MoM and statistics
So, I don't think Devs gave enough thought on MoM. It is a one time DH. If DH is fine, then MoM is definitely fine.
In all honestly, out of dozens of games since MoM came out, I was seeing constant 3x 4x kills as survivor. Now that rank reset has happened, honestly I've seen some pretty potato killers, and several 4 escapes, but at higher ranks, killers were 3x 4x so I don't think they have enough data to make a change to MoM, especially considering it's such a balanced perk. One use per game, prerequisites, AND a penalty if used. DH can be used every 40 seconds and is more versatile, saving from insta downs, extending chases and passing bear traps.
Comments
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With DH, you don't get a sprint burst to get to the next area. It's like a BT hit without having to mend. DH is fine the way it is. MoM needs adjustments.
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While I agree that MoM is a trash DH I don't really care it got nerfed was a bad perk anyways at least in my encounters with it as killer (and survivor) it shall be nerfed and nobody will miss it DH is way better. But just a quick warning just sit back and relax and enjoy getting downvoted by peeps 100 times you have an unpopular opinion so I will watch your downvote count spiral up.
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DH is fine, you're missing my point, I'm not saying we should nerf DH. I'm pointing out DH is much stronger than MoM and they're listening to whiny killers and nerfing MoM even though it's such a balanced perk as is.
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For full disclosure, I've been one pip away from rank 1 before, and was at rank 8 at last reset (due to not playing as much) that's where I was seeing 3x 4x kills. After rank reset I was kicked all the way down to... I think 14, and those killers are babies and we were getting 3 and 4 man escapes. I'm a stealth player, so if I can run loops on a killer, then they're not very good. At these low ranks, I've run killers for a couple gens at a time - And I'm not good at loops and can't 360. PS4
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The user and all related content has been deleted.4
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@Sairek 67% Do tell. I gotta hear this. Who?
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Trapper Traps - catches MoM, DH will avoid.
Hillbilly - Chainsaw
Nurse - Her speed more than makes up for one additional hit.
Myers - Tier III, Insta Mori, Silent Myer grabs, etc.
Huntress - hatchets, and they're wanting to give her a headshot insta down.
Cannibal - insta downs
Clown - Red head's pinky finger
Spirit - silent spirit, grabs,
Plague - Corruption
So of all the killers, these four don't have built in counters to MoM:
Pig -RBT
Hag - collision traps
Doctor
Freddy
The smallest thing that makes killers have to rethink their strategy and they lose their minds. - Let's not forget ALL killers have Moris which are OP and It definitely counters MoM.
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Check out my list, I could even see moving Clown to the list of not a good counter vs MoM, making it 5, but that's just because Using Pinky finger is like Using a Mori. Otherwise, you should reconsider your strategy, If you're M1 with Spirit, you're playing her wrong. If you don't think Myers can counter with multiple addons that counter, and his base power counters, I can't help you there. Nurse, can definitely counter MoM, easier than DH.
I agree, MoM takes no skill, DH takes skill and timing, but DH is MUCH more versatile, has no prerequsites, no penalties, except 40 second exhaustion, and can save in more ways. I have very few perks unlocked on my killers, because I like to tier III survivors, but I should probably just be a killer main with all these advantages.
Make that 6, I left off Wraith. But with his speed boost after uncloaking, he's debatable.
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Wraith, Nurse, Myers, Hag, Doctor, Freddy, Pig, Clown Spirit and Legion all have no real way to counter MoM. I count Myers, because his power only slightly slows down MoM stack acquisition and can still be stopped by MoM, therefore, it's completely unavoidable unless you camp someone to death. So that's 10 of the 15 killers.
Of the other 5 that can avoid it, there's only Trapper, Hillbilly, Huntress, Leatherface and Plague. Trapper is a very soft counter at best, because again, you can't force people to walk into traps. Hillbilly and Leatherface can be forced to M1 and can't chainsaw all the time, and Plague cannot use her power all the time, especially since people are very insistent on just ignoring fountains and never cleansing, and Huntress often does an M2 and M1 combo because, no surprise, it's very good. As a side note, Legion technically used to be able to counter MoM by just stabbing someone to death with Frenzy, but with his rework, that is no longer possible.
