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Killers relying on add-ons is bad game design
Add-ons should be used to tweak an already balanced power and not be used to make up for weaknesses in the killers
base kit. This would allow for more choice in what add-ons to bring.
Here are some examples of add-on dependency:
Trapper: trap carry capacity
Wraith: movement speed/uncloak
Huntress: hatchet wind up time
Hag: teleport range
Cannibal: chainsaw charge time
Doctor: shock therapy range
Clown: effect duration/hindered
*As a side note, having to go through a blood-web after every game/other game just to get certain add-ons makes killers even more grind dependent than it is for perks and hurts killer variety.
Comments
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Trapper I disagree with cause it sorta changes his playstyle in a way other killers don't? But honestly yeah, add-ons that just slightly strengthen an ability rather than modify it are boring. If a killer needs that boost to be effective, they should probably have it as base kit. If not it feels redundant to have. Still, some DO change the way you can use a killer even if it's not immediately evident.2
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They made a good step with the pig change imo, you can play her now without the fast uncrouch addons. Imo these changes should be done with every single Kilker and addons should only boost/buff the power a little bit or change it completely.0
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Yeah, some killers need built in addons to be better. I'm not saying give Legion Frank's mixtape as base kit or iredecent hatches for huntress as base kit, but some addons such as Rule set no.2 for pig should be built in, shock range for doctor should be built in ect. Just some if the QoL addons not the ones that have such a big impact on the match.0
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On one hand, i feel like it's only natural that you'll do worse if you have no Add-ons and the other side does.
On the other hand, i feel like that concept by itself may be flawed.Nonetheless, some Killers in general are still lacking behind too hard, though i wouldn't name all of those Killers...
P.S. Devs, fix the 4 useless Add-ons on Cannibal already, mkay?
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The thing is though...if they made killers abilities "good" at base, then add ons would make it OP. So you need a weakish power at base and then scale it with add ons.
It is a strange design choice but I can kinda see what they're doing.3 -
@ClogWench said:
Trapper I disagree with cause it sorta changes his playstyle in a way other killers don't? But honestly yeah, add-ons that just slightly strengthen an ability rather than modify it are boring. If a killer needs that boost to be effective, they should probably have it as base kit. If not it feels redundant to have. Still, some DO change the way you can use a killer even if it's not immediately evident.What exactly do you disagree with? Trapper is dependent on his "trapper sack", "trapper bag" and "stitched bag" add-ons because only being able to carry 1 trap at base sucks.
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Oh my bad, I misunderstood. I thought you were implying trapper players shouldn't rely on trapper bag, and I felt it should be basekit. Seems we're on the same page on this thenSpongeBob420Pants said:@ClogWench said:
Trapper I disagree with cause it sorta changes his playstyle in a way other killers don't? But honestly yeah, add-ons that just slightly strengthen an ability rather than modify it are boring. If a killer needs that boost to be effective, they should probably have it as base kit. If not it feels redundant to have. Still, some DO change the way you can use a killer even if it's not immediately evident.What exactly do you disagree with? Trapper is dependent on his "trapper sack", "trapper bag" and "stitched bag" add-ons because only being able to carry 1 trap at base sucks.
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@The_Crusader said:
The thing is though...if they made killers abilities "good" at base, then add ons would make it OP. So you need a weakish power at base and then scale it with add ons.It is a strange design choice but I can kinda see what they're doing.
Well, the Pig's combat straps change buffed her when not using it and made it unchanged when she is, so I think people want more of that and less stuff like the Doctor's shock range being wayy too short unless he uses addons. The main issue is that a lot of killers feel naked without specific addons (often not even very rare tier,) and since its random chance how many bloodwebs you have to grind to keep stock of said addons....
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@ClogWench said:
SpongeBob420Pants said:@ClogWench said:
Trapper I disagree with cause it sorta changes his playstyle in a way other killers don't? But honestly yeah, add-ons that just slightly strengthen an ability rather than modify it are boring. If a killer needs that boost to be effective, they should probably have it as base kit. If not it feels redundant to have. Still, some DO change the way you can use a killer even if it's not immediately evident.
What exactly do you disagree with? Trapper is dependent on his "trapper sack", "trapper bag" and "stitched bag" add-ons because only being able to carry 1 trap at base sucks.
Oh my bad, I misunderstood. I thought you were implying trapper players shouldn't rely on trapper bag, and I felt it should be basekit. Seems we're on the same page on this then
Wait, what?
