Thoughts on NOED "rewarding bad play"
I've been seeing it repeated a lot that noed "rewards bad play" because the killer didn't do their objective of stopping generators.
Something to consider is that a killer doesn't have the objective of stopping generator progression. If all gens are at 0% completion for an hour, the game will be no closer to it's conclusion because doing such does not progress the killer's win condition, it only delays the survivor's.
The killer only fails at their objective when a survivor leaves the trial and no sooner. Any point before that and they have not failed.
To point, the game is not over when 5 gens are done and the thought that it is and NOED is taking away "earned" escapes is silly.
TL;DR The trial is not completed when the last gen is done, the killer did not fail when the last gen is done, and the killer should not be stigmatized for wanting to be effective in the endgame.
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I just think it should give a different effect than a 1 hit down.
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“rewards bad play” is just something salty survivors like to spout after they got killed by NOED.
They’re right, it’s rewarding bad play, but it’s their own bad play, not the killers. It’s not hard to do totems.
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I had thoughts of it acting similar to blood warde.
If the killer is inside an exit gate that gate becomes blocked, survivors inside that gate gain exposed, and the killer can Mori dying survivors after all gens are done.
It lets killers win endgame chases, which is the point of noed, and completely removes the "teabagging at the gate" survivor thing.
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Then DS was also not rewarding bad play. Survivors messed up and go down, but its not actually a mistake, since the objective is to escape and not to not go down. So it doesn't reward failure actually, since going down is not a mistake.
this logic sounds stupid
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>Bad play
>Survivors can have the gens finished in under 4 minutes
Pick one.
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One could also argue it punishes bad play on the survivors part because they didn't break totems. Too many survivors think they've won once the last gen is popped and death at that point is unfair.
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I understand why some killers use it, I don't use it but I am aware that some do. The genrush problem is way to severe ruin doesn't do anything because at least for me as a survivor I can hit great skill checks 90% of the time and then there is skill check rng where you can almost never get a skill check on a gen sometimes. If the survivors actually are trying to escape like hardcore they can get gens done mega quick plus then you add toolboxes prove thyself ect. NOED is sometimes a way to stop the genrush because they either do the totems or risk getting insta-downed at endgame once the genrush issue gets addressed then we can talk about a NOED change/ rework.
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I'm getting sick of the subject honestly, and i'll just accept whatever it becomes or stays like this.
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You may want to sit this one out, Weedrick
The survivor goal is to escape, which getting hooked is indeed a failure state of. DS removes that failure state at no cost and provided a do-over.
A generator being completed, even all 5 being completed, is not a failure state for the killer. If all 5 gens are done the game could still go on for another hour, as some killers are painfully aware.
If a survivor was in a position to use DS their game was going to be over within the next two minutes, max, unless they got saved.
Appels are not the same as oranges and a perk that prevented immediate failure of the main objective is not the same as a perk that enhances the end game
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Sounds similar to old DS.
Both perks to prevent the other side from winning in case the other side wants to win.
Equip one perk to turn a losing game around.
Thats why Adrenaline is okay, but old DS not. Adrenaline rewards survivors for winning. Old DS and NOED reward for losing. And way too much btw
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See above. 5 gens being completed is not losing, or the trial would be concluded when the last gen popped.
Conversely, the trial can and will conclude for a survivor brought to a hook.
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Do totems. Do all the totems.
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So a killer losing 5/6 main objectives is NOT a failure??
But a survivor who loses 1/3 of his objectives (hookstates) is a failure??
If the gens are powered you basically lost. Thats failing. Powering all generators is more failing on the killer side (5/6) than going down once (1/3).
Noed activates when the game is almost lost for the killer. DS activates when you go down , the game is still not over for you or your teammates. Who failed harder?
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I believe the logic has less to do with the generators, and more to do with killing the survivors. People are saying that it rewards bad play, because the killer was not able to kill the survivors before they finished repairing all of the generators. Evidence of bad gameplay.
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I died to the killer during the part of the game that is 99% weighted towards survivors....NERF NOED!
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The killer does not lose 1/6 objectives for a generator being completed, one loses 1/4 objectives for a survivor escaping, and nothing less.
