http://dbd.game/killswitch
Anti slug/tunnel suggestions that are reasonable
Here are a few simple suggestions for anti slug/tunnel that wouldnt break any current form of gameplay and shouldn't be able to be abused.
- Put a camp meter on slugs. Works the same way as the hook radius, if the killer slugs they can't just sit on top of the body, allowing for someone to actually be rescued. This prevents killers from hanging out next to someone they slugged to bleed them out when they have zero hooks. This could also be disabled in endgame, similar to hook timers.
- Remove the loud noise notification on unhook. This loud noise pretty much begs the killer to come back and tunnel the unhooked survivor.
- Add a small delay to the HUD on killer side for interactions like unhooking and healing from the downed state. This rewards survivors who are stealthy/able to get past the killer undetected to unhook/pick up a teammate when the killer is proxy camping. It would give them time (5 or 10 seconds would be plenty) to move away from the location before the killer sees they are gone on the HUD.
Most of us aren't asking for free pick ups or extreme changes, as we saw the way they could be abused in the PTBs. These are just some small QOL changes that would help prevent tunneling/slugging that I can't see a way could be misused.
Edit: I just recalled another suggestion that fits here.
4. The bleed out timer (amount of time a survivor has to be slugged before they die) should regenerate when a survivor is healthy. If a survivor is able to recover to the healthy state, they should have a passive regeneration of dying state health. Alternatively, a new med kit add-on that recovers some of your dying state bar could be interesting (or both).
Comments
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These ideas have all been tried out on PTBs in some shape or form and have all failed. Playing strategically needs to stop being punished and instead get expanded into new horizons.
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This statement simply isn't true. The PTBs had much more extreme anti tunnel and slug rules (such as survivors being able to pick themselves up) that made those iterations fail.
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All you've done is introduce diet versions of those ideas. This time around, they'll only be slightly less unhealthy.
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You have yet to make an argument to why any of these ideas wouldn't work. I assume your concern is mainly the first suggestion. How I see it, anti camp is anti camp lol. It shouldn't matter if a survivor is dying on the ground or dying on the hook. It would be the exact same mechanic, different location. This seems pretty reasonable to me. Changes slugging from "oh I'm going to ruin one survivor's game by putting them in the dying state and using them to bait their teammates or bleed to death and move to the next" to "i'm going to leave this guy here because i know his whole crew has flashies and i'm going to go kick a gen and do my other objectives"
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My argument is those PTBs. You don't get to just discredit all that proof because you don't like to be reminded of the failures of these ideas.
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You've literally got zero words of your own? Lol okay.
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Your ideas and responses aren't substantial enough to warrant anything longer.
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so lets break it down one by one
#1 why should the killer be punished for using altruism? and what if the survivor is under a pallet or the other survivors have flashies toolboxes etc? are killer just supposed to give them the free pickup?
#2 Why remove critical information from the killer? (then we should also removve survivors being downed on their HUD etc)
#3 Again why remove critical information1 -
#1 you are failing to understand the root of the problem here, which is entirely blocking another player from participating in normal gameplay. it is extremely unfun to lay on the ground bleeding out for an entire match because your team is unabale to get you. they added anti camp on the hooks for the exact same reason, so someone isnt trapped there the entire game. i'm not saying that once this camp meter fills they can pick themselves up for free for the rest of the match, but each instance should have an anticamp timer, similar to the hooks. its a very simple concept with a mechanic that is already in the gamr and works.
#2 this isnt removing critical information, this is deterring people from instantly returning to the hook and going after the unhooked survivor, for the sane reasons stated previously.
#3 i'm not saying to remove it, simply add a couple of seconds of delay. i'd be fine with it on the survivor side too. the only argument against this is that this will only really affect soloq players, which is biggest player base struggling with the killer "strategy" of BMing another human and refusing them to participate in the game.
while i understand the sluggling and camping strategy and why it works, the reason for these change of mechanics is for the health of the game. all 5 people who queue into a match should be able to participate in normal gameplay. the first person to get downed shouldn't just be put to an instant death sentence (which is what that is when you are soloq) when you are meant to have 2 hook states before you die.
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a ton of survivor tools already have been gutted and i'm fine with it. not sure where you are getting this idea from. these suggestions are extremely mild compared to what we have seen in the PTBs, yet you are saying those are the argument to why these won't work. you're comparing apples to oranges and acting like it makes sense.
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I have not attacked you in an ad hominem manner. You are making stuff up to justify your own antagonism.
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i respectfully asked for you to expand on your argument because "the PTBs!!! waaaah!" is a really bad one. You were rude in response, so I matched your energy. That's on you <3
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You said that I insulted you but have yet to provide any examples, which leads me to the conclusion that you don't match energy; this just is your energy.
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It's literally right there in your comment. You were rude first. You can think what you want of me and that doesn't make it true. On a real note, you clearly don't have anything useful to add to this discussion so I will no longer be replying to you.
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Which comment? You keep making this claim without any clear proof.
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That's not an ad hominem attack.
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It was still rude. Respectfully, get off my post if you aren't going to contribute to the actual discussion. Thanks!
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Criticizing your ideas because they're merely copies of failed ones from prior PTBs is rude? Did you make this post just to have an echo chamber?
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How about you just stop your agressive postings? Your first post was an obvious lie and afterwards you still tried to defend your lie.
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If it's so obvious, then tell me how it's a lie.
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I was trying to have a discussion where you actually say something to back up yout point so I can understand your POV but you are refusing to participate in said discussion. I've explained multiple times that comparing this to past PTBs is comparing apples to oranges. You have yet to explain your own logic other than just "the PTB!!" when I've already explained how that logic doesn't make sense.
- Comparing an anticamp timer on a slug to the previous 90 seconds of slugging giving you a permanant self recovery doesn't make sense, as the entire mechanic is different and it adds rules that protect the killer. It is also entirely different than the 120 second version with the buff for multiple downed survivors. Anticamp on hook works. Being in the dying state should not put a survivor in a worse position than being on the hook. That is literally rewarding killers for not participating in normal gameplay. If the killer doesn't want to pick a survivor up, it should be for reasons other than to avoid anticamp on a hook.
- This was only in 9.2.0, which had a ton of incredibly broken things added to the mix. We have yet to see what simply taking away the notification would do. If the killer doesn't detect a survivor approaching the hook, they should not be rewarded with free information. The survivor could do everything right in this situation and still get tunneled because the killer knows the instant they are unhooked, even if they aren't aware enough to see the unhook themselves.
- Entirely different from the 9.2.0 PTB l, which masked the HUD entirely for the killer. This is a few second grace period to give the unhooked survivor a chance to get somewhere safe.
Clearly, these are not the same as the PTBs. Hence why I'm making the argument that your argument has no substance to it.
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As I've said before, these are diet versions of failed ideas that would only be slightly less unhealthy than their PTB counterparts. Implementing any of them in any shape or form would only punish Killers for playing strategically even more than they already are.
Since this conversation regarding a shallow suggestion has resulted in you attacking me, personally, for criticizing your ideas, I am muting this discussion.
