https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/472588/future-of-dead-by-daylight-forums
Basekit Anti-Tunnel Stopgap Improvements
Generally, there needs to be a proper basekit mechanic for fixing tunneling in the game, and while I could (and have!) talk about what I think that should look like, right now I want to talk about what can be done in the short term to lessen the strain of tunneling in a good chunk of real-match scenarios.
The short version is that I think the timers should be de-standardised for the basekit effects you get after being unhooked, but I'll give the specifics and my reasoning below.
- Basekit Endurance remains at 10 seconds
- Basekit Elusive increased to 30 seconds
- Basekit Haste increased to 30 seconds
- Optionally, basekit Haste increased to 15% from 10%
In general I like the idea of post-unhook Elusive as a stopgap, it encourages getting away from the hook and isn't very disruptive. That said, it doesn't last long enough to be nearly as useful as it could be.
Upgrading it to thirty seconds means it's not only definitely going to cover your escape from the hook area, but also that if you are chased, it could last long enough to break that chase and evade the killer without being downed again, which would actually punish their attempts at tunneling.
Obviously, that wouldn't be doable for everyone, but it'd least be potentially achievable in a way it isn't right now.
On top of that, Haste is in much the same boat where it's very difficult (if not impossible) to weaponise and it lasting longer would help during the chase instead of just to get to a resource.
Increasing the percentage would be a nice buff too, but that part isn't as necessary for the core idea.
The sum total of these changes would shift off-hook protections away from the dreaded aggressive bodyblocking and towards actually escaping the killer, much closer to what we'd want out of anti-tunnel. It wouldn't be enough on its own, but it'd be much more potent than it is now.
Comments
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Actually this would be great… which means it won't be implemented.
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This isn't really "Short term", that's good enough to be final state of basekit anti tunneling. 10% haste for 30s is a lot, it would definitely make tunneling still possible, but much less tempting to do.
Focusing more on Haste was always a more interesting aspect of it, the survivor is given a tool to last at least 30 seconds, so going after them is much riskier. Honestly I wish this version was tested during 9.4.0 so maybe it could be seen proper how that would operate in game.
At the same time, 30s of haste is way too much in late game, at 1 gen remaining for example. It's not just strong at looping this is strong at map traversal. I would probably add that the duration of Haste and Elusive are decreased by 4s with every repaired gen, so at 1 gen remaining they are just 14s, and 10s in end game.
This would probably require a basekit buff for killer side too but that's another topic, unclear what kind of buff would be needed
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I'm gonna say it. We need to scrap the idea of basekit buffs for killers entirely. There is no universe where nurse or blight should be getting anything resembling a buff even if tunneling was removed entirely somehow.
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If we need to scrap basekit buffs for killer side, we need to scrap basekit buffs for survivor side as well. Hypocrisy has no place in balance discussions
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I don't see the need for it scaling down as gens are done, personally. If the concern is map traversal, 10% Haste is still lower than default killer walking speed, and default killer walking speed is notoriously not actually that good for getting across the map speedily.
Even with the 5% buff I'd like to see, that doesn't change.It wouldn't be nothing in that capacity, but it wouldn't be particularly noticeable either. A nice little bonus to get to a gen slightly quicker, but nothing to write home about.
As to the last part, a proper removal of tunneling later on down the line should probably come with something for the killer side at the same time just for fairness and optics, but this is minor enough in general I don't think it needs any killer buffs. Certainly nothing to the shared basekit, the stronger killers especially don't need buffs right now.
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It definitely needs to tone down the longer the game goes. 30s is absurdly high for a basekit thing, while already removing tunneling in it's entirety because even with 14-18s haste duration it's just no longer an option, the duration is enough to reach any loop even far away one, and it allows for thoughtless shift W away from gens, something that would remove any reason for tunneling entirely. With 30s, you might as well teleport to the other side of the map right away.
The still lower 4.4 is lower by 0.2, you need an Everest of time to catch up with survivor who has smaller hitbox than you and can loop something like tower on Macmillan to make catching up impossible for a non-mobile killer. Needless to say, 110% killers exist too. It's not the world in terms of map traversal ofc, but it is a bonus to an already very powerful effect as is.
Calling removal of tunneling in it's entirety something that is "Minor in terms of counter buffs" is just lying. You may have an opinion on it, but don't base it on opinion alone. This suggestion already severely nerfs hard tunneling, and makes occasional/semi/late tunneling a high risk no reward strategy. Effectively, it kills it.