My original post is to make the point that no killer should be dependent on a specific add-on, trapper needing his "bag" add-ons is an example of a killer needing a specific add-on to make up for base kit weakness.
Trapper should be able to carry at least 2 traps at base.
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Yeah that's what I'm saying, I misunderstood at first. I agree completely with your first comment, sorry for the confusionSpongeBob420Pants said:@ClogWench said:
SpongeBob420Pants said:@ClogWench said:
Trapper I disagree with cause it sorta changes his playstyle in a way other killers don't? But honestly yeah, add-ons that just slightly strengthen an ability rather than modify it are boring. If a killer needs that boost to be effective, they should probably have it as base kit. If not it feels redundant to have. Still, some DO change the way you can use a killer even if it's not immediately evident.
What exactly do you disagree with? Trapper is dependent on his "trapper sack", "trapper bag" and "stitched bag" add-ons because only being able to carry 1 trap at base sucks.
Oh my bad, I misunderstood. I thought you were implying trapper players shouldn't rely on trapper bag, and I felt it should be basekit. Seems we're on the same page on this then
Wait, what?
My original post is to make the point that no killer should be dependent on a specific add-on, trapper needing his "bag" add-ons is an example of a killer needing a specific add-on to make up for base kit weakness.
Trapper should be able to carry at least 2 traps at base.
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I disagree that Huntress needs wind up add-ons. It helps for sure, but you can do just fine without them. Hag also I don't think needs range add-ons.
Trapper I agree 100% though. He really should be able to carry 2 traps at base.
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Well obviously you would adjust the addons (-> nerfing them) so at the end it's still nearly the same but just without using addons. Same they did with pigs uncrouch addonsThe_Crusader said:The thing is though...if they made killers abilities "good" at base, then add ons would make it OP. So you need a weakish power at base and then scale it with add ons.
It is a strange design choice but I can kinda see what they're doing.3 -
Yeah I've been saying this for a while. Way too many killers are far too addon dependent. They need to bake some of them into their base power and nerf the addons slightly to compensate.
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@The_Crusader said:
The thing is though...if they made killers abilities "good" at base, then add ons would make it OP. So you need a weakish power at base and then scale it with add ons.It is a strange design choice but I can kinda see what they're doing.
Oh look another non argument just towing the line. "It would make killers OP" isn't an argument. When a power is completely useless without an addon it needs fixing. Try and hit Doctors shock therapy without a range addon. Though to do so you'll actually have to queue killer at some point.
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I'll also add that some killers have way too powerful add-ons being already good. Insta-chainsaw/Steering wheel Billy or 3+ blinks on Nurse.
Things need to change, and quickly before everyone gets tired of the situation.
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@NurseMainBTW said:
I'll also add that some killers have way too powerful add-ons being already good. Insta-chainsaw/Steering wheel Billy or 3+ blinks on Nurse.Things need to change, and quickly before everyone gets tired of the situation.
Link some videos of you wrecking shop with 2 blinks.
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I don't, but I stopped using 3 blinks from a while now. The only exception to the rule is if I just have too many or I want to use Jenner's last breath.
I'm serious, I'd rather have the additional blinks change in different power-ups because they become obsolete at a certain point.
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I think if you're playing at rank one the majority of the time you "Should" need addons.
If you're supposedly playing against the best and never needed addons to compete then that would point towards the idea that addons are just OP anyway.
And the whole "addons built in" malarky is silly. It's not that these addons should be "built in" it's that the killers should just have had that as base.
The wraith doesn't have "swift hunt" built in, it was just the best way for devs to describe what they were doing. They agreed that to make him stronger and more enjoyable to play he should have the speed coming out of cloak.
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Spirit too.
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Thats kinda what the argument is, @SenzuDuck . A lot of addons are for making rather weak parts of a killer more viable, when in reality they should be either minor boosts, or game changers. Since they take a constant commitment of bloodpoints to be able to replenish, they cause a lot more grind when deemed "necessary" to cover a weakness in a killer. The change to Pig's combat straps is what most of us want for a lot more addons... basically make it hurt less when we can't afford to use them.
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@The_Crusader said:
The thing is though...if they made killers abilities "good" at base, then add ons would make it OP. So you need a weakish power at base and then scale it with add ons.It is a strange design choice but I can kinda see what they're doing.
Wrong!, they can take the buff philosophy of the pig (make the ability better and the add-on worse to compensate) and apply it to other killers.
