Remove Survivor Second Chances
Remove all of the second chance perks, DS, BT, MoM, and the rest, and in return you can take back all of the Expose perks the killers have. I would rather the survivors not get free escapes for doing absolutely nothing, and I'm fine with not getting insta downs for having to actually do work (outside NOED requiring no work, but I'm fine with it being gone too).
Comments
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The devs won't do that, they are mid-rank survivors and probably rely on all those second chance perks anyways
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I agree with all of those but Borrowed Time. It really is essential to counter tunneling. As for the others, I absolutely agree.
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Remove Hook rescues too! damned second and third chances!
While where at it, remove Survivors from game, turn dbd into a knitting simulator!
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I'm fine with the current DS. It only works if you tunnel someone off the hook within 60 seconds. It's slightly annoying but not anywhere near as overbearing as it used to be. The only one that really needs to be addressed is MoM. Borrowed time and the other ones are situational and aren't that huge of a deal.
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You assume I just want free kills. No. I want to still have to work for them, I'm just tired of playing my best only to be stopped by a perk that required no effort on the survivors part to give an extra hit, or be removed from a hook right in front of you, I want to remove anything that rewards bad or brain dead play. You can't always save everyone. But if someone is camping or tunneling, then stop trying to save the person, get the gens done, and get out. The killers gets no pips, no points, and only one kill. There is always a way around those things without the need for easy mode perks. And in the hands of skilled survivors using coms to cheat in SWF, they are far too powerful.
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The amount of second chance perks has gone out of control. They're very bad for the games health. I thought they learned this from old DS but then they go and release MoM. Nothing was learned.
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IMO, DS, BT and exhaustion perks are fine. MoM is debatable as it has high upside with low downside. NOED is an interesting one. Survivors can control its own destiny... yet, there is only one hex perk that relies on dull totems. I think they should have another perk that has to do with dull totems. That way, survivors can feel more inclined to cleanse totems.
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Mettle is really the only "free" second chance perk here. DS is absolutely fine and has counterplay. Borrowed Time is essential against heavy camping and tunneling. Dead Hard can be baited plus exhaustion addons are a thing.
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I'd say that current DS and BT are fine. DS is anti-tunnel and BT is anti-camp. As for MoM...
It's just a blatant second chance, definitely needs a change.
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The solution to heavy camping and tunneling is to get the gens done and leave.
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MoM is garbage. The rest are fine and are there for a reason. If you're not tunneling/camping Bt and Ds don't even matter.
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Or also, give the killer a perk that overrides second chance perks like MoM and BT, but make them work for it. A totem or something that can be broken, or it only activates when someone is saved outside of their terror radius, or something.
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The only “free” escape you mentioned is MoM. BT and DS counter camping/tunneling. How do you feel about unbreakable? Most of these should stay including the exposed perks.
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Current DS is fine, it is the best anti-tunneling perk of the whole game and you can counter it by simply slugging a survivor 60 seconds
Borrowed time is also fine, another great anti tunneling perk, simply hit the survivor unhooking instead of the one hooked
MoM is NOT fine, as i have stated many times i am very unhappy with this perk and the absolute cynism the devs have shown us by creating it, you are forced to use your M2 to counter it which wont be always possible specially on loops, some killers like freddy, pig and legion have no actual counter against it
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Can everyone stop saying we just straight up remove them! Those perks belong to survivors. ######### will happen to those survivors that have the perks?!
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Yes doing gens is usually the best way to counter heavy camping but let's assume everyone is solo and there is no kindred. Most likely not everyone would be doing gens so Borrowed Time is there as a perk slot to COUNTER that. And if BT is such an issue, attack the savior. Don't tunnel.
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@Vetrathene That's what Myc does.
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DS isn't really a "second chance" like MoM is. The killer has full control on whether or not they trigger it. Same with borrowed. If new DS and BT didn't exist, camping and tunneling would be even worse to go up against. No amount of gens can save a survivor who's being hard tunneled and camped (w/o DS or BT).
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And that would be fine if everyone played solo like was originally intended with the game. But with SWF these kinds of perks can break the game.
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Except both BT and MoM don't allow you to insta down them. Now while its good to use against BT since you can use it against the saver, it still does nothing if they also have MoM activated.
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Ah, time to point fingers at SWF. Alright, even with SWF Borrowed Time is usually necessary to save the survivor being camped. SWF can easily get those gens done and 3 escape but what about the camped survivor? Should they just be done as soon as its their first hook? Borrowed Time is fine.
