Don't Balance The Game . . . Balance How It's Played . . . No Nerf Or Buff Required ! ! !
Everything created for this game is based around balance. At least that's the intention except . . .
cough Survive With Friends cough . . .
Now I know what you're thinking "A Cry Baby Killer Main" How did I know? Anyone with a decent amount of common sense should understand SWF lacks fairness regarding the way this game is balanced. Now you might want to hold onto something, this could come as quite a shock from a supposed "Killer Main" but SWF should exist. It's good for friends who frequent games together, supposedly good for the Dead By Daylight community . . supposedly. Bottom line it is here to stay. I welcome SWF with open arms. Though there are times I say "O . M . . G . . . Again" and that's fine.
Didn't mean to drag that out, but hope to assume a neutral standing with viewers of this thread as I play Killer and Survivor equally at rank 1. Don't worry rank is meaningless I could be as bad as a rank 20 for all I know.
On topic finally,
fact is that this game is balanced around 1 Killer and 4 'Random' Survivors. Any die hard SWF member wanting to argue this only needs to refer to the list of perks and the growing (note 'growing') amount of perks that a SWF group would find useless. The most recent example is the Aftercare perk. And perhaps a brand spanking new SWF to the game could make use of these kinds of perks as they learn the game, but as mentioned before this common knowledge requires you to have a "decent amount of common sense". If you still don't get it, best move along as you wont have anything of relevance to offer to this thread or you can stay and make a pointless post and the rest of us will have a chuckle.
Onto balance finally,
the idea is that within a SWF group, and only within a SWF group each member is limited to a unique perk and item. It's that simple. The only thing that cannot be balanced is the free flow of information through communication, but SWF has earned that right. They are a special bunch, had only the 4 'Random' Survivors had such technology before being sent into a horrific trial with any hope of surviving the the Killer, the game would be called Survive By Daylight. No Special SWF Unit armed with toolboxes with speed add-ons, sabotage squads 99% every hook using no mither ect. And no 4 man SC, DS, SB, BT . . . whatever combo of perks you can think of efficient SWF running.
The problem unfortunately,
I am not sure how this would be implemented.
P.S. When I was a new killer I would always dodge SWF. Yes, I am ashamed. I see no point in dodging now, it's not a point of 'Get Good' but rather tolerance. I have plenty SWF in my killer games who seem to wreck my face only to fall hard at the end. And other SWF who . . wreck my face. You see SWF isn't OP (Though Unfair To How The Game Was Designed) the ability for SWF to coordinate not only through speech, but through running an 'efficient' perk/item/offering load out does make what SWF are able to accomplish without any effort OP.
One more time,
ANYONE WITH A DECENT AMOUNT OF COMMON SENSE can see I am shooting for fairness and balance. I don't want to nerf Survivors or buff Killers. I don't even want to get rid of SWF. The game is balanced, it's imperfect, but gets fine tuned now and then. Though the balance to SWF isn't made through a few perk tweaks or game play changes that give choice to dodge or DC when certain conditions are unsavory. The fact that SWF can and should be able to play together, under certain conditions across the board would give killers a fighting chance against those Special Ops SWF Units.
Comments
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Thank you for addressing the SWF-Topic. Now that someone finally did this, I guess we can find a solution.
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You should probably specify that the problem is an ORGANIZED SWF because speaking from someone who frequently plays SWF (even if its just one other person and up to a full group) we consistently have to run perks you say are useless to SWF such as Aftercare, because we may have voice coms but its way easier to see it on the screen. Yes, the information of where ruin is is useful, and yes the information of who has the killer's attention is useful, but most of the time an unorganized SWF can get lost looking for that ruin, and can also frequently sandbag if they communicate the wrong area (speaking from experience).
Also they already implemented the hidden loadout until the game ends so this is already addressing the problem.
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People dont seem to realize that SWF is so "Broken" because It has "a good rank system". Those people that play SWF are solo players that know every trick in the game and just got tired of playing with people who dont have te same lvl of skill as them.
The only way to balance the game is by fixing the rank system so that everyone stays at the rank they deserve and then buff all killers to be viable at those ranks.0 -
@Aven_Fallen said:
Thank you for addressing the SWF-Topic. Now that someone finally did this, I guess we can find a solution.The solution is implementing ingame voicecomms and balancing the game around comm-coordinated survivors
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@tt_ivi_99 said:
People dont seem to realize that SWF is so "Broken" because It has "a good rank system". Those people that play SWF are solo players that know every trick in the game and just got tired of playing with people who dont have te same lvl of skill as them.The only way to balance the game is by fixing the rank system so that everyone stays at the rank they deserve and then buff all killers to be viable at those ranks.
While that is definitely necessary too, it doesnt adress the balance gap between solo and SWF
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No. This was an idea proposed before and it's a bad one.
Look at Steam profiles friend. You have tools to avoid SWF. Use them.
