My full critique of the Legion changes, as a rank 1 M1 Legion
Hi, in this thread, I'm going to go over every last piece of the Legion changes and give my honest-to-goodness thoughts on them. I'm a devout Legion main who is at rank 1 Killer with him more often than not, and I got there through learning how to be a 110 M1 Killer. Basically, what I'm saying is, I know my way around Legion and consider myself qualified enough for my two cents to be worth two cents.
Let's begin.
- The Legion’s base movement speed is increased to 4.6m/s.
This should go without saying, but this is just a flat buff, and a huge one at that. Finally, Legion will be able to have a choice other than "4 hit downs" or "110 M1 Killer"—both of which are terrible options that will make Legion want to commit neck rope.
This is easily the biggest and most important change out of all of these, and I love it.
- The Legion’s Terror Radius is increased to 32m.
I don't really understand the obsession with giving 115 Killers big, fat Terror Radii. 32 meters is a HUGE distance to get notified of where the Killer is coming from. In my opinion, all 115 Killers with low-to-medium mobility (Clown, Trapper, etc.) should have 28 meter TRs unless their power calls for something else, and that includes Legion, since Feral Frenzy isn't nearly as mobile as some people think.
- Most of The Legion’s add-ons are rebalanced or reworked to account for the changes to Feral Frenzy and the Deep Wound status effect.
Cool, but overall no comment.
- The Iridescent button addon no longer requires The Legion to apply Deep Wound for the effects to be active.
Interesting buff to one of his better addons.
- The recharge time of Feral Frenzy is increased and now requires a full power gauge to use it. Once it has been activated, the Legion must wait until the power gauge is full to be able to trigger the power again.
I don't particularly care for this change, as it makes Feral Frenzy's usage restriction even stronger than Yamaoka's Haunting (Spirit's phasewalk), a much deadlier power. Feral Frenzy as an offensive tool is basically just a bootleg Spirit, so why would it be used less often than Spirit's when it's weaker in that regard?
For those wondering how I know it'll be used less often than Spirit's: Right now, Haunting and Frenzy both take 15 seconds to fully recharge from 0. A nerfed recharge speed along with only being able to be used when fully charged means it will take longer to recharge than Spirit's but have the same restriction apply. Not a good thing, not at all.
- The duration of Feral Frenzy is increased. The Legion spends longer in frenzy.
This, ladies and gentlemen, is what we call an "epic gamer moment".
I love this change. A 6-second Frenzy is, frankly, pathetic. Even if Legion's movement speed was higher, 6 seconds is still a joke. However, I find this worryingly counterbalanced by the next change:
- The movement speed of Feral Frenzy is significantly reduced. The Legion moves faster than base speed while in frenzy, but not as fast as they did before.
I do not understand this change. At all. The math doesn't check out; Legion's 132% movement speed is so pathetically slow that spamming lunge will actually make you go faster. I think that Frenzy's movement speed should be buffed, and to show you why, I'll do some math.
Let's say the Frenzy speed got buffed to 150% but the duration stayed at 6 seconds.
150%=6 meters/second
Running Survivor=4 meters/second
Legion can close the gap with a running Survivor at a rate of only 2 meters per second at a 150% movement speed Frenzy. This means that with a 6-second Frenzy, all a Survivor needs to do to outpace a Frenzying Legion without even so much as using loops or Exhaustion Perks is to be more than 12 meters away from them when they start Frenzying. To put into perspective how small that is, a Survivor can run 12 meters in 3 seconds, or 2 seconds if they have an Exhaustion Perk on.
To make matters worse, Legion doesn't even move at 150% speed; he moves at 132%. His catch-up is even worse than the one described above. I hope that if they go through with this change, the slowest they make him is 125%, but even at that speed, he would need a Frenzy that lasts longer than 12 seconds to catch that same Survivor standing 12 meters away. So, in short, even with the duration increase, his movement speed should be buffed, not nerfed.
- The Legion can no longer see blood pools (in addition to not seeing scratch marks) while in Feral Frenzy.
This is just... Why? Everyone and their grandmother was saying that Legion should see scratch marks in FF mode, and yet you nerf that ability even more?! This is almost as bad as when the Legion first came out, and you answered EVERYBODY's pleas to make mending activate Nurse's Calling by NERFING the Perk so it detected even less actions!
Devs, what were you thinking with this change?
- Feral Frenzy is immediately and automatically cancelled whenever The Legion misses an attack while in frenzy.
