UndeddJester's complete anti-tunnel/anti-slug suggestion
While I'm generally of the opinion that tunneling and slugging, or at least the threat of them, should be part of the game... the fact is the winds of change on these issues have been made clear...
The revert to bring neither of the effects from 9.3.0 in left the community very sour, and even I was sat of the opinion that walking back on everything was just not good... people obviously became mad to hell, and it capped off a very disappointing QoL initiative...
So it would seem that a huge rework of the game is off the cards, BHVR are looking for a relatively simple to implement but effective solution for the casual playerbase... so if we're gonna have to have some changes, I'd like to give it my best shot.
However, before I begin, I am of the opinion you can't really fix tunneling and slugging, they essentially key fundamental elements of the game, there will always be a time where you need to do things to create pressure... but if you're going to try to make it so there are more things to discourage it than there are for it, no single magic bullet will work. You need a mix of incentives and penalties, and even then, someone who is dead set on it to ruin someones day can't be stopped without a serious intervention that will cause more problems than it solves.
With that in mind, the core spirit of the game should be to limit Survivors weaponising effects as much as possible, while giving them defences/systems that decentivise tunneling right from the word go. Though this isn't necessarily what I think should be done for the game, this is the most genuine best shot I have of trying to bolster basekit Survivor defences vs. tunnelling and slugging, while also giving killers some basekit compensation so that majority of the cast aren't immediately thrown in the dirt as a result, and ofc trying to mitigate obnoxious styles of play from both sides.
I will also tackle perks that encourage tunneling, or Buff/Rework perks to incentivise a non tunnel/slug play style. For the sake of brevity I'll skip the reasoning of each change, but do feel free to ask if anything is unclear!
Tunneling Changes:
Basekit:
- Killer Buff: Add Corrupt Intervention partially basekit. Lasts for 60s.
- Survivor Buff: Elusive Status effect (no scratch marks, no pools of blood, no grunts of pain, aura immunity) added basekit when unhooked for the duration of basekit Borrow Time.
- New Mechanic: Entity Accursed (new name for Unique Hooks). When a Survivor is hooked they become "Entity Accursed", as their essence is the one currently being feasted on by the Entity, marked by their HUD portrait changed to a silhouette, with orange hue Entity claws surrounding them similar to the Obsession. (If animation team has time, make the Survivors eyes glow orange and a faint fog eminates off them).
- Survivor Nerf: The Entity Accursed Survivor suffers a 20% Conspicuous Action Penalty as the Entity feasts on their soul.
- Survivor Nerf: The conspicuous action penalty is halved to 10% and lingers for 60s after a new Survivor becomes Entity Accursed.
- Survivor Buff: If an Entity Accursed Survivor is hooked, the Killer angers the Entity by interrupting it's feast. To discourage a further interruption, the Entity grants this Survivor double the basekit Borrowed Time duration to 30s.
- Survivor Buff: If an Entity Accursed Survivor is hooked a second time consecutively, the Entity rejects the offering for 35 seconds (half the hook timer), leaving the Survivor on hook before being sacrificed and able to be unhooked. The unhooked bonuses for this survivor still apply.
- Survivor Toolbox Rework: Commodius Toolbox charges reduced from 32 charges to 24 charges. Engineer's Toolbox removed. Worn Tools Removed.
Killer Perk changes:
- Corrupt Intervention: extends basekit effect by 30/45/60s and the effect lasts a minimum of 60s.
- Dead Man's Switch: Only applies when hooking a none Entity Accursed Survivor.
- Friends 'Til The End: Increased aura read to 12s and Exposed to 24s on Obsession. When Obsession is hooked, the new Obsession is set before Entity Accursed is switched. Entity Accursed Survivor has a drastically reduced chance of becoming the Obsession.
- Grim Embrace: Perk disables when a Survivor dies.
- Pop Goes the Weasel: Hooking a Survivor grants 12% of the current progress bonus gen regression on the break action used on a generator. This effect is doubled when hooking a non Entity Accursed Survivor.
- Save The Best For Last: Buffed back to 5% per stack. Hitting a basic attack on a Entity Accursed Survivor will grant a stack on a non Obsession Survivor, but will not recover faster.
- Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance: Buffed to 25% gen regression. Perk disables when a Survivor dies.
Survivor Perk changes:
- Deliverance: Perk Rework. If you are hooked while Entity Accursed, your AFC bar is filled immediately to 100% and you can unhook yourself. Disables for the rest of the trial after a successful self unhook.
- Dead Hard: If used while Entity Accursed, the perk will only disable once you are no longer Entity Accursed.
- Fast Track: Gain an additional 0/1/2 tokens if the survivor hooked was Entity Accursed.
Slugging Changes:
Basekit:
- New Mechanic: Desperation: While in the dying state, if a Survivor has recovered to more than 50% recovery progress they unlock Desperation. Desperation can be triggered by hitting the sprint/rush button while crawling.
- Survivor Buff: While in Desperation, Survivors overexert themselves and move 50% faster, but make 50% louder grunts of pain and bleed out 75% faster, increasing to 125% after being in Desperation for more than 30 seconds. Staying still for 10 seconds will revert the Survivor back to the normal dying state.
- Survivor Buff: Survivors can use keys on hatch while in the dying state.
- Survivor Buff: Survivors can heal another downed Survivor while in the dying state with a 50% healing speed penalty.
- Killer Buff: When a Survivor dies and only one Survivor remains in the trial, if the last Survivor is not in the dying state, the killer gains killer instinct on the Survivor for 6 seconds.
