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Decisive Strike isn't that powerful

The_Crusader
The_Crusader Member Posts: 3,688
in General Discussions
https://youtu.be/KqCCJLwccuQ

Literally changes the entire outcome of the game 🤣

Had this happen to me so many times. It takes away all momentum from the killer and allows all other survivors to remain on generators.

The perk that only needs to be fun for one side.

Throw in a few tbags at the end too thanks to the "EZ" game. This is your typical killer experience against SWF.
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Comments

  • Plu
    Plu Member Posts: 1,456
    edited February 2019
    Thanks for restating what Tru3 said ages ago.

    To be more accurate tho,  DS is like Dead hard, it can be incredibly ######### or a life saver depending on the skill of the survivor who uses it.

    DS is broken tho, I won't deny it, takes no skill to use for such a huge reward.
  • Vietfox
    Vietfox Member Posts: 3,823
    And people keep using Tru3's videos as an example, hilarious.
  • Vietfox
    Vietfox Member Posts: 3,823
    @The_Crusader @GraviteaUK
    If you guys want to prove how to balance the game around good players then you shouldn't use Tru3's videos, simple as that.
    Every single one of them posted on this forum he made several mistakes.
  • Seanzu
    Seanzu Member Posts: 7,526

    I really don't mind the D-Strike that I know about - I can work around that.

    it's the 33% ones that you waste so much time on, that being said they are few and far between but I do think it warrants being looked at by the devs.

  • Vietfox
    Vietfox Member Posts: 3,823
    The_Crusader said:
    @Vietfox Well the video lasts over 8 minutes and you posted 6 minutes after me so you didn't watch it all and I'd bet that you didn't watch more than 30 seconds.
    Doesn't take long to see Tru3 screwing up.
    The_Crusader said:

    Nobody plays perfect all the time. 
    I agree, but whenever a survivor complains about a killer thing everyone seems to agree (me included) that it was their fault.
    The_Crusader said:
    Fact is he was going to get a basement hook as trapper - which is huge. Survivor denied that, got a free escape, and tru3 got no hook after a lengthy chase - which was huge for the survivors.

    There is no argument to be had. Decisive Strike cost him that game. Had that not happened things would have been massivey different. One perk should not be able to affect the outcome of the game that much.

    Before people cry "but noed!", i don't like noed either.
    Long chase because he's just an ok player, not a good one.
    I don't have any problem with noed, it can stay.
  • Vietfox
    Vietfox Member Posts: 3,823
    @ThirdSealOPplzNerf said:

    @Vietfox said:
    @The_Crusader @GraviteaUK
    If you guys want to prove how to balance the game around good players then you shouldn't use Tru3's videos, simple as that.
    Every single one of them posted on this forum he made several mistakes.

    So he's suppose to be a perfect robot and make no mistakes but survivors can make 10 mistakes and still live because of their broken perks and items? Right nice logic once again.

    Mistakes are always punished as long as the other one knows how to take advantage from them, if they can't then they aren't good enough. There's the logic.
  • Laakeri
    Laakeri Member Posts: 835
    edited February 2019

    Simple math of people who think DS is fair and balanced:

    Lets say it takes 20 seconds to catch somebody after they used DS and all survivors have it.
    1x DS = total of 60 seconds for other 3 survivors to work on gens
    60 seconds = 3/4th of a generator
    3/4th of a generator x 4 = 3 generators completed after every DS is used

    I used DS once as I didnt have decent perk after prestiging and it was similar situation, walmart DS vs Huntress that lost all of her pressure cuz she didnt get more hatchets before picking me up. Switched to Small Game 1 or something after that as I felt so disgusted of what just happened.

    Off Topic: Everyone that has more than 10 hours in this game know Tru3 is not as good as his popularity makes him seem to.

  • Vietfox
    Vietfox Member Posts: 3,823
    @Laakeri said:

    I used DS once as I didnt have decent perk after prestiging and it was similar situation, walmart DS vs Huntress that lost all of her pressure cuz she didnt get more hatchets before picking me up. Switched to Small Game 1 or something after that as I felt so disgusted of what just happened.

    Her fault for not reloading hatchets after downing the obsession. That was a noob mistake.
    Laakeri said:

    Off Topic: Everyone that has more than 10 hours in this game know Tru3 is not as good as his popularity makes him seem to.

    True lol
  • The_Crusader
    The_Crusader Member Posts: 3,688
    edited February 2019
    Even if you want to say Tru3 isn't that good, fine. DS still cost him the game. The same is true of every player who isn't that good.

    They struggle to get hooks, when they finally get one they have it robbed from them. How is this fair on less experienced killers?

    Or is the solution to just bring NOED and hope you aren't against SWF?