As for "It is a strange design choice" it is not a choice but rather a flaw.
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Since the Pig's change I don;t use add-ons at all, don't need them unless I want to have fun, other killers NEED their add-ons to be playable and that's not cool when you have spend around 50K per bloodweb and not get the add-ons you need from the next one so you're still handicapped.
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@HatCreature said:
Since the Pig's change I don;t use add-ons at all, don't need them unless I want to have fun, other killers NEED their add-ons to be playable and that's not cool when you have spend around 50K per bloodweb and not get the add-ons you need from the next one so you're still handicapped.Ya, the pig buff (make the power stronger and the add-on weaker) is the best way to go about buffing/fixing other killers.
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Reiterating what many have already said: Killers shouldn't depend on addons, and addons shouldn't be so overbearing.
Adding something new: All addons should realistically have upsides and downsides. If the addon changes the killer is such a way to make them stronger if that killer is weak, then why not remove the addon and make it a part of base kit if it doesn't have any drawbacks? The developers would benefit from going back to their previous game design choice of treating addons as something that merely sweetens the cream or shocks and wows both sides in an interesting deviation from the norm. I think Myers is the best example currently of the types of addons that every killer should have.
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@NurseMainBTW said:
I don't, but I stopped using 3 blinks from a while now. The only exception to the rule is if I just have too many or I want to use Jenner's last breath.I'm serious, I'd rather have the additional blinks change in different power-ups because they become obsolete at a certain point.
Respect for being honest. Have an Awesome.
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@Kind_Lemon said:
Reiterating what many have already said: Killers shouldn't depend on addons, and addons shouldn't be so overbearing.Adding something new: All addons should realistically have upsides and downsides. If the addon changes the killer is such a way to make them stronger if that killer is weak, then why not remove the addon and make it a part of base kit if it doesn't have any drawbacks? The developers would benefit from going back to their previous game design choice of treating addons as something that merely sweetens the cream or shocks and wows both sides in an interesting deviation from the norm. I think Myers is the best example currently of the types of addons that every killer should have.
Add-on variety is nice but if the base kit is lacking in a way that forces a certain add-on (trapper "bags" being the best example) then you only end up choosing 1 add-on to bring.
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Hag and Huntess are viable without addons, but on rest I agree.
On side note Im glad I can finally play Pig without addons after the recent change to base crouch speed.0 -
@Laakeri said:
Hag and Huntess are viable without addons, but on rest I agree.On side note Im glad I can finally play Pig without addons after the recent change to base crouch speed.
Huntress is viable but she is dependent on wind up time add-ons, her 110% speed can hurt her and a pig styled buff of slightly faster wind up time and the add-ons are made a little worse to compensate would be a good change.
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My biggest Killer add-on complaint is since most killers need their add-on's, why . . WHY . . . WHY should killers have negative affects on any of their add-on's?
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@TrAiNwReCk said:
My biggest Killer add-on complaint is since most killers need their add-on's, why . . WHY . . . WHY should killers have negative affects on any of their add-on's?+1
There are some exceptions I understand like Iridescent hatchets but for the most part the majority of killer addons don't need any of the negatives they currently have.
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I've seen killers take perkless Freddy to rank 1 and I've faced plenty of good ones as well so it does come down to skill at a certain point a swell.
But if you want something as base which some should have and other shouldn't have you should post a list of what each should have as base.
Then take that list and propose what addons would get nerfed or tweaked and how would offerings and perks be tweaked to avoid another cough Frank's Mixtape Legion issue.
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I really think killers should be competent with out any addons, running "vanilla" should be fine and not a handicap. Those which change powers by adding an effect or how the power works gives you so much more variety.
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I agree, personally I think it's rather silly that we have addons that mostly directly buff a killer's power instead of that already being the case for the killer. In my opinion most killers should have their addons overhauled to change how you play entirely and in return the base kit of the killers should be improved. It can be argued that you can keep a killer stocked up on addons you need to keep playing them but if you play multiple then it just starts become a little silly.
@powerbats said:
I've seen killers take perkless Freddy to rank 1 and I've faced plenty of good ones as well so it does come down to skill at a certain point a swell.But if you want something as base which some should have and other shouldn't have you should post a list of what each should have as base.
Then take that list and propose what addons would get nerfed or tweaked and how would offerings and perks be tweaked to avoid another cough Frank's Mixtape Legion issue.
I actually just made a post earlier today that goes over exactly that as I was rather curious as to what addons people feel make a killer "balanced" if you will and why.