Killer Perks:
- Territorial Imperative: Gains an additional effect of revealing the hatch within a 32m radius.
Survivor Perks:
- Boil Over: Perk Rework. 3 seconds after successfully being picked up by the killer, the Survivor uses all their strength to struggle on the killers shoulder. This will pause the wiggle the progression meter and in return apply a 40/50/60% hinder to the killers movement speed for 5 seconds, while increasing the struggle effects from wiggling by 100/125/150% for the duration (to offset the hinder). This effect lasts an additional 3 seconds if the Survivor is Entity Accursed.
- Left Behind: Gains an additional effect where if they are in the dying state when the last but them Survivor dies, they gain the ability to pick themselves up of the floor.
Final Word
That's what I've got. You've got a strong mix of basekit effects for both sides that assist their usual complaint points (i.e. tunneling and gen rushing), tied in with perk bonuses, perk limitations and counter perks to give some strong incentives and genuine reasons to avoid hard tunneling and slugging, while not completely removing them as valid elements and strategies of the game.
I realise this will probably not be to everyones liking, but if we're gonna have to eat some kind of anti-tunnel and anti-slug changes, this seems to be the most fair set up to me for both sides.
Cheer and have a good one.
Comments
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I feel like this is a really nice layout of ideas and changes! Honestly! Not perfect but better than what we have been offered.
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Thanks MW!
Trying to solve this thing is definitely a poisoned chalice... I don't think any suggestion can be made for this thing that wont be highly controversial...
I tried to compromise as much as possible and be as fair as I can to both sides. Fundamentally it is impossible to give a 100% effective solution for every possible scenario that isn't also abusable AF, and there is no way to make everyone happy with any tunneling or slugging change.
We are trying to change mechanics across a huge gulf of skill, across a huge roster of different killers with a massive disparity in strength, and trying to diminish what is effectively the most logical way to play... No matter how you slice it, in a 4vs1 game, no matter what game you try to design, the outnumbered side will always do well eliminating 1 person as fast as possible, and that is completely sensible and logical approach to that game. It is just not something you can get rid of without a lot of reasons to do so.
I'm not sure I compeltely support all of these changes myself tbh... but if the goal is to put a serious dent in tunneling, these seem like an OK start 🥴
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Sounds really good. Man definitely cooked. This should at least be considered for upcoming ptbs, if the topic of tunneling is addressed again.
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This is a pretty well-thought through idea, and the concept of the Entity Accursed status is a very interesting idea to try and make tunnelling less appealing. I do have concerns, though:
- To my understanding from reading, this mechanic would essentially become permanent on the last Survivor to get uniquely hooked, which doesn't feel intentional? I assume it'd actually work something like once every Survivor has experienced EA once, the last Survivor with EA has it expire over a minute like with the others
- I'm a little worried that EA status would still be used aggressively. It doesn't directly make looping easier, but the person with EA does naturally become the optimal Survivor to be engaging the Killer from the Survivor's POV. Maybe EA status could be cleansed over time by working on gens, in addition to the passive decay after another Survivor is marked, that way you could use EA status as an excuse to attempt a godlike chase performance, but more realistically you'd want to jump on a gen ASAP so your team has as little time as possible dealing with the status effect slowing down gen progress?
- On the inverse side, I also think Moris or mini-moris could be used to sidestep EA's biggest downside for Killers, which is that 35 second stay of execution for death hook. If you're bringing a mori, hard tunnelling an EA survivor would only really change that basekit Borrowed Time duration- I still think tunnelling someone out ASAP would remain optimal.
With some more workshopping I think these problems could be resolved though.
In general, I would be receptive to trying a system like this or inspired by it. BHVR's attempts this year have felt like they're trying a bit too much at once, but this feels more focused. I agree tunnelling/slugging should remain parts of the game, it's just a matter of altering the incentive structures. I'm personally especially in favor of the "slugged survivors can revive each other" idea, I've suggested something like it before and think it's worth trying on a PTB.
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Man, what an I possibly add? Every point there top draw. Great eye 😅
To my understanding from reading, this mechanic would essentially become permanent on the last Survivor to get uniquely hooked, which doesn't feel intentional? I assume it'd actually work something like once every Survivor has experienced EA once, the last Survivor with EA has it expire over a minute like with the others
Ah yes... slight oversight... 4 unique hooks though removing the effect seems a good idea. The Entity has tasted all 4 Survivors and thus is sated until the end of the trial. That seems a fair addition.
I'm a little worried that EA status would still be used aggressively. It doesn't directly make looping easier, but the person with EA does naturally become the optimal Survivor to be engaging the Killer from the Survivor's POV.
Solid point, and I like your suggestion here. Seems sound.
On the inverse side, I also think Moris or mini-moris could be used to sidestep EA's biggest downside for Killers, which is that 35 second stay of execution for death hook. If you're bringing a mori, hard tunnelling an EA survivor would only really change that basekit Borrowed Time duration- I still think tunnelling someone out ASAP would remain optimal.
That's a very solid point, hadn't considered that… the mini Moris are an issue, and off someone like Pig or Sadako, Myers, or Pyramid Head would have to be an exception. They might be fine due to the their lower mobility and alike....
Mori however are a definite concern. Would likely have to give Moris the same rule restrictions as the hooks and simply not allow them on an Entity Accursed Survivor... though that feels a bit of a cop out...
AnyAnyway absolute food to think on. Cheers man!
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BHVR needs to see this thread.