    It's a rush right now to see who can have the most broken perks.
  • Vietfox
    Vietfox Member Posts: 3,823
    The_Crusader said:
    Even if you want to say Tru3 isn't that good, fine. DS still cost him the game. The same is true of every player who isn't that good.

    They struggle to get hooks, when they finally get one they have it robbed from them. How is this fair on less experienced killers?

    Or is the solution to just bring NOED and hope you aren't against SWF?

    It's a rush right now to see who can have the most broken perks.
    Since i got here i've kept hearing (or reading), mainly from killer mains, that game should be balanced around good players. Are you telling me that game should be balanced ONLY around good survivors?
    Gimme a ######### break
  • BBQnDemogorgon
    BBQnDemogorgon Member Posts: 3,615
    edited February 2019

    @Vietfox said:
    The_Crusader said:

    Even if you want to say Tru3 isn't that good, fine. DS still cost him the game. The same is true of every player who isn't that good.

    They struggle to get hooks, when they finally get one they have it robbed from them. How is this fair on less experienced killers?

    Or is the solution to just bring NOED and hope you aren't against SWF?

    It's a rush right now to see who can have the most broken perks.

    Since i got here i've kept hearing (or reading), mainly from killer mains, that game should be balanced around good players. Are you telling me that game should be balanced ONLY around good survivors?
    Gimme a [BAD WORD] break

    Yes. Yes we are.

  • Vietfox
    Vietfox Member Posts: 3,823
    @Bbbrian2013 said:

    @Vietfox said:
    The_Crusader said:

    Even if you want to say Tru3 isn't that good, fine. DS still cost him the game. The same is true of every player who isn't that good.

    They struggle to get hooks, when they finally get one they have it robbed from them. How is this fair on less experienced killers?

    Or is the solution to just bring NOED and hope you aren't against SWF?

    It's a rush right now to see who can have the most broken perks.

    Since i got here i've kept hearing (or reading), mainly from killer mains, that game should be balanced around good players. Are you telling me that game should be balanced ONLY around good survivors?
    Gimme a [BAD WORD] break

    Yes. Yes we are.

    Thanks for proving that killer mains like you (not every killer main) just want easy games then.
  • BBQnDemogorgon
    BBQnDemogorgon Member Posts: 3,615

    @Vietfox said:
    @Bbbrian2013 said:

    @Vietfox said:

    The_Crusader said:

    Even if you want to say Tru3 isn't that good, fine. DS still cost him the game. The same is true of every player who isn't that good.

They struggle to get hooks, when they finally get one they have it robbed from them. How is this fair on less experienced killers?

Or is the solution to just bring NOED and hope you aren't against SWF?

It's a rush right now to see who can have the most broken perks.

Since i got here i've kept hearing (or reading), mainly from killer mains, that game should be balanced around good players. Are you telling me that game should be balanced ONLY around good survivors?

    Gimme a [BAD WORD] break

    Yes. Yes we are.

    Thanks for proving that killer mains like you (not every killer main) just want easy games then.

    I'd actually prefer somewhere in the middle.

  • Roobnus
    Roobnus Member Posts: 375

    @Vietfox said:
    Thanks for proving that killer mains like you (not every killer main) just want easy games then.

    You're incredibly biased with that mindset.

    If Killers want easy wins but Survivors don't, why are they so afraid of Killer buffs?

    I could agree with you now and say: "Yes, Killer want easy wins!"

    If you as Survivor don't care about that, you'd say: "Alright, you can get easy wins then because I don't care about that!".

    The fact that Survivors are so afraid of Killer buffs proves that they in fact don't want harder matches. If anything, they want to maintain their easy wins.

  • Vietfox
    Vietfox Member Posts: 3,823
    @Roobnus said:

    @Vietfox said:
    Thanks for proving that killer mains like you (not every killer main) just want easy games then.

    You're incredibly biased with that mindset.

    If Killers want easy wins but Survivors don't, why are they so afraid of Killer buffs?

    I could agree with you now and say: "Yes, Killer want easy wins!"

    If you as Survivor don't care about that, you'd say: "Alright, you can get easy wins then because I don't care about that!".

    The fact that Survivors are so afraid of Killer buffs proves that they in fact don't want harder matches. If anything, they want to maintain their easy wins.

    Feel free to check my 3600 comments you mentioned before and see how i was against many of the survivors buffs proposed.
    Also people who know me well know that i've proposed buffs for killers as well, but don't let that ruin your day.
  • Roobnus
    Roobnus Member Posts: 375
    edited February 2019

    Let me conclude this quickly:

    @Vietfox said:
    Since i got here i've kept hearing (or reading), mainly from killer mains, that game should be balanced around good players. Are you telling me that game should be balanced ONLY around good survivors?