Your argument basing on "Stronger killers don't need it" makes your point invalid, since weaker killers exist too, and you don't have to buff all of the killers in the same way.
Lastly, I want to ask a question. Do you guys realize, what is going to happen if changes like these make it to the game without anything to compensate for the other side? Tell me the answer in the reply I am genuinely curious
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This definitely doesn't remove tunneling in its entirety. It gives more confident survivors an edge, and it's fair to say less mobile killers will struggle to tunnel someone out more, but the fact of the matter is any of the top third of the killer roster can hard commit to a tunnel out against most players even with no scratch marks and longer Haste.
Even if it did, though, that wouldn't really explain why it'd need to scale down the more gens are done, since that'd just make tunneling easier again.
As for what happens if these changes make it to the game with nothing to compensate… tunneling gets harder. There's nothing else these changes would affect in any way that's worth talking about, save for maybe some hyper specific edge cases that'd occur once in a blue moon.
Let me flip the question — what exactly do you think would happen?0 -
Okay, let's go again. Why this would remove tunneling in it's entirety (Slight exaggeration of course since hyper mobility killers exist). Reason is simple, from a macro standpoint, a 4.4 Ms survivor is almost impossible to catch for any killer which is not top tier. 4.4 killers take a long time to catch up with 4.0 survivors, and that's a 0.4 difference in speed. With 0.2 difference in speed, the time to catch up doubles. This makes shift W extremely strong, and makes looping extremely stronger too. For shift W, obvious, you will be able to cross whole, so can run away from gen area and remain there. Following would be a massive time investment.
Looping with 0.2 difference in speed, the survivor is more likely to catch up to killer than killer to catch up with survivor. Reason being hitbox difference creating friction. 30s of complete invulnerability against many killers does not sound balanced at all at 5 gens, much less at 1-2 gen. I do not understand why you treat early game as entirely identical thing as late game, but that's a bad view of it. Early game doesn't focus on 1 part of the map, late game does. I don't think I need to explain why it's completely different.
Oh, the answer of yours is enlightening, truly. You don't understand what will happen at all. What will happen though is this. Tunneling is omega nerfed, almost removed. Because of that, the next most effective strategy takes it's place. I believe atm it would be hard slugging. The amount of killers who work well with slugging increases. Similarly, the amount of top tier killers increases further, because weaker killers don't all work well with slugging strategy and with some having only later tunneling as means to recover lost pressure gone will just not be able to deal with proper survivors. The meta will shift alright, are you sure you want it though? Slugging Judgements Blights or Nurses don't exactly sound fun to me
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You're assuming all of the killers in that example up top are just following survivors in a straight line to land an M1, though. Even the weaker M1-focused killers have powers that would dramatically change that dynamic.
Huntress is 4.4, to pick an example, and it doesn't matter how long it takes her to catch up. To pick a weaker killer as an example, Clown's 4.6, but has a power for changing relative speeds. Most killers follow this pattern and would obviously be using their powers to tunnel, meaning they retain the upper hand, just not by as much with a faster survivor and weaker tracking.
As for the last part, if slugging becomes a big problem, that just means slugging needs addressing next. Live service games generally do play whack-a-mole with whatever shortcut players are using to get unbalanced rewards, that's not really all that surprising.
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The weaker killers follow in a straight line, what are you talking about it. Some killers like Dredge can teleport sure but that doesn't automatically make it a benefit against 10% haste. Even clown chases in a straight line, he just does it faster.
Huntress will take more time too. It varies greatly but a buff like that is still a buff. With the amount of random debris currently spawning on maps or non throw able loops like rocks on Macmillan or asylum, yeah gl catching same speed survivor.
Omg, do you still not understand? What will happen if slugging is addressed the same way next, without any changes to killer side?
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The killers who truly don't have a power to use to tunnel are a minority, most have something for addressing that distance, it's a pretty integral part of killer design.
In the cases that they don't, that's still good, we're talking about tunneling.As for the last part, then the average quality of matches will tick upwards like before, and whatever killers move to next will be tackled.
That's not me failing to understand, that's my position. Tackling the current problem is good even understanding there'll be future problems later. That's how live game balance works, it doesn't get to a point where problems stop popping up.