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It would all probably work well. Im just not feeling the whole glowing eyes thing for most of or half the match, the hud marker (orange claws) would be enough i think.
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That's fair, probably is a little on the nose.
I just wanted some kind of visual indicator on the actual Survivor model for the killer as to which Survivor is the one Accursed... the creepier the better 😏
Perhaps little shadow tendrils appear occasionally biting as the Survivors soul, or a shadowy traslucent silhouette of their soul occasionally thrashes in pain out of the character model, a bit like Sadako's demanifested form.
We can dream 😅
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Maybe it can show differently in their scratch marks, to better avoid following them specificly if ur avoiding the penalties. Like little tendrils n claws coming out of the marks
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generally good ideas 👍
there are just 2 points i would like to address. Corrupt idea sounds fine and fair for majority of killers, but it sounds unacceptable vs blight (and nurse to lesser degree) with lethal and corrupt perk - i don't think i need to explain more…
second point for your antislug - a lot of your suggestions solve the case when last survivor is on the ground, but IMO this is solved w basekit mori already (we can ignore other effects of this, but one positive thing is that the game ends quickly when downed as last person). But the excessive slugging is mostly problematic for when there are last 2 survivors. If one goes down and the other one hides, you get stalemate for up to 4 minutes provided killer does not extend this time. IMO these effects should kick in for last 2 survivors, or give option for one survivor to outright die after some time given to killer for fair chase potential (idk. 45s with your 6s of killer instinct?).
Anyway In most cases killer already won with last 2 survivors (basically guaranteed for 2+ gens left), so IDC how to solve it from balance pow, but make the game interesting or cut it short.
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Very true, and I only skipped talking about S tier killers to avoid muddying the discussion, but I'd have a hope that with Corrupt made partially Basekit, perhaps these killers can finally be afforded some actual nerfs.
I did try to hit more slug for the 4k stuff. The only reason I went for more defences on slugging is so that survivors do have options. None of these effects are insanely strong, but teh game is definitely not over with these changes once 4 man slugged. Seems a generally good move for the games health.
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Tunneling:
As an Entity Accursed Survivor, what incentive do I have to try to hide from the killer instead of taking chase, given I cannot repair generators/cleanse totem, etc. as fast as other survivors, and if hooked again, gain the benefit of an increased hook timer? Perhaps though I'm not good at chase, but I may have DStrike.
As an unhooker, what incentive do I have to make myself more conspicuous to the Killer and take chase, when I can repair gens faster than the unhooked survivor, may have more time to unhook the other survivor if they get downed again, and know the Killer may have a bit more of an incentive to find me than the unhooked survivor? But perhaps they're on death-hook.
Pain res is already meta. Does it really need a buff? In addition to the axing of toolboxes? Is more M1 gen simulator a good idea? Same thing with Pop. You're entrenching these to be even more meta picks and essentially form the game around them. Like old Dead Hard and DStrike. Especially paired together: Pain res → Pop the gen that regressed, also benefitting high mobility killers even more.
You've successfully made some perks that may actively entice the survivor to get tunneled, in addition to their base effects.
Slugging:
Desperation seems unnecessary, as part of an "anti-slugging" feature, but does seem to make being slugged a more interesting experience. Though I wonder if the sprint button could be incorporated in some manner: crawl faster but bleedout faster/more noise, with the speed increase based on recovery %.
Downed survivors being able to heal/stand each other up is interesting.
I'd say the Last survivor/all survivor bleedout situation should be addressed, but that was done via the abandon match feature. So then the concern is about heavy slugging while the Killer is occupying other survivors. (and making the dying state be a little more interesting mechanically), which the tandem pickup seems to address.
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Regarding slugging:
Yeah, being able to "sprint" while downed would certainly add at least an additional layer of agency/choice (even if it may not do all that much). I do think it should be as natural as just pressing the sprint button, but I agree the boost in speed shouldn't be accessible at full strength after immediately being downed.
And survivors being able to tandem pickup/heal while both in the dying state fits with the healing/team theme for the survivor role itself, and gives survivors a gameplay path to recover from a 4-man slug (not saying they'll win the match, but the agency is important).
As for being solo slugged: crawl to your team, if they don't pick you up, that's on the team. If you're the last alive, you have the abandon match feature. Though that being tucked in the corner it's possible new players don't notice it/don't know if pressing it immediately abandons, etc. May be helpful to have a tip show up on screen the first few times it pops up?
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I don't think Killer instinct on the last downed survivor is needed. You decided not to pickup.
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honestly why CANT you unlock hatch while I’m dying state? I’m surprised that’s not a game mechanic
But overall it’s great
I’m mixed on corrupt base kit
I love the buff where if you hook the same survivor they get the effects doubled that’s cool as hell
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Some strong points there for sure.
As an Entity Accursed Survivor, what incentive do I have to try to hide from the killer instead of taking chase, given I cannot repair generators/cleanse totem, etc. as fast as other survivors, and if hooked again, gain the benefit of an increased hook timer?
You can certainly decide to do that, though that is a pretty hefty risk to immediately go for deathhook given you only get the extended BT on your second hook, and it also assumes the killer doesn't hook someone else before you can take chase, and even if you do get your 2 hooks chase extended BT, you can still be effectively slugged for chase. I think playing the "hero" who takes constant chase is a skill expression that shouldn be an option to you.
As an unhooker, what incentive do I have to make myself more conspicuous to the Killer and take chase, when I can repair gens faster than the unhooked survivor.