    @Bbbrian2013 said:
    Yes. Yes we are.

    @Vietfox said:
    Thanks for proving that killer mains like you (not every killer main) just want easy games then.

    Summarize:
    -> Are you telling me that the game should be balanced only around good survivors?

    -> Yes

    -> In that case you're a Killer main that just want's easy wins.

    Please explain to me how asking for balance in high rank has ANYTHING to do with

    • being a killer main
    • wanting easy wins

    If that's not biased, what else is it? There is absolutely no relation to either Killer main nor easy wins, it's just a straight clear statement that they want the game to be balanced around high rank players (and so do I).

    I don't care what your 3600 comments tell, the fact is that you posts of people you believe are Killer mains and twist their argument into killer / survivor discussions or about how Killers just want easy wins while the original point has absolutely nothing to do with it.

  • Vietfox
    Vietfox Member Posts: 3,823
    Roobnus said:

    Let me conclude this quickly:

    @Vietfox said:
    Since i got here i've kept hearing (or reading), mainly from killer mains, that game should be balanced around good players. Are you telling me that game should be balanced ONLY around good survivors?

    @Bbbrian2013 said:
    Yes. Yes we are.

    @Vietfox said:
    Thanks for proving that killer mains like you (not every killer main) just want easy games then.

    Summarize:
    -> Are you telling me that the game should be balanced only around good survivors?

    -> Yes

    -> In that case you're a Killer main that just want's easy wins.

    Please explain to me how asking for balance in high rank has ANYTHING to do with

    • being a killer main
    • wanting easy wins

    If that's not biased, what else is it? There is absolutely no relation to either Killer main nor easy wins, it's just a straight clear statement that they want the game to be balanced around high rank players (and so do I).

    I don't care what your 3600 comments tell, the fact is that you posts of people you believe are Killer mains and twist their argument into killer / survivor discussions or about how Killers just want easy wins while the original point has absolutely nothing to do with it.

    Pleas read again:

    Players = both killers and survivors
    Survivors = only survivors

    Do you really need more clues?
  • Roobnus
    Roobnus Member Posts: 375

    @Vietfox said:
    Pleas read again:

    Players = both killers and survivors
    Survivors = only survivors

    Do you really need more clues?

    Do you realize that "balance" indicates the power gap between two (or more) sides or mechanics, in this case Survivors and Killers?

    You can't balance Survivors without considering the Killers, otherwise it wouldn't be balanced.

    If people say balance the game around high skill survivors Survivors, it means that high skill survivors should be the ones that set the benchmark for "balance" and everything needs to be adjusted to match up with that.

  • Vietfox
    Vietfox Member Posts: 3,823
    @Roobnus said:

    @Vietfox said:
    Pleas read again:

    Players = both killers and survivors
    Survivors = only survivors

    Do you really need more clues?

    Do you realize that "balance" indicates the power gap between two (or more) sides or mechanics, in this case Survivors and Killers?

    You can't balance Survivors without considering the Killers, otherwise it wouldn't be balanced.

    If people say balance the game around high skill survivors Survivors, it means that high skill survivors should be the ones that set the benchmark for "balance" and everything needs to be adjusted to match up with that.

    Yes i do realize about that, but if we keep going this way we are gonna give enough tools to mediocre killers to be able to defeat good survivors. I wouldn't call that balance.
  • HavelmomDaS1
    HavelmomDaS1 Member Posts: 1,948
    Vietfox said:
    @The_Crusader @GraviteaUK
    If you guys want to prove how to balance the game around good players then you shouldn't use Tru3's videos, simple as that.
    Every single one of them posted on this forum he made several mistakes.
    So you basically trying to imply he made massive mistakes in this match. Can you explain to use what the mistakes are Mr. Professional Killer ?
  • Delfador
    Delfador Member Posts: 2,552

    DS is, imo, unbalanced and caused enough problems for this game. Even though 1 DS is manageable, it would be better if they completely changed the perk.

    It is just going to create more problems for people and divide them.

    Same goes for the NOED, maybe that perk is the most balanced perk in the game but it has caused enough problems, changing it AFTER secondary objectives is the way to go imo.