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Sounds good man, sad to see you still have nothing of substance to say. I gave a detailed explanation as to why this is not true and either you didn't read it or don't have the comprehension skills to understand it. I was open to a conversation about this but you don't have any reasons why this wouldn't work or would be a bad idea so I'm having a difficult time seeing your point of view. Claiming it's a diet version of the PTBs doesn't make sense. They obviously tried to implement anti tunnel/slug for a reason, saying that they shouldn't try again in a different manner is like saying is like saying that reason no longer exists when it most definitely does.
You were incredibly rude with your response, but you can keep pretending mine was unwarranted if it helps you sleep better at night. I know you were only here to ragebait and that's fine. I hope the devs can see past your pointless comments and actually read the discussion about the post itself.
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Well, these are not as polished as you believe they are, especially point 1, you missed a rather important issue with it. But let's take it one at a time
For point 1, it is very much abusable in the hands of swf or coordinated players. You should take into account, that killers don't always have safe conditions to pick up a survivor. What if a survivor was downed right under a pallet, and another one is nearby ready to save, and you are not a nurse who can just ignore that? Well, the killer ends up in a lose-lose-lose scenario. Their choice ends up as follows:
1) Pick up the survivor, most likely outcome: survivor is saved via pallet stun, or even flashlight save.
2) Do a back and forth with the other survivor, most likely outcome: The bar fills up, survivor picks themselves up, meanwhile 2 gens are being repaired, 0 pressure gained
3) Leave the slug, commit to the other survivor, forces 1 survivor to actually come and save, but you will be now too far to punish that or use that to make more pressure
No matter what killer does, they end up in a disadvantage. If the player feels like their choice doesn't matter, aka feel powerless, this leads to easy frustration with the game, I would advise to think of ways which do not punish one of the sides severely like that.
As for points 2 and 3, they are kind of similar so I guess I can cover them both. It wasn't great on ptb that killer gets robbed of a pretty crucial information which they might use not for camping/tunneling, but to have the general idea of survivor's whereabouts and, if they have a clear line of sight even if far away, their possible location if they move away from hook right away.
As my general opinion on the matter of slugging/tunneling, I barely ever face slugging as legit strategy so I don't understand the general frustration with it, therefore can't really say much. Tunneling however is something I face quite often, and find only the hard tunneling to be problematic, especially when done by already S tier killers. The solution however to hard tunneling I feel doesn't lie in the nerfing of the tunneling, but in encouraging spreading hooks, because as of right now, you actually do not gain any advantage from spreading hooks, except for perks, but those benefit you after tunneling as well.If we go with encouraging spreading hooks, then it must be something really tempting for killers to do, otherwise it will never beat the benefit of hard tunnel. And it's a great benefit indeed, we all know the regular situation of 1 hooked, 1 chased, 1 saving and 1 repairing. If you remove 1 survivor, the 1 repairing suddenly vanishes from the equation. That's why I would think more into encouraging hook spread instead
Post edited by Artimenius1307 on1 -
Your argument for point 1 makes zero sense. Anticamp timer pauses when another survivor is nearby. Not sure how many hours you have in this game to not know how that mechanic works whatsoever.... Maybe you were just ignorant IDK.
For points 2 and 3: why is the killer being rewarded with information from an event that can be done stealthily? I'm not saying erase the HUD for unhooks on killer side (as we saw in the first ptb). i'm saying there should be a small delay so survivors can move away from the area before the killer is alerted. This isn't taking away the information, it is simply adjusting the timing in which it is shared. This would counter the hard tunneling that you are complaining about by giving the injured survivor a moment to go somewhere else and avoid another chase/recover.
As for personally not experiencing slugs, good for you? I personally see it in about 1/3 of my matches, so it feels like a problem to me.
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Ah, see, this is where you missed why point 1 is abusable. Like bhvr in some cases, you didn't cover all possible scenarios when you were thinking about the situations which might arise. The anti-camp system, which is pretty flawed, is somewhat covered due to timer of the hooked survivor being only 70 seconds per stage, this timer, if implemented for slugs, would be far bigger for the downed survivor due to no stage therefore no rush, so the flaws of anti camp system will be much more dominant in slugging cases. As for my argument being pointless, you seem to ignore that perks will very much enable the abuse, especially perks like Background Player. Not saying it's gonna happen often, it's not like dbd is filled to the brim with bully squads like it used to, but it can still very much happen
As for point 2-3, it's naive to believe that delaying info will do anything at all to hard tunneling, I mean, let's take a look at the flaw of the camping system: if people wanna camp, they now stand at a distance and immediately go in once they see another survivor going for a save, resulting in the system being more of a cosmetic one. Absolutely same thing will happen here, the killer who wants to tunnel 1 survivor out will simply be in a position where they can tell that the survivor got unhooked. So in the end, this hurts more those killer players that want to use the unhook notification as information, after all delayed info is far less valuablePost edited by Artimenius1307 on0 -
The anti-camp system, which is pretty flawed, is somewhat covered due to timer of the hooked survivor, this timer, is far bigger for the downed survivor, so the flaws of anti camp system will be much more dominant in slugging case.
Wow, this was a difficult sentence to read but let me try to break it down. You're saying that the anti-camp is affected by the hook timer? It isn't. Anti-camp is purely based on how long the killer is in proximity. If you're trying to make the argument that the anti-camp timer is similar to the time to reach second state, sure, I guess? I'm still not sure what you are implying with how this will affect the slug situation. In a purely hypothetical situation, if they were to implement this, I would imagine the anti-camp would be the same length for the slugged survivor as it is for hooked. This makes sense because when you reach the end of a slug timer, you die, not move to another hook stage. Additionally, the slugged survivor has to be fully recovered before they can pick themselves up. If I totally understood you wrong please feel free to elaborate.
As for my argument being pointless, you seem to ignore that perks will very much enable the abuse, especially perks like Background Player.
I understand how background player can be frustrating to face as killer, but I still don't think that's a valid argument for not adding an anti-camp timer to slugs. If you are saying perks like this are a reason a killer doesn't want to pick someone up, sure that is true, but it isn't a reason to stand there and refuse to let that survivor participate in normal gameplay for the rest of the match. You chase away nearby survivors and pick up, or you leave them there. If you aren't camping, they wouldn't be able to pick themselves up (unless they have a perk to do so), so another person would have to come get them, meaning you have one in chase and two off of a gen to get this heal figured out, leaving only one to be working on a generator. That's a wonderful situation for the killer to be in, the survivors can't put on any pressure at all.
As for point 2-3, it's naive to believe that delaying info will do anything at all to hard tunneling
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if people wanna camp, they now stand at a distance and immediately go in once they see another survivor going for a save, resulting in the system being more of a cosmetic one. Absolutely same thing will happen here, the killer who wants to tunnel 1 survivor out will simply be in a position where they can tell that the survivor got unhooked
If a killer wants to hard tunnel, you are correct that they are going to keep going after that person. These small changes would just make that a more difficult task. I would love to see other things, but I saw how easily they can be misused in the wrong hands. This, on the other hand, isn't really an exploitable mechanic. There are a lot of ways to sneak by the killer and avoid line of sight (especially if they are just standing in one spot staring), so this would reward survivors for being sneaky. Not saying it would resolve every case of tunneling ever, but it would help with a good chunk of them at least. If you have a better suggestion I'm all ears.
