else will have more fun.
Also: Wow! A buff to Blindness!Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how you would gain stacks slower because you're guaranteed to gain a stack every time a survivor is resurrected regardless of your location.
The buff to blindness probably is a little much. They could add an effect around the graves to make them easier to spot.
Generally, my hooked Survivors are saved within 15 seconds of me hooking them.
The sacrifice animation is about 10 seconds.
Unless they're camping a grave and the resurrect animation is 5 seconds or less, i'd lose time generally.0 -
I really like a lot of the aspects of what you propose:
From the to-1-side visible graves, to teleporting the survivor away from the hook through the mechanic to prevent camping...But there is an "Issue" and this might be a very non-obvious one. Before I explain it: The issue would suggest that after a survivor has been hooked, the person who rescues that survivor should do so at that hook and not at the grave. Here's why:
There is an issue of Stealth in this game. Stealth is a lot of fun for survivors, but with impulses or compelling stealth gameplay on the killers side stealth becomes an issue.
Killers barely are confronted with this state of stealth. It only occurs at the start of the game and when 1(maybe2) survivors are alive. They can create frustrating moments.
The beauty of tunnelling and hooking is that once this initial state has been broken at the start of the match (bc you found 1 survivor) you almost always have a target after that, because if you can't find anyone, you return to the hook and someone will be rescuing.It's this system of tunnelling (whether the unhooked or the saviour) is what helps to keep the game going in an interesting way for the killer had they failed to find anyone else.
If you made it so that therefore the saviour would have to be at a known location for the killer for the rescue (the hook) then It'd be very easy for me to support your suggestion.
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Similar to the solution that I came up with. https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/44817/how-to-fix-the-camping-tunneling-issue/p1
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@MongByeolBuddies said:
TLDR -- Once survivors are hooked, they are killed and their bodies are now transported to graves where they need to be resurrected. 3 Hooks and they're dead. This new mechanic would only be applied when the devs add a secondary objective for survivors.
So what do you think? Would this fix the problem?
Thank you for the TLDR.
I like the idea.0 -
@Boss said:
@MongByeolBuddies said:
@Boss said:
Awww, i gain Tokens slower on Devour Hope.
It's fine though, i wouldn't mind sacrificing that little bit if everyone else will have more fun.
Also: Wow! A buff to Blindness!Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how you would gain stacks slower because you're guaranteed to gain a stack every time a survivor is resurrected regardless of your location.
The buff to blindness probably is a little much. They could add an effect around the graves to make them easier to spot.
Generally, my hooked Survivors are saved within 15 seconds of me hooking them.
The sacrifice animation is about 10 seconds.
Unless they're camping a grave and the resurrect animation is 5 seconds or less, i'd lose time generally.We could also add a longer time to get people out. I think that would be fair since you don't necessarily have to contend with a killer camping the area.
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Main differences between our solutions is that I recommend still using the hooks. When the player dies they are sent to a ghost world for 45 seconds on first death and 30 seconds on second death. When they return they are placed on a random hook at least 32 meters away from the killer. The killer can not see the hooked survivor and the hook will appear broken to the killer (so the killer doesn't attempt to take a downed survivor to a hook that is already occupied).
Survivors hooked in the basement are sent to the ghost world for an additional 30 seconds. If all survivors are either dead, hooked, or in the ghost world the killer wins. Survivors that are hooked can attempt to pull themselves off the hook. Each attempt takes 4 seconds and the first attempt has a 0% chance of success and each attempt thereafter increases the chance of success by 1%. There is no progress bar towards sacrifice and no struggle phase.
By using the hook system which is already in place far less work would need to be done by the devs and fewer perks would need changed. Really, only slippery meat and monstrous shrine would need a rework with my system. Also my system has a built in time out for survivors that have been caught thus lowering the pressure on the killer. Times can obviously be adjusted if it is too long or too short.
Perk Reworks:
Monstrous Shrine- Survivors hooked in the basement are sent to the ghost world for an additional 5/10/15 seconds. Gain a bonus 500/1000/1500 bloodpoints when hooking survivors in the basement.
Slippery Meat- When hooked you start with a 4% chance of escaping and make your escape attempts 10/15/20% faster. Odds of success increase by 2% instead of 1% with each attempt.
The odds of freeing yourself from Bear Traps are increased by 15/20/25 %.0