  • HavelmomDaS1
    HavelmomDaS1 Member Posts: 1,948
    edited February 2019
    Captain_Spaulding said:

    I just don't get the reason of why so many people hate Tru3. I get that he can be biased. I get that he complains. The dude has literally been playing since Beta though. He's not bad as either killer or survivor. In fact I don't see a lot of people playing EVERY killer on rotation constantly and performing well. The only other person who did an entire series of perkless and add-on less to rank 1 was zubatlel(who I think is also really good) and performed very [BAD WORD] well. However zubat did it with only 3 killers. The easiest 3 imo. Yes, I love puppers and hybridpanda and monto. Do I think they can genuinely only play killer without getting stressed and complain about things? No. No one can play this game consistently and not complain about broken ass mechanics such as DS, hitboxes, tunneling, camping, etc etc. All in all, Tru3 not that bad and some of his complaints warrant good discussions and need fixing.
    Side note: Personally believe only one survivor per match should allowed to use DS. That person can either be the worst survivor who needs it cause they suck balls in chase, or the best one who can run laps around the map without getting caught. Every survivor having it in the match, while rare as [BAD WORD], can break the game immensely.

    You forgot Marth88, he was probably the first one who did this challenge with a lot of different killers
  • The_Crusader
    The_Crusader Member Posts: 3,688
    Vietfox said:
    The_Crusader said:
    Even if you want to say Tru3 isn't that good, fine. DS still cost him the game. The same is true of every player who isn't that good.

    They struggle to get hooks, when they finally get one they have it robbed from them. How is this fair on less experienced killers?

    Or is the solution to just bring NOED and hope you aren't against SWF?

    It's a rush right now to see who can have the most broken perks.
    Since i got here i've kept hearing (or reading), mainly from killer mains, that game should be balanced around good players. Are you telling me that game should be balanced ONLY around good survivors?
    Gimme a [BAD WORD] break
    Where did I say that?

    I'm saying there shouldn't be perks like NOED/DS which both have the potential to absolutely change the outcome of the game.

    These 2 perks can be so much more powerful than any other perk.
  • Vietfox
    Vietfox Member Posts: 3,823
    @The_Crusader said:
    @Vietfox said:
    The_Crusader said:
    Even if you want to say Tru3 isn't that good, fine. DS still cost him the game. The same is true of every player who isn't that good.

    They struggle to get hooks, when they finally get one they have it robbed from them. How is this fair on less experienced killers?

    Or is the solution to just bring NOED and hope you aren't against SWF?

    It's a rush right now to see who can have the most broken perks.
    Since i got here i've kept hearing (or reading), mainly from killer mains, that game should be balanced around good players. Are you telling me that game should be balanced ONLY around good survivors?
    Gimme a [BAD WORD] break
    Where did I say that?
    Right here: "How is this fair on less experienced killers?"
  • Roobnus
    Roobnus Member Posts: 375
    edited February 2019

    @Vietfox said:
    Yes i do realize about that, but if we keep going this way we are gonna give enough tools to mediocre killers to be able to defeat good survivors. I wouldn't call that balance.

    Not necessarily, no.

    I'd say current balance is like this:

    Low skilled Killers > Low Skilled Survivors
    Mid skilled Killers = Mid skilled Survivors
    High skilled Killers < high skilled Survivors

    Anticipated balance is this:
    Low skilled Killers = Low Skilled Survivors
    Mid skilled Killers = Mid skilled Survivors
    High skilled Killers = high skilled Survivors

    Each skill bracket is balanced.

    If we balance around high skilled players, people always expect it to look like this:

    Low skilled Killers >> Low Skilled Survivors
    Mid skilled Killers > Mid skilled Survivors
    High skilled Killers = high skilled Survivors

    That doesn't have to be the case. No one says we had to screw over the balance for the low and mid skilled players, it should totally be balanced in those skill brackets aswell BUT I say the core balance, the benchmark should be aimed at high rank players because they play the game in an optimal and efficient way. Others make too many mistakes, lack the skill and experience to truly make use of certain mechanics ect, it's hard to consider such things when you want to balance. You look at rough power of perks and mechanics without considering human failure, that's an optimal playstyle and if both sides play optimally, that should lead to a balanced match.

    And to be a bit more related to OP: If you consider that, you'll find out that DS, in the hand of high skilled survivors, is indeed too strong. You can handle 1 or 2 but 4? No. Either limit DS for just the obsession and find a weaker alternative for non-obsession (weaker regarding it's effect) or completly rework it.

  • The_Crusader
    The_Crusader Member Posts: 3,688
    Vietfox said:
    @The_Crusader said:
    @Vietfox said:
    The_Crusader said:
    Even if you want to say Tru3 isn't that good, fine. DS still cost him the game. The same is true of every player who isn't that good.

    They struggle to get hooks, when they finally get one they have it robbed from them. How is this fair on less experienced killers?

    Or is the solution to just bring NOED and hope you aren't against SWF?

    It's a rush right now to see who can have the most broken perks.
    Since i got here i've kept hearing (or reading), mainly from killer mains, that game should be balanced around good players. Are you telling me that game should be balanced ONLY around good survivors?
    Gimme a [BAD WORD] break
    Where did I say that?
    Right here: "How is this fair on less experienced killers?"
    What I'm saying is if they're not very good they won't be getting many hooks anyway. Let them at least have the ones they would get, rather than taking it away from them with a free escape perk.