So in the end, this hurts more those killer players that want to use the unhook notification as information, after all delayed info is far less valuable
The information is only delayed for a few seconds according to my suggestion. If the killer isn't trying to tunnel, why would they need to know the precise time someone was let off hook? Not to mention, they would still know, as the amount of time before the HUD changes would be set so they could go "oh Nea got off the hook 4 seconds ago" and do with that information as they will. I agree that it is valuable information for the killer to receive, just maybe not that it needs to be instantaneous.
I just want to make it clear that I'm not trying to argue whether or not anti slug/tunnel should exist here. BHVR already thinks it should or else they wouldn't have tested these changes out twice in PTBs and would not have spent an entire year saying they were working on it. With this in mind, what I have suggested in the original post is the healthiest way I can imagine any changes being made. If you have something better to suggest I would love to hear it, but "they shouldn't change anything to fix this" isn't a good enough answer for me here, considering they spent all of last year trying to address it.
Thank you for providing your thoughts and feedback on my suggestion, it was nice to actually hear a written concern rather than the previous comments that only claim the PTB proves this won't work. Like, the PTBs were much more intense and had way more going on than what I've suggested in this post. I do genuinely like to hear what killer mains are thinking, though, so we can discuss and either come to an agreement or try to meet at a middle ground somewhere. Its frustrating trying to have these discussions when all anyone wants to do is be rude for no reason.
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I have edited my previous message to make it clearer, it was indeed messy in the anti-camp timer part. As you could probably tell, I am not a big fan of how anti camp system works in dbd, since I find it to be mostly a cosmetic system which invades into killer's freedom more than it should and isn't nearly as detailed as it should be, while not really doing anything regarding camping really (To be quite honest I don't think it should I never found camping to be a big issue excluding cases with one shot killers or specific ones which can deny the hook entirely, like Doctor). It's partially why I don't agree with similar suggestion of copypasting the system for slugging as well
As for your example which cases to cover with anti-slug timer, I am genuinely confused, do killers in your games actually just stand on top of a slug and don't do anything? This style of gameplay is pretty much a game throw, no? I honestly haven't seen anyone play like that pretty much ever.
Regarding the hard tunneling, well, it's a hard issue to find solution for, as I said before, preferably I would want spreading hooks to be rewarded, so it is an actual choice between tunneling, which benefits you greatly, and not tunneling, which doesn't benefit you at all. Whenever I play killer I prefer to go with spreading hooks, and let me tell you, the game more often than not punishes me for doing so with quick gens, to be fair, I do run little slowdowns and I am no professional, but still.
There is actually a long history of all the killer strategies getting nerfed to such oblivion that they either barely work or don't really work at all. Slugging, camping, hit and run, 3 gen (Thank got this one was removed though), all those strategies were nerfed quite severely to the point that they became far less effective, but guess which strategy was barely touched? That's right, it's the tunneling. Not saying they should nerf tunneling in it's entirety though, only the hard one. Preferably also make other strategies, except for 3 gen, more viable again.
And personally, what I would do for anti tunnel system? Hmmmm, well, I did have an idea of first 3 unhooks getting different kind of protection, one where you get only 5 seconds of endurance (10 if basement) which cannot be modified with perks in any way, but something like 20-30 seconds of 15% Haste. Short duration of endurance so that you do not go straight with bodyblocking, and prioritize getting the heck away, and lengthy haste so that chasing you is still an option, but with a heavy price. The rest of the unhooks get current 15 seconds of each. And honestly should be shortened in egc it is so dumb how I just shift w into exit games in egc and killer can only watch me2 -
I mean honestly these really are just diet versions of the changes in the PTB
Iv read your post and something confuses me, If a killer wanted to tunnel someone out the game for the sole purpose to ruin someone's game, what would making them stand there and watch the hook change?
Why take away information when they leave the hook, when if they stay nothing changes? Unless your trying to say patrolling gens then going right back to the hook is OP
And if that's the case you want to nerf tunneling so survivors can play better against it to win more because you think its OP. It would mean that this has nothing to do with a killer trying to be toxic purposely. You just wanna win. Tunneling isn't OP and theirs counterplay.
Regarding your slugging suggestion, this is another change that seems masked to be for something done to be toxic when it kinda seems like you just want it for more hatch escapes or flash saves, because ummm correct me if I'm wrong but is camping a downed person in the middle of the game not throwing??
People typically only proxy camp a slug when their going against a team of flashies or the survivor is on a pallet, and also to find the last survivor. All of these situations are valid slugs. What are you trying to prevent here exactly?
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My apologies in advance for another long-winded reply, but I am enjoying this conversation lol.
Thank you for the edit, I now understand what you were meaning better! I genuinely tried before the edit and just wasn't 100% sure where you were going with it and was unfortunately a little bit off. As for the idea that there is no rush with a slug, I don't know that that is necessarily true. Yes, the timer is longer, but when it's over you're done. It's not like gaining another hook state where you still have another shot at life. There is also currently no way to regenerate the bleed out bar, it stays at the same amount it was at when you were last picked up the next time you go down. (Maybe a med kit addon for this or something could be an interesting thing for the devs to add?) I guess I could see the argument to make the anticamp timer (if that is what they decided to do) a little longer for a slugged survivor than a hooked one for these reason, though.
I do agree that the anticamp system could be better, but it also does work as intended sometimes (not as much as I would like, but still better than nothing). I guess the way I see it, when I'm playing survivor I'd rather have an option to get up in that situation, even if it did mean I'm instantly in another chase. That's at least fun. I don't really care about whether or not I escape, tbh. I play this game for a good time, not to run out of the exit gate. Don't take this as "I just throw I don't even try" because I try as hard as I can to either escape myself or make a sacrifice so my team can escape, I just don't need it to happen to enjoy the game (I hope this makes sense).
With how I play killer, adding a slug anticamp timer likely would have no affect on me at all, unless I'm making a dumb mistake (which would be on me lol) like being too paranoid looking for other survs or losing them in the grass because I have limited hearing abilities so the directionality is hard for me to catch sometimes. I'm having a hard time seeing how adding one would be unhealthy, I guess. I understand your argument for why you don't like it and why it's not perfect and I agree, but I just feel like it is better than nothing.
As for your example which cases to cover with anti-slug timer, I am genuinely confused, do killers in your games actually just stand on top of a slug and don't do anything? This style of gameplay is pretty much a game throw, no? I honestly haven't seen anyone play like that pretty much ever.
Yes, this happens maybe every third match for me. It's…. exhuasting tbh. I'm not the best player ever, nor do I think I'm the worst. I'd like to think I'm somewhere in the "average" category, maybe slightly above average. So I suppose it could just have something to do with my specific MMR and the fact that I typically play in the evening (which tends to be more toxic than daytime/morning games) but it happens a ton in my lobbies. I think I would be less adamant for a fix of some kind, even if it isn't perfect or the most useful in every instance, if I wasn't laying on the floor bleeding out in 15-20% of my matches. It's also just kinda frustrating bleeding out at zero hooks on every single person. It's just shorting survivors' ability to participate in the game.