So while those 5 CAN avoid MoM and do things to reduce the chances of activating since their M2s are able to deal damage and down a survivor, it's no hard counter. Survivors can completely avoid Plague's and Trapper's M2 completely, and while difficult, survivors can force a Hillbilly and Leatherface to M1 instead of M2 by sticking near windows, leaving the best counter for MoM being Huntress, but she can still be negatively impacted by it since she can be forced to melee in certain loops, and likes doing a M2 and M1 combo at close range.
So I can't seem to quote directly on my Microsoft Edge for some reason, so I'm just doing this, but basically you're saying that direct killer powers, not PERKS should hard counter MoM. That doesn't sound right. Why should a perk, that takes up a perk slot, be hard countered by every, or even most killers' BASE POWERS? That logic just doesn't sound right. I'm fine with MoM being required to have safe unhooks, or take hits from other players, but I don't feel like killers should just automatically counter a perk that a survivor takes just by existing, and HURRI_KAIN established that quite a few killers do have ways of dealing with MoM.
I agree, MoM takes no skill, DH takes skill and timing, but DH is MUCH more versatile, has no prerequsites, no penalties, except 40 second exhaustion, and can save in more ways. I have very few perks unlocked on my killers, because I like to tier III survivors, but I should probably just be a killer main with all these advantages.
TBF Dead Hard does require you to be injured, so it does have a prerequisite, but yeah, Dead Hard is a really good perk.
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Well, then old DS was a one time DH aswell. Honestly, break it down for yourself to the absolut basic.
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Trapper - trapping someone is situational and almost 100% a mess up by the survivor. How many survivors do Trapper mains trap in average? 2-3, sometimes 5 at best
Billy - yeah, but Survivors will force you to M1 by windows and pallets. So Billy is not a 100% counter and up to the survivor getting exposed.
Nurse - she doesn't counter it. She tries again
Myers - tier 3 not always possible, rare addons, spine chill.
Getting lazy to continue cuz someone who thinks cannibals can use his m2 all time has no clue about playing killer.
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I've never played Cannibal, one of the few killers I haven't unlocked. Nurse is such a strong killer, MoM means nothing to her. I've never had trouble getting tier 3 with Myers. If you use the ones that make it take forever to get tier III who's fault is that?
I don't approve of the last DS nerf, it made the perk useless. It's not a perk I run often either. But now it's trash.
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The current DS is still extremely strong and at the very least A tier. Its previous version was completely broken, that isn't even debatable.
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@HURRI_KAIN Actually Spirit's only attack is her M1. Same with hag.
The out of phase/teleport hits count as M1 for the purposes of MoM. Same with Nurse teleports. There was a bug that made these not work, but it's fixed now.
So that makes this list:
Counters (Can kill survivors in under 4 M1 hits without the use of specific perk/addons/ect):
Huntress
Hillbilly
Leatherface
Myers
Legion
Plague
Trapper
Does not counter (without addons, perks or a mori they have to deal with MoM):
Hag
Spirit
Nurse
Doc
Pig
Freddy
Wraith
Clown
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The main problem with MoM is it had no counter play against M1 killers, younwere guaranteed to have it activated unless they hard camped on the first hook.
While I don't agree with how they are reworking I can see why a change was needed.
I can't see it being used much, as why would anyone use MoM unless you are in a swf? you lose emblem points if they can't hook someone and save them.
At least WGLF gives you something for taking a hit while blocking so it's worth it in the end like an either or scenario.
Why would a solo survivor block three times just to get another heal state when you are giving away three of them?
I can sort of see it from the point of view that it makes people want to heal but those who don't will probably just drop the perk.
Its a very strange perk change tbh and I am struggling to see how when someone came up with this idea the others agreed.
