How about an anti-tunnel debuff as well?
So, Survivors are getting a whole bunch of anti-tunnel buffs in the form of a 30s of hook Endurance, Haste and Elusive, and even Wicked aura.
This is a very strong set of changes for Survivor side, and for your average killer, will be a major incentive not to go after the Survivor off hook, especially when you factor in your anti-tunnel perks on top.
However if these changes comes to pass, to further cement an anti-tunnel initiative, why not give the unhooked Survivor a Conspicuous Action penalty... lets call it Fatigue, and make it so that they perform all conspicuous actions 20% slower for 90s (90 charges, 1 c/s). Hitting/Downing this Survivor with no other Survivors within 16m will cause this penalty to recover 100% faster (2c/s or 45s) (careful, Plot Twist might become a problem here and may need reverting to its previous form).
This combined with the challenges of eating through the anti-tunnel defences of the Survivors, actually rewards killers for not tunneling, and directly incentivises going after other Survivors or the unhooker instead of the unhooked Survivor, since their ability to progress the trial is significantly hampered.
As an added bonus, the killer is also incentivised to hook Survivors as well instead of slug, as hooking different Survivors rapidly slows down the Survivor team across the board, and helps give the killer a realistic chance of making a comeback.
P.S. While we're at it, why did we remove the unhooked player being unable to body block again? Cause I don't think either side has an issue with that change.
Comments
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Some people finding new changes insignificant. I don’t expect second chances be drastically changed tbf
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With all due respect friend, anyone who tries to claim basekit 30s of endurance, +10% Haste, aura read on the killer, iron will, no blood pools, and no scratch marks as insignificant... while still having their anti-tunnel perks in tact, just sucks at the game.
Sorry to be blunt, but there isn't really any other way to say it.
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I don't think we should be giving arbitrary penalties like this.
A big reason a lot of the changes were reconsidered was because adding severe penalties for certain actions felt awful, this would be a similar thing, but aimed at Survivors instead.
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In general I don't think creating penalties for either side to force them into playing "correctly" will help the life of the game. If people get frustrated because they feel they are fighting against the game rather than other players, they will just leave.
Sadly we powercreep making both sides more capable of completing their objective faster, nerfs to tools to help slowdown the game, and a lack of reward for not speedrunning a match to completion. There's just no reason for either side to not try to get a match over asap. Generators right now can be done in less than 3 minutes which is absurd imo. I think the game would be in a healthier position if BHVR took the time to put out an update to slow down the fastest match time. Slower games would allow killers to spread out hooks and if we give better rewards for spreading out hooks then killers would more likely engage in such behavior. Some killers would still tunnel, but it's important that killers can tunnel as there are situations where tunneling is the correct answer.
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Hmmm... I guess, but I suppose the key differences of this compared to original proposed killer penalities are: -
- This effect is temporary, not permanent.
- I only affects 1 part of the Survivor team per hook, not the whole team.
- It doesn't stop the Survivor taking actions, just makes it less efficient.
- It isn't contradictory to the Survivor objective, you have a penalty for getting caught (which is already somethimg you don't want), not for doing something you are aiming to do, like completing a generator.
- It even encourages skillful play and Survivors playing risky by trying to take chase/make plays for max efficiency. (A survivor who has this penalty is better to be chased, instead of their non-fatigued teammates).
My one big concern is faster killers are gonna need to be brought back a peg or 2, because this is quite a boon for killers that can already play the anti-tunnel game and still realistically win majority of their games...
I mean I'm open to other suggestions, but if you consider someone like Clown... who is very adept at killing off one Survivor fast even through Survivor defences, where their whole game is on that coin flip of how fast can they kill one Survivor... how else do make killers like him viable where they can't exploit their main strength, unless their ability to down and hook rapidly for a basekit healing/gen slowdown is their strength?
It also has the nice benefits of making it so Survivor can't use their 30s endurance to linger near Killer priority gens and hex totems, then quickly rush them down when the killer leaves, there is added risk, cause they are slower and not as heavily rewarded for being risky.
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Nuh, I pretty agree with it. But just to consider, maybe I’m too pessimistic here. I don’t think people who had big struggle against tunnelling from the start will suddenly equip this successfully. For already good survivors, it just makes game surprisingly easy
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I still don't think it's a good idea, even with the points you've highlighted.
I think BHVR already had a much better idea when considering bonus damage to the next generator kick, except the value could probably do with being lowered in the context of the reduced changes, probably like 5-10% extra instead of 20%.
This would give the killer means to get some extra pressure, without making it a slog for the individual Survivor hooked. It also incentivises leaving the hook with the added Bloodlust (which could do with being increased a bit from 5%), to be able to kick a gen that little bit faster.
I think any sort of measure taken to disincentivise tunnelling should primarily focus on giving both sides more tools to deal with tunnelling instead of penalising them for doing so. For example: Survivors get the tools of extra endurance, stealth and speed to more effectively buy time if they're getting tunneled; Killers get extra speed and generator slowdown for not tunnelling in order to maintain pressure without tunnelling.
Direct penalties feel terrible from a player's standpoint. Giving buffs for being tunnelled/not tunnelling is the way to go, in my opinion.