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@mistressdiana said:
because we may have voice coms but its way easier to see it on the screen.The usual conversation...
in chase "I just ran past Ruin"
"Ok where?"
"It's over here"
"Where is over here?"
"IDK by some trees or something"
SMHOR
"Killer is chasing me"
"Okay I'm on a gen"
not looking behind them, just running forward constantly "He is still on me"
"HOLY #########!"
"What?"
"I just got grabbed off the gen. ######### YOU SAID HE WAS CHASING YOU!"OR
in basement
"He left me, you can come save now"
"Okay I'm coming"
steps in trap
"Oh BTW he put a trap on the stairs"4 -
Of course It does, this game is not about just doing gens, its about running the killer for as long as you can in order for your team to do those gens.Master said:@tt_ivi_99 said:
People dont seem to realize that SWF is so "Broken" because It has "a good rank system". Those people that play SWF are solo players that know every trick in the game and just got tired of playing with people who dont have te same lvl of skill as them.The only way to balance the game is by fixing the rank system so that everyone stays at the rank they deserve and then buff all killers to be viable at those ranks.
While that is definitely necessary too, it doesnt adress the balance gap between solo and SWF
By having a proper Rank System based on hours played we would have the best solo survivors teamming up and the killers would be buffed to counter the knowledge this survivors have about looping.
Rank System needs to be fixed so that devs realize how powerful solo survivors actually are if everyone inside that team knows how to semi loop.0 -
@Aven_Fallen said:
Thank you for addressing the SWF-Topic. Now that someone finally did this, I guess we can find a solution.Your feedback is invaluable.
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@mistressdiana said:
You should probably specify that the problem is an ORGANIZED SWF because speaking from someone who frequently plays SWF (even if its just one other person and up to a full group) we consistently have to run perks you say are useless to SWF such as Aftercare, because we may have voice coms but its way easier to see it on the screen. Yes, the information of where ruin is is useful, and yes the information of who has the killer's attention is useful, but most of the time an unorganized SWF can get lost looking for that ruin, and can also frequently sandbag if they communicate the wrong area (speaking from experience).Also they already implemented the hidden loadout until the game ends so this is already addressing the problem.
While it's a long read, the fact you can't read what I specified as the problem with SWF highlights the problem with Pro SWF Players who can't see beyond their own 'power' to essentially make it 4x harder on a Killer with no such advantages.
The fact SWF can have mirrored load outs with the purpose to abuse the load outs designed around unorganized players. It is truly sad I have to explain this when it's so obvious.
4 players in a SWF group use DS . . All 4 know they have DS as they are SWF . . . With this knowledge they know body blocking the killer to let non obsession survivors get to the % to hit their DS would be viable. And they can do this 4x.
Well 4 randoms can have 4 DS strikes. Yes, but 4 true randoms won't know the other 3 have DS and won't be able to abuse that knowledge.
That is 1 of many examples for combinations SWF can take full advantage of and was not what any of the perks or items were designed around. They were designed to give individual players better chances of surviving. Group knowledge completely changes the balance.
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@tt_ivi_99 said:
People dont seem to realize that SWF is so "Broken" because It has "a good rank system". Those people that play SWF are solo players that know every trick in the game and just got tired of playing with people who dont have te same lvl of skill as them.The only way to balance the game is by fixing the rank system so that everyone stays at the rank they deserve and then buff all killers to be viable at those ranks.
Rank has nothing to do with balance . . Rank is a separate issue for those who care about it.
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@Master said:
@Aven_Fallen said:
Thank you for addressing the SWF-Topic. Now that someone finally did this, I guess we can find a solution.The solution is implementing ingame voicecomms and balancing the game around comm-coordinated survivors
You can't 'balance' a game that was not intended to have voice communication and has not evolved in any way to account for it.
Want to 'balance' the game around SWF make the killer 2x - 3x - 4x stronger in certain areas. You see, that does not solve the problem, only makes the killer stronger.
Instead they should limit what SWF can do to stack the odds in their favor outside of voice communication.
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@DexyIV said:
No. This was an idea proposed before and it's a bad one.Look at Steam profiles friend. You have tools to avoid SWF. Use them.
Avoiding SWF might seem as a viable option, but it causes other game issues down the line. Que times and what not. Something needs to be done to balance the 'group' mechanic that SWF have. Nothing changed outside of SWF will ever 'fix' SWF affect on the game play balance.
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@thesuicidefox said:
@mistressdiana said:
because we may have voice coms but its way easier to see it on the screen.The usual conversation...
in chase "I just ran past Ruin"
"Ok where?"
"It's over here"
"Where is over here?"
"IDK by some trees or something"
SMHOR
"Killer is chasing me"
"Okay I'm on a gen"
not looking behind them, just running forward constantly "He is still on me"
"HOLY #########!"
"What?"