I mean that's a decision. A second hook state is still second hook state, and unlike the old repair boost setup, a Survivor dying early is still not a desirable outcome. The killer only needs 1 other hook to be able to kill off a Survivor effectively like normal, so allowing a death hook Survivor early is still not a good idea for the long term effectiveness of the Survivor team as a whole.
Pain res is already meta. Does it really need a buff? In addition to the axing of toolboxes? Is more M1 gen simulator a good idea? Same thing with Pop. You're entrenching these to be even more meta picks and essentially form the game around them. Like old Dead Hard and DStrike. Especially paired together: Pain res → Pop the gen that regressed, also benefitting high mobility killers even more.
Well tbh, I would say Pain Res is not really meta for m1 killers. Pain Res relies on you being able to get downs consistently across the whole team, and many m1 killers cannot afford to hunt for all 4 players before the game runs away from them, and for Pop many M1 killers cant afford to keep stopping to kick gens... many m1 killers prefer Surge instwad for this reason. The problem is more pronounced especially if you hamper tunneling in that equation.
However you do make a fair point that this does make these perks better in the meta, amd consequently the S tier killers even better... However I would also hope these changes would result in finally some actually nerfs for said killers in truth. But yes, downsides could be enough for that equation.
Yeah, being able to "sprint" while downed would certainly add at least an additional layer of agency/choice (even if it may not do all that much). I do think it should be as natural as just pressing the sprint button, but I agree the boost in speed shouldn't be accessible at full strength after immediately being downed.
Glad you like it bro! That's the main thing I like about it, and truthfully I don't perceive slugging as being the huge problem many people do. The one issue it does have is that Suvivors crawl so slow, they can't move from/to location if they need to, to recover if the killer leaves them slugged. I feel like the fact the Survivors have more options and isn't the instant game ender it currently is would resolve a lot of the slugging frustrations, as well as make it not something you can 100% commit to as a winning scenario.
I don't think Killer instinct on the last downed survivor is needed. You decided not to pickup.
Hmmm? Killer Instinct is only granted when the Survivor is not slugged? The idea is it's a incentive to just go for the end game instead of slug, since you get a clue where to look.
Post edited by UndeddJester on0 -
You can certainly decide to do that, though that is a pretty hefty risk to immediately go for deathhook given you only get the extended BT on your second hook, and it also assumes the killer doesn't hook someone else before you can take chase, and even if you do get your 2 hooks chase extended BT, you can still be effectively slugged for chase. I think playing the "hero" who takes constant chase is a skill expression that shouldn't be an option to you.
It is a risk for sure. And you certainly can just be slugged, like the DStrike days. (Which means slugging may be more beneficial than before.)
The Killer certainly can ping pong between survivors, but this can also include the rescuer, which may be easily done via proxy-camping, with everything consolidated into one zone on the map.
As an aside: All players equally skilled, I agree playing the "hero" isn't something that should be done, but that can be volatile. I know in the SWF group I just started playing with, we've got a god looper survivor flashy main, a Killer main gen jockey, I tend to play Killer more when solo but do play survivor some too and am a somewhat decent looper, and someone who just started and has less than 20hrs in the game. Whiplash between match results is real, depending on who is the first to get found. (And I've found great use out of Jonah's Corrective Action Perk). I would much rather take chase for the fresh starter.
I mean that's a decision. A second hook state is still second hook state, and unlike the old repair boost setup, a Survivor dying early is still not a desirable outcome. The killer only needs 1 other hook to be able to kill off a Survivor effectively like normal, so allowing a death hook Survivor early is still not a good idea for the long term effectiveness of the Survivor team as a whole.
It is a decision, but certainly one the Killer is weighing too, potentially making that decision for the unhooker (by tunneling anyway). All depending on how bad it actually is (for Survivors) to have a survivor on deathhook that early.
Well tbh, I would say Pain Res is not really meta for m1 killers. Pain Res relies on you being able to get downs consistently across the whole team, and many m1 killers cannot afford to hunt for all 4 players before the game runs away from them, and for Pop many M1 killers cant afford to keep stopping to kick gens... many m1 killers prefer Surge instwad for this reason. The problem is more pronounced especially if you hamper tunneling in that equation.
Depending on how this all turns out with anti-tunneling/anti-camping, those same M1 Killers may see an increase in the ability to target different survivors, and as such the viability of these perks.
Hmmm? Killer Instinct is only granted when the Survivor is not slugged? The idea is it's a incentive to just go for the end game instead of slug, since you get a clue where to look.
Oh, gotcha. In that case I still don't think it's a great idea, since those looking for the 4K will likely still slug anyway to prevent the hatch from even being a possibility, and should the survivor bleedout after finding the other survivor alive, that's still a 4K.
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These could work.
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Oh, gotcha. In that case I still don't think it's a great idea, since those looking for the 4K will likely still slug anyway to prevent the hatch from even being a possibility, and should the survivor bleedout after finding the other survivor alive, that's still a 4K.
Aye this is true, though that's why I also gave the self pick up to Left Behind. This becomes a passive threat...
Do you leave a Survivor slugged and risk a Left Behind self pickup with a 32m hatch aura read? Or do you take the hook and get killer instinct?
Not great that it's a perk solution admittedly… but if someone gets sick of slugging for the 4k, at least they have a perk to choose, like taking DS/OTR if they get tired of tunneling.
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There are things I don't like about this, but it's better than some of the proposals I've seen. Some comments here:
-Very iffy about the Boil Over buff. That perk is already enormously powerful and usually forces a killer to drop someone on the floor immediately if they have it.