I wish they mad wit another anti tunnel perk with a timer which can be used instead of DS as it's different enough in mechanics to be an alternative.
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So, since my Microsoft Edge just refreshes the page every time I click the quote button, I suppose I'll just have to reply by way of referring to messages. So here goes:
To Sairek, why should KILLERS SPECIFICALLY counter perks? Just because some killers DO counter this perk, does not mean they SHOULD counter perks. As far as I know, perks should counter perks depending on how it's done, but nothing should counter a perk with no way around it. In addition, if all killers COULD avoid it, why would it even be used? You wouldn't even need a specific perk to avoid it. Imagine if, for example, NOED worked on every survivor except Nea, just because. This is the logic you're using right now. If anything, I think it should count powers as well, though maybe not to a 1-1 comparison. Perhaps 2 hits for 1 hit down abilities instead of 3, EXCLUDING exposed effects. It's a perk, it's meant to soak damage.
To HURRI_KAIN, the only thing I have to say is that in one situation, you mention Dead Hard has no prerequisites, but it DOES require you to be injured to use it, which is undeniably a prerequisite.
To Devs that may be reading: It's called Mettle of Man, so I don't understand the need for a prerequisite of altruistic actions. I would think it would mean you'd naturally be tanky. Also I do have to say that the best way to nerf it without changing it's intention of being tankier would to make it go off sooner. Why not just make it so that it takes 3 hits to put you into dying state the first time(2 hits for 1 hit powers, excluding the exposed effect), after which your aura is always revealed to the killer outside of 12/14/16 meters?
Post edited by Atrushan88 on1 -
It's isn't a 1 to 1 comparison and there are some in the killer community who regard DH as "unfair" or "cheating." What are they changing MoM to btw? EDIT: Just saw the change. MoM needs a change, I don't think protection hits is a good idea. Killers don't like people body blocking the hook and that will just encourage it.
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agreed. It's along the lines of what they should do (changing the condition rather than the effect) but that specific requirement doesn't sound good.
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It's balanced?
DH has counterplay. Exhaustion perks in general are overused and potentially overpowered, but DH is only the third best out of all of them.
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You can screw up or bait a dead hard, show me how you screw up or bait MoM.
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@HURRI_KAIN You think the new DS is bad?! The problem here is clearly you only consider a perk good and balance if it's S-Tier.
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MoM is not like DH. MoM is more comparable to an insta-heal that you use mid-chase (+ sprint effect). And who would think it is balanced to deal with several insta-heals in one match?
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Dead Hard: I got hit in a chase, but if I either time it right or place myself near a pallet, I am given the opportunity to avoid my next hit and potentially find a loop or safe area before the Killer recovers from his swing. The dash is very short, though, and the Killer might know I have it, so I have to be careful not to miscalculate it, get baited, or otherwise screw it up.
Mettle of Man: I died over and over and over again, being constantly beaten by the Killer, so to make up for it, the next time I should go down because, you know, the Killer bloody won that chase, I'm just going to take an extra hit—successful attack cooldown, speed boost, the works—and there's nothing the Killer can do.
"Mettle of Man is a one-time DH"
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Legion's entire class ruined countless peoples dbd experience for -half a year- till their long overdue nerf landed.
Ash is out a little over a month before the hordes of Killer fanboi's /cry their corrosive radioactive, acid infused tears of necrotic rage cancer enduing misery to get Ash's one good perk nerfed into hyper situational dusty shelf extinction.
Yeah.
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An overpowered Perk that is completely uncounterable, unfun as all hell to play against, rewards repeated failure, and is so strong that it can single-handedly win the game if the Survivor knows how to loop: *Exists*
Survivors: I sleep
A low-tier, garbage Killer whose only advantage in anything ever is guaranteeing a chase is won in like 30 to 45 seconds: *Exists*
Survivors: REAL #########
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Ash has some stats for you TC, stop relying on perks to cover your mistakes.