Also usually you can use SWF altruism against them, especially if they do have BT. A lot of them will trade places on that hook.
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Then it comes down to who is having fun, and right now it looks like someone is suffering in this scenario either way. And I feel it should be the one who is on a team of four, versus the one who is alone and playing by themselves. Its punishing the minority just because they are the minority. The devs want the most people to have fun, but when the minority of those people are needed to have the game be played at all, that causes a problem, and why I and other killer mains get frustrated. I don't speak for anyone but myself, but I also know I'm not the only one who has expressed dissatisfaction with the way the game is currently implemented and balanced.
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- DS, dont tunnel, if you tunnel the survivor you deserve to eat that fat DS, its your mistake that causes it, actually try to improve at the game. 2. BT: Don't camp, and no, end game isn't a good arguement because if you're camping end game you can just down the survivor unhooking and hook them, rinse and repeat. 3. Mettle really only bothers bad killers who suck at chases. Quit trying to ask for free kills when you already have the EGC for that, and actually try to get better at the game, survivors have to basically play swf if they want to survive with a sub-par BP gain. I don't know about anyone else but the newer generation of killer mains seem way more whiney and entitled than the ones during the dark days.
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MoM borrows plenty of killers because it has no counter play and just makes it take even longer to down a person. Also survivors have a huge advantage in chases, as most of the map design is really suvivor sided with plenty of near infinite loops that the devs refuse to fix. DS has counterplay, but its still a free chance to escape for doing nothing but getting removed from a hook. BT encourages bad calls instead of trying to play smart. And all of these are made even worse by SWF.
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Mettle, is NOTHING compared to the dark days or DS 1.0, you obviously have never played back then. Killers have insanely broken addons that you cant counter like omega blink, 3+ blink, iri hatchets, insta saw, turning addons, trappers pink addons, hags mint rag, etc, etc. Killers don't have it hard, just because you got outskilled by some survivors doesn't mean the game is survivor sided, actually try to improve your gameplay. Everything else but myself mindset is toxic and horrible for the community, try to play both sides.
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No one should really be suffering. Right now we're talking about Borrowed Time, a perk that doesn't help the survivor running it whatsoever. It helps make sure the unhooked person isn't just tunneled to oblivion.
Camping and tunneling are legitimate strats. But Borrowed Time is a legitimate counter. You're even further punished if you tunnel through Borrowed Time and they have DS. Both of these perks are prevented by not tunneling and going after the savior or applying pressure to the others.
Fun is important in this game, but so are counters to something both sides do.
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I was actually back there then, I started on release. I remember real infinites. I remember healing with self care before a killer could finish vaulting. I remember when all vaults where fast vaults. I remember when vaccum pallets where added. I remember D.S. 1.0. I remember each and every change to this game that has happened. And while it is not as bad as it once was, it can still use improvment, that is my aim, whether my opinions are right or not, I will still state them, and if someone provides an arugment, I will read it, or listen to it, and either continue my course or change my mind based on the information presented. Can you say the same?
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I agree with you on the principle of everyone should have fun. I just feel like something needs to be done about the current meta and abuse of these perks. Because this game has a lot of them, but so few are actually used at even low tier gameplay, and I feel thats a problem with perk design. And second chance perks are part of that problem. They're are choosen because they are get out of jail free cards. And when it comes down to it, very few killers use expose perks, so its not even really a fair comparison or trade. Just from my point of view and my experience, when certain perks/abilities/whatever are overused, something needs to be changed, either everything else needs a buff, or the offending abilities need a nerf or removal, depending.
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I agree that second chance perks are an issue but it really depends on the situation and level of coordination the survivors have. But that's a separate issue with that and the perks themselves, except Mettle.
Compared to the other perks, yeah Mettle is an issue.
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Alright let's go through your list: Remember, there's a difference between a free second chance and a second chance that you need to work for.
- Mettle of Man: I agree, this is a free second chance perk and it needs more requirements in my opinion. Perhaps taking hits while the killer is carrying a survivor is a better option to make the player work for their second chance.
- Decisive Strike: This isn't a free second chance perk because you have to be hooked and then picked up within 40/50/60 seconds after being unhooked. In other words, if you don't focus the unhooked survivor, then you're mostly fine in my honest opinion.