As for the style of gameplay being a throw…. usually I would say yes, but for certain killers it really is difficult to counter, especially without a full SWF (which I almost never have). Example: the other night I was playing with a friend (so just a duo, 2 randoms) and we got in a match with a slugging clown and it was borderline psychological torture. he never hooked anyone, even when it was safe to do so. He would just slug, then throw purple bottles, walk away and kick a gen, come back and throw purple bottles, walk away and down another survivor, throw purple bottles on both, etc. I'm not even sure what we could have done to counter this style of gameplay, even with a full team. Nobody had hardened (it was chaos shuffle but also do people ever run that perk?) so they couldn't go through the mist to pick up survivors without clown instantly returning (he was returning as soon as he saw they were up on the HUD anyway but those few extra seconds are crucial to making sure at least one survivor stays up). They also couldn't work on gens because then they were just getting slugged whenever they tried. The match lasted almost 45 minutes. Everyone died to bleed out, not a single hook or mori. We tried to spread out, but we were on a small map (red forest temple). It was obvious this person got enjoyment out of making us suffer, because he managed to get all four slugged maybe 5 minutes into the game, but let my duo wiggle and pick someone up before starting the same exact pattern back up. He could have hooked all of us and moved on with his day but decided not to. That wasn't a mercy drop, it was because that clown wanted to make us bleed out and be miserable the entire match. I just find this playstyle problematic, for obvious reasons. Like yeah, I can just go next and emotionally I'm fine after the match, but I wasted a third of my available gaming time for the evening in this one match. I suppose I could have abandoned, but that kind of seems like a bandaid for a bigger problem, which is that this is even possible in the first place.
Regarding the hard tunneling, well, it's a hard issue to find solution for, as I said before, preferably I would want spreading hooks to be rewarded, so it is an actual choice between tunneling, which benefits you greatly, and not tunneling, which doesn't benefit you at all. Whenever I play killer I prefer to go with spreading hooks, and let me tell you, the game more often than not punishes me for doing so with quick gens, to be fair, I do run little slowdowns and I am no professional, but still.
I play with a similar game style when I play killer and I have to agree I wish there was a bigger reward for playing in a way that doesn't BM other players and spreading out pressure on different survivors. It would also be great to see better rewards for looping. Like, if I'm playing survivor and I manage to loop the killer for 4 gens, why am I always the lowest on the scoreboard? I arguably did the most difficult task for the longest amount of time, yet get punished because I didn't touch a generator during that time, even though there is no way I could have with the killer chasing me. Idk maybe these kinds of incentives would lower the amount of slugging/tunneling in games just because we want more BPs. I also wish if you get hard tunneled but waste enough of the killer's time to get a 3 out, that should still count as a victory towards your MMR. Like, ultimately it was your effort that got the team a win.
There is actually a long history of all the killer strategies getting nerfed to such oblivion that they either barely work or don't really work at all. Slugging, camping, hit and run, 3 gen (Thank got this one was removed though), all those strategies were nerfed quite severely to the point that they became far less effective, but guess which strategy was barely touched? That's right, it's the tunneling. Not saying they should nerf tunneling in it's entirety though, only the hard one. Preferably also make other strategies, except for 3 gen, more viable again.
You could say this about both sides to be completely honest. Survivors have seen so many nerfs over the years: Spine Chill, Distortion, Conviction (although this one is still good, not being able to get the charge on a self heal anymore is rough in certain matches), med kit addons, flashlights, perma-loops (3 vault limit in chase), early hatch escapes, keys and maps, pallet spawns (this could be argued for either side honestly, this seems to be constantly changing. understandable, they are working to find balance I think), self care, etc… It's all in the name of balance, which I think makes sense. They also recently started punishing survivors for countering the tunnel/slug by leaving people there to die and just getting the gens done and leaving. People get bans for this, so it forces them to put themselves in a bad position (they have to attempt to do something for the other survivor or else they will get a ban), thus rewarding the killer for proxying or whatever the situation may be that made it undesirable to intervene in the first place.
What I think a lot of the player base doesn't understand (not saying you because it seems like you actually have a pretty balanced take on this stuff) is these changes are constantly happening on both sides of the coin and it is a good thing (for the most part). Nerfs don't happen because a playstyle is bad, they happen because a playstyle is too strong for the other side to reasonably counter with average level players (we can't lump the super high MMR players who have been playing since launch and only play in SWFs into this and I fear a lot of people who only play killer act like this is what the entire survivor base is like when in reality it's only the top maybe 10% of players).
And personally, what I would do for anti tunnel system? Hmmmm, well, I did have an idea of first 3 unhooks getting different kind of protection, one where you get only 5 seconds of endurance (10 if basement) which cannot be modified with perks in any way, but something like 20-30 seconds of 15% Haste. Short duration of endurance so that you do not go straight with bodyblocking, and prioritize getting the heck away, and lengthy haste so that chasing you is still an option, but with a heavy price. The rest of the unhooks get current 15 seconds of each. And honestly should be shortened in egc it is so dumb how I just shift w into exit games in egc and killer can only watch me
This is a good alternate suggestion to be honest! Although I do think the 10 seconds of endurance should probably stay unless we make the first 10 seconds even faster (say 50% haste) so they actually have an opportunity to get distance from the killer (reminder we have so many dash killers nowadays). Obviously I don't know the perfect numbers without any PTB with this type of thing in my time playing on PC (i played on console for years before i swapped over a few months ago), so those numbers could be fine tuned based on a PTB.
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we had the hud lying in the first anti slug tunnel ptb
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I think you've got the wrong idea of where I'm coming from here.
If a killer wanted to tunnel someone out the game for the sole purpose to ruin someone's game, what would making them stand there and watch the hook change?
It's less about forcing them to hook, and more about giving the death state survivor an option. If there is an anti-camp timer on both slugs and hooks, this gives the survivor another opportunity to get back on their feet play the game if they are being face camped. Yes, the killer is going to continue to tunnel them, I never claimed they wouldn't. But at least they can run around and do a loop and actually play the game, rather than just sit there waiting. Most survivors know they are going to die no matter what when a killer makes that decision, so this would just make the time leading up to said death a bit more enjoyable/fun. I'm not trying to break the balance game, just make it a bit more enjoyable for the people who currently are sentenced to the most boring 4 minutes of their life when they get slugged and face camped.
Why take away information when they leave the hook, when if they stay nothing changes? Unless your trying to say patrolling gens then going right back to the hook is OP
This would help for situations where the killer is proxy camping to avoid a self-unhook, but having to walk in circles around the radius of the anticamp detection so they can see all sides of the hooked survivor. It gives another survivor the opportunity to get a sneaky unhook in if someone else distracts the killer for a moment. It opens the door for a lot of strategic gameplay for survivors. You are correct that this will not help with face camping, though.
Let me ask you this: What is really the difference between the HUD changing 3 seconds after someone is unhooked, other than the fact that those two survivors are maybe 10m further away from the hook? This is a genuine question, because when I play killer I never return to the unhook unless they are the last two survivors so I don't use this information in the same way other people might. I want to know why this is concerning for a lot of you because I don't see how those few seconds of delay would affect much at all (based on my own experience and how I use the HUD).
you want to nerf tunneling so survivors can play better against it to win more because you think its OP. It would mean that this has nothing to do with a killer trying to be toxic purposely. You just wanna win.