I understand that a lot of people think this change went a bit too far, and I can kind of see where they're coming from, but in my honest opinion as a rank 1 Legion main: Most of the time you miss in Frenzy, it is because of your own recklessness, and you should be punished accordingly. There are some exceptions to this, like playing with high ping or playing on console (shudder), but overall this is a perfectly fitting punishment for when people get too excited and don't anticipate jukes or lunge overconfidently. The only issue I take up with this is the nerf to Legion's power recharge, for obvious reasons. But aside from that, I think this change is perfectly healthy.
- The Deep Wound timer pauses for survivors within The Killer's Terror Radius–regardless of whether they are in a chase or not.
- The Deep Wound timer pauses while Mending.
- The Killer does not see the Deep Wound timer progress–only the Deep Wound bar to know that Deep Wound has been applied.
- The Deep Wound timer progress is no longer reduced by regular Feral Frenzy attacks.
These changes were all made so that Deep Wound and Feral Frenzy became what, in my opinion, they were meant to be: Utilities, not chase mechanics.
Deep Wound in a chase was already a bad thing. Combine that with Frenzy spam, and you have a recipe for disaster—and it was. It was disastrous. Everybody who understood balance hated this, and it was the sole reason behind everyone despising Legion's existence.
Now, however, Deep Wound is no longer a chase tool, but closer to a stall tool, threatening Survivors with the knowledge that they will go down if they don't mend, forcing them to spend time doing another objective. These changes overall are very good in my opinion, and the only thing I might add is to increase the mending timer, because as it stands right now, its stall is quite weak and could use some buffs.
MY OVERALL THOUGHTS
As a whole, I think these changes had a great thought process behind them. I've always believed that Feral Frenzy should be a utility power and not a chase power, and this is a step in the right direction. This new Legion can play like a mix between the Pig and the Plague: Combining hard, fast-paced, near-constant aggression and injuries to pressure Survivors with a heavy methodical flavoring to it, slowly whittling down the Survivors and driving them away from generators, thus allowing Legion players to put some brains into their brawn. However, there are some undesirable changes in here that will certainly put a damper on that, and I think they absolutely need to go. These include the Frenzy speed nerf, the lack of blood marks, and the recharge speed and power usage nerf. But overall, I think these changes have the potential to be very, very good, and I hope the necessary improvements are made to them.
Now, before I close out, I'd like to address some arguments that many people like to make regarding these changes.
"Feral Frenzy will be terrible at chaining hits now!"
I think we'll have to wait and see for the speed nerf before we can make final judgement on that, and honestly, it already was terrible at chaining hits, so I don't see why you're just now complaining about it.
"All Feral Frenzy is good for now is a free first hit!"
No. Just, no.
One successful Frenzy hit will get you that free first hit, but it also, at the exact same time, opens up an opportunity to apply those free hits to other Survivors, and in that process apply a ticking time bomb to their health that they will have no choice but to deal with eventually, thus driving them off generators for at least some time—in other words, stall, something nearly every Killer needs more of.
Frenzy is a utility power. Use it like one.
"Without being able to down with Frenzy, Legion is useless!"
... I have no words.
Well, I have a couple, actually.
So, we take away Legion's ability to down with Frenzy, yes? But here's what Frenzy does in return:
-Puts the Survivor on a one-hit down
-Lets you try to put other Survivors on a one-hit down
-Forces Survivors to take time mending, allowing you a little bit of extra time in the event the chase becomes longer than you expected
-Applies a Deep Wound VFX to the Survivor's screen that darkens their vision and applies random opaque blood splatters, hindering their ability to, well, see
Use the effects of Frenzy and Deep Wound to your advantage. With Frenzy alone, you can secure a guaranteed hit to multiple Survivors, put them all on a one-hit down, and obscure their vision, giving you more edge in your mindgames—speaking of mindgames, Legion is now a 115 Killer. Not only that, but Legion is the shortest and smallest Killer in the game. They are the most easily obscured by walls and can hide themselves better than any other Killer. Combine this with the Deep Wound VFX and use this to your advantage!
I will not hesitate to make the argument that because of their size and vision-obscuring, a Legion moving at 115% movement speed might be the best Killer for basic attack mindgames in the game—except for Freddy, since he's also very small and the Dream World is full of mist. But even so, a 115 Legion has much more mindgame potential than people think. You just need to use what you have to your advantage.
"Legion is just a worse Plague now!"
No, they're a better Plague. And I'll show you why.