-Survivors under the effects of Entity Accursed should be penalized in some fashion for body blocking/taking a protection hit while still under the effects of unhook endurace.
-The various nerfs to generator perks over the past 2-3 years should be reverted.0 -
Fair play that man.
My goal with Boil Over is this perk is very much a throw perk most of the time, doing little more than annoying the killer majority of the time, but in select scenarios/maps makes the Survivor completely unhookable thanks to fall from height wiggle progress. This change removes that fall from height effect and instead makes the perk consistent. It costs the killer additional time, but because it pauses the wiggle timer, it doesn't assist in making the Survivor unhookable. Though you did clue me into a problem that it should probably be only triggered a single time per helath state.
The problem with the protection hits is that you as killer can force them, bypassing the effect through not fault of the survivors. Say you injure someone going in to unhook, you can then hit the Survivor off hook with impunity to get a protection hit, cause their teammate is within 16m. You could put a time limit on it... but that starts becoming arbitrary... how long is too long/short?
Aye I feel tying buffs to progression perks that reward none tunneling more is a strong way to go.
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However, before I begin, I am of the opinion you can't really fix tunneling and slugging, they essentially key fundamental elements of the game, there will always be a time where you need to do things to create pressure
Agree. Many people, the devs included, just try to remove tunneling and slugging from the game which is just not possible, it is part of the game and by trying to removing it, it will cause unhealthy issues or lose of skill expression. In my opinion, the goal should be to reduce it while removing the extremes like hard tunnling (hooking the same survivor three times in a row) while slugging gets solved by itself when hooking becomes better again.
Killer Buff: Add Corrupt Intervention partially basekit. Lasts for 60s.
I don't like that because it will make some maps (mainly indoor-maps) so much wrose while also increasing the gap between SoloQ and SWF. The last thing we need is a more unfair SoloQ experience. Instead, the devs should rework maps to make them less miserable in terms of size. For example, Saloon, Toba Landing, or Ormond Lake Mine are fair maps when it comes to size but Ormond Resort or Badham are way too big/lare and by the time you reach a gen, it is almost done.
Survivor Nerf: The Entity Accursed Survivor suffers a 20% Conspicuous Action Penalty as the Entity feasts on their soul.
There is already the issue that this also means a huge nerf to many fair perks such as Inner Strengh, Moment of Glory, or any other other perk that has something to do with a totem or chest.
I also just dislike the "slower gen"-penalty because from the survivor pov, this is just boring. In addition, if you hook a survivor that is pro-active with flashlight or pallet rescue, the penalty means nothing. In fact, survivors can abuse this feature and put the killer in a lose-lose-situation.
There is also the risk of unhealthy synergies of Mangeled and Gift of Pain to make healing/doing gens even more boring alongside the penalty.
Survivor Perk changes:
Deliverance: Perk Rework. If you are hooked while Entity Accursed, your AFC bar is filled immediately to 100% and you can unhook yourself. Disables for the rest of the trial after a successful self unhook.
Dead Hard: If used while Entity Accursed, the perk will only disable once you are no longer Entity Accursed.
good changes.
Fast Track: Gain an additional 0/1/2 tokens if the survivor hooked was Entity Accursed.
That perk needs a rework anyway because it is just a bad design. By the time you get value from it, the match is basically over. Instead, it should reward the player for good changes. Quick suggestion: "For every 15% gen-progress your team is doing while you're in chase, you gain 1 token and each token gives a generator instantly 3% progress". Numbers can be changed to make it fair and balanced but the perk should work in a rewarding doing good way, not in a rewarding for doing bad way.
Grim Embrace: Perk disables when a Survivor dies.
Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance: Buffed to 25% gen regression. Perk disables when a Survivor dies.
No, it is just a bad design when the killer gets punished for doing good. Both perks are fair and don't need this nerf as they have a fair requirement. In addition, PainRes relies so hard on RNG and on maps like Midwich, it is really difficult to get them. So, both perks are fine and don't need a nerf.
Save The Best For Last: Buffed back to 5% per stack. Hitting a basic attack on a Entity Accursed Survivor will grant a stack on a non Obsession Survivor, but will not recover faster.
I would kill for pre-nerf STBFL. However, the 5%-issue was that it made camping much stronger. It should go back to pre-nerf-version but with the downside that it does not work next to a hooked survivor to not make camping to strong.
Missing issues:
Resurgence needs a nerf because this perk punishes the killer for hooking and not tunnelling. A survivor should never be able to be fully healed in two seconds after unhook.
The 70 seconds hook-timer is still an issue: If you want a match where the killer has time to go for different survivors, they should also gain the pressure from a hooked survivor. Currently, a survivor on hook is completely fine and their teammates can just sit on gens and get them done while still having enough time to unhook.
SoloQ and SWF gab: SoloQ needs more basekit aura reading to deal better with slugging or hooking situations. The big difference between SWF and SoloQ is that SWF has less downtime because they know who is going for the resuce and when or if they need help or just sit on gens. It would also make the game so much easier to balance when we have a baseline when it comes to survivor. Currently, the devs tried to give so much op basekit anti-stuff to survivors based on SoloQ, which would have been broken when used by either SWF or strong SoloQ players. The best QoL stuff/buff you can give is that type that helps weaker players but is useless for the stronger ones.
There is still the issue that hooking feels clunky in many situations and survivors can put you in a lose lose situation when they go down under a pallet. Sometimes you also slug because you don't have the time to hook. This means, BGP needs a nerf, picking up and carrying should be faster than currently.