"I just got grabbed off the gen. [BAD WORD] YOU SAID HE WAS CHASING YOU!"OR
in basement
"He left me, you can come save now"
"Okay I'm coming"
steps in trap
"Oh BTW he put a trap on the stairs"No doubt communication needs to be adequate to the situation to be a strong force against a killer, but I am not complaining about communication.
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I just don't like it when my rank 10 is consistently matched vs swf groups that contain lvl 2 and 3's in them.
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@Lillika said:
I just don't like it when my rank 10 is consistently matched vs swf groups that contain lvl 2 and 3's in them.You know, I thought it was just me getting ranked with absurdly high ranks in comparison to myself. It makes it very frustrating to play sometimes.
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Honestly, just add baseline Kindred and a way to tell who's getting chased (like the entity legs around the obsession) and I'd be happy, as a solo.
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@SIlentCetra said:
@Lillika said:
I just don't like it when my rank 10 is consistently matched vs swf groups that contain lvl 2 and 3's in them.You know, I thought it was just me getting ranked with absurdly high ranks in comparison to myself. It makes it very frustrating to play sometimes.
About 1 hour ago I had a match as a survivor. The Killer was Rank 2, I was Rank 1, 2 survivors were Rank 7 and the last one was Rank 8. I was solo, no idea how the 3 lower ranks ended up in that game.
Matchmaking might be a little messed up.
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@JanTheMan said:
Honestly, just add baseline Kindred and a way to tell who's getting chased (like the entity legs around the obsession) and I'd be happy, as a solo.In my experience, the game feels as it should solo. You hope to find someone to heal you. You hope a survivor isn't bringing the killer your way. You hope to get decent survivors in your trial. It's not near as heart racing as it was when I was new, but you still have a tad bit anxiety hoping your survivors do what they can to help and not mess you over.
That's part of the chaos that makes survivor fun, but when you have these knowledgeable SWF groups they don't feel any of that. The only thing they feel is salt if and when they don't dominate a game. Even if you 1k, you are still a noob camper as that is the only way you could have gotten said 1k. It's sad. If only they would admit how easy they have it.
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@TrAiNwReCk said:
@JanTheMan said:
Honestly, just add baseline Kindred and a way to tell who's getting chased (like the entity legs around the obsession) and I'd be happy, as a solo.In my experience, the game feels as it should solo. You hope to find someone to heal you. You hope a survivor isn't bringing the killer your way. You hope to get decent survivors in your trial. It's not near as heart racing as it was when I was new, but you still have a tad bit anxiety hoping your survivors do what they can to help and not mess you over.
That's part of the chaos that makes survivor fun, but when you have these knowledgeable SWF groups they don't feel any of that. The only thing they feel is salt if and when they don't dominate a game. Even if you 1k, you are still a noob camper as that is the only way you could have gotten said 1k. It's sad. If only they would admit how easy they have it.
Not claiming all SWF are that efficient, but the fact that the balance is tipped off the scales in favor of SWF groups who have strong knowledge of the game.
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Rank has everything to do with balance in this.TrAiNwReCk said:@tt_ivi_99 said:
People dont seem to realize that SWF is so "Broken" because It has "a good rank system". Those people that play SWF are solo players that know every trick in the game and just got tired of playing with people who dont have te same lvl of skill as them.The only way to balance the game is by fixing the rank system so that everyone stays at the rank they deserve and then buff all killers to be viable at those ranks.
Rank has nothing to do with balance . . Rank is a separate issue for those who care about it.
How are you gonna balance a game in which one of the sides depends on teamwork and the other depends on how bad his opponents are doing?
The current rank system gives false information to the devs, they asked the community how they could buff killers if the survival rate was so low. The low survival rate is because people dont play at the rank they deserve, resulting in deaths that would have not happen if they were playing at the rank they deserve.
By fixing rank system devs would see the real survival rate, which would increase a lot, and they would be forced to balance maps, killers, etc.0 -
I miss spoke. Rank has a balance, but it's not at all the balance I am referring to in my thread. The ranking system needs to be categorized solo/SWF as there are many SWF with say Rank 1 & 2 with a Rank 8 & 12. If players can't Rank up as a solo survivor then they are probably not doing themselves any favors. Then you have those preaching Rank doesn't mean anything . .
1 You haven't Ranked up because you are not good enough to score high enough within the current emblem system.
or
2 You purposely drop to get easier games.
Both imply you are not as good as higher ranked players.
Being Rank 1 Killer/Survivor doesn't make you a Dbd god, but it doesn't put you in line with a lesser rank.
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I'm having the same issue with SWF. Worst is the SWF that not only are good and work extremely well together but also taunt the entire match and then when it's over mock you as if there were anything you could do to not be steamrolled.
If I can 4K semi-often with a non-SWF group, I think I'm decent at the game. This reflects the original design of the game which had no SWF and was balanced towards random survivors who couldn't communicate with each other.
Obviously, a balance is needed.
First, implement in-game comms. This way you can balance killer versus survivor knowing every round the survivors will be communicating with each other.
