http://dbd.game/killswitch
Diminishing Returns Feedback
Comments
-
I understand why the devs want to make these changes, but I hope they don’t make it to live because it will just limit build variety and cause more people to gravitate toward meta builds. As someone who likes to run dedicated builds for healing, and other specific playstyles, these aren’t broken… they’re just fun to experiment with. So not only would you be limiting build variety, but you’d also be taking away the enjoyment for players like me, and making things more confusing for newer players.
4 -
I love the idea on paper as long as you guys actually follow up with balance changes and utilize the new design space this opens up. If it just gets dropped in and there's no follow up, then it's trash.
2 -
Diminishing return should work on addons as well. killer addons should not stack haste, for example double speed blight should not stack.
0 -
Here is the second post I made regarding Diminishing Returns and how they affect the Clown:
IntroductionI am a dedicated Clown main who plays the killer almost exclusively. I've already posted on this forum twice about the upcoming Diminishing Returns update and how it nerfs the killer. I went into more detail in my original post, and would be willing to delve even further at the request of a comment, but the power can now essentially only be supported through addons and not perks which is just a nerf to the power and addon catalog overall.
A Lack of Communication from the Developers
I'm disappointed that the developers haven't addressed the singular party most affected by these changes, which are the Clown mains. Is it intentional? Is it an oversight? Does the balance team think stacking any amount of perks on Clown is problematic? Was this a suggestion from the consultants? Are we going to be receiving compensation buffs in return? There is a good portion of the community who is still under the impression that this change doesn't affect the stacking of powers and perks (I know because I've been very invested and have consistently seen this issue raised). I think it is fair to say that there has been some miscommunication, and I wish the developers would dedicate some time and effort to addressing the Clown community.
My original post was under the assumption that the balance team hadn't thought these changes through with regards to Clown, but I've realized since then that this might be an intentional nerf for whatever reason. The community just doesn't know because the developers haven't been forthcoming with their reasoning behind how they're balancing this particular killer. If it is intentional, then I think we have to have the unfortunate conversation of looking at how we can give the Clown healthy compensation buffs.
If this nerf was unintentional or not thoroughly considered, I think the buff is obvious to me: make the afterpiece antidote (yellow) affect base movement speed instead of giving haste similar to Singularity's Overclock. I understand this is complicated, because you also have to consider how the yellows affect survivor movement speed, but I think you can find a way to solve this issue and avoid an unintentional nerf to one of the weakest killers in the game. Alternatively, you could just make a flat exemption for the Clown that will allow him to stack one perk with his power.
If we are to believe that the developers gave due consideration to the Clown and that this nerf is indeed intentional, we can then consider how we can buff the Clown in return. There are really only three possible buffs to give the killer: buff the yellow, buff the pink, or buff both. However, all three are problematic in the eyes of this Clown main.
Buffing the yellows
We've seen what happens when we buff the yellows too much. Survivors didn't like going against Clown last summer when he had his own little haste meta, and I don't think buffing the yellow bottles makes this killer healthier.
Wouldn't it be different if he couldn't stack haste perks?
Yes, but I think it fundamentally shifts this killer away from where he is right now where he needs to use both bottles in tandem to achieve success in chase. If we buff the yellows too much, nobody will use the pinks. If we don't buff the yellows enough, it is still a nerf to the killer when he can't use haste perks.
What about making the haste addons basekit to restore addon variety?
This is referring to the issue that I discussed in my original forum post on 9.6.0 ptb as well as something that Arinad addressed in his video. If Clown's can't boost the potency of their power through perks like Rapid Brutality, Batteries Included, Play With Your Food, etc., then Clowns can only increase the speed differential by using the two addons that increase the haste from the bottles (Cheap Gin Bottle and Sticky Soda Bottle). This will lead to a boost in the usage rates of these addons, which will likely lead to a future nerf to attempt to rebalance the addon catalog.
Something I've heard suggested, particularly by MintSkull, is to make Cheap Gin Bottle/Sticky Soda Bottle basekit and to rework the addons to do something else. First of all, how basekit are we going to make them? 14% or less is a nerf to the power overall. 15% or higher and we run into the issue of making the pinks worse by the opportunity cost of your bottle economy. With basekit CGB, you now can run 2 more addons to make the bottles even more oppressive than they currently are. Before, I think it was perfectly acceptable to boost your bottles by dedicating perk or addon slots to the power. There was an opportunity cost to not using utility addons or non-chase perks to do so. Now, if we give even more basekit haste to the Clown alongside the opportunity to use more utility addons, we are basically saying 1) you should only ever use yellows and 2) the chase power needed basekit buffs.
The problem that makes Clown weak has nothing to do with the chase power. The power, as it is now, might be in the top 10 chase powers in the game if you play Clown at a high level. You don't have to break 90% of pallets, you can force slow vaults at windows, and you have one of the best natural counters to prerunning as an M1 killer. It is everything else about the Clown that makes him weak. Buffing the strongest part of the power? He becomes excessively oppressive in chase. Nerfing the strongest part of the power? This killer is now weaker and has less to offer the player.
The way it is now is a nice middle ground where there is a perk and addon opportunity cost to buffing the power as a player. Want to have consistent 20% haste with Rapid Brutality and Cheap Gin Bottle? You have to use a perk slot, an addon slot, and you have to activate your haste perk. Giving Clown 15%+ haste basekit and reworking Cheap Gin Bottle? Now you have a free addon slot and a perk slot, and no new Clown players are going to learn to use the pink bottle.
Buffing the pink
If we shouldn't buff the yellows, should we buff the pinks?