Blindness needs a rework if you wanna reduce slugging since Blindness is so strong against SoloQ and makes slugging so much easier.
Some killers like Singularity or Krasue gets punished for hooking survivors and need a compensation for it. In general, some killers should get some hooking rewards.
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Cheers for the feedback man, some point I do agree with there, though some I don't. To tackle the ones I don't:
I don't like basekit Corrupt because it will make some maps (mainly indoor-maps) so much wrose while also increasing the gap between SoloQ and SWF. The last thing we need is a more unfair SoloQ experience. Instead, the devs should rework maps to make them less miserable in terms of size.
I don't really see how corrupt increases the gap between SoloQ and SWF, all Survivors regardless of SWF or not have to brave the centre of the map to start working on gens. That doesn't change whether you're SWF or not. Anyone with experience enough to make valid map flcallouts on gen locations in a SWF, is not someone who is gonna struggle finding gens in SoloQ.
The problem is that reducing map size, as well as being MUCH more work that BHVR won't do for years, if ever, is it still favours faster killers massively. Look at a map like Dead Sands or Haddonfield. These maps are small and tough to beat even m1 killers on because you often in the process of looping step on your teammates toes doing gens. On your meta picks, these maps are a done deal, you aren't breaking anything, and Survivors are getting run over on these maps unless they are an uber coordinated SWF ensuring they aren't bringing the killer across progressing gen targets.
Corrupt is a perk that primarily benefits m1 killers, allows us to have map variety, and is a universal effect that once the killer gets a down disables. It smoothes out the differences between all killers and maps to be more consistent on the pressure both sides can exert at the start of the trial.
There is already the issue that this also means a huge nerf to many fair perks such as Inner Strengh, Moment of Glory, or any other other perk that has something to do with a totem or chest.
These actions are significantly faster than gens. Chests take only an asditonal 2 seconds, totems take an additional 3.5s, and both cases these can be loaded up/partially loaded beforehand. The effect could be limited to repairs and healing mind you.
I also just dislike the "slower gen"-penalty because from the survivor pov, this is just boring. In addition, if you hook a survivor that is pro-active with flashlight or pallet rescue, the penalty means nothing. In fact, survivors can abuse this feature and put the killer in a lose-lose-situation.
I see what you're saying but the fact is, if you want tunneling reduced, you have to make the unhooked Survivor a less desirable target somehow. There is only 1 killer... they can only be in chase with 1 person, and if you want that person to not be the easiest person to kill off, having that Survivor being less effective at pushing gens compared yo everyone else while you chase other Survivors is a genuine incentive not to tunnel that Survivor. You could just as well argue that without such a penalty to repair speed the other Survivors are stuck crunching gens, while 1 Survivors gets all the action... isn't that worse?
The unhook bonuses only come in after you are unhooked a second time from consecutive hooks from the killer, and even that only gives you double the base BT... Being on Death hook and playing aggressive when a single other unique hook is all the killer needs to kill you off... is a risk that the Survivor has a right to take if they desire, but it is hardly oppressively abusable any more than OTR used to be.
There is also the risk of unhealthy synergies of Mangeled and Gift of Pain to make healing/doing gens even more boring alongside the penalty.
These effects/perks are niche at best currently. Especially with the pelthora of healing perks, mangled basically does nothing. When was the last time you used mangled in a build because you actually wanted mangled? GoP may need a look to tone down a tad, but again, that's not something that couldn't be tweaked with this effect in mind, however the fact is the stacked effect can only be on 1 Survivor at a time, and only serves to make this Survivor even less of a target.
No, it is just a bad design when the killer gets punished for doing good. Both perks are fair and don't need this nerf as they have a fair requirement.
What is "playing good" in this scenario? Killing off a Survivor ASAP? I thought the general opinion was that tunneling doesn't take much skill to do, especially as a full sweat Blight or Nurse. This is an higher tier killer problem, as higher tiers can tunnel out a Survivor while still retaining all of their strong perk effects.
M1 killers don't tend to get the value out of these perks to anywhere near the same degree. It is not at all uncommon to never get the full Grim Embrace or all Pain Res uses before the gens all pop on m1 killers. If the goal is to decentivise tunneling, you have to give reasons to not just tunnel a Survivor out if you want to curb tunneling. The perks being strong, but disabling if you tunnel someone out is another layer on the reasons we're trying to hit here.
Resurgence needs a nerf because this perk punishes the killer for hooking and not tunnelling. A survivor should never be able to be fully healed in two seconds after unhook.
I get that and I did consider Resurgence. I only didn't touch it because a Survivor being healed quickly off hook, is itself an inventive not to tunnel, especially if they now have this Conspicuous Action Penalty. But I do feel this perk was always good in the first place, especially since Sloppy Butcher got nerfed.
The 70 seconds hook-timer is still an issue
Also don't disagree here, but this too gives a string reason to go off and pursue other Survivors instead of lingering near hook. I think it was a bit much, but I didn't want to deviate from the goal with this thread 😅
Blindness needs a rework if you wanna reduce slugging since Blindness is so strong against SoloQ and makes slugging so much easier.
This one is on my radar... I haven't thought of a better idea than limiting it to yellow auras on Survivors, red Survivor auras go through... and ofc white auras for killer items. That's clunky and inelegant though... but might just have to be a compromise.
Some killers like Singularity or Krasue gets punished for hooking survivors and need a compensation for it. In general, some killers should get some hooking rewards.