    In the same way NOED is unfair on solo survivors when there is no indication of which unlit totems are cleansed.

    End of the day whether it's on here, reddit, youtube videos etc the two most common topics of discussion are NOED and DS. Seems both perks are villified. I'd love to see a trial on the ptb where both perks are disabled and see how the games go and if they're more fun.
  • Bravo0413
    Bravo0413 Member Posts: 3,647
    Captain_Spaulding said:

    I just don't get the reason of why so many people hate Tru3. I get that he can be biased. I get that he complains. The dude has literally been playing since Beta though. He's not bad as either killer or survivor. In fact I don't see a lot of people playing EVERY killer on rotation constantly and performing well. The only other person who did an entire series of perkless and add-on less to rank 1 was zubatlel(who I think is also really good) and performed very [BAD WORD] well. However zubat did it with only 3 killers. The easiest 3 imo. Yes, I love puppers and hybridpanda and monto. Do I think they can genuinely only play killer without getting stressed and complain about things? No. No one can play this game consistently and not complain about broken ass mechanics such as DS, hitboxes, tunneling, camping, etc etc. All in all, Tru3 not that bad and some of his complaints warrant good discussions and need fixing.
    Side note: Personally believe only one survivor per match should allowed to use DS. That person can either be the worst survivor who needs it cause they suck balls in chase, or the best one who can run laps around the map without getting caught. Every survivor having it in the match, while rare as [BAD WORD], can break the game immensely.

    Yeah I watched a bit of zubats run... and like you said he only did the 3... huntress, Billy, nurse... Is he really good with the 3... ######### yeah he is.... hes the type of nurse when casuals watch him play that make them say "nurse op".... but he steers far away from clown or pig... ya need to pay him to play those killers... 
  • Peasant
    Peasant Member Posts: 4,104
    Plu said:
    Thanks for restating what Tru3 said ages ago.

    To be more accurate tho,  DS is like Dead hard, it can be incredibly ######### or a life saver depending on the skill of the survivor who uses it.

    DS is broken tho, I won't deny it, takes no skill to use for such a huge reward.
    Breakdown makes non obsession DS guaranteed if the killer camps so that's something that happens now. Only really affects campers though.
  • Delfador
    Delfador Member Posts: 2,552

    @The_Crusader said:

    What I'm saying is if they're not very good they won't be getting many hooks anyway. Let them at least have the ones they would get, rather than taking it away from them with a free escape perk.

    In the same way NOED is unfair on solo survivors when there is no indication of which unlit totems are cleansed.

    End of the day whether it's on here, reddit, youtube videos etc the two most common topics of discussion are NOED and DS. Seems both perks are villified. I'd love to see a trial on the ptb where both perks are disabled and see how the games go and if they're more fun.

    Agreed, both perks caused enough problems and for the sake of future balance and fun of the game, both of them should go.

    It is not even about balance, these 2 perks divide the community too much, not having them is a lot healthier.

  • The_Crusader
    The_Crusader Member Posts: 3,688
    Delfador said:

    @The_Crusader said:

    What I'm saying is if they're not very good they won't be getting many hooks anyway. Let them at least have the ones they would get, rather than taking it away from them with a free escape perk.

    In the same way NOED is unfair on solo survivors when there is no indication of which unlit totems are cleansed.

    End of the day whether it's on here, reddit, youtube videos etc the two most common topics of discussion are NOED and DS. Seems both perks are villified. I'd love to see a trial on the ptb where both perks are disabled and see how the games go and if they're more fun.

    Agreed, both perks caused enough problems and for the sake of future balance and fun of the game, both of them should go.

    It is not even about balance, these 2 perks divide the community too much, not having them is a lot healthier.

    Exactly. Tru3 was right when he called DS a "fun sponge".

    It's not just OP, it's really sucks the fun out of playing killer.

    Adrenaline or insta heals can feel powerful but they don't provide that same gut wrenching feeling as working hard in a chase and then having it ripped away from you with no counter play.

    NOED isn't that much of an issue for me in swf but solo yeah it just feels cheap. Taking out 4 totems and then going down anyway and being camped out because the other survivors cant get the last totem. Killers should be encouraging solo play so this needs to go.

    Plus there is the fact that anyone can use Noed. On a weak killer you can spend time cleansing totems, on a good Billy though you're under that much pressure you don't have time to cleanse them all and yes good killers still use Noed.
  • Bongbingbing
    Bongbingbing Member Posts: 1,423

    I keep seeing the same argument made in defense of DS that Killers 'made mistakes'.
    Isn't that the whole thing that brakes DS It rewards the survivor a second chance for a mistake and a slap in the face for a killer who did the right thing.