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I feel it's too soon to start adding more things to these features without any idea how they are going to impact the game first. Just at first glance the idea of getting penalized after getting hooked (more so than just a natural step closer to dying and getting removed from the match) feels a bit intense, likely for the same reasons that killers felt being penalized for their plays was too intense. I think the proposed changes for the unhooked survivor is a great start, but I absolutely agree that collision shouldn't be enabled, so they can't take protection hits. The point of anti-tunnel is to give you a chance to get away, not to get right back into chase. I am aware that several things in this game are not meant to be used a certain way but players will use it that way regardless, which leads to the whole pillar of Chaos that the devs want to maintain, but I do think that bodyblocking when fresh off the hook should be reconsidered.
But, who knows, if these changes do make it out of a PTB and then into the game, if they are too strong then a penalization to the unhooked survivors is an option to weaken it. Only time will tell.0 -
insignificant
Basically 4 perks basekit is insignificant?
Like sure, not even that many perks can fix incompetency, but that's not issue of the change.5 -
Now see I'm against kicking, cause kicking favours mobile killers, both in getting there to apply it, and to catch up after kicking. That was always my criticism of the PTB, it did nothing to help lower mobility killers, everything to help higher mobility killers.
Who benefits most from a mini Pop, Haste and BBQ? Wraith, Spirit, Wesker, Blight, Nurse, Dredge, Krasue, Ghoul, Freddy, Houdmaster, Chucky.... none of whom really need crazy help.
Who benefits least from a mini Pop, Haste and BBQ? Trapper, Hag, Pig, Skull Merchant, Ghost Face, Sadako (often doesn't hook), Shape, Cannibal, Trickster, Deathslinger... the killers who need the most help.
Now if you wanna give say... Pain Resonance, 10% Bloodlust for 30s until entering chase, and the basekit aura reveal but without distance limitation, ...that is a bit more universally useful to all killers across the board.
This is the problem of buffing killer side imo… not all killers have the same game plan... somebody is gonna get left behind no.matter what combo of buffs you give...
Now if you perhaps gave the killer classes to pick from, like 2v8, to choose the form of their buffs... now we're talking a feature that might actually work.
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So survivors should get penalties for nor being tunneled? Lmao how delusional.
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OK... but if the goal is to stop tunneling... doesn't it makes sense to make the more viable strategy not to target the Survivor off hook? That's the purpose of this whole thing right?
I answered why giving killer buffs are a problem in the post above yours. Let's say you give someone like Freddy 10% Haste off hook for 20s... lets say he takes Furtive Chase for an additional 10%... do you as a Survivor want a 5.42m/s Freddy running after you off a gen teleport? Cause that sounds pretty BS to me.
I feel pretty confident I can probably point out a problem with pretty much every combo of buffs you can think of, that leads to an absolutely dumb and unfair strategy on some part of the killer roster... and I would happily wager, the problems would almost always be on B tier killers+.
A Survivor condition on the other hand, is universal, it is consistent, it gives the same value no matter who the killer is. That seems much more balancable and maintainable that trying to shoehorn in the same playstyle on killers that aren't compatible with it. Does it not?
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I said it multiple times. The main issue of DBD is how different killers are and how impossible they are to balance to be somwhat equally strong. I cam with idea, you might check it out.
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I think the main issue here is that doing stuff 20% slower is just awful and boring. It can also encourages survivors to play more aggressive by abusing anti-tunnel features/perks since it would be more efficient (and fun) to slowdown the killer than to sit with a 20% penalty on a gen.
Then, this penalty forces the devs to rework some perks such as Gift of Pain, Pentimento, or regression in general since they all become stronger due to the penalty. Blocking perks such as DMS, Deadlock, or Grim Embrace would also become less popular since you don't get value from the penalty if the gen is blocked anyway. Therefore, killers would move even more to regression perks as they pair well with the penalty.
Another problem is that this penalty helps stronger killers more than weaker once since Blight, Nurse, Billy, or Ghoul can often hook two or four survivors before the second gen pops which means they get more value than weaker killers.
Next, I don't like the idea in general because it punishes survivors for unhooking instead of killers for hooking. The result could be that survivors will now unhook much later or perks such as Reassure or the Felix perk becomes even more popular to keep the survivor on hook (a hooked survivor is much better than a survivor with a 20% penalty that forces the other ones not to sit on gens). It is already so stupid that a survivor can sit for 70 - 100 seconds on hook without any drawbacks and the game should not encourage this behaviour.
Overall, I think it would solve the tunnel problem, but it would create a new problem that is not better either. But don't get me wrong, I would like to see a basekit reward for killers that not tunnel and hook survivors.
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The smallest bit of help for survivors and look at all the complaining already. Even after killers are getting buff after buff. They think they should beat the best swf teams easily that are coordinated.
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If they make the Bloodlust significant mobility wise, then it will even the playing field in terms of mobility vs non-mobility powers when kicking gens.
Killers who use their power to get around won't benefit, as using the power cancels Bloodlust. However, Killers who don't have a mobility factor to their kit would be able to move more quickly to a gen to kick it.
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Not really any points I disgaree with there, bar maybe the leave survibor on hook argument, though I have a feeling thats because of a minunderstanding where fatigue is applied on hook instead of unhook... but of course that exacerbates other points you've raised.
The greater lethality killer benefitting more? I don't disagree... though to be honest, I can't think of any anti-tunnel solution where being able to kill really fast doesn't make those killers better than others... being mobile and lethal will always be king in this game no matter what we do... tbh.
Regardless though, you highlight good issues to consider.
Aye, this is true, to the effect of at least getting to a gen. Though the catching up part is still a problem, but this might be somewhat managable.
Regardless the current proposed 5% for 15s for bloodlust needs to be seriously jacked up both in soeed and time... and I still reckon it needs to reset your Bloodlust back to 0 once you enter chases either way.
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