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And how do you prevent them from escaping? By protecting your main objective, the generators.
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Ok. Let's go really slowly and break this down for you, weedy.
Killing a survivor is the killer victory condition.
Escaping is the killer failure state.
Things that impair the failure state do not directly contribute to the winning condition.
If, say, two players are playing chess and both argue that victory is achieved by avoiding their failure state, being checkmated, and they *only* play to avoid being checkmated and do not attempt to checkmate their opponent, then the game will draw. As does dead by daylight when the game is "held hostage" by survivors refusing to leave for extended periods of time after completing all gens.
Downing a survivor faster enhances the killers win condition.
Getting DS off nullified a failure state.
Doing gens is not how a survivor wins the game. Even if all 5 gens are done, a survivor will still never win the game if they do not leave a gate.
Stopping gens is not how a killer wins the game. Even if all 5 gens are done, a killer still has not lost the game until all survivors leave an exit gate.
To argue otherwise is quite silly. 😗
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I would call the prevention of generator repair a side/optional objective, but yes.
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Dont have much time rn
We're discussing semantics tbh. Both of us are partially right, they're both main objectives. If you kill 4, you win. But, if the survivors cant open the exitgates, killer wins too.
Its me winning vs you losing
but losing all generators and only having the exitgates standing between them living and escaping IS failing a critical part of YOUR personal main objective. If the gates are open, you can say the game is not over, but i can tell you it is.
Come on, use some common sense. If you lose all generators you lost a critical part of your main objective.
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Ok. A little bit slower, then. We'll continue to using the chess example.
In chess you need pieces to win, just like a survivor needs to complete gens to win. If a player has no pieces in chess except their King, then they can never win against their opponent. But that does not mean they have lost. Infact, it doesn't even mean their opponent has won, the game can still be forced to draw.
Something *very important* to understand is someone not being able to win is not the same as them losing. And, indeed, the survivors never being able to win does not even make the killer win *faster.*
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It doesn't necessarily reward bad play, but it definitely boosts bad players.
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NOED punishes the survivor for not doing their 2nd objectives.
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A better argument.
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The problem is, we go back to the same core topics all discussions lead to; "What is defined as winning to you?". People who say that getting generators powered up means they have already won are also the people who say NOED rewards bad Killers.
I consider endgame to be just like any part of the trial. With that in mind, NOED works just like any other perk, it boosts some property of a certain part of a match. It just happens to be endgame, where some people already give up by then and is disregarded completely.
There are some Killers that have endgame potential. The best example being Pig. Her ability basically says "Its not over until you escape or die". If endgame wasnt regarded as a valid section of the game, this Killer, endgame perks or even the hatch wouldnt be a thing. So, why is it wrong to build yourself up to another part of the trial instead of buffing for (for instance) early or mid game? People dont complain about Corrupt Intervention, they dont complain about STBFL, they dont complain about Spirit Fury.
Basically, NOED. Its not a crutch, its not a second chance, its not even OP. Its just another perk that focuses on endgame, just like Blood Warden, Remember Me and Rancor do (this last one being less so).
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Powering generators (even just two) provides you with an opportunity to escape.
It does not mean you get a guaranteed escape.
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Why slower? Gamesense goes long beyond that. If you lose 5 generators, survivors have completed 5/6 main objectives to escape.
So even though the game is not lost, it is lost to 84%. A perk that activates after losing 84% of the game, is a perk that rewards losing.
the argument "I havent fully lost, just 84%" is more precise. Hope you get it now
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@Free_Hugs "The survivor goal is to escape, which getting hooked is indeed a failure state of. DS removes that failure state at no cost and provided a do-over."
By this logic, letting survivors do gens is a "failure state" as well since they are now a step closer to escaping. If ALL the gens get done survivors are literally on the cusp of escaping. That's like being downed when on your last hook. You can still pull out a W but it is VERY unlikely at this point. You basically lost.
Also by this logic, NOED provides a "do-over" since it gives the killer a one shot AND speed boost that can be used to quickly catch survivors.
Like do you not see your own hypocrisy here?
Post edited by thesuicidefox on4 -
@Weederick "And how do you prevent them from escaping? By protecting your main objective, the generators."