Feral Frenzy allows you to:
-Instantly apply injuries to multiple Survivors in rapid succession by sprinting at them
-Stall the game by applying ticking time bombs to multiple Survivors that they will have no choice but to deal with
-Enhance your ability to traverse the map (maybe, depends on the movement speed nerf and duration buff)
-Enhance your mindgames as the smallest Killer in the game through visual distortion
Meanwhile, Vile Purge allows you to:
-Build up a power that slows you down as you charge and hold it
-Release an avoidable projectile that VERY slowly builds up to a free hit unless you get all of it on the Survivor at once
-Apply VFX hindrances to the Survivor's screen that only cover the edge of their vision and don't really enhance your mindgames, which are already weak because Plague is so tall and her clothes are so wavy
-Give you the ability to become a bootlegged Huntress for 1 minute, but only if the Survivors cleanse, which is an action that takes away the free hit you applied (and may not even take place if the Survivors don't feel threatened by you), and only if you go out of your way to find and harvest the source of the cleansing, an action that a Killer with no extra mobility like Plague simply cannot afford to do the majority of the time
All in all, Legion can afford to be much more aggressive than Plague can, and more importantly, gets much more finely rewarded for using their power effectively.
TL;DR: The changes to Legion had the right mindset but were very questionably executed. I don't think it would be all too hard to fix them, however.
Comments
-
I agree. They should make the movement speed faster in Feral Frenzy, but blood marks doesn't make sense. In a frenzy which they cause bleeding of a deep wound, shouldn't they be able to SEE the blood? Doesn't make too much sense, considering killers are all blood thirsty.
3 -
I agree 100% with this so thanks for putting this out there, getting tired of all the screaming about this today when we haven't even touched it yet but I actually realised the TR increase might be a "supposed" killer instinct range buff to encourage spreading of deep wounds to all (albeit still local) survs. I'm just against the missed attack thing but as you stated "console" which is what I play so RIP
1 -
@No_Mither_No_Problem if I had to venture a guess about the speed drop, it is to keep the final speed of the Frenzy the same as it is now. That is to say that the Frenzy speed at 115% base movement will have a smaller percentage boost then Frenzy at 110% base movement, but both will be moving at the same rate of speed in the end. It's just poorly worded. No offense meant, but like how a lot of stuff is in this game.
2 -
Yes, the disconnect between console and PC for DBD is larger than many other games I've seen, even fast-paced FPS games like Overwatch.
Unfortunately, I think it would be best to prioritize PC balance and take care of it first, as that is what most people use to play DBD—at least, I think so.
2 -
So what say you on Legion's pallet and window hopping? I still feel that it's a useless tool now that you can't chain a hit with it on an injured person. With Iridescent Button it's of course badass but without it I see no real benefit from it unless it's the first hit.
1 -
If they buffed Frenzy's speed, I'd be fine with the Cancelation change. As someone who loves using the Lunge Dash, and admittedly often forgets to use it, the Cancelation seems dumb if they're going to nerf his Frenzy speed.
It seems a little counterintuitive imo.
1 -
A) You can still give injured people Deep Wound, allowing you to set up a hit chain
B) The purpose of yeeting over stuff is so that Survivors can’t just automatically shut down your hit chain by pressing space near one of the many blockades on the map
C) I never usually have it come into play myself, since people don’t bother trying to loop a Legion.
4 -
Great breakdown btw and not a rantfest but well thought out and reasoned.
One thought I had was to make it instead of depleting it fully a missed attack depletes 2x or 3x with the new mechanics the amount of energy a hit would normally consume. So it punishes you for spamming wildly but not if you miss 1 swing.
2 -
Also the wording on Feral Frenzy not being able to damage Deep Wounds timer specifies "regular Feral Frenzy attacks" which has me thinking that you'll still be able to damage it IF you decide to use add-ons to do so.
1 -
My question is, why should Legion not be forced out of Frenzy for missing an attack, but Nurse, who is MUCH more difficult and has a much harder-to-land hit, should be punished with a dramatically longer-than-normal cooldown for missing a blink attack?
Feral Frenzy is slower and less skillful than a Nurse’s blink, and Legion has full control over his Frenzy while using it, while Nurse can only travel in a straight line. So why should you be punished less for making a bigger mistake?
2 -
Because Nurse's Blink has no CD as FR does. If you have no CD and no fatique - Nurse will be non-lunge short-blink spammer which you can not ever dodge or mindgame.
1 -
@No_Mither_No_Problem Initially I was upset with the changes but then I realized that using Insidious Legion is actually a good strategy now.
Before it was an okay strategy to scare folks, hide near hooks or progressed generators and wait until the right moment. Frenzy out of insidious and revel in the disarray and fear.
Now you can give someone deep wounds, make it look like you ran away with Monitor and Abuse and hide around a corner with Insidious. Then just pop right back over like the Koolaid man while they're mending and down them.
0 -
I still don’t see your point. In 99% of scenarios, missing a swing in Feral Frenzy means one thing, and one thing only: You’re dumb. And when you play dumb, you should be punished accordingly.