Believe it or not, the reason I want tunneling nerfed (even if only slightly) is so when people are playing with their friends they don't have to sit around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the match to end because the other three survivors have 0 hooks and only one generator is done because people were trying to make a play to save them. Oftentimes killers will continue to target the same survivor, even when other survivors are in a more vulnerable map position or doing everything in their power to steal the chase.
Additionally, you get almost no bloodpoints when you are a survivor and you are in chase the whole game. Most of your bloodpoints come from objectives (doing gens and cleaning totems) and being altruistic (unhooking your teammates and healing them), neither of which you can do if you are being hard tunneled. So not only did you just get killed and have to sit around waiting for your friends to either escape or also die, but you also are on the bottom of the scoreboard. At the very least, if there were more points rewarded for chases, I think that would make people feel a little less butthurt about it.
I also don't really care about getting out of the gate when I play survivor, I play DBD to have fun and laugh over the silly moments that can happen sometimes (like getting jumpscared - sometimes even by another survivor lmao). Slugging specifically takes out a lot of the fun for me and many others because there's nothing you can do. At least if I'm being tunneled I can run around and still have fun while I'm alive.
Regarding your slugging suggestion, this is another change that seems masked to be for something done to be toxic when it kinda seems like you just want it for more hatch escapes or flash saves, because ummm correct me if I'm wrong but is camping a downed person in the middle of the game not throwing??
When survivors started getting banned for just doing gens and leaving instead of helping that slugged survivor (sometime in the summer last year), it made this less of a throw and encouraged some killers to use it more often. In a lot of situations, it might still be throwing, but in some it isn't. Slugging is especially problematic on small maps where people can't really spread out because it is too easy to slug 2 people who are near each other and cause a whole snowball. Like sure, this is a great strategy to get a win, but it's not really a healthy style of gameplay, as it causes other players to just have to sit around and wait for the game to end. That doesn't even really feel like playing a game at that point, it's just boring. I don't understand how that's fun for the killer either, they're just standing around too.
So no, this isn't about getting a beamer save (I don't ever run a flashlight) or hatch escape. It's about wanting to have fun when I'm logging on to a video game lol.
People typically only proxy camp a slug when their going against a team of flashies or the survivor is on a pallet, and also to find the last survivor. All of these situations are valid slugs. What are you trying to prevent here exactly?
This simply isn't true, I fear. Ever since the first failed PTB, I have seen more frequent slugging than I have ever experienced in my time playing this game. The second failed PTB only made this situation worse. It genuinely feels like by claiming they were doing things to prevent slugging and tunneling for the whole year then not doing it, BHVR indirectly encouraged a lot of killers to adopt this toxic playstyle.
In the situations mentioned with flashies or a pallet save, the anti-camp timer wouldn't go up anyways because another survivor would be nearby. So it's not like adding it would really change anything in that situation.
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While this is true, that PTB had a much larger set of more complicated rules than simply just having a small delay on the HUD and removing the unhook notification. From the official 9.2.0 PTB patch notes:
Unhook Protections Update
- Survivors that are unhooked or unhook themselves receive Unhook Protections for 30 seconds, which include:10% Haste status effectEndurance status effectElusive status effect (new status effect that hides grunts of pain, aura, scratch marks, and pools of blood)No collision with other playersReveal the Killer's aura within 32 metersImmunity to Killer InstinctImmunity to AFK crows
These effects linger for 3 seconds after being healed for a full health state.
These effects are lost when performing a Conspicuous Action.
These effects are disabled when all generators are completed, except for the Haste and Endurance status effects.
The Survivor is still susceptible to attacks and powers.
Hook Status Update
- When a Survivor is hooked, the hook's status is obscured for the Killer:The Killer cannot see the hook's status in the HUDThe Killer can no longer see the hook's aura
- When a Survivor is unhooked:There is no loud noise notificationThe hook's status in the HUD is revealed 10 seconds later
These effects are disabled when all generators are completed.
IIRC, the main issues with this PTB were actually the unhook protections, although the hook status was also a bit overboard (especially against lower tier killers). I'm thinking something more like 3-8 seconds rather than 10 would be more appropriate, as well as the killer still being able to see the hook aura (and it disappearing at the same time the HUD changes rather than at the same time as the unhook).
So I guess you could call this one suggestion a diet version of one tiny aspect of the 9.2.0 PTB if you really wanted to, it wouldn't be entirely false. But for the rest of it my argument still stands, see here:
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the first statement you highlighted and responded to was not a response at all you responded to it as if it was about slugs when i asked why add a HUD delay on unhooking when the killer can just watch the hook? If he wanted to tunnel to be toxic.
and if a killer is watching the hook I'm pretty sure a hud change of 3 seconds doesn't help with a sneaky unhook at all.
So the only benefit would be from them actually leaving the hook. This changes nothing about tunneling being used in a toxic way. Just being used in a effective way.
What is really the difference between the HUD changing 3 seconds after someone is unhooked, other than the fact that those two survivors are maybe 10m further away from the hook?I dont understand the question. There will be 0 difference with this change if the killer watches the hook. Why nerf something that does nothing to actual HARD tunneling?
Also trying to stop a basic fundamental strategy in a killer / survivor game just doesn't make any sense there are plenty ways to deal with something as ancient as tunneling in this game, plenty of perks and builds you can play with to try and avoid it all together, and if your playing with friends? Even better, SWFs have insane potential and coms are everything.
Secondly no killer is downing a survivor and camping him unless hes on a pallet, flash saves, trying to find the last survivor or there all close. These are all valid. If a killer downs someone and camps then he will lose lol. If theirs 3 people left and 2 of you get caught together AND downed simultaneously that is 100% fair play. Thats not toxic.
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I assume the slugging camp meter will also be disabled if a player is nearby like the hooks? Because that's the only way that could work
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Oh I don't think such anti-slug system would be unhealthy for the game, however it must be looked at from the point of view of "How can bully squads abuse this?". They are notorious after all for not caring about escaping as much, opting for ruining killer's experience as much as they can instead. If I were to add, I would probably make the radius for the other survivor canceling timer build up larger, instead of making the build up itself longer. In the slug cases, it is more likely that the killer will be closer to the slug rather than survivor, especially with Background Player or Sprint Burst making it way safer to do.