Second, the game knows when a match is SWF. Balance towards that as well because while a group of randoms may coordinate some, it's likely SWF will coordinate significantly better on average. To balance this, the no-repeatable perks seems one solution. Another would be making gens/chests/gates take an extra 5-10% longer to repair/open. Just a few ideas. There' are literally hundreds of things they could do to balance SWF.
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@Silverbusa said:
I'm having the same issue with SWF. Worst is the SWF that not only are good and work extremely well together but also taunt the entire match and then when it's over mock you as if there were anything you could do to not be steamrolled.If I can 4K semi-often with a non-SWF group, I think I'm decent at the game. This reflects the original design of the game which had no SWF and was balanced towards random survivors who couldn't communicate with each other.
Obviously, a balance is needed.
First, implement in-game comms. This way you can balance killer versus survivor knowing every round the survivors will be communicating with each other.
Second, the game knows when a match is SWF. Balance towards that as well because while a group of randoms may coordinate some, it's likely SWF will coordinate significantly better on average. To balance this, the no-repeatable perks seems one solution. Another would be making gens/chests/gates take an extra 5-10% longer to repair/open. Just a few ideas. There' are literally hundreds of things they could do to balance SWF.
Haven't had many constructive posts to this thread. Great to have some neutral balance feedback. Those could be some good ideas. I myself don't have the best ideas, but I think the developer trying (if they are) to balance out SWF through perks or other shared in game mechanics it simply won't work. They need to make changes that focus 100% on SWF lobbies. The item/offering/perk limitation to use only unique selections per player within a SWF group would keep well coordinated SWF from abusing solo survivor balanced items/perks/offerings. Wish the devs would at least give some feedback to let us know they're taking things into consideration so these threads don't seem endless and to an extent pointless.
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@TrAiNwReCk said:
@Silverbusa said:
I'm having the same issue with SWF. Worst is the SWF that not only are good and work extremely well together but also taunt the entire match and then when it's over mock you as if there were anything you could do to not be steamrolled.If I can 4K semi-often with a non-SWF group, I think I'm decent at the game. This reflects the original design of the game which had no SWF and was balanced towards random survivors who couldn't communicate with each other.
Obviously, a balance is needed.
First, implement in-game comms. This way you can balance killer versus survivor knowing every round the survivors will be communicating with each other.
Second, the game knows when a match is SWF. Balance towards that as well because while a group of randoms may coordinate some, it's likely SWF will coordinate significantly better on average. To balance this, the no-repeatable perks seems one solution. Another would be making gens/chests/gates take an extra 5-10% longer to repair/open. Just a few ideas. There' are literally hundreds of things they could do to balance SWF.
Haven't had many constructive posts to this thread. Great to have some neutral balance feedback. Those could be some good ideas. I myself don't have the best ideas, but I think the developer trying (if they are) to balance out SWF through perks or other shared in game mechanics it simply won't work. They need to make changes that focus 100% on SWF lobbies. The item/offering/perk limitation to use only unique selections per player within a SWF group would keep well coordinated SWF from abusing solo survivor balanced items/perks/offerings. Wish the devs would at least give some feedback to let us know they're taking things into consideration so these threads don't seem endless and to an extent pointless.
I had a SWF group today. They confirmed they were 4-man (inadvertently). Their perks (11 out of 16) were optimized to escape the killer and rescue friends.
Since they were being toxic ######### and acting as if I were a complete noob, I asked if they thought SWF using comms was balanced. Of course they did. They continued being abusive and I pointed out their perks and how they optimized for their 4-man SWF.
One guy said he would have played his build even solo. And it's probably true. However, the odds of getting 4 people with builds like theirs in a random group is extremely low. Couple their optimized builds with voice comms and the motivation to work as a team and not just save themselves, you get complete in-balance.
I watched one of the devs' streams today and he was answering all kinds of questions but he made it clear there were questions he wouldn't address. I questioned him about SWF balance and of course, he ignored it. The devs don't seem to care, have management telling them to leave it alone so they can attract more players (friends of current players) which makes the company more money, or they believe balancing the game for SWF is just too hard to tackle.
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@Silverbusa said:
@TrAiNwReCk said:
@Silverbusa said:
I'm having the same issue with SWF. Worst is the SWF that not only are good and work extremely well together but also taunt the entire match and then when it's over mock you as if there were anything you could do to not be steamrolled.If I can 4K semi-often with a non-SWF group, I think I'm decent at the game. This reflects the original design of the game which had no SWF and was balanced towards random survivors who couldn't communicate with each other.
Obviously, a balance is needed.
First, implement in-game comms. This way you can balance killer versus survivor knowing every round the survivors will be communicating with each other.
Second, the game knows when a match is SWF. Balance towards that as well because while a group of randoms may coordinate some, it's likely SWF will coordinate significantly better on average. To balance this, the no-repeatable perks seems one solution. Another would be making gens/chests/gates take an extra 5-10% longer to repair/open. Just a few ideas. There' are literally hundreds of things they could do to balance SWF.
