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The Nightmare Rework Feedback
Hello! First off, I’d like to say thank you for allowing The Nightmare to attack survivors without the use of a primary ability. This alone will certainly increase his overall effectiveness, especially because there doesn’t seem to be a major slowdown on Nightmare for initiating a chase.
For this thread, I’m going to assume the progress penalty when Survivors are in the Dream World has been scrapped in favor of his new 2/3 abilities, along with The Nightmare’s aura-reading for Survivors who are Asleep. I also believe that it is important to address the core issues of Pre-Rework Nightmare to correctly judge how these changes will positively/negatively affect The Nightmare’s effectiveness and counter-play to create a fair experience against Survivors. However, please keep in mind that most of my information is coming straight from previous forums about Pre-Rework Nightmare’s effectiveness, as I have little experience playing The Nightmare (and Killers, in general).
From what I’ve gathered from these posts, it seems like the core problems with The Nightmare were:
- The Nightmare’s ability is not fun to play with due to Failed Skill Checks rewarding the Survivors.
- The Nightmare’s ability is not fun to play against due to how it makes a Survivor feel like their progress on Objectives is minimal.
- His counter-play completely negated his ability to create some sort of suspenseful situation. For example, even though The Hag’s Blackened Catalysts can be destroyed with a Flashlight, the indicator that a trap has been broken still alerts her to the Survivor’s location. When Survivors Wake Up, The Nightmare is unable to attack them until the standard 7-Second Dream Transition finishes.
With each proposed power, I will keep these three core principles in mind, along with adding my own thoughts on its overall effectiveness. Since no build has yet been released for The Nightmare’s Rework, my suggestions may be too powerful for either the Killer or Survivor. If there are