I am gonna be honest, I am indeed very surprised that there are killers who play like that. It sounds like they don't just stand still on top of the slug, but rather perform the hardcore slugging strategy, and last time I saw a hardcore slugger was back in 2024 I believe. I mean, there is no longer even the old Deerstalker perk to do so, so it's even less effective now. Though I believe it is indeed a very bad choice of a strategy, I can see it playing out well considering that it's similar to facing a specific killer once a year: you never play vs them ever so you either forget or never learn how to counter them, though I would suggest trying out WGLF or Tenacity considering how often you face such playstyle
For survivor's reward via looping, yeah, they honestly should've added a +1000 obj score "Well Run" for a generator repair whenever you are in chase a long time ago. With current bp economy in shambles, extra 1000 for something like that wouldn't matter much. Ofc you could lose those +1000 if chase broke or get them for free if chase just started and a gen pops, but hey, it's better than nothing
As for both sides getting nerfs, for sure, yes, but I mostly meant that in killer context because killers don't have a lot of common general strategies, majority of them revolve around hooks or kills, after all, that's the goal of killers, to kill as many as they can. Sure some specific builds exist on specific killers, but they aren't good on all of them, after all some killers excel where others struggle. And whenever one general strategy was getting nerfed, that naturally meant that others would become better and would appear more often, even if they stayed the same. As of right now, I would say that there are only 8 general killer strategies: 3 gen defence, slugging, camping, tunneling, spreading hooks, hit and run, totemic, and a mix of all prior except totemic (totemic is a bit of a stretch but eh, many killers can utilise a build with them). Majority of them got worse, some for valid reasons, some I believe for bad reasons. In the end, after the many nerfs, the most effective one became tunneling, the least nerfed imo, so that's a given
P.S. Sorry I don't refer to your words like you do for better clarity, unfamiliar with how to use Element Toolbar yet0 -
If a killer is staying out of anti-camp range to prevent a self-unhook, then the 3 seconds would help in a lot of cases, actually. It's quite easy to distract many different killers for a moment or two while another teammate swoops in for a quick rescue. Maybe you throw a pebble at a locker that is near the hook, but not in the current direction the killer is looking in. Maybe you start a gen right behind them so they want to turn around and kick it or try to grab you off of it. I'm not saying that adding a HUD delay would 100% fix every tunneling problem ever, but it would help in a variety of situations.
Why nerf something that does nothing to actual HARD tunneling?
Killers hard tunnel without directly face camping all the time by returning to the hook and going after the injured survivor as soon as they know they are off. This would help dramatically in situations like that, especially if using perks that hide scratch marks or quiet your cries. I also didn't get an answer for what is so negative for a killer that isn't tunneling off hook to have a 3s HUD delay?
I can think of a ton of things that would help with hard tunneling with camping you are thinking of, but you (and many others, myself included tbh) would hate them because they would be exploitable/broken if used improperly (which we all know will happen). I mean, look at what happened in the PTB when we tried to do something that would actually help this lol. If you have a stronger, yet non-exploitable suggestion for a fix, I would love to hear it because I can't think of one myself.
Also trying to stop a basic fundamental strategy in a killer / survivor game just doesn't make any sense there are plenty ways to deal with something as ancient as tunneling in this game
I recommend reading my replies to another user here. They're a bit lengthy, but explain the logic pretty clearly.
Specifically, this if you don't want to read it all:
I just want to make it clear that I'm not trying to argue whether or not anti slug/tunnel should exist here. BHVR already thinks it should or else they wouldn't have tested these changes out twice in PTBs and would not have spent an entire year saying they were working on it. With this in mind, what I have suggested in the original post is the healthiest way I can imagine any changes being made. If you have something better to suggest I would love to hear it, but "they shouldn't change anything to fix this" isn't a good enough answer for me here, considering they spent all of last year trying to address it.
and:
What I think a lot of the player base doesn't understand is these changes are constantly happening on both sides of the coin and it is a good thing (for the most part). Nerfs don't happen because a playstyle is bad, they happen because a playstyle is too strong for the other side to reasonably counter with average level players (we can't lump the super high MMR players who have been playing since launch and only play in SWFs into this and I fear a lot of people who only play killer act like this is what the entire survivor base is like when in reality it's only the top maybe 10% of players).
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Yes, that is exactly how it would work. And would also be disabled after gens are finished, like the hook timer. I swear I'm not trying to pitch a broken idea, just something that would help people have more fun before they die in these increasingly common toxic games.
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Oh I don't think such anti-slug system would be unhealthy for the game, however it must be looked at from the point of view of "How can bully squads abuse this?". They are notorious after all for not caring about escaping as much, opting for ruining killer's experience as much as they can instead.
I was trying to keep this in mind when coming up with these suggestions, tbh. I think with the timer being paused if another survivor is in the area, there really aren't a lot of ways to abuse this. I've also been thinking it would make sense for the anti-camp radius to even be a little bit smaller on a slugged survivor, since they can crawl away/get out of sight and they can be rescued more safely. I also think it would be important for killers to get some sort of visual indicator (similar to say the hex symbol that appears on the righthand side for survivors) that they are inside of the anti-camp radius (regardless of whether the meter is going up or not) for slugged survivors due to the added mobility of the survivor that doesn't exist when they are on hook.
I suppose I could see these types of survivors "abuse" this mechanic by using tenacity and try to crawl back into the anti-camp radius when they are left somewhere, which is why I suggested the visual indicator above. I think an argument could be made for background player as well, since they could be outside of that radius and still be close enough to get a save. I like your suggestion of increasing the radius that pauses the anti-camp timer for survivors (so the radius is smaller for killers to start increasing the timer and larger for survivors to start pausing the timer) to try and account for this. (Or at least I think that's what you meant by the end of that first paragraph.) Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything else painfully obvious that could conflict with this interaction though.
I am gonna be honest, I am indeed very surprised that there are killers who play like that. It sounds like they don't just stand still on top of the slug, but rather perform the hardcore slugging strategy, and last time I saw a hardcore slugger was back in 2024 I believe. I mean, there is no longer even the old Deerstalker perk to do so, so it's even less effective now. Though I believe it is indeed a very bad choice of a strategy, I can see it playing out well considering that it's similar to facing a specific killer once a year: you never play vs them ever so you either forget or never learn how to counter them, though I would suggest trying out WGLF or Tenacity considering how often you face such playstyle
I was shocked to see it return, too. When the first round of anti slug/tunnel changes failed in the PTB, it came back pretty aggressively, then got worse when the second round failed too. I was hoping by now the playstyle would get boring/not meta again but that hasn't been the case. I do run WGLF a lot, but it only does so much once the killer realizes you are the only survivor with WGLF, so they target you instead of whoever else. As I mentioned before, this is a lot easier to face as a SWF and I just don't have the opportunity to play with 3 other people all the time, so I have accepted that in a lot of these situations there really isn't a lot I can control and I just have to lay there and wait for the game to end and move on. Maybe I'll try adding tenacity too, it just sucks that that means I'll have half of my perk slots filled with stuff just to prevent something that shouldn't be as big of a problem as it is in the first place.
On a semi-related side note: this is funny because when I see killers complain about something like this in the forum (like having to use LB and starstruck because of bully squads but wanting to use more gen regression perks), it feels like everyone sympathizes. But if a survivor does, a lot of people will tell them that's the point of the game. I don't know, I wish more people in the community were willing to hear each other and empathize with the player experience of the other side.
For survivor's reward via looping, yeah, they honestly should've added a +1000 obj score "Well Run" for a generator repair whenever you are in chase a long time ago. With current bp economy in shambles, extra 1000 for something like that wouldn't matter much. Ofc you could lose those +1000 if chase broke or get them for free if chase just started and a gen pops, but hey, it's better than nothing
I feel like this could also be addressed by giving points based on how many minutes (or seconds for some) a survivor is in chase for the duration of the trial vs. how long the trial lasted. Or maybe some combination of the two lol. All I know is that it's super disappointing right now.