First of all, I do think the pink bottles need to be reexamined, especially in a world where Vigil exists. In the live game, we should seriously consider buffing the pink bottle to 15% and the hindered duration back to 2 seconds, which is where it was before. Perhaps a middle-ground where we either increase duration or potency would be a nice change. In live, we should also buff the Flask of Bleach and Ether 15% Vol addons, as they are almost never worth running over the yellow bottle addons.
That being said, buffing the pink bottles may be the safest of the three compensation buffs, but I don't like the idea of it.
What about a minimalist buff to the pinks?
If it is a small buff to the pinks as I described in my suggestions for updating pink bottles on live, it would not be enough to counterset the nerf to the Clown's yellow bottles.
What about a maximalist buff to the pinks?
On the other hand, a large buff to the pinks is not ideal either. It's hard to imagine what would be considered "too large" for this example, but I don't like the idea of further buffing the Clown's chase power from where it is right now. As previously described, the issue with the Clown is everything except the chase potential, and nerfing the chase potential just kills what he has to offer.
A maximalist buff to the pink bottle wouldn't be nearly as harmful to the balance of Clown as buffing the yellow, but I do believe that it would be worse than the current system where there is decision making and opportunity cost for your loadout. I also understand that the developers don't want to return to the older iterations of Clown where low-level players only ever used the pink bottles, so perhaps this isn't the way to approach the problem either.
Is there any other issue with buffing the pinks at all?
There is a key issue with any buff to the pink bottle and its name is Vigil. Any buff to the pink bottle just changes how this feels from match to match depending solely on how many Vigils the survivors have equipped. I'm not sure how we can continue to balance the Clown in a game where Vigil so directly nerfs his power and changes how he plays. Please nerf Vigil or at the very least make an exemption for the Clown (and Freddy's) power. I'm not sure I even want to see a compensation buff for the Clown in the form of a buff to the pink bottles if we can't also get some kind of nerf to Vigil countering his power.
Buffing both the pink and the yellow
This is perhaps the worst of the three, as it would completely destroy the skill expression of the Clown. As he is now, Clown is a killer that once mastered can get hits on the margins that other killers can't. Using both bottles in tandem allows you to cheat the loop in a way to where you just barely get the hit. Buffing both bottles simultaneously seriously risks turning this killer into "slop" or unskilled.
If we did something to the effect of making invigoration 14% and intoxication 16% basekit with addons on top, you basically turn every loop in the game into a death trap for survivors. At the moment, I as a skilled Clown can set up loops in a way to where the survivor has a very difficult time outplaying me… but they CAN outplay me if they know what they're doing. Will they last forever? Probably not, but survivors have a chance to stall me in chase and win the match by extending the chase timers. With any theoretical buff to both, this skilled survivor now has to perform even more perfect and I can perform less optimally.
What about some flat buff to both bottles and reworking any addon that changes the percentage of either bottle?
This would be such a fundamental shift in the gameplay of the killer that I struggle to even imagine its effects. Quite frankly, it would require so much care and attention that I'm not sure anybody could find that sweet spot where the Clown lives in. Furthermore, it again kills addon variety. Right now, you can bring addons to buff the yellows, buff the pinks, give aura, reload faster, shorten the throw cooldown, change the spread, etc. These changes would make it so that you can have buffed bottles AND utility at the same time.
The same problem arises again: it's a nerf if it's not enough and it waters down the killer if it goes too far. I'm not necessarily opposed to buffing the chase power of the Clown, but we need to be smart and really careful about how we go about it. It is already one of the best chase powers in the game, especially for M1 killer, and I think it is a slippery slope to change it in either direction.
Conclusion
What I want first and foremost is clarity from the developers on the issue of how Clown is affected by the PTB changes. If we are looking to provide the Clown with compensation buffs, please consult actual Clown mains and not the consultants. I am left to believe that the consultants either don't understand Clown or that they gave appropriate suggestions regarding the Clown that were ignored, forgotten, or underestimated by the developers.
I'm willing to make additional posts or discuss in the comments how exactly I feel about this issue, including clarification or an expansion on my original post as to why this is a nerf to the Clown, but I think that we just need some communication from the developers on what they have to say about the Clown and his future in Dead By Daylight.
0 -
Just having read through most of the feedback, it seems that a lot of people that are against the Diminishing Returns update are mainly against the current implementation of the Devs, not against the idea itself, and that most people who are pro-diminishing returns are for the idea of it and how it can enable perk design in the future.
Therefore a simple reminder that we can have all the positives of Diminishing Returns yet keep everyone who is against it happy if we just go with the implementation described in: Diminishing Returns & New Perk Keywords — BHVR
1. No unnecessarily harming innocent niche builds
2. No more problems with stacking effects/perks
3. Even more freedom for the Devs than the current implementation
4. No more bad stuff and just the benefits
I just hope the Devs see it-1 -
Currently Diminshing Returns does nothing but ignore all the unique effect Meta Perks like DS, STB and targets niche builds that tend to already be terrible, alot of Perks are also currently balanced around no Dimishing Returns (Dark Arrogance, for example, is a vault perk that by itself is worse than every other vault perk and simply exists to be another vault speed perk)
Its not a massive problem but we will need to see improvements upon it with the upcoming patches.
Also the fact it includes killers main powers like Clown is a bit stupid, Killer power related bonuses should ignore DR, or else youre basically locking a killer out of certain perks cause their basekit gives them a certain effect.0 -
For the long run, this is a good change. Otherwise we are stuck.
0