You should refer to this:
">Bad play
>Survivors can have the gens finished in under 4 minutes
Pick one."
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The quotes make more sense, when you pick both ;)
Bad killerplay -> Survivors finish gens in under 4 minutes
ftfy :)
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Noed is a reward for killers only if survivors fail to complete their secondary objective. Killer has no say in the matter until gen 5 pops and they can then see/defend the totem. The reward itself is seeing the perk activate, the killer still needs to chase and down the survivors.
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There's a tryhard push to get it changed. They aren't going to change it. It's a good, strong perk.
It isn't called "Survive by Daylight". The killer is more entitled to kill than you are to survive. Stop.
The perk is fine as it is. There's nothing wrong with it. If you tryhard trash SWF are so good... cleanse 5 totems man. It's pretty simple. Lazy...
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Can we please drop all those Noed debates?
Even the Devs realized that Noed is balanced.
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Its also possible to 4k in under a minute.
Take responsibility for your games man. Its up to you what happens
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@Weederick "Its also possible to 4k in under a minute."
And Nurse can 4K without blinking, under certain circumstance.
How is that an argument ?
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lmao
Some of you are insane. NOED is fine the way it is. You talk as if it is active from the very beginning or something lol.
Get a clue.
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The same as yours. Its possible to win quick.
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Then i think you shouldn't talk too much about balance if you don't see any problems with those statements.
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Maybe you shouldnt talk about balance, if you only speak in two liners + pick one and assume things.
I said that playing bad as killer and survivors finishing gens quickly is correlated more than it is separated. While you assume that i think genrush is okay. I think your original statement was bad.
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Noed does generally boost bad killers. Just as ds boosted bad survivors.
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I agree.. except one of those perks got buffed, the other reworked(nerfed).
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"Noed does generally boost bad killers. Just as ds boosted bad survivors."
This statement is just plain WRONG.
The killers objective is to KILL. Not protect gens.
Survivor shoudl AVOID the killer, not "enjoy the chase".
If Noed is triggering at all is entirely up to the survivor.
If DS -either old or new- is triggering is … not the killers decision.
The new DS only encourages bad plays and unsafe unhooks.
While Noed only punishs lazy survivor.
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Noed is the counterpart to adrenaline. Deal with it and if you don't like it and you are actually a competent survivor take down totems.
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Keep in mind that the killer plays with only 3 perks the entire game until gates are but still can never activate if surviors aren't lazy and do totems. It has a counter and playing with 3 perks isn't an easy thing. It does not boost bad killers and endgame is already 1000% survivor sided the killer basically has nothing in game to help them in endgame.
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Ok. Lets look at this from the perspective of another game. Card games, they're fairly ubiquitous and hard to misunderstand. Now.
To win in a cardgame, you generally need to get your opponent's life to total to 0. When your opponent's life total reaches 0, they lose and you win. Assuming they start at 30, if you were to deal 29 damage to your opponent's life total, they would have "96.6% lost" by your logic. Is this correct?
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All gens being completed is not a failure state because the killer does not, infact, fail if that comes to pass. Infact, the killer loses *nothing* if all gens are completed. The killer is not negativly impeded in anyway by all generators being completed, in comparison to a survivor being carried to a hook in which case they can both no longer complete their main objective and will immediately be removed from the game without intervention.
Now, if NOED were to read "When a survivor would leave the trial, instead teleport them to a hook" then it would indeed be a failure state do-over, similar to DS.
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Noed is just a free win for people being too stupid doing their objective properly and a punishment for survs who just did their only objective in a proper way. But killer Mains wouldnt ever admit that cause they only care for ez wins.
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Very well.
Why do you consider your objective to be doing generators "I did all 5 gens, we're done now"
Instead of escaping?
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I should point out I don't have a problem with noed. I find it annoying. But it is what it is. I don't use it because I feel like if it's come into play I've not done my job.
@Wolf74 Noed Gives the killer extra kills they wouldn't have gotten. So it does boost bad killers. That's not to say good killers don't also use it. But bad killers are artificially boosted by it.
@thirdsixteenth They are playing at a deficit. But how often have you encountered a really good killer using noed vs. a bad one?
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