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@vampire_toothy said:
I actually just made a post earlier today that goes over exactly that as I was rather curious as to what addons people feel make a killer "balanced" if you will and why.
Did you already link it in this thread?
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@powerbats said:
@vampire_toothy said:
I actually just made a post earlier today that goes over exactly that as I was rather curious as to what addons people feel make a killer "balanced" if you will and why.
Did you already link it in this thread?
I don't think I have, here it is : https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/47304/if-you-could-make-an-addon-baseline-for-each-killer-what-would-it-be#latest
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@TrAiNwReCk said:
My biggest Killer add-on complaint is since most killers need their add-on's, why . . WHY . . . WHY should killers have negative affects on any of their add-on's?Because being able to instantly kill a survivor without having to hit them, let alone hook, is VERY powerful and needs some drawbacks to make it at least somewhat reasonable to play against.
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@thesuicidefox said:
@TrAiNwReCk said:
My biggest Killer add-on complaint is since most killers need their add-on's, why . . WHY . . . WHY should killers have negative affects on any of their add-on's?Because being able to instantly kill a survivor without having to hit them, let alone hook, is VERY powerful and needs some drawbacks to make it at least somewhat reasonable to play against.
The fact killers have to use BP to get the add-on's to make them "VERY powerful" is a drawback in itself. And it's not like "VERY powerful" add-on's grow on every web . .
X is a very powerful add-on so we are going to make you less powerful in some way . . so you aren't very powerful.
Here's a thought, let's add a drawback to the two instant heal add-on's for survivors med kits.
- Until instant heal add-on is used survivor runs 10% slower
That way killers playing against someone with an instant heal item is somewhat reasonable to play against.
Makes Sense To Me
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I'd prefer each killer only having a handful of addons that actually change playstyle over a bunch of addons that are just slightly stronger versions of each other tbh. Then buff killers base kits that actually needs buffs.
Won't happen though because it's an excuse to have garbage on bloodweb for the fake economy they have to keep the grind up. I used to not care but honestly it became a slog only playing killer just to try to accumulate addons just to be stronger.
I wouldn't be against survivor getting the same treatment as well but honestly it's a completely different situation for them and doesn't really matter.
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I think addons would be better utilized as alterations to the base power instead of the majority being buffs. Similar to how doc addons change the form of the power; switching from cone to beam or ring. Making base kits good from the start but altering the method of interactions. Keeping half as alterations and the others as minor buffs to manipulate said alterations. This would make killer performance more stable and multiple matches vs the same killer diverse.0
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@TrAiNwReCk said:
The fact killers have to use BP to get the add-on's to make them "VERY powerful" is a drawback in itself. And it's not like "VERY powerful" add-on's grow on every web . .
X is a very powerful add-on so we are going to make you less powerful in some way . . so you aren't very powerful.
Here's a thought, let's add a drawback to the two instant heal add-on's for survivors med kits.
- Until instant heal add-on is used survivor runs 10% slower
That way killers playing against someone with an instant heal item is somewhat reasonable to play against.
Makes Sense To Me
Yes lets ignore the fact that the killers need to have something to spend bp on and lets just give them bp that they can't really use. If killers were super powerful without buying addons then bp gains would be in the 100's range per match.
There isn't a killer out there that'd be happy with a measly 1-4k bp for a 4k match since that'd be what it would have to come down to.
Also just stop with the insta heal nonsense it's a ONE TIME usage thing and it consumes the medkit, the killer addons are multi usage per match.
So using your logic then killers ultra rare and very rare addons should have a cd timer or some other negative effect to balance it out.
As far as playing against them why is it that so many killers can play against it and still get 2-4k and why is it that if they existed so much the survival rate isn't 100%?
I mean if all you complainers are to be believed than the survival rate should be at least 80-100% given how often you all seem to magically run into this.
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I agree at least in some cases. I like the trapper but i don't play him because carrying only one trap sucks. I consider he have enough handicap due the time wasted placing traps. Stitched bag should be in the base kit IMO.1
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In some cases the negative effects are justified because without that negative effect the addon would be OP. However there are some nonsense cases, Amanda's letter is the best example.TrAiNwReCk said:My biggest Killer add-on complaint is since most killers need their add-on's, why . . WHY . . . WHY should killers have negative affects on any of their add-on's?
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Huntress, Hag and Clown are not addon dependent at all.