1 -
I totally see that you never ever miss swings in FR, otherwise - you're dumb as well.
But back to point - depleting 15 (though, no, wait, its more now) seconds recharge ability with 1 miss, plus getting 3 seconds stun above it, plus unable to use it for next 15 (oh, wait, its more now) seconds till it recharges fully, plus having only BL1 speed during frenzy (125%) and 32m TR which do not allow you to sneak close before activating FR.
If you dont see any problems here - you're dumber.
0 -
The changes state that Frenzy is cancelled in a missed swing, not depleted—much like how Spirit’s power gauge doesn’t reset to 0 when you come out of phase. Unless you’re already at the end of the power, you won’t have to wait the full time—a truth that is buffed by the increased duration.
Speaking of increased duration, there’s only so much you can nerf Frenzy’s speed when the difference between 115% and 132% is only 17%—meaning that chances are, an increase in duration is likely to, at the very least, offset the speed nerf.
I agree that the speed nerf is bad, however, so don’t try to convince me it’s a problem, because I already think so.
And if you’re that obsessed with sneaking up on a Survivor, then just play a stealth Killer or, better yet, run Monitor and Abuse—it was already extremely meta on Legion before anyway.
My main issue is your upsetness at the Frenzy stub. Legion isn’t automatically completely castrated in a chase because “oh boo hoo I got Frenzy stunned”. He’s going to be a 115 Killer with good mindgames; make use of it. And if you miss an attack, then the Survivor is obviously still there and can very likely be in a compromising position. You’ll be fine.
I agree that a lot of these changes are unnecessary, especially when stacked on top of each other. But acting like they’re the complete end of the world is just a silly overreaction.
0 -
@No_Mither_No_Problem You beautiful man, you! I had never read the changes like that. I always assumed that the power bar would just flush like a toilet once I missed a swing. If it just ends the Frenzy but retains the charges it's far kinder than I originally thought.
@Shad03 Come over here and take a look at what @No_Mither_No_Problem said!
2 -
i agree with just about everything you said here they really should buff his speed instead of nerfing it he can't put survivor into the dying state no more anyways with his frenzy.
0 -
They haven't been bothering to loop Legion because it wasn't possible, now it will be. I can see in a case where 1 person is injured so you smack them to find healthy Survivors yeah. My point is that the ability to hop over things isn't as useful anymore, originally it was to yes chain attacks but also to down someone at a loop. Now it's only for an instance at a loop to chain but other than that it has no real use other than setting up a chain.
Legion didn't need Bamboozle, now he does because his natural ability to hop has less impact and usage. Before you could hop and smack in a chase, now if you do it you better be chaining or you're an idiot for using your power.
0 -
good evening, just a quick question! is the legion patch already in place? thx
0 -
Just... learn to M1, though. I already explained why a 115 Legion has great mindgames; if you’re not able to get downs without Frenzy, that’s entirely your fault and you should feel bad.
0 -
You truly are wise. You looked at that from a completely unbiased point of view. I seriously respect that.
1 -
What did you mean exactly with this part:
----------------------------------
"Feral Frenzy will be terrible at chaining hits now!"
I think we'll have to wait and see for the speed nerf before we can make final judgement on that, and honestly, it already was terrible at chaining hits, so I don't see why you're just now complaining about it.
-----------------------------------
Do you mean it isn't good at chaining hits between multiple survivors?
0 -
Yes. Even now, Feral Frenzy moves only 32% faster than a running Survivor, meaning that people who have even a moderate amount of distance on you can easily outrun a full Frenzy.
I showed you the math; even if Frenzy moved at 150% speed, it would still be mediocre at chaining hits at best.
0 -
Oh, but then you talk about applying feral frenzy as an effective thing later in your post? I was confused on if it was good or bad based on this conflict
0 -
Yes, it CAN be effective when you actually apply multiple hits. Feral Frenzy in and of itself has much potential. The problem occurs when it is very difficult for that potential to be realized because of how easy it is to shut down Feral Frenzy's hit chain. That's why these changes can either make or break Legion, and it depends entirely on how long and fast the new Frenzy will be.
I think the change I'm most averse to is the severe nerf to his power's recharge, because most "chain" hits in Frenzy, at least in my experience, come from getting close to them but running out of Frenzy, and activating it again soon after. I can understand how that may feel unfair and could need some reigning in, but considering that Legion really struggles to get multiple people injured in just one use of Frenzy unless they're very close together, the recharge nerf really shouldn't happen. That, in my opinion, could gut Legion more than anything else here.
Unless the duration is so long that Legion can effectively chain hits in one Frenzy, but that's most likely not the case.
0