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You are downplaying 10% haste way too much. A 10% haste during chase is an auto chase winner. If chase isn't as good as pre running, then pre running is also buffed to extremes by this haste. Effect like this effectively renders tunneling worthless, as obligatory 30s to spend chasing at minimum, is losing a game in a 1v4.
And, I'm sorry, it being your position changes that you misunderstand the consequences of such changes how exactly? In order to tackle the problem, you need to understand the problem, but your suggestion tells me that you clearly misunderstand the problem as well, as your view on tunneling is more of a 1v1 rather than 1v4, which is objectively incorrect.
If you think that nerfing tunneling -> nerfing slugging -> nerfing whatever comes next, all while not giving anything in return is a healthy way to go about the game, you are naive. This will simply kill the game, that's it.
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… Have you never played survivor once? Do you think that like each survivor has some kind of unique power or something? Like, my man you aren't just a clown you are the whole circus.
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I agree that you need to understand the problem in order to tackle it, but that is exactly what I'm doing.
What is the problem with tunneling? Targeting a survivor immediately after unhook provides a much easier chase, without requiring anything from the killer, and without that much survivors can do about it barring the use of specific perks.
Why do killers tunnel so much? See above.
With that in mind, what should be done? Tunneling should be harder in the short term while a solution is built that removes it from the game on a more fundamental level than just making it more difficult.
There is one thing I want to give a quick correction on, though. I am not, for the record, saying nothing should ever be done for killer as a role. Over the course of multiple patches over multiple years that all play whack-a-mole with whatever problems exist, there will of course continue to be buffs and reworks and improvements for the killer role, as there has been for a long time.
You just don't need to give a specific, targeted, role-wide buff to compensate for making tunneling harder. That outcome is just desirable in and of itself, and moves the game closer towards being balanced, you don't put a counterweight on a counterweight.-1 -
Mixed player, though I no longer want to discuss anything with you. Jumping immediately to insults tells me everything
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Your explanation is correct, however, that is an explanation from 1v1 point only. Yes, it is easier chase, but no, survivors have tools in the form of perks and loops, and no, it requires killer to possibly risk losing the game in order to dedicate to tunnel. It is not as much of a risk at 5 gens, which is why agree that specific tunneling needs changes.
The suggestion is flawed in exactly that, it's a GIANT counterweight, it affects the game itself and how it's played. A massive change in gameplay absolutely cannot come without anything in return. Your view of tunneling as 1v1 only hurts validity of this suggestion
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What makes this a giant counterweight that affects the entire game?
Specifically, what I don't understand about your position is how this could affect a killer that isn't tunneling. If it's that big of a counterweight, what exactly is the effect here?
From my perspective, it only affects tunneling killers, which is the goal. Tunneling is bad for the game and very noticeably unbalanced, so giving survivors an edge to help offset that is appropriate. How does this suggestion outstrip that?
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I elaborated above why this change is a massive nerf to tunneling. Complete removal of value from one of killer's strategies, especially a meta one, will naturally affect the game in a big manner.
I never said anything about it affecting a killer who doesn't tunnel. All my arguments are for the scenario in which killer tunnels. And not tunnels as in goes for the unhook from the get go. Tunnels as in goes for the unhooked survivor at any point in the game, even just once per whole game.
You suggestion would remove that, completely. Going for unhooked survivor in order to eliminate them at 1-2 gens remaining so that pressure is recovered, would no longer be a high risk high reward, but a high risk no reward. I fail to see a single reason why survivor side is justified in receiving a buff so large at all stages of the game it can deny killer doing their objective. It is especially hard to see since you have yet to provide one for it from a 1v4 view point.
I just don't understand why you think 10% Haste for 30 whole seconds is an edge. It's not an edge, it's a massive upgrade. It's a colossal distance, it's safety in loops, it's safety in moving to another loop. Chasing a survivor with 10% haste is not an option, unless you play exactly the top tiers.
I also don't understand why you consider tunneling bad and unbalanced. Hard tunneling, sure, I can see that. Regular one, at later point in the game? Can't see why. It's jarring to me also because, despite how bad tunneling might be, it is still the objective of killer. Why do you think a killer needs to be punished severely for doing their objective? Would you consider a healthy change something like "Generators are blocked for 30s whenever one is repaired. This ends prematurely if killer hooks someone or they are downed for 10s"? This is similar level of intruding into doing the objective
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So, to be clear, the mechanism of tunneling itself is always unbalanced until the gates are done. It changes then, and only then, because the tunneled survivor only needs to make it a straight shot to the exit gate and has at least one teammate to try and bodyblock for them. The time management element that's crucial to the rest of the game isn't there, so all resources can be 'cashed out' so to speak with no downsides.