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@IamFran said:
I agree at least in some cases. I like the trapper but i don't play him because carrying only one trap sucks. I consider he have enough handicap due the time wasted placing traps. Stitched bag should be in the base kit IMO.I agree, he wastes so much time. Honestly why not remove the "bag" add-ons, let him carry 5 traps and have him start with his traps.
Pig pulls her traps out of nowhere so it's not any less realistic.
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There's two Killers that don't rely on add-ons; Nurse and Hillbilly.
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I absolutely agree on the Trapper, he should be able to carry at least 2 traps even without add-ons, and he has way too few traps around the map, I feel like he needs some more
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I think more so what hes referring to is that addons that effect charge times and such should be more common or uncommon status and then most addons should be like the muffler addon for Billy's chainsaw, or the prayer beeds, or the addon that takes away the heartbeat when wraith comes uncloaked... addons should more so change more then just charge times and cooldowns and killers shouldnt be as addon dependent..The_Crusader said:The thing is though...if they made killers abilities "good" at base, then add ons would make it OP. So you need a weakish power at base and then scale it with add ons.
It is a strange design choice but I can kinda see what they're doing.0 -
@TrAiNwReCk said:
@thesuicidefox said:
@TrAiNwReCk said:
My biggest Killer add-on complaint is since most killers need their add-on's, why . . WHY . . . WHY should killers have negative affects on any of their add-on's?Because being able to instantly kill a survivor without having to hit them, let alone hook, is VERY powerful and needs some drawbacks to make it at least somewhat reasonable to play against.
The fact killers have to use BP to get the add-on's to make them "VERY powerful" is a drawback in itself. And it's not like "VERY powerful" add-on's grow on every web . .
X is a very powerful add-on so we are going to make you less powerful in some way . . so you aren't very powerful.
Here's a thought, let's add a drawback to the two instant heal add-on's for survivors med kits.
- Until instant heal add-on is used survivor runs 10% slower
That way killers playing against someone with an instant heal item is somewhat reasonable to play against.
Makes Sense To Me
;}
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@Bravo0413 said:
The_Crusader said:The thing is though...if they made killers abilities "good" at base, then add ons would make it OP. So you need a weakish power at base and then scale it with add ons.
It is a strange design choice but I can kinda see what they're doing.
I think more so what hes referring to is that addons that effect charge times and such should be more common or uncommon status and then most addons should be like the muffler addon for Billy's chainsaw, or the prayer beeds, or the addon that takes away the heartbeat when wraith comes uncloaked... addons should more so change more then just charge times and cooldowns and killers shouldnt be as addon dependent..
so first of all prayer beads are completely broken lol, secondly I'm saying add-ons should change playstyle rather than "fix" a weak power or obvious weakness in a power.
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@powerbats said:
@TrAiNwReCk said:
The fact killers have to use BP to get the add-on's to make them "VERY powerful" is a drawback in itself. And it's not like "VERY powerful" add-on's grow on every web . .
X is a very powerful add-on so we are going to make you less powerful in some way . . so you aren't very powerful.
Here's a thought, let's add a drawback to the two instant heal add-on's for survivors med kits.
- Until instant heal add-on is used survivor runs 10% slower
That way killers playing against someone with an instant heal item is somewhat reasonable to play against.
Makes Sense To Me
Yes lets ignore the fact that the killers need to have something to spend bp on and lets just give them bp that they can't really use. If killers were super powerful without buying addons then bp gains would be in the 100's range per match.
There isn't a killer out there that'd be happy with a measly 1-4k bp for a 4k match since that'd be what it would have to come down to.
Also just stop with the insta heal nonsense it's a ONE TIME usage thing and it consumes the medkit, the killer addons are multi usage per match.
So using your logic then killers ultra rare and very rare addons should have a cd timer or some other negative effect to balance it out.
As far as playing against them why is it that so many killers can play against it and still get 2-4k and why is it that if they existed so much the survival rate isn't 100%?
I mean if all you complainers are to be believed than the survival rate should be at least 80-100% given how often you all seem to magically run into this.
Slow your role dude. I was only applying 'thesuicidefox' rationale.
"Because being able to instantly kill a survivor without having to hit them, let alone hook, is VERY powerful and needs some drawbacks to make it at least somewhat reasonable to play against."
I don't care at all about instant heals. But if having negative affects on add-on's killers have to pay for, then survivors should have them too!
Meaningful ones, not a couple that make skill checks more likely and slightly smaller . .
You should read what replies are replying too before jumping too conclusions.
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