Haven't had many constructive posts to this thread. Great to have some neutral balance feedback. Those could be some good ideas. I myself don't have the best ideas, but I think the developer trying (if they are) to balance out SWF through perks or other shared in game mechanics it simply won't work. They need to make changes that focus 100% on SWF lobbies. The item/offering/perk limitation to use only unique selections per player within a SWF group would keep well coordinated SWF from abusing solo survivor balanced items/perks/offerings. Wish the devs would at least give some feedback to let us know they're taking things into consideration so these threads don't seem endless and to an extent pointless.
I had a SWF group today. They confirmed they were 4-man (inadvertently). Their perks (11 out of 16) were optimized to escape the killer and rescue friends.
Since they were being toxic ######### and acting as if I were a complete noob, I asked if they thought SWF using comms was balanced. Of course they did. They continued being abusive and I pointed out their perks and how they optimized for their 4-man SWF.
One guy said he would have played his build even solo. And it's probably true. However, the odds of getting 4 people with builds like theirs in a random group is extremely low. Couple their optimized builds with voice comms and the motivation to work as a team and not just save themselves, you get complete in-balance.
I watched one of the devs' streams today and he was answering all kinds of questions but he made it clear there were questions he wouldn't address. I questioned him about SWF balance and of course, he ignored it. The devs don't seem to care, have management telling them to leave it alone so they can attract more players (friends of current players) which makes the company more money, or they believe balancing the game for SWF is just too hard to tackle.
Thanks for sharing your experience. The funny part is even if you 1k, shoot you can even 0k and they will still call you a camper, tunneler ect. It's insane how . . clueless or careless players can be so long as they get what they want.
That's why I was excited to think of this one idea, to limit the abilities SWF had within the game. I truly believe SWF should stay, and it is anyway. They have voice communication that can never be balanced in my opinion. The least the developer could do is balance what SWF are capable of within the load out screen.
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Voice can be balanced. You make comms an in-game thing like Overwatch or Last Year. Then when you see survivors stomping killer and you balance for it with the ideas I provided above.
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@Silverbusa said:
Voice can be balanced. You make comms an in-game thing like Overwatch or Last Year. Then when you see survivors stomping killer and you balance for it with the ideas I provided above.I meant you can't balance voice in the sense you can alter it in any way, it is unchangeable. I don't dislike your ideas. Wish we could get feedback from the developer or someone on this topic. Though everyone probably wants feedback on their topic.
Again, thanks for your constructive feedback!
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@TrAiNwReCk said:
fact is that this game is balanced around 1 Killer and 4 'Random' Survivors.It's designed around 1 Killer vs 4 'random' survivors with altruism and teamwork as only an option. But it's not balanced, because this core design is unbalancable. You either make the killer so strong, that survivor have to be complete teamplayers to escape or you give the balance strength towards the single survivor, so they have still a chance, when they can't rely on teammates. In DbD is currently more balanced to the second approach. I mean, it was onyl meant as a 'fun casual' you play from time to time. That's why even perks like DS exist in the first place or the hatch.
And I personally that's the design approach which hurts killers and balance more, than SWF. The "SWF issue" is just the outcome of this, because they work more likely together they reach the full strength potential of survivors. But four randoms can reach it as well.@TrAiNwReCk said:
Onto balance finally,the idea is that within a SWF group, and only within a SWF group each member is limited to a unique perk and item. It's that simple. The only thing that cannot be balanced is the free flow of information through communication, but SWF has earned that right. They are a special bunch, had only the 4 'Random' Survivors had such technology before being sent into a horrific trial with any hope of surviving the the Killer, the game would be called Survive By Daylight. No Special SWF Unit armed with toolboxes with speed add-ons, sabotage squads 99% every hook using no mither ect. And no 4 man SC, DS, SB, BT . . . whatever combo of perks you can think of efficient SWF running.
Any form of limitation of SWF is a bad idea. It would alienate the playerbase and undercutting their freedom. And keep in mind that the experience of a 2-person-SWF, a 3-person-SWF and a 4-person-SWF is complete different as well. And let's not start talking about playstyles. SWF groups exists with different mentalitties.
Besides that it's technical possible for Randoms to become an efficient SWF group, if they just share a Discord link during the Lobby wait group etc.
It's just SWF is not one big predeterment group or 'problem' in the game. It's onyl problematic in certain situations and combinations. Like your DS example. But this shows just how broken DS is as a perk. Especially the wiggle DS, which is just bad Design.
Actually you can't 100% balance this game. It's core design doesn't make it possible. The onyl thing I see, which can be done is weakening the strong tools survivors can have, so their potential strength is limited. That's stuff Devs did in the past and are planning to do in the future as well. (DS rework e.g.)0 -
I know I’m going to get hate for posting this- but I’m going to anyway.