    I Didn't realize Killers had to play like robots and make no mistakes :lol: and not to mention the effect a killer has on the match is hugely reliant on the survivors mistakes.

    Anyone who defends DS is obviously Biased.

  • Vietfox
    Vietfox Member Posts: 3,823
    @Roobnus said:

    @Vietfox said:
    Yes i do realize about that, but if we keep going this way we are gonna give enough tools to mediocre killers to be able to defeat good survivors. I wouldn't call that balance.

    Not necessarily, no.

    I'd say current balance is like this:

    Low skilled Killers > Low Skilled Survivors
    Mid skilled Killers = Mid skilled Survivors
    High skilled Killers < high skilled Survivors

    Anticipated balance is this:
    Low skilled Killers = Low Skilled Survivors
    Mid skilled Killers = Mid skilled Survivors
    High skilled Killers = high skilled Survivors

    Each skill bracket is balanced.

    If we balance around high skilled players, people always expect it to look like this:

    Low skilled Killers >> Low Skilled Survivors
    Mid skilled Killers > Mid skilled Survivors
    High skilled Killers = high skilled Survivors

    That doesn't have to be the case. No one says we had to screw over the balance for the low and mid skilled players, it should totally be balanced in those skill brackets aswell BUT I say the core balance, the benchmark should be aimed at high rank players because they play the game in an optimal and efficient way. Others make too many mistakes, lack the skill and experience to truly make use of certain mechanics ect, it's hard to consider such things when you want to balance. You look at rough power of perks and mechanics without considering human failure, that's an optimal playstyle and if both sides play optimally, that should lead to a balanced match.

    And to be a bit more related to OP: If you consider that, you'll find out that DS, in the hand of high skilled survivors, is indeed too strong. You can handle 1 or 2 but 4? No. Either limit DS for just the obsession and find a weaker alternative for non-obsession (weaker regarding it's effect) or completly rework it.

    Good swf just need 1 DS, 2 at most. 4 DS is a clear sign that they suck.
  • The_Crusader
    The_Crusader Member Posts: 3,688
    Vietfox said:
    @Roobnus said:

    @Vietfox said:
    Yes i do realize about that, but if we keep going this way we are gonna give enough tools to mediocre killers to be able to defeat good survivors. I wouldn't call that balance.

    Not necessarily, no.

    I'd say current balance is like this:

    Low skilled Killers > Low Skilled Survivors
    Mid skilled Killers = Mid skilled Survivors
    High skilled Killers < high skilled Survivors

    Anticipated balance is this:
    Low skilled Killers = Low Skilled Survivors
    Mid skilled Killers = Mid skilled Survivors
    High skilled Killers = high skilled Survivors

    Each skill bracket is balanced.

    If we balance around high skilled players, people always expect it to look like this:

    Low skilled Killers >> Low Skilled Survivors
    Mid skilled Killers > Mid skilled Survivors
    High skilled Killers = high skilled Survivors

    That doesn't have to be the case. No one says we had to screw over the balance for the low and mid skilled players, it should totally be balanced in those skill brackets aswell BUT I say the core balance, the benchmark should be aimed at high rank players because they play the game in an optimal and efficient way. Others make too many mistakes, lack the skill and experience to truly make use of certain mechanics ect, it's hard to consider such things when you want to balance. You look at rough power of perks and mechanics without considering human failure, that's an optimal playstyle and if both sides play optimally, that should lead to a balanced match.

    And to be a bit more related to OP: If you consider that, you'll find out that DS, in the hand of high skilled survivors, is indeed too strong. You can handle 1 or 2 but 4? No. Either limit DS for just the obsession and find a weaker alternative for non-obsession (weaker regarding it's effect) or completly rework it.

    Good swf just need 1 DS, 2 at most. 4 DS is a clear sign that they suck.
    But plenty of good players still use DS. There's no requirement that you need to suck in order to use it.
  • Vietfox
    Vietfox Member Posts: 3,823
    The_Crusader said:
    Vietfox said:
    @The_Crusader said:
    @Vietfox said:
    The_Crusader said:
    Even if you want to say Tru3 isn't that good, fine. DS still cost him the game. The same is true of every player who isn't that good.

    They struggle to get hooks, when they finally get one they have it robbed from them. How is this fair on less experienced killers?

    Or is the solution to just bring NOED and hope you aren't against SWF?