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legion was never overpowered he was always the worst killer in the game
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Love it lol
Aaanyways. M2 Killers render MoM completely useless as it is. Once the nerf lands there'll be no reason to take it as it will become even more situational so I'll be going back to Alert / Spine Chill / Urban Evasion / Quick 'n Quiet for ultra stealth immersion build. Well done Killers, you brought this on yourselves lol
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I think the main reason people complain about MoM is not for the perk itself, but because it can be stacked with things such as sprint perks, Adrenaline and sometimes even DS (I've seen people willingly getting downed again just to use it), but unlike those things MoM's doesn't require the survivor to do something to earn it, so stacking it is very easy and straightforward.
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As I said earlier, if you're M1 with Spirit you're playing her wrong. She gets grabs from survivors interacting with totems/gens etc. That's an insta down, that's how you play spirit. Nurse is so fast one more hit means nothing to a good nurse killer. As far as the rest of your list, It's very similar to my list, and they do have options to counter it. It also is situational, in that if you've taken 3 hits, you should've been hooked at least once. That changes the ballgame completely. One or two hooks is often all you get, due to potato survivor teams. As said earlier, all killers base powers shouldn't counter perks, or why would anyone use them?
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I'm currently playing deliverance, adrenaline, DS and dead hard and still run the killer for minutes and can make a complete joke out of the killer, especially basic M1 killers. Just because MoM is gone doesn't mean u can't dominate a killer with aggressive playstyle. And well, if YOU can't you should git gud like everyone else before the MoM release.
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MoM rewards for failure and this perk cannot be countered at all. Even with hillbilly or huntress you don't have always option to use m2 attack. But i guess you already knew that it cannot be countered.. the rework is welcomed
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I 100% agree with you. I want to see statistics that show me that MoM is a problem. And don't tell me they aren't available. I bet if we compared them to something say.. NOED numbers you'd laugh your ass off.
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Wait wait wait... getting hit by a killer by design is failure? LOL.. nice one bro. When's the last time you took a look at a MAJORITY of the maps with nothing but deadzones and nowhere to go without any pallets? Oh wait you probably only play killer.
I don't see a problem with taking a hit, escaping the killer to get healed by a teamate. Then hit again and do it again (or get hooked) to be granted an extra hit. (JUST ONE) very situational hit that needs to last t he entire game to even be useful. The proposed change is an absolute joke and the killer can DECIDE if he wants to even hit you in that situation or avoid you and continue tunneling the other person. Protection LUL
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Don't you know? Killer is the only one allowed to have strategy. lol
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It's much more then DH, Deadhard will give you slight distance and you have to time it right for when the killer swings. This gives counterplay to the perk.
MoM on the other hand, as it is now is automatic on a moment when you should be going down giving you an instaheal, a speed burst (much more then DH) and slows the killer down to wipe their weapon, all this combines with no counterplay and the fact that it can be stacked with perks like DH or other second chance perks and you see the problem?
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The way I see it is like what happened with old DS, survivors will stop relying on X perk and will improve their gameplay.
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You are right, as as the survivor skill cap increases, killers will have more trouble with survivors and complain all the more.
@Bongbingbing MoM doesn't stop insta downs, of which there are many perks and abilities and addons to give this to killers. Honestly, as long as killers can Mori after one hook, or mori with no hooks, looking at you Myers, then they can't complain about a one time DH. Yes MoM requires no skill, DH requires skill, I've said this from the start. Most killer perks require no skill. BBQ, no skill, Nurse's no skill, haunted ground, no skill, hex ruin, no skill. The most mobile killers dominate, because almost no killer perks require any skill.
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The thing about the perks you mentioned is they do have counterplay, yes they don't take skill from the killers side but they can be negated by survivors skill and knowledge.
What was the counter play to MoM? How would the Wraith, trapper, pig etc stop the survivor from being able to use it with knowledge or skill?
Again I think they have the rework idea for it is wrong and makes the perk pretty much trash but there is no denying it did need a change as it was a very obnoxious perk and with most killers it's activation was guaranteed with no skill needed to use it.