I really like SWF. It’s fun to play with friends, and though it’s annoying from the killers perspective, it’s fairly easy to do so, and since the game itself has a discord, it’s no wonder people use it. SWF is inevitable. Even without it people will manipulate when they que up in hopes of getting in the same game, there’s no way around it. I understand SWF is super annoying, because as someone who plays Spirit, it can be bothersome. But I learn to work around it. My point is; regardless of what would happen to SWF- even the removal of perks, it would likely create a game design issue- I love solo players to death and respect them, don’t get me wrong- but so many people say that depending upon how many people you que with, you shouldn’t be penalized for it. Think of people who are more, casual, and don’t play the game as much. They probably play with their friends- they should just enjoy the experience.
What I’m trying to say is- I think as of now SWF is fine. There’s nothing much the devs can do without pleasing one group, and annoying one another. As of now, it should just be left alone- and optimization and other gameplay fundamentals should be addressed, such as the issue with speed hacking, gameplay design, and performance, rather than SWF- just bring a mori if you see one, it’s okay, I don’t judge.0 -
@Freudentrauma said:
@TrAiNwReCk said:
fact is that this game is balanced around 1 Killer and 4 'Random' Survivors.It's designed around 1 Killer vs 4 'random' survivors with altruism and teamwork as only an option. But it's not balanced, because this core design is unbalancable. You either make the killer so strong, that survivor have to be complete teamplayers to escape or you give the balance strength towards the single survivor, so they have still a chance, when they can't rely on teammates. In DbD is currently more balanced to the second approach. I mean, it was onyl meant as a 'fun casual' you play from time to time. That's why even perks like DS exist in the first place or the hatch.
And I personally that's the design approach which hurts killers and balance more, than SWF. The "SWF issue" is just the outcome of this, because they work more likely together they reach the full strength potential of survivors. But four randoms can reach it as well.@TrAiNwReCk said:
Onto balance finally,the idea is that within a SWF group, and only within a SWF group each member is limited to a unique perk and item. It's that simple. The only thing that cannot be balanced is the free flow of information through communication, but SWF has earned that right. They are a special bunch, had only the 4 'Random' Survivors had such technology before being sent into a horrific trial with any hope of surviving the the Killer, the game would be called Survive By Daylight. No Special SWF Unit armed with toolboxes with speed add-ons, sabotage squads 99% every hook using no mither ect. And no 4 man SC, DS, SB, BT . . . whatever combo of perks you can think of efficient SWF running.
Any form of limitation of SWF is a bad idea. It would alienate the playerbase and undercutting their freedom. And keep in mind that the experience of a 2-person-SWF, a 3-person-SWF and a 4-person-SWF is complete different as well. And let's not start talking about playstyles. SWF groups exists with different mentalitties.
Besides that it's technical possible for Randoms to become an efficient SWF group, if they just share a Discord link during the Lobby wait group etc.
It's just SWF is not one big predeterment group or 'problem' in the game. It's onyl problematic in certain situations and combinations. Like your DS example. But this shows just how broken DS is as a perk. Especially the wiggle DS, which is just bad Design.
Actually you can't 100% balance this game. It's core design doesn't make it possible. The onyl thing I see, which can be done is weakening the strong tools survivors can have, so their potential strength is limited. That's stuff Devs did in the past and are planning to do in the future as well. (DS rework e.g.)First off, thanks for the constructive feedback. Players should be able to share their opinions and views of this game without everyone going nuts because what they think is right regardless.
It's designed around 1 Killer vs 4 'random' survivors with altruism and teamwork as only an option. But it's not balanced, because this core design is unbalancable. You either make the killer so strong, that survivor have to be complete teamplayers to escape or you give the balance strength towards the single survivor, so they have still a chance, when they can't rely on teammates. In DbD is currently more balanced to the second approach. I mean, it was onyl meant as a 'fun casual' you play from time to time. That's why even perks like DS exist in the first place or the hatch.
And I personally that's the design approach which hurts killers and balance more, than SWF. The "SWF issue" is just the outcome of this, because they work more likely together they reach the full strength potential of survivors. But four randoms can reach it as well.Balance creates potential, the balance currently in game is balanced around random (unorganized, unscripted, having no knowledge of others intentions or abilities) survivors and a killer. The random team play this game was intended around made survivors as a 'team' much less, so they made perks to improve team potential and perks to increase single survivors ability to survive. You take the intended balance then add unintended voice communication, organization that no group of perks could help randoms attain. Random survivors should have a chance, but the chance given through the current balance gives SWF much more power to abuse those balanced mechanics when you add everything else they can do as a knowledgeable, communicating group. 4 good randoms have all the same tools as a 4 SWF group except voice communication, going into the trial with a plan, a script of whose going to be the runner/saver/gen rusher, and having a load out based around what their plan is. Sure randoms can jump into a discord, I have (I admittedly accepted an invite once within a solo lobby) and it was the most annoying uncoordinated group of voices and gave us maybe a 5% increase to survival "He's near the shack, cow tree, barn" ect. everything else nothing but random players making noise and 95% wasn't even talking about the game.