I don't disagree, I hate how Krasue's power is pointless busy work really... but currently I don't have a better idea sadly 🥺
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It's about not wasting time with looking for blocked gens. In a SWF, you can split up and call out which generators are blocked, which comes really handy. In SoloQ, two survivors run a common gen spawn just to see its blocked, which is wasted time.
The problem is that reducing map size, as well as being MUCH more work that BHVR won't do for years, if ever, is it still favours faster killers massively. Look at a map like Dead Sands or Haddonfield. These maps are small and tough to beat even m1 killers on because you often in the process of looping step on your teammates toes doing gens. On your meta picks, these maps are a done deal, you aren't breaking anything, and Survivors are getting run over on these maps unless they are an uber coordinated SWF ensuring they aren't bringing the killer across progressing gen targets.
Corrupt is a perk that primarily benefits m1 killers, allows us to have map variety, and is a universal effect that once the killer gets a down disables. It smoothes out the differences between all killers and maps to be more consistent on the pressure both sides can exert at the start of the trial.
Haddonfield is a special map. The middle is a very important part that can give the killer a lot of information if the survivors don't pay much attention to their positions or if you managed to hook a survivor in the open. However, the main issue on this map are the generators because you will always have three generators in a building (house of pain, mainbuilding, and in both other houses). There is also a generator sometimes behind a building. You only have the two generators on the street and the one to mainbuilding that are easy to check. The other ones are difficult to check and you need to go to them to know if someone is working on them. In addition, these generators are also difficult to reach. So, the main issue for this map is not the size (it is completely fine even for non-mobility killers) but the gen position. Dead Sand, on the other hand, has good visibility on generators and you can check them from afar and sometimes you have good gen position to defend them. For M1 killers, completely fine.
However, basekit Corrupt is just a band aid fix because after the 60 seconds basekit, Ormond or Badham are still insanely large and gens are difficult to check. I would rather have smaller maps than basekit Corrupt. Sure, this takes some time but I rather have a good solution than a solution that is still bad. The killer that cause more problems due to their mobility are primarily Nurse and Blight which still need a change. In addition, I don't wanna have tiny maps, I wanna have maps that are inbetween Saloon and Ormond Lake Mine.
What is "playing good" in this scenario? Killing off a Survivor ASAP? I thought the general opinion was that tunneling doesn't take much skill to do, especially as a full sweat Blight or Nurse. This is an higher tier killer problem, as higher tiers can tunnel out a Survivor while still retaining all of their strong perk effects.
M1 killers don't tend to get the value out of these perks to anywhere near the same degree. It is not at all uncommon to never get the full Grim Embrace or all Pain Res uses before the gens all pop on m1 killers. If the goal is to decentivise tunneling, you have to give reasons to not just tunnel a Survivor out if you want to curb tunneling. The perks being strong, but disabling if you tunnel someone out is another layer on the reasons we're trying to hit here.
You said that PainRes and GE deactivate when a survivor dies - correct me if I'm wrong but there is no mentioned of "if you tunnel". There is a huge difference when a survivor dies at three hooks or when survivor A has two hooks, survivor B as one hook, survivor C has two hooks, and survivor D dies at one generator. What is the point of playing nice but still getting punished, especially with the risk that I might still have two PainRes token left due to bad hook RNG but I might get it on the last hook to deny the last gen from popping. You also don't make killers stop tunneling by giving to perks this requirement as there are still other ones.
These actions are significantly faster than gens. Chests take only an asditonal 2 seconds, totems take an additional 3.5s, and both cases these can be loaded up/partially loaded beforehand. The effect could be limited to repairs and healing mind you.
But still. There is no reason to shadow nerf fair perks and encourage players to only run the strongest perks in the game (SB, Lithe, UB, Conviction, Vigil ect.). If anything, it should be the opposite that strong perks should be limited and fair perks are easier.
I also wanna have old Mangeled and Haemorrhage back. The timer nerf was the worst thing ever as it made so many addons, perks, and builds useless for no reason while Survivors go many strong healing perks or buffs.
I get that and I did consider Resurgence. I only didn't touch it because a Survivor being healed quickly off hook, is itself an inventive not to tunnel, especially if they now have this Conspicuous Action Penalty. But I do feel this perk was always good in the first place, especially since Sloppy Butcher got nerfed.
Resurgence was always a good perk but no one used it because it wasn't op at this point. Then, the devs overbuffed it so it became an op perk and nowadays player use it.
The difference is still that you have more slowdown when a survivor needs at least 8, 10, or normal 16 seconds to heal the unhooked survivor instead of three seconds. On a more personal opinion note, it is also so stupid that a survivor can be healed in three seconds after getting unhooked.
This one is on my radar... I haven't thought of a better idea than limiting it to yellow auras on Survivors, red Survivor auras go through... and ofc white auras for killer items. That's clunky and inelegant though... but might just have to be a compromise.
My suggestion was to split aura reading in teammate and general aura reading: Blindness no longer affects teammate aura (hooked survivor, bond, Emphatic Connection ect.) but only general aura reading (Deja Vu, WoO, killer aura from Kindred or Wire Trap). In the same way, we could buff other perks with an additional Blindness bonus to make them better.
I don't disagree, I hate how Krasue's power is pointless busy work really... but currently I don't have a better idea sadly 🥺
Me too. I always thought it should be like Wesker that the unhooked survivor has infection at 1%, which still prevents a tunnel but still gives the fungus slowdown.