Now if you sont agree with how they plan to change it do you have any feedback on what you beleive would be a better chance to it so it has some counter play?
I gave my suggestion as a DS alternative anti tunnelling perk for what it's worth as I beleive it would be in a better spot for both sides and be more worthwhile to use for solo and swf alike.
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Wraith, Pig, clown, would struggle with MoM more than other killers, but that's situational, survivors don't know which killer they're going against. Flashlights are very strong vs hag, but noone's complaining about that.
Even though Wraith/Pig/Clown/Freddy would have to go through the one extra hit with MoM, they still have their own advantages, Wraith has a fast hit out of cloaking, easily can get one hit at the start of a chase. Just rinse repeat. Pig has RBT, and while I don't think it's smart how most Pigs tunnel the person they just trapped, that is a definate way to counter MoM. Clown has it's own issues and is a bit buggy, we shouldn't be nerfing perks based off the lowest denominator. Freddy is getting a rework, so can't say much about him until we know what he's going to be. Trapper, can corral the survivors into traps which counter MoM. Make your choice, haunted ground, devour hope, NOED, or any others that give exposed status can be used on any killer and negates MoM. Moris also negate MoM, and are on ALL killers.
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It's easier to vote down than to give substantive counterargument.
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There are few killers it didn't work with that was the issue with it, it also affected the weaker killer more who already have trouble with time management so to add an extra life state can mean another gen or more can be done, multiply that by four survivors and you see the issue.
Much like the original DS was a problem MoM was in the same vain.
All of the perks you mentioned have counter play by destroying totems or waiting for a timer to run out by hiding, now tell me the counter play to MoM when these have all been destroyed, you talk about situational but each one of the perks activation is highly situational and none of these need a perk to do this.
The trapper has an issue with trap size hit box atm as half the time the survivirs can run practically ovver them and with DH you can go right over one everytime it's active.
There is also a difference between a perk and an item which can run out or be removed with Franklin's for example, a toolbox can destroy the trappers power but it's very rare it happens and flashlights have been nerfed over the years and are only good in the right person's hands and on one killers power.
Situational things are good but when something negates most of the killers from getting a hit with no skill needed don't you think that is a problem?
Clown, trapper, Wraith, pig, nurse, hag, legion, Freddy, ew1 Myers, it's never going to go down well considering it hurts the weaker killers more as they cant give the same pressure as the stronger ones to make up for it.
I don't like the proposed change I already stated that but i do believe something needs to be done to the perk to balance it out and add some counter play.
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It's so situational and helps more with tunneling which is probably why killers get frustrated. That being said it doesn't work in a lot of instances like Billy's Chainsaw or Leatherface or Michael in T3 etc so changing it makes the perk useless which might be what the actual driver is...
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And Decisive strike ruined countless experiences for over 2 years before it was finally changed, but sure make this about killer vs survivor like a typical main who only plays one side.
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You have two pages of counterarguments.
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MoM is more a kin to Borrowed Time than DH or DS for me. Which is what feels irritating to deal with, because with DH a survivor still has to make the active choice of activating it at the right moment. Even then most of the time it just extends the game to one more pallet loop if the killer manages to wait for the survivor to activate it at the wrong time.
MoM can extend a chase way longer than DH, since it has a more powerful speedboost attached to it.
DS and BT are there to punish certain unfavorable game tactics by killers. Also even then the survivor still has requirements to activate it and the killer has options on if they'd like to pursue their targets or change it up by "not being toxic" towards the survivors.
Mom has the benefit of some the perks it gets compared to without any effort put into on the survivor part to activate it or options for the killer to properly deal with the perk, with its only real downside being that it is a one time use perk.
I do hope that *Perform 3 Protection hits* are its requirements, that sounds way to harsh. Two safe unhooks would be way nicer, since I liked that about old BT.
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Honestly if the perk stayed the same but started a a 10-15 second old BT style timer I’d be fine with it.
