Will The Uninformed (Mend Exploit) Be Banned?
I'm glad they're officially calling the mend an exploit and plan to punish for it, but another thread (admittedly got off rails a tad) brought up a point. What about those that dont visit forums and dont see news like this.
The ones that GENUINELLY dont know it's an exploit, as they may have not heard or been told about it, and run it out of sheer addon synergy may be inadvertently punished.
We assume everyone knows it's an exploit by now, because the forums are debating it for days now, but the ones that dont visit forums, or reddit, and play solo or with a few friends that may not do forums either, may have no idea whatsoever.
I'm not saying dont punish this, it absolutely needs to be dealt with, but is there a system/measure in place to try and differentiate between the intentional and the unknown?
I personally would rather have to deal with this exploit done to me, until it is fixed, than have the chance of innocent players being banned for it.
Thoughts?
Comments
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Just started the game, didn't get a warning.
So yeah, that'll be fun for those running them for the regular reasons.
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I'm more interested in if they will be banned, or Asylum Exploit "banned."
Of course, these are a detriment to Survivors, so probably the former.
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Im not sure why they don't just disable one of the blades until it's fixed
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@Tzeentchling9 Asylum Exploit ban? I dont think I'm familiar with what you're referring to.
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They banned the people abusing a bug related to that map.
Then days later, they got unbanned.
The bug required players to do specific moves, so none (or REALLY few) could accidentally do this bug.
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Honestly BHVR should just hotfix disable the addons until the bug is fixed. It seems like this is one of those situations where someone innocent could potentially be caught in the crossfire of those abusing it. You could easily argue how could someone not know but it's easier to not take a risk and know that there's no risking innocent players.
My bias is also no one should really be banned for this. Addons should have been disabled the moment this exploit was discovered and this should have been looked into.
Seriously though we have plenty of maps, addons, items and offerings for both killers and survivors. If any gamebreaking exploits are found they should be immediately disabled. We know the devs can do this and it would be less of a headache for everyone if they did.
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A long time ago, there was an exploit that allowed Survivors to move up some collision on the outside of the Asylum on Disturbed Ward. Killers couldn't do that or only with great difficulty, this created 100% secure spots for the Survivors.
People were perma-banned for abusing it, but since that was just before we got soft bans, they were unbanned and instead received strike 1.
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They need to add this to the 'News' section in game to get maximum visibility, otherwise, like others have mentioned, some people might be using the exploit without even knowing it is an exploit.
Monto made a video a while back (before the exploit), using these add-ons in his Slow the game down Legion perk build vid, and I am sure a lot of people watch Monto and like to copy his perk builds.
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This. So even under the direct threat of a permanent ban. Scum still did it, there was absolutely no way to not do it on purpose, and got banned. Then Bhrv turned around and said, "Eh, not really."
It's a dangerous precedent.
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'we will be banning players who abuse the following...'
Seems like it.
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@Tzeentchling9 @DocOctober ahhh so they actually banned people, but it was in reality a slap on the wrist... damn. So the actual abusers didnt even get punished...wow.
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Nah the only thing they ban for is when you say really mean things to your opponent, even though half the players in this game deserve talking to like that.
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Tell players about the exploit. If someone says they didn't know, report them anyway. If it was a legitimate instance of them using those add-ons, they probably won't do it after someone tells them. A single report most likely won't get you banned. If you do use it many times and get a lot of reports then you can't honestly say "I don't know".
Ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law.
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But how often do survivors talk ######### about killers 'wall hacking' and threatening reports etc when they use BBQ & Chilli or Scratched mirror, I think a killer will just chalk it up to a salty survivor if they tell them they are using an exploit.
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This was my thought as well. The majority of the player base doesn't use the forums, so how will they know any better?
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Most players on ps4 have messages blocked. Particularly killers. So trying to message them "hey, that combo is bannable" may never reach them, let alone would they believe it.
And ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law?
Nobody knows it is breaking the law unless they're told it's a law. It's like saying heres this handgun, you can have it. They shoot it at a target, as handguns usually are. Oh but by the way we consider it illegal to shoot the gun we gave you, sorry we didnt say that at first, guess you gotta figure it out! Wait nobody told you? Oh well you didnt JUST KNOW WHAT WE MEANT so you're punished.
If anything this instance would be close to entrapment. Banning people for using something given to them as intended, with results they didnt know would happen or be bannable.
Problem with the law analogy is people have a general understanding of the laws and what is allowed, right and wrong. Just as players do. But when something is decided in a post that not everyone will see, to be a bannable offense but those people were not told of the change, how is it on them to know? How is it their fault that they dont look at the forums every day, JUST to look up new bannable offenses and exploits to avoid.
They were given the blades, they use the blades. How are they supposed to know they're breaking some rule if you've given them the tools to do just that, and for all they know are supposed to go together with no cumulative mend increase.
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In the scenario that an innocent player somehow performs the exploit how would they know? They just used in game items that were presented to them without a warning. Considering Legion is such a poorly designed killer in the first place it would seem like any prolonged healing would be intentional. You'd have to be very observant to notice a survivor was constantly mending if you didn't know of the exploit.