As for both sides getting nerfs, for sure, yes, but I mostly meant that in killer context because killers don't have a lot of common general strategies, majority of them revolve around hooks or kills, after all, that's the goal of killers, to kill as many as they can. Sure some specific builds exist on specific killers, but they aren't good on all of them, after all some killers excel where others struggle. And whenever one general strategy was getting nerfed, that naturally meant that others would become better and would appear more often, even if they stayed the same. As of right now, I would say that there are only 8 general killer strategies: 3 gen defence, slugging, camping, tunneling, spreading hooks, hit and run, totemic, and a mix of all prior except totemic (totemic is a bit of a stretch but eh, many killers can utilise a build with them). Majority of them got worse, some for valid reasons, some I believe for bad reasons. In the end, after the many nerfs, the most effective one became tunneling, the least nerfed imo, so that's a given
Yeah, I kind of agree with this sentiment. I just think the power balance is too far off between the different strategies right now and it's making slugging and tunneling too good to not (if that makes sense). Hell, sometimes I wish they would just implement a competitive/casual mode so I can run a funny build and not get instantly destroyed every once in a while. Sometimes its fun to run the bad perks and do things that aren't necessarily the smartest in terms of getting out of the trial, just to switch things up a bit.
In all honesty, I wouldn't even be mad if they only made these anti slug/tunnel changes effective for the first half of the game. Like once the second or third generator pops, they could be disabled. Allow killers to use this more aggressive approach without penalty as the survivors are putting on more pressure, I don't really care. It's just disheartening to see one or the other (or sometimes even both) happening at 5 gens in nearly every match. 4k at 5 gens doesn't reward anyone. I have never seen a game end at 5 gens and any player (killer included) have more than 20,000 points on the scoreboard at the end. I assume you play this game enough to realize how low this is/how few blood points you would get from these matches.
P.S. Sorry I don't refer to your words like you do for better clarity, unfamiliar with how to use Element Toolbar yet
No worries! I just do it to keep better track of my thoughts because I have ADHD lol. If you're on PC, there should be a little paragraph circle to the left of the line of text you are on. If you click that, then click on the quotation mark, there is an option for a quote. It will add that little indent and you can paste whatever you are referencing on top of it. I'm not sure if it works the same on mobile, I haven't checked. There are some other tools under that paragraph button, but that is really the only one I use lol.
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Oh I don't think such anti-slug system would be unhealthy for the game, however it must be looked at from the point of view of "How can bully squads abuse this?". They are notorious after all for not caring about escaping as much, opting for ruining killer's experience as much as they can instead.
I was trying to keep this in mind when coming up with these suggestions, tbh. I think with the timer being paused if another survivor is in the area, there really aren't a lot of ways to abuse this. I've also been thinking it would make sense for the anti-camp radius to even be a little bit smaller on a slugged survivor, since they can crawl away/get out of sight and they can be rescued more safely. I also think it would be important for killers to get some sort of visual indicator (similar to say the hex symbol that appears on the righthand side for survivors) that they are inside of the anti-camp radius (regardless of whether the meter is going up or not) for slugged survivors due to the added mobility of the survivor that doesn't exist when they are on hook.
I suppose I could see these types of survivors "abuse" this mechanic by using tenacity and try to crawl back into the anti-camp radius when they are left somewhere, which is why I suggested the visual indicator above. I think an argument could be made for background player as well, since they could be outside of that radius and still be close enough to get a save. I like your suggestion of increasing the radius that pauses the anti-camp timer for survivors (so the radius is smaller for killers to start increasing the timer and larger for survivors to start pausing the timer) to try and account for this. (Or at least I think that's what you meant by the end of that first paragraph.) Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything else painfully obvious that could conflict with this interaction though.
I am gonna be honest, I am indeed very surprised that there are killers who play like that. It sounds like they don't just stand still on top of the slug, but rather perform the hardcore slugging strategy, and last time I saw a hardcore slugger was back in 2024 I believe. I mean, there is no longer even the old Deerstalker perk to do so, so it's even less effective now. Though I believe it is indeed a very bad choice of a strategy, I can see it playing out well considering that it's similar to facing a specific killer once a year: you never play vs them ever so you either forget or never learn how to counter them, though I would suggest trying out WGLF or Tenacity considering how often you face such playstyle
I was shocked to see it return, too. When the first round of anti slug/tunnel changes failed in the PTB, it came back pretty aggressively, then got worse when the second round failed too. I was hoping by now the playstyle would get boring/not meta again but that hasn't been the case. I do run WGLF a lot, but it only does so much once the killer realizes you are the only survivor with WGLF, so they target you instead of whoever else. As I mentioned before, this is a lot easier to face as a SWF and I just don't have the opportunity to play with 3 other people all the time, so I have accepted that in a lot of these situations there really isn't a lot I can control and I just have to lay there and wait for the game to end and move on. Maybe I'll try adding tenacity too, it just sucks that that means I'll have half of my perk slots filled with stuff just to prevent something that shouldn't be as big of a problem as it is in the first place.
On a semi-related side note: this is funny because when I see killers complain about something like this in the forum (like having to use LB and starstruck because of bully squads but wanting to use more gen regression perks), it feels like everyone sympathizes. But if a survivor does, a lot of people will tell them that's the point of the game. I don't know, I wish more people in the community were willing to hear each other and empathize with the player experience of the other side.
For survivor's reward via looping, yeah, they honestly should've added a +1000 obj score "Well Run" for a generator repair whenever you are in chase a long time ago. With current bp economy in shambles, extra 1000 for something like that wouldn't matter much. Ofc you could lose those +1000 if chase broke or get them for free if chase just started and a gen pops, but hey, it's better than nothing
I feel like this could also be addressed by giving points based on how many minutes (or seconds for some) a survivor is in chase for the duration of the trial vs. how long the trial lasted. Or maybe some combination of the two lol. All I know is that it's super disappointing right now.
As for both sides getting nerfs, for sure, yes, but I mostly meant that in killer context because killers don't have a lot of common general strategies, majority of them revolve around hooks or kills, after all, that's the goal of killers, to kill as many as they can. Sure some specific builds exist on specific killers, but they aren't good on all of them, after all some killers excel where others struggle. And whenever one general strategy was getting nerfed, that naturally meant that others would become better and would appear more often, even if they stayed the same. As of right now, I would say that there are only 8 general killer strategies: 3 gen defence, slugging, camping, tunneling, spreading hooks, hit and run, totemic, and a mix of all prior except totemic (totemic is a bit of a stretch but eh, many killers can utilise a build with them). Majority of them got worse, some for valid reasons, some I believe for bad reasons. In the end, after the many nerfs, the most effective one became tunneling, the least nerfed imo, so that's a given
Yeah, I kind of agree with this sentiment. I just think the power balance is too far off between the different strategies right now and it's making slugging and tunneling too good to not (if that makes sense). Hell, sometimes I wish they would just implement a competitive/casual mode so I can run a funny build and not get instantly destroyed every once in a while. Sometimes its fun to run the bad perks and do things that aren't necessarily the smartest in terms of getting out of the trial, just to switch things up a bit.