Everywhere else, the killer is just getting an easier chase for free. There's not really any nuance to it, targeting someone that just came off the hook is always a huge advantage that the survivor has to either be significantly better than you or be running specific perks to even attempt to overcome.
This advantage should be removed because it is, itself, an imbalance. Once it's gone, that moves the game closer towards being balanced. Trying to buff killer to "compensate" for making the game more balanced would only move it back towards imbalance.(There should be killer buffs in any patch that does this, but that's for optics and the 'feel' of the situation, not for balance reasons.)
Looking at generators, no, of course that example change wouldn't be balanced. What would be balanced, though, is reworking toolboxes to no longer give repair speed, because that's an actual problem with survivors and their objective. Just because it involves the objective doesn't mean it's balanced, if either side had a button that auto-completed their objectives for them it'd obviously be unbalanced.
There's not really much to say about the 1v4 here. Tunneling ignores the 1v4 and should be a risk because of that, but it isn't, because the 1v1 is so unbalanced it doesn't matter. I was avoiding talking about it because it's just not a particularly nuanced or deep element of the conversation.
As for the 10% Haste, enough killers exist that have powers to answer it that it isn't quite that good, but it wouldn't matter if it were. If you couldn't chase any survivor immediately after unhook, and that was the only effect the system had on the game, that'd be a success.
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Okay sorry but you simply deny the nuance of 1v4. This doesn't help your case. Saying tunneling ignores 1v4 is objectively incorrect, as 3 other survivors very much exist while tunneling happens. It is exactly why tunneling at later stage is a high risk. While you are busy tunneling, other 3 survivors do the generators. If 4th survivor runs away from said gens as far as possible, they not only waste the time with chase, they also waste time with map traversal back to said gens after hooking.
You yourself literally say "Time management that is crucial to the rest of the game is gone in endgame". Time management, is exactly the essence of 1v4 in tunneling scenario. Tunneled survivor wastes as much time as they can -> killer gets punished for tunneling. The more time wasted, the bigger the punishment.
The fact that you avoided talking about it, and you even discard it's importance, confirms to me that your view on tunneling is a pure 1v1. That's just not how simple of an issue tunneling is. And that's not how this game is, it is not a 1v1, it's a 1v4.
I will give it to you though, from a 1v1 pov tunneling is not really that balanced. It's half picture, but it's not balanced half of the picture
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…Yes, that's what I'm saying. Three survivors exist that are doing generators, but that doesn't matter, because you're downing that other survivor quick enough you can get the next hook before any substantial generator repair is done.
The survivor's job in chase is to waste time. So, when a chase starts that is heavily tilted in the killer's favour, with no tradeoff or trick to beating it and in a way the killer can always just choose to do, that means they don't get to waste that much time and the killer gets far more value.
That's the entire issue with tunneling. If the survivor being tunneled could reliably waste time without needing to be significantly more skilled than the killer to do it, the problem would disappear. That's why giving them the edge of longer Haste and Elusive is a good idea, it at least lessens that problem.This is why I was avoiding talking about it, this is just repeating what tunneling is and why it's a problem.
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"Three survivors exist that are doing generators, but that doesn't matter". Okay, again, sorry, you are losing all validity of your argument. Straight up reducing 3 other players in 1v4 to nothing is denial. You are however, for some reason also ignoring that killer could very well be casual too, which renders the need to be significantly better obsolete.
In fact, your whole argument around why it's unbalanced for that 1 survivor sounds like survivor is just incapacitated and can't do anything but stand still and accept their fate. Like the whole map with it's loops stops existing. Sure, instead of 1 chance at making a mistake you have 0 (assuming it's not a one shot killer or you don't run perks that help you with that), doesn't mean that suddenly loops are less loopable, especially with current pallet density helping with locating a pallet.
Additionally, even wounded, a survivor getting downed quickly. Is it a tunneling being too strong, or a survivor playing poorly/getting unlucky/getting pinged/running into dead zone/greeding pallet?
Edit: Getting rather late for me, if you wish to continue this discussion, we can tomorrow. Though, I feel like we are mostly going in circles, so I am not sure it would be really productive to continue
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Calls me a hypocrite first then gets mad when I correctly identify you as a joke.
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