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you would have to hit them 2 or 3 separate times, and then WATCH them mend for the entirety. It's very reasonable to assume Legions don't watch the mend unless they know about it. Most either let you bleed out, or hit you mid mend.
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Then I hope they like being banned.
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This is exactly what I had in mind. Unless a Legion just watched someone mend for entire duration after extending the mend timer for that long they would never know. They may just run up on someone after finding them mending and not think twice about it and then down them.
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They either shouldn’t ban for the Blade exploit or just temporarily remove them until they’re fixed. It’s not fair for someone who didn’t know or forgot about it to get banned. Besides, nobody will believe messages saying that the add-ons are bannable. They’ll just think it’s salt.
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This is pretty accurate would be nice to be included in the INGAME news section, I've said before in other threads when I first played legion I wanted the mend timer to mean something and thought by playing both blades it might increase chances of survs not mending in time and collapsing as I was still coming to terms with the killer's addons. If there's not even a warning system in game then how will they know?
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I would be willing to bet nobody gets banned and the devs are just trying to discourage the use until they fix it.
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Wanna test that? lol since you have your doubts, then go ahead and use the add-on and see what happens, All 4 survivors will report you and then when you make a thread saying how you got banned and didn't know you would get banned, i'm going to take a snippet of your comment, and will reply with that.
Have fun
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Yeah my concern too.
Even if they put an ingame warning, players may not read it. Tbh, I don't read news section at all.
In other games, when something like this happens, devs temporarily disable whatever it is. I clearly remember that we were not able to use Draven in LoL for a specific period of time because there was a problem with him which forced the devs to disable him.
There are exploiters I am sure but I have seen other people stacking those addons before the exploit for additional longer mending time. So some of its uses are completely unintentional and players just wanted to prolong the mending time.
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@Delfador But you have to realize that it is in a big red box, no one would be able to miss that, even i saw it lol.
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@Delfador yeah.... Good 'ole Dunkmaster Draven.... ugh....
I mean they've disabled map offerings when they were an issue (Ormund) and I feel like i've seen a "we've Identified an issue with x perk/item/addon and it will be disabled until resolved" for exploits before, but I cant remember specifically.
It just seems like a much easier solution would be Disable the blade that causes the exploit and fix it. I mean people will be upset they can't run mend time builds, but it's better than being upset about a wrongly placed ban.
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@Detective_Jonathan On the Forums. But we're talking about in game. The people who DON'T come to the forums or Reddit. They will absolutely miss it because they dont come here to begin with.
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Oh oh oh oh ok. Makes sense, but yea know they should still be banned, Yea i know it's a bit harsh, but they should be aware of the things going on in the community.
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@Detective_Jonathan So people who do not like forums or Reddit should come here because they play the game? That is very elitist. A casual gamer may not even know there is a forum for the game. If they do not put an in game notice about the bans and start banning people, it will look very bad for the company. Simple as that.
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Seems more like BHVR should just disable the addons until its fixed instead of luring in exploiters for bans at the expense of players who are playing survivor or killers who don't even know it's an exploit.
Players shouldn't have an obligation to do anything other than play the game in their free time. Especially when BHVR hasn't even notified players in-game yet.
However in the instance of the multiple killer exploit I see no reason currently to believe that this could be performed by accident. That is where BHVR should be drawing the line though.
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No, I disagree. They shouldn't be banned just because they didn't check the forums. I didn't even know this forum existed until a few months ago. They need to hotfix the addons or disable them for now.
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@Dustin @IronKnight55 and @lasombra1979
To be honest, i could care less about whether they didn't know or anything, they can tell that to the people they did it to in the post-game chat or whatever, either way. It is bannable, and there will be no disabling of the add-on, sorry not sorry.
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Don't forget there's people who instead go to Reddit or the Steam forums and not here or other gaming sites and will have seen it. Before the exploit I rarely if ever saw people doing it, once it became know 50% of my Legion games have been people running it.
In every case the person just sat there and watched you and waited nodding their head or just ran off across the map looking for someone else to screw over. If you're using it one time that can be excused but if it's a a bunch of games you can't feign ignorance.
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well, i still dont know what the exploit is. you have to use 2 knife addons? i play legion from time to time, and was thinking of doing that, but so far didnt. But i understood that correctly, yes?
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@Detective_Jonathan @powerbats I'm not saying a large amount of people dont know. It's probably, in reality, like 10% of players don't know. But the fact is that there are people that will not have heard about it and may be punished by this blanket ban when we've seen they can simply disable things previously.
Also, as for post game chat, some people leave immediately. Some fo us on consoles have found that many people simply block messages. You cant add them to a group or message them. Even then, most killers would assume youre just being salty and not even believe it.
Its not the majority of players I'm worried about, but the few that do, truly, play the game alone for fun and have no interest in social media or gaming communities.