In all honesty, I wouldn't even be mad if they only made these anti slug/tunnel changes effective for the first half of the game. Like once the second or third generator pops, they could be disabled. Allow killers to use this more aggressive approach without penalty as the survivors are putting on more pressure, I don't really care. It's just disheartening to see one or the other (or sometimes even both) happening at 5 gens in nearly every match. 4k at 5 gens doesn't reward anyone. I have never seen a game end at 5 gens and any player (killer included) have more than 20,000 points on the scoreboard at the end. I assume you play this game enough to realize how low this is/how few blood points you would get from these matches.
P.S. Sorry I don't refer to your words like you do for better clarity, unfamiliar with how to use Element Toolbar yet
No worries! I just do it to keep better track of my thoughts because I have ADHD lol. If you're on PC, there should be a little paragraph circle to the left of the line of text you are on. If you click that, then click on the quotation mark, there is an option for a quote. It will add that little indent and you can paste whatever you are referencing on top of it. I'm not sure if it works the same on mobile, I haven't checked. There are some other tools under that paragraph button, but that is really the only one I use lol.
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well no your hud shouldn't be lying to you at all. all the changes in that ptb patch was bad and having the hud actively lie in order to maje up for teamnates being bad/the unhooker not bringing perks to prevent it is unhealthy
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As it is, there is no perk to obscure the HUD from the killer, nor is there a perk to prevent the loud noise notification on unhook.
What, specifically, is your concern with having, say, a 3 second delay on the HUD? You are still getting the information and know it has a 3 second delay. This just would give rescued survivors a small window to leave or try to do a quick heal or really anything at all rather than instantly being tunneled
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Unless your going against a baby killer those 3 seconds would change literally nothing, if a killer is looking at a hook and they want to tunnel, there gonna tunnel. There only gonna be distracted by the person actually getting the person off the hook if they wanted to HARD tunnel. A information nerf when a killer is literally monitoring the hook (hard tunneling) changes nothing.
And hard tunneling is the most anoyying version of tunneling to go against,
I also didn't get an answer for what is so negative for a killer that isn't tunneling off hook to have a 3s HUD delay?
This wasnt your question
What is really the difference between the HUD changing 3 seconds after someone is unhooked, other than the fact that those two survivors are maybe 10m further away from the hook?This was your question. which you later contradicted with..
Killers hard tunnel without directly face camping all the time by returning to the hook and going after the injured survivor as soon as they know they are off. This would help dramatically in situations like that, especially if using perks that hide scratch marks or quiet your cries.
you implied it wasn't that much of a difference, then said it was. You just want to nerf killers getting info on a survivor being unhooked that ONLY works when there doing other things, other then monitoring the hook. Killers shouldn't get a info nerf for doing other things on the map when someone is hooked. That's not hard tunneling.
A Killer having to run off and do other things instead of monitoring a hook should be the goal when it comes to tunneling. A killer shouldn't get nerfed for doing that.
If anything it would've made more sense for you to propose a change that actually affects killers who sit and monitor the hook on first hook, because this change does nothing about that. Which is the most annoying to face.
The whole ancient "Tunneling is OP" thing has been said for 1000 years. The reason its still here after time and time again because it just isnt. There's tons of counters to it, and if its that "unfun" play a different game honestly.
Getting tunneled to me makes me better in chases and gives me a chance to embarrass a killer and loop him for 3 gens. Its not always about winning. Its ok to die as survivor nobody is mad at you for it. Switch up the builds and try new things based off what you want to experience.
Pay attention to how you lose, and think of ways to prevent it next time. that's the problem, players dont feel like learning new things so they complain and look for nerfs out of pure laziness. a "average level player" doesn't have to be "average" forever. Your mindset will determine if you will be or not.
I use to be a terrible survivor but the more i played and paid attention to things I struggled with, I got better, same with killer. If you just scream "OP" your just giving your brain cope to not improve and learn.
Something that is OP is something that is very strong with little to no counterplay, that's not tunneling.
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This wasnt your question
It actually was my question, and still remains unanswered.
This was your question. which you later contradicted with..
The thing you are quoting here isn't a contradiction. I was stating why it would be helpful to reduce tunneling. I would still like to hear why it would be problematic for killers. It would greatly help me understand your POV if you could actually use your words here.
If anything it would've made more sense for you to propose a change that actually affects killers who sit and monitor the hook on first hook, because this change does nothing about that. Which is the most annoying to face
I have been working on this, but can't seem to find a suggestion that isn't exploitable by high-level survivors. Open to whatever you have to suggest.
The whole ancient "Tunneling is OP" thing has been said for 1000 years
I never said this. I explain my concerns with tunneling in a previous reply to you, please go read it again (or for the first time if you skipped over it).
The rest of your comment is unwarranted advice, considering I already stated my stance on not caring about escaping lmao. The tone is also coming off as very condescending, and you put words I didn't say or even imply in my mouth multiple times. With this in mind, I'm going to respectfully decline to respond to it.
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Well if i ever said you implied something that you didnt, you can easily just tell me what that was instead of just accusing me of it for more transparency. This response seems a bit passive aggressive in nature so il respond in a way to deescalate if any is there.
The thing you are quoting here isn't a contradiction. I was stating why it would be helpful to reduce tunneling. I would still like to hear why it would be problematic for killers. It would greatly help me understand your POV if you could actually use your words here.
It was a contradiction because you clearly said
I don't see how those few seconds of delay would affect much at all (based on my own experience and how I use the HUD).
Here comes the clear contradiction
Killers hard tunnel without directly face camping all the time by returning to the hook and going after the injured survivor as soon as they know they are off. This would help dramatically in situations like that, especially if using perks that hide scratch marks or quiet your cries.
You claimed to not see how those few seconds would affect anything at all based on your own experience, but then say in a later post that it would greatly impact tunneling while away from the hook. That is contradiction.
You also said this…
What I think a lot of the player base doesn't understand is these changes are constantly happening on both sides of the coin and it
is a good thing(for the most part). Nerfs don't happen because a playstyle is bad, they happen because a playstyle is too strong for the other side to reasonably counter with average level players (we can't lump the super high MMR players who have been playing since launch and only play in SWFs into this and I fear a lot of people who only play killer act like this is what the entire survivor base is like when in reality it's only the topmaybe10% of players)To me, this seems like your implying tunneling is to strong/OP to be countered reasonably unless playing against top teir SWFs, and that's just simply not true.
And what makes the changes problematic is that it nerfs a killer for no reason, and its not a direct nerf that targets something that can be done in a toxic way. besides the slugging change you suggested, but the reality is. If a killer said to himself "im gonna troll and just slug". If he downs a survivor on first hook and leaves him there and camps, he will lose. If he goes around slugging with no hooks, he will slowly lose. None of the changes directly help with toxic situations, only strategic ones.
These changes would only nerf a killer using those methods in a actual fair, strategic way.
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because we have perks like come and get me teamwork toughen up off the record decisive strike bt babtsitter iron will we even have change of plan in case they decide to bbring a toolbox but ultimately other survivors are supposed to take aggro inatead of making the game even easier for survivora
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