    It's a rush right now to see who can have the most broken perks.
    Since i got here i've kept hearing (or reading), mainly from killer mains, that game should be balanced around good players. Are you telling me that game should be balanced ONLY around good survivors?
    Gimme a [BAD WORD] break
    Where did I say that?
    Right here: "How is this fair on less experienced killers?"
    What I'm saying is if they're not very good they won't be getting many hooks anyway. Let them at least have the ones they would get, rather than taking it away from them with a free escape perk.

    In the same way NOED is unfair on solo survivors when there is no indication of which unlit totems are cleansed.

    End of the day whether it's on here, reddit, youtube videos etc the two most common topics of discussion are NOED and DS. Seems both perks are villified. I'd love to see a trial on the ptb where both perks are disabled and see how the games go and if they're more fun.
    NOED is NOT unfair for solos at all, they just refuse to adapt.
    Small game is part of my solo build for a very good reason, mainly because randoms don't care about totems.

  • Vietfox
    Vietfox Member Posts: 3,823
    The_Crusader said:
    Vietfox said:
    @Roobnus said:

    @Vietfox said:
    Yes i do realize about that, but if we keep going this way we are gonna give enough tools to mediocre killers to be able to defeat good survivors. I wouldn't call that balance.

    Not necessarily, no.

    I'd say current balance is like this:

    Low skilled Killers > Low Skilled Survivors
    Mid skilled Killers = Mid skilled Survivors
    High skilled Killers < high skilled Survivors

    Anticipated balance is this:
    Low skilled Killers = Low Skilled Survivors
    Mid skilled Killers = Mid skilled Survivors
    High skilled Killers = high skilled Survivors

    Each skill bracket is balanced.

    If we balance around high skilled players, people always expect it to look like this:

    Low skilled Killers >> Low Skilled Survivors
    Mid skilled Killers > Mid skilled Survivors
    High skilled Killers = high skilled Survivors

    That doesn't have to be the case. No one says we had to screw over the balance for the low and mid skilled players, it should totally be balanced in those skill brackets aswell BUT I say the core balance, the benchmark should be aimed at high rank players because they play the game in an optimal and efficient way. Others make too many mistakes, lack the skill and experience to truly make use of certain mechanics ect, it's hard to consider such things when you want to balance. You look at rough power of perks and mechanics without considering human failure, that's an optimal playstyle and if both sides play optimally, that should lead to a balanced match.

    And to be a bit more related to OP: If you consider that, you'll find out that DS, in the hand of high skilled survivors, is indeed too strong. You can handle 1 or 2 but 4? No. Either limit DS for just the obsession and find a weaker alternative for non-obsession (weaker regarding it's effect) or completly rework it.

    Good swf just need 1 DS, 2 at most. 4 DS is a clear sign that they suck.
    But plenty of good players still use DS. There's no requirement that you need to suck in order to use it.
    If they suck they are easy to be downed in no time again
  • The_Crusader
    The_Crusader Member Posts: 3,688
    Vietfox said:
    The_Crusader said:
    Vietfox said:
    @The_Crusader said:
    @Vietfox said:
    The_Crusader said:
    Even if you want to say Tru3 isn't that good, fine. DS still cost him the game. The same is true of every player who isn't that good.

    They struggle to get hooks, when they finally get one they have it robbed from them. How is this fair on less experienced killers?

    Or is the solution to just bring NOED and hope you aren't against SWF?

    It's a rush right now to see who can have the most broken perks.
    Since i got here i've kept hearing (or reading), mainly from killer mains, that game should be balanced around good players. Are you telling me that game should be balanced ONLY around good survivors?
    Gimme a [BAD WORD] break
    Where did I say that?
    Right here: "How is this fair on less experienced killers?"
    What I'm saying is if they're not very good they won't be getting many hooks anyway. Let them at least have the ones they would get, rather than taking it away from them with a free escape perk.

    In the same way NOED is unfair on solo survivors when there is no indication of which unlit totems are cleansed.

    End of the day whether it's on here, reddit, youtube videos etc the two most common topics of discussion are NOED and DS. Seems both perks are villified. I'd love to see a trial on the ptb where both perks are disabled and see how the games go and if they're more fun.
    NOED is NOT unfair for solos at all, they just refuse to adapt.
    Small game is part of my solo build for a very good reason, mainly because randoms don't care about totems.

    Small game doesnt work on uncleansed totems. I have no idea how many other survivors have done so now I'm running around with only my eyes again trying to spot cleansed totems well.

    Plus why does 1 survivor have to do all totems? It gives a huge advantage to the killer having 1 zurvivor off gens.

    Its something thats 1000 times easier for swf, and when there is such a huge penalty if you dont cleanse them then yeah it's an issue.
  • Roobnus
    Roobnus Member Posts: 375

    @Vietfox in other words, you'd say that DC is only allowed for players that need handholding. Players that lack the skill to be otherwise successful?