Any form of limitation of SWF is a bad idea. It would alienate the playerbase and undercutting their freedom. And keep in mind that the experience of a 2-person-SWF, a 3-person-SWF and a 4-person-SWF is complete different as well. And let's not start talking about playstyles. SWF groups exists with different mentalitties.
Besides that it's technical possible for Randoms to become an efficient SWF group, if they just share a Discord link during the Lobby wait group etc.
It's just SWF is not one big predeterment group or 'problem' in the game. It's onyl problematic in certain situations and combinations. Like your DS example. But this shows just how broken DS is as a perk. Especially the wiggle DS, which is just bad Design.
Actually you can't 100% balance this game. It's core design doesn't make it possible. The onyl thing I see, which can be done is weakening the strong tools survivors can have, so their potential strength is limited. That's stuff Devs did in the past and are planning to do in the future as well. (DS rework e.g.)I can see your point, no blanket idea will be a perfect fit for balance. Solo survivors are already alienated by the lack of in game voice communication, knowledge of each others capabilities and script for any planned action within the trial. Most random survivors can muster up within the 60 seconds is stacking offerings. Again, if they really wanted to jump in a discord their communication would be overlapping, yelling. screaming, complaining, not game focused. Just a big annoying mess (muted) lol.
I agree that not all SWF are S tier. Many just want to group and have fun. If that is the case, those grouping to have fun won't care. The S tier SWF are the ones that will have a problem, because they won't be able to break the game balance with their out of game knowledge of one another and voice communication.
I don't feel the game needs much balancing, the developers . . although very very very slow to act on the simplest of balance do try to balance the in game perks and whatnot. SWF is the only game breaking entity that can do what random survivors cannot (as efficiently).
An example, if a solo survivor without any type of aid could abuse game mechanic A, B and C to take up the killers time the whole match (fault of the killer for not breaking off) then the developer would be getting tons of flak for A, B and C. At the moment unless the killer is a potato, no solo survivor can do this, at least not anymore. SWF can do A, B and C because of their before mentioned capabilities as an organized group. And that is why SWF needs to be limited, but the game overall isn't that bad. It was a lot worse with infinite loops, double pallets, instant flashlights ect ect. Only OP thing in this game are what SWF groups can do, not the groups themselves.
Thanks again for your post!
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@Watery said:
I know I’m going to get hate for posting this- but I’m going to anyway.
I really like SWF. It’s fun to play with friends, and though it’s annoying from the killers perspective, it’s fairly easy to do so, and since the game itself has a discord, it’s no wonder people use it. SWF is inevitable. Even without it people will manipulate when they que up in hopes of getting in the same game, there’s no way around it. I understand SWF is super annoying, because as someone who plays Spirit, it can be bothersome. But I learn to work around it. My point is; regardless of what would happen to SWF- even the removal of perks, it would likely create a game design issue- I love solo players to death and respect them, don’t get me wrong- but so many people say that depending upon how many people you que with, you shouldn’t be penalized for it. Think of people who are more, casual, and don’t play the game as much. They probably play with their friends- they should just enjoy the experience.What I’m trying to say is- I think as of now SWF is fine. There’s nothing much the devs can do without pleasing one group, and annoying one another. As of now, it should just be left alone- and optimization and other gameplay fundamentals should be addressed, such as the issue with speed hacking, gameplay design, and performance, rather than SWF- just bring a mori if you see one, it’s okay, I don’t judge.
No one should be hateful unless hated on by someone else. Two wrongs don't make a right, but everyone knows it makes us feel better. ROFL.
I agree, this thread isn't to remove SWF. Players should have the option to play together. I am 100% with you on this. While SWF once were a lobby to be dodged every time you got them, you get over it, play the darn game and get better at the game. Which makes you better at playing against SWF. Unfortunately, there are those hardcore SWF, not casual SWF that do break the game of any balance leaving killers with absolutely no recourse but to become frustrated, taunted and forced to continue a game that they have no chance at all of feeling like they could or had accomplished anything.
SWF should exist, as you said it was probably inevitable. Though Survivors within a SWF group should be limited to unique perks/items/offings per person as to not be able to abuse a system to a game breaking level. Randomly grouped survivors will never ever have the OP capabilities that those within a knowledgeable organized SWF currently have. Voice communication is only as good as what you do with it, real SWF can make great use out of it. Randoms on a discord, maybe 1-2 of them can be constructive and have a leg up, but there will always be those annoying randoms that voice nothing but annoyance, noise and nothing game related.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and views!
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I appreciate the honesty- and frankly, I agree. Not to say that SWF isn’t unbalanced, but it’s also got multiple ways to look at it. : ) Thanks for not throwing a temper tantrum- I’m glad we can discuss this topic as politely and calmly as possible.TrAiNwReCk said:@Watery said:
I know I’m going to get hate for posting this- but I’m going to anyway.