- Borrowed Time: This perk directly counters camping/proxy camping but you as the killer have counter play. That counter play is called: Just down the unhooker and you solve both the DS and BT problems.
- Adrenaline: It's not a free second chance perk because you have to complete all 5 generators. You'll have better luck comparing this perk to Devour Hope because it rewards you for doing your job.
- Deliverance: I think we can all agree that this perk is NOT a free second chance perk. You have to safely unhook a teammate to use it and even after activating the perk, you may not be able to use it if the killer camps or someone else saves you.
If there are anymore perks that you can think of, I'll gladly review whether or not the perk is a free second chance perk.
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I would say Aside from Adrenaline and Deliverance, none of those others require any kind of work though, they just activate at predetermined times, and while Adrenaline also falls under this category, I agree the work towards it is the generators being repaird. I also didn't mention Adrenaline or Deliverance. But Adrenaline on even one survivor is hard, on 2 or more it becomes a problem, and unfortunately the one perk most people think is OP is NOED is its counter. Deliverance is fine, it requires work and has a large downside.
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Decisive Strike can be annoying at times because you could stumble on the unhooked survivor at the last second. They need to do something to the perk so that the perk knows they are being focused after being unhooked imo.
Adrenaline, I can see the perk being troublesome when it's being used by SWF. In fact, literally anything can be troublesome with SWF but that's a topic for a different discussion because SWF breaks the fundamentals of DBD. However, Adrenaline for solo survivor is usually a wasted perk slot because it can activate at unnecessary times such as when you're already healed or not in a chase.
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Literally everything you said is incorrect.
You must be a new player. I've been playing since the games release with well over 3k hours. MoM is very much like old DS. Once you get some more hours into the game you'll realize how wrong your opinions are.
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@Elegant The current DS also works when you don't tunnel at all, but simply down the survivors fast. DS really needs to de-activate when another survivor gets downed/hooked after the DS user got unhooked. As it currently is, in a lot of cases DS punishes killers for playing well.
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All those except ds and bt
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uh, ppl dont run these 2nd chance perks to counter exposed perks, I dont know why u suggest to remove those as compensation
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And another thread about second chances. GitGud and just try thinking what will happen if theyre were removed. But yeah i know you couldnt do that. thats why you wrote this nonsense thread.
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THIS +1000
Seriously my biggest issue with it. People like to say, just don't tunnel, but that isn't accurate. I get hit with this perk quite frequently and I don't tunnel almost ever.
Instead of an anti-tunnel perk it's currently just a 60 second immunity perk. Either the time needs to be reduced to like 45 seconds or as you said de-activate as soon as a different survivor goes down.
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I keep in mind who got unhooked recently and just slug them. Not the nicest way to handle it, but if I think about the amount of DS user I already faced by now, who immediatly try to get into chase after an unhook, it's just fair to rely on some slugging right now. And even if slugging doesn't give you direct process, it still buys you time and helps to build up some pressure.
I understand that the new DS might frustrating in some cases, but in general the rework they've done is really quite right compared to other changes where they rely more on simple nerfs, which is not the best way to approach balance.
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Yeah, I've had this problem as well. I just stumble across the person on a generator and am like, well your the only I can find, its been awhile, go to pick them up and they STILL have DS. The timer is just too long right now on it I feel.
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Classify second chance perks because many of them can easily be prevented... MoM is the only real one you can argue about currently tbh.
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None of these second chance perks is really that detrimental to a good killer main. At most MoM is the best of the bunch and even that isn't fantastic.
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MoM is one thing but the others are fine.
If you get screwed by MoM it's not your fault, if you consistently get hit with DS and BT there's a very simple way to stop that happening - take the trade with the unhooker. Either that or just grind through the perks if you must. Deliverance is by no means free as there's a decent chance you won't even get to activate the perk, and adrenaline = playing with 3 perks for the majority of the game.
MoM is the only remotely free one, the others either have requirements (safe unhook + don't get hooked before activating it, survive until 5 gens are done) or counter camping/tunneling in particular.
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They're fine, MoM just shouldn't stack with everything. Then it's OP.
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I'm cool with this, I remember escaping before they were added so it can be done.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. All of the second chance perks are balanced in a vacuum. Alone, each on is individually balanced and not a problem. The problem comes with having to deal with 9 of them in a game.
Till that gets looked at, its mori season. You had your 2nd chance. No 3rd ones.
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Hot take: Spirit Fury:Pallet Stun::MoM:Survivor hits
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