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@sulaiman yes if you use filthy blade and another blade to increase mend, it cumulatively/exponentially (haven sat and actually ran numbers to see which it is) increases mend timer.
so first DW would be like 30 seconds, then a minute or two, then the third application would be upwards of 5 minutes to mend.
They're supposed to add a flat amount to mend timers but when used in this fashion, increase it on top of what is already added every time you apply deep wounds.
Its like it adds another addon to your build every hit.
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Oh I understand but account history can't be lied away, if you've never run that combo and now all of a sudden you're running it extensively. Then logic clearly dictates you're aware of the exploit and are abusing it.
Think of it like you perk/character history, the devs can clearly see what your favorite perks are on either side and on which characters. For some it'll be AD/DS/MOM/(insert w/e op perk we want to use). For others they might be running BL/UE/IW/SC for a sneakier build and for others a loot build Plunderers/AITH etc.
On killer side that person may like playing Nurse, Billy, Legion and generally all their builds are pretty similar they run the same perks and go for say addons that fit a particular playstyle.
Now all of the sudden that person is playing Clown and a lot of the Clown once the reload exploit became well known. Then the 2nd exploit becomes known on Legion and all of a sudden they play Legion non stop.
They're perk and addon choices change from what they've been running for months now to the exploit build. So once again you can't feign ignorance because your account history is there for them to see.
For the people that might do it once ot 2x or so they'll probably let that slide but if it's multiple occurrences and you never ran it before you're getting whacked.
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Either way, I won't be reporting anyone JUST for using this addon setup. If it is blatantly obvious they're doing it to exploit I'll hit that report button.
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@powerbats Right, but there are players who have probably been using this build unknowingly who havent been told about it and can be banned. I'm not saying many people fit that description, but why punish the innocent?
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Yeah, I disable my messages when playing killer. I won't be reporting anyone because innocent people could get banned.
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@powerbats I would like to point out that I would EXPECT more people to use the exploit than before it existed even without knowledge of it. Simply due to the fact that when someone uses the addons right now it will be VERY effective at it's job (in that these Killers will be running into people who are mending far more often than otherwise). At which point it is natural to want to keep using the addons.
They just run the addons to try them out. See it get's results, and then keep running them. I did that myself to figure out what Huntress and Spirit addons to run until I started getting good and understanding the exact numbers.
I only know those exact numbers because I was actively looking for them. The average player will just have an idea of how effective it was by their results. Which we would expect to be very good. Thus you should expect a lot more innocents running the addons than otherwise. Just like I would expect a lot of people to run franks mixtape.
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This reminds me of the situation with the Wraith/Sloppy Butcher just recently.
I usually run Sloppy Butcher on most of my killers, Wraith being no exception. I didn't know about the blood surge problem until I encountered it as a survivor. THEN I found out about it on the forum (after searching about it.)
Pretty sure by then, I've probably screwed over at least some of the survivors' games playing the Wraith. If it had been bannable, I probably would have been banned, purely out of ignorance.
I didn't know about this Legion's addon issue either until the developers posted on top of the forum. Then I had to google how to do it to make sure I don't do it. Fortunately I usually just double up on the cool-down addons (Julie/Joey's mix tapes) so it isn't something that I had to worry about in the first place. But I can definitely see why someone would have picked out the broken addons without even knowing anything about it.
Hopefully the developers are giving people warnings before banning them.
What they should do is 1. Write it in the News (aka New Content) Section so that when people load up the game, this information is given out as the first thing they are forced to read, and 2. hotfix it as fast as possible, or at least make it unusable for now until they can get it fixed.
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I see this warning and still don't know ######### the glitch is. People just mentioning blades and #########. Honestly you can tell this is the same people who made Drake and Josh for the DS
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So BHVR will start banning people just for using 2 certain add-ons with legion? wow, just.... Wow
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@Peanits ya'll are really going to ban people for using Legion add-ons?
This isn't how to handle this man...
What if someone just thinks its a strong add-on because they never used it before it was bugged? But they use it because wow these mends are long?...
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I'm sure the devs will see when they look into the matches, but there will be a hell of a lot of false reports about this too.
During Tru3's stream today, there was a match against Legion where the mend time was slightly longer. His whole chat was screaming exploit when it was quite obvious from the Deep Wounds bar that the killer had Deep Wounds Study. Turned out the Legion only had the one knife.
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Why don't they put this as a message next time you start the game?
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To clarify a few things:
- They are temporary bans, not permanent.
- We are not banning anyone that just uses the add-ons, we are reviewing each report individually and carefully checking our data. If someone hasn't touched legion in months and suddenly picked them back up overnight and joined the legion fanclub and just so happened to equip those specific add-ons right away match after match, for example. If you are not intentionally abusing it, you're fine.
- Exploit abuse has always been a bannable offense as is covered by the EULA and our game rules (which can be found here: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/19450/game-rules-and-report-system#latest)
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@Peanits Thank you for the clarification. Like I said I know its a small group of people who actually don't know and run it because of its intended use, but I was concerned about how it could affect those without malicious intent.
Hearing they're temporary and and are being reviewed individually makes me feel a lot better about it.
<3
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