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It's about not wasting time with looking for blocked gens. In a SWF, you can split up and call out which generators are blocked, which comes really handy. In SoloQ, two survivors run a common gen spawn just to see its blocked, which is wasted time.
I mean that's not an impossible outcome... however I think your not thinking about how DBD is now and how it would be with this change. Remember all Survivors spawn together now in the same location, and also know that Corrupt is in place because now its there every single game.
You also know the ones near you in vast majority of cases are gonna be blocked, and that means everyone has to go out into the map to find a gen, and if you go out to the gens, Survivors discover the same gens at the same time even in a SWF. Going apart, by the time you verify that a gen is available, another Survivor walking the opposite direction is more often than not better off carrying on to find another instead of banking back to the gen you've found... the value of the callout is basically trivial.
So, the main issue for this map is not the size (it is completely fine even for non-mobility killers) but the gen position. Dead Sand, on the other hand, has good visibility on generators and you can check them from afar and sometimes you have good gen position to defend them
Yes, but isn't this the issue of these maps? Positioning is a moot point on a mobile killer, in order to break 3 gens, you must take the killer away from gens to break the middle of the map. Sometimes that means not looping optimally at every tile and taking a hit you could otherwise avoid, just to make sure you can actually get the killer away from a key gen at the right moment. Same thing for tunneling, its so important to ensure you take the killer as far from hooks as you can, even if you have to expend a helath state to do it, so that them returning to tunnel is as costly as it can be... That doesn't work if all maps are small, you can't effectively take the killer away, especially if they're highly mobile.
Though... I don't disagree with you regarding Ormond and Badham, they are too big, and you have aimed for Dead Dawg and alike... whivh is smart... however the point remains, that even on these maps, Corrupt is the biggest equaliser for m1 killers and lower mobility killers. It means you don't get bum rushed out of gate and lose 2 or 3 gens on your first chase. If you play M1 killers regularly, there isn't a single perk that helps you out more that Corrupt, whether Survivors hide through it, or rush into the map, or whatever. There is no perk that helps them get a foot in the game better, and it doesn't really help S tiers... the value of Corrupt dimishes vastly if you can down in 20s flat.
You said that PainRes and GE deactivate when a survivor dies - correct me if I'm wrong but there is no mentioned of "if you tunnel". There is a huge difference when a survivor dies at three hooks or when survivor A has two hooks, survivor B as one hook, survivor C has two hooks, and survivor D dies at one generator.
That's not an unreasonable point, you could give it minimum hook requirement, though that is getting clunky. I believe this downside is much simpler to understand, and is why I also buffed the perks regression value to compensate. By taking this perk, one of the stronger regression perks in the game, this is the agreed trade off the perk gives; you can decide to take a kill before your 4th pain res, or keep hunting for the last pain res. It gives reasons to invest in particular aura perks to make sure you can get all 4 procs, or use other perks instead that don't have that limitation... the perk doesn't die because of it, it becomes a factor of your build, and decentivises stacking full slowdown. Having such a tangible downside allows greater potential strength, with an appropriate trade off, this is what encourages diversity as you may opt for ab"safer" but less strong perk instead.
My more subjective personal opinion is that this also evens up the value of the perk between S tiers vs. lower tiers. M1 killers do not generally get the full benefit of pain res and grim embrace, especially if they don't stretch their already limited perk budget to assist in finding people and/or improving their chase... while S tier killers do, and can do so even while happily tunneling away, where a 20% remote regression vs. a 3 man is absolutely devastating.
But still. There is no reason to shadow nerf fair perks and encourage players to only run the strongest perks in the game (SB, Lithe, UB, Conviction, Vigil ect.). If anything, it should be the opposite that strong perks should be limited and fair perks are easier.
Yeah that's reasonable. I'd happily rejig the basekit effect to be healing and gen repair only.
I also wanna have old Mangeled and Haemorrhage back. The timer nerf was the worst thing ever as it made so many addons, perks, and builds useless for no reason while Survivors go many strong healing perks or buffs.
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Resurgence was always a good perk but no one used it because it wasn't op at this point. Then, the devs overbuffed it so it became an op perk and nowadays player use it.
The timer nerf was the worst thing ever as it made so many addons, perks, and builds useless for no reason while Survivors go many strong healing perks or buffs.
Preaching to the choir on that one man. XD
I didn't get why anti healing perks got nerfed while healing perks got buffed up the wazzoo… and admitted all that I got really annoyed that Botany got made even better than all these really strong options.
I'm not keen on the permanent effect, but I don't get why you buff one side and nerf the other aides counter... makes more sense from a anti-tunnel initiative... but that's what we already hope to solve with these changes so... hope?
My suggestion was to split aura reading in teammate and general aura reading: Blindness no longer affects teammate aura (hooked survivor, bond, Emphatic Connection ect.) but only general aura reading (Deja Vu, WoO, killer aura from Kindred or Wire Trap). In the same way, we could buff other perks with an additional Blindness bonus to make them better.
To be fair... maybe BHVR are onto it with these white auras they brought in for Springtrap ... perhaps they switch all game critical auras to white auras, and these are not affected by Blindness... but all other auras are. That seems pretty clean... I might make that suggestion. 😅
Me too. I always thought it should be like Wesker that the unhooked survivor has infection at 1%, which still prevents a tunnel but still gives the fungus slowdown.
Yeah that works better. Nice.
Just wanna say, even if we don't see 100% eye to eye man, has been fun to debate with yourself! 😁🤘
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