I really like SWF. It’s fun to play with friends, and though it’s annoying from the killers perspective, it’s fairly easy to do so, and since the game itself has a discord, it’s no wonder people use it. SWF is inevitable. Even without it people will manipulate when they que up in hopes of getting in the same game, there’s no way around it. I understand SWF is super annoying, because as someone who plays Spirit, it can be bothersome. But I learn to work around it. My point is; regardless of what would happen to SWF- even the removal of perks, it would likely create a game design issue- I love solo players to death and respect them, don’t get me wrong- but so many people say that depending upon how many people you que with, you shouldn’t be penalized for it. Think of people who are more, casual, and don’t play the game as much. They probably play with their friends- they should just enjoy the experience.What I’m trying to say is- I think as of now SWF is fine. There’s nothing much the devs can do without pleasing one group, and annoying one another. As of now, it should just be left alone- and optimization and other gameplay fundamentals should be addressed, such as the issue with speed hacking, gameplay design, and performance, rather than SWF- just bring a mori if you see one, it’s okay, I don’t judge.
No one should be hateful unless hated on by someone else. Two wrongs don't make a right, but everyone knows it makes us feel better. ROFL.
I agree, this thread isn't to remove SWF. Players should have the option to play together. I am 100% with you on this. While SWF once were a lobby to be dodged every time you got them, you get over it, play the darn game and get better at the game. Which makes you better at playing against SWF. Unfortunately, there are those hardcore SWF, not casual SWF that do break the game of any balance leaving killers with absolutely no recourse but to become frustrated, taunted and forced to continue a game that they have no chance at all of feeling like they could or had accomplished anything.
SWF should exist, as you said it was probably inevitable. Though Survivors within a SWF group should be limited to unique perks/items/offings per person as to not be able to abuse a system to a game breaking level. Randomly grouped survivors will never ever have the OP capabilities that those within a knowledgeable organized SWF currently have. Voice communication is only as good as what you do with it, real SWF can make great use out of it. Randoms on a discord, maybe 1-2 of them can be constructive and have a leg up, but there will always be those annoying randoms that voice nothing but annoyance, noise and nothing game related.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and views!
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@Watery said:
TrAiNwReCk said:@Watery said:
I know I’m going to get hate for posting this- but I’m going to anyway.
I really like SWF. It’s fun to play with friends, and though it’s annoying from the killers perspective, it’s fairly easy to do so, and since the game itself has a discord, it’s no wonder people use it. SWF is inevitable. Even without it people will manipulate when they que up in hopes of getting in the same game, there’s no way around it. I understand SWF is super annoying, because as someone who plays Spirit, it can be bothersome. But I learn to work around it. My point is; regardless of what would happen to SWF- even the removal of perks, it would likely create a game design issue- I love solo players to death and respect them, don’t get me wrong- but so many people say that depending upon how many people you que with, you shouldn’t be penalized for it. Think of people who are more, casual, and don’t play the game as much. They probably play with their friends- they should just enjoy the experience.
What I’m trying to say is- I think as of now SWF is fine. There’s nothing much the devs can do without pleasing one group, and annoying one another. As of now, it should just be left alone- and optimization and other gameplay fundamentals should be addressed, such as the issue with speed hacking, gameplay design, and performance, rather than SWF- just bring a mori if you see one, it’s okay, I don’t judge.
No one should be hateful unless hated on by someone else. Two wrongs don't make a right, but everyone knows it makes us feel better. ROFL.
I agree, this thread isn't to remove SWF. Players should have the option to play together. I am 100% with you on this. While SWF once were a lobby to be dodged every time you got them, you get over it, play the darn game and get better at the game. Which makes you better at playing against SWF. Unfortunately, there are those hardcore SWF, not casual SWF that do break the game of any balance leaving killers with absolutely no recourse but to become frustrated, taunted and forced to continue a game that they have no chance at all of feeling like they could or had accomplished anything.
SWF should exist, as you said it was probably inevitable. Though Survivors within a SWF group should be limited to unique perks/items/offings per person as to not be able to abuse a system to a game breaking level. Randomly grouped survivors will never ever have the OP capabilities that those within a knowledgeable organized SWF currently have. Voice communication is only as good as what you do with it, real SWF can make great use out of it. Randoms on a discord, maybe 1-2 of them can be constructive and have a leg up, but there will always be those annoying randoms that voice nothing but annoyance, noise and nothing game related.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and views!
I appreciate the honesty- and frankly, I agree. Not to say that SWF isn’t unbalanced, but it’s also got multiple ways to look at it. : ) Thanks for not throwing a temper tantrum- I’m glad we can discuss this topic as politely and calmly as possible.
You bet. Thanks again for you constructive post! Always nice to get a calm personal opinions out in a thread. Never fun getting attacked by someones first post/reply simply for sharing ones views.
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