    So, your suggestion would be to deny certain perks from being used once you reach a specific skill bracket? Or do you plan on stopping high skilled players from using DS?

    It's not like no high skill player uses DS. Some players specificly use it BECAUSE it's broken, not because they need it.

  • Vietfox
    Vietfox Member Posts: 3,823
    @Roobnus said:

    @Vietfox in other words, you'd say that DC is only allowed for players that need handholding. Players that lack the skill to be otherwise successful?

    So, your suggestion would be to deny certain perks from being used once you reach a specific skill bracket? Or do you plan on stopping high skilled players from using DS?

    It's not like no high skill player uses DS. Some players specificly use it BECAUSE it's broken, not because they need it.

    I never run DS, except for the memes and when i got the daily of being chased as X survivor for 2 minutes (i main Feng). I don't like one time use or end game perks (except adrenaline).
    I got used to do well without it, same as a killer without ruin or noed.
    If DS was that good i would run it all the time, but i don't.
    I've said it many times, if 4 DS is a problem then increase the wiggle progress needed for each survivor running DS (10 or 15%), problem solved.
  • Vietfox
    Vietfox Member Posts: 3,823
    The_Crusader said:
    Vietfox said:
    The_Crusader said:
    Vietfox said:
    @The_Crusader said:
    @Vietfox said:
    The_Crusader said:
    Even if you want to say Tru3 isn't that good, fine. DS still cost him the game. The same is true of every player who isn't that good.

    They struggle to get hooks, when they finally get one they have it robbed from them. How is this fair on less experienced killers?

    Or is the solution to just bring NOED and hope you aren't against SWF?

    It's a rush right now to see who can have the most broken perks.
    Since i got here i've kept hearing (or reading), mainly from killer mains, that game should be balanced around good players. Are you telling me that game should be balanced ONLY around good survivors?
    Gimme a [BAD WORD] break
    Where did I say that?
    Right here: "How is this fair on less experienced killers?"
    What I'm saying is if they're not very good they won't be getting many hooks anyway. Let them at least have the ones they would get, rather than taking it away from them with a free escape perk.

    In the same way NOED is unfair on solo survivors when there is no indication of which unlit totems are cleansed.

    End of the day whether it's on here, reddit, youtube videos etc the two most common topics of discussion are NOED and DS. Seems both perks are villified. I'd love to see a trial on the ptb where both perks are disabled and see how the games go and if they're more fun.
    NOED is NOT unfair for solos at all, they just refuse to adapt.
    Small game is part of my solo build for a very good reason, mainly because randoms don't care about totems.

    Small game doesnt work on uncleansed totems. I have no idea how many other survivors have done so now I'm running around with only my eyes again trying to spot cleansed totems well.

    Plus why does 1 survivor have to do all totems? It gives a huge advantage to the killer having 1 zurvivor off gens.

    Its something thats 1000 times easier for swf, and when there is such a huge penalty if you dont cleanse them then yeah it's an issue.
    I like to play solo precisely for that extra challenge. Doesn't bother me at all to do what the other ones don't want to do.
  • Roobnus
    Roobnus Member Posts: 375

    @Vietfox said:
    I never run DS, except for the memes and when i got the daily of being chased as X survivor for 2 minutes (i main Feng). I don't like one time use or end game perks (except adrenaline).
    I got used to do well without it, same as a killer without ruin or noed.
    If DS was that good i would run it all the time, but i don't.
    I've said it many times, if 4 DS is a problem then increase the wiggle progress needed for each survivor running DS (10 or 15%), problem solved.

    That's great if you don't run it! Others run in 24/7, regardless of their dailies.

    4 DS is a problem in my opinion, yes. Increasing the required wiggle progress could be a solution and it would be nice if we get the chance to test something like that, just to see if it fixes the issue.

    After all, it would still be better than no fix at all.

  • The_Crusader
    The_Crusader Member Posts: 3,688
    DS is an obsession perk. Why does anyone other than the obsession get to use it?

    Ok lets make it fair. If I bring Dying Light I get to use it on anyone with an obsession perk too.

    25% speed reduction if the obsession is dead, 10-15% for every survivor killed carrying an obsession perk.

    Oh wait....that would be fair. We can't have that.
  • Tarvesh
    Tarvesh Member Posts: 765
    What about making it so that no survivor in SWF can bring the same perk, or bring more than two of the same perks?
  • The_Crusader
    The_Crusader Member Posts: 3,688
    Tarvesh said:
    What about making it so that no survivor in SWF can bring the same perk, or bring more than two of the same perks?
    Its not just swf that bring multiple DS.

    4 solos can bring it, each one hoping to be the obsession.

    The devs know DS its op, they've admitted it, but still....nothing.