I CRINGE at the thought of how many games im going to see get through away as a solo survivor by some dumbass ash/David who wants his wglf stacks if this proposed change goes through. Solo is awful enough right now at 5 and below
just allow m1 killers score events ie: dream demon, phantasm attack, surprise attack, bonus attack (doc), spirit teleport to not get give a stack
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Actually, people waited 4.5 months for the legion changes which both killers and survivors wanted to see.
The MoM changes aren't even final and is just a proposal, rather than be a hypocrite and whine about how they want to look at the perk, why not just propose a better way to change it to be better for both sides? As it stands, MoM is unfun and has no valid counterplay when used against most killers along with being incredibly easy to achieve by failing which is problematic design.
Trapper - Can be countered by disarming traps, having eyes, disarm tech (while in the disarm interaction the trap can no longer trap people allowing teammates to pass over it)
Hillbilly - Can be forced to M1 in some scenarios.
Nurse - She does not counter MoM, she is simply just so insanely powerful that she manages. She is in need of at least getting addon changes anyways.
Myers - Not guaranteed, the hits still count as stacks and wasting your power on just one guy is silly. Your counter does not keep multiple people running MoM in mind.
Huntress - Alright, this is actually valid. However, most maps are very bad for her.
Cannibal - His chainsaw is awful and will rarely get any use against competent survivors.
Clown - Balance should not be based on addons, the pinky finger is an ultra rare addon you won't always have and it's stupid to tell people to use unfun addons to counter a stupid perk. Also keep in mind that bottles are way harder to get direct hits with than hatchets.
Spirit - Once again, balance should not be based on addons. Prayer beads is a stupid addon that is incredibly unfun for survivors. The point is that the game should be fun, encouraging people to run unfun addons to deal with your unfun perk is not valid because then nobody has fun. The whole point of a game is to have fun.
Plague - If you never cleanse, she never gets her corrupt purge. Like Billy, she can be forced to M1 in some scenarios or waste an incredible amount of time with her vile purge on the other hand.
Pig - Her only method of handling MoM is ambush attacks which are only viable at specific loops, a lot of the time using your ambush attack is not a very good idea.
Hag - I see you've already acknowledged she doesn't have a built in counter.
Doctor - Same thing as the above.
Freddy - Once again, same as the above.
Legion - You forgot legion actually, they are the only other killer that can somewhat deal with MoM in some cases due to deep wounds & MoM not stacking together however it's still possible to have the perk activate due to an extensive cooldown that gets 50% of the cooldown reset on each regular attack.
Wraith - Has no way to counter MoM.
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you might be less frustrated with the change if you remember the game is 1v4, not 1v1. Lets say that a successful MoM usage buys you 30 seconds. It can absolutely be more, but for the sake of trying to average things out, we'll call it 2 more loops or a pallet or what have you. All 4 survivors use it? we're at 2 minutes. Games can currently end in 5 minutes, and generally take no more than 10 if the killer doesn't get kills and get momentum rolling.
now keep in mind that 2 minutes? its literally just the time bought by the 4 people running the perk. not even any chases leading up to its usage. not any other second chance perks that stack with it. not BT, not adrenaline, just literal "free time."
If you think 30 seconds is a high number btw, then the problem is a lot less with the perk, and your reliance on it. People have been (and continue to) run killers at all ranks for multiple gens consistently with or without this perk.
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Prayer beads is not required for Spirit to grab, has she been changed again? You only hear her sound if you were outside of TR when she started, right? Has this been changed? She's possibly the strongest killer in the game, if played correctly.
Cannibal - Apparently i'm not a competent survivor I still get downed by LF now and again.
Hillbilly - Just because they "can" M1, doesn't mean they don't have a counter to MoM.
Response to Trapper ^^ There are counters to each killer, that's why legion was nerfed so hard, people were tired of no counter. There are counters to MoM, and it's just sad they're wanting to nerf something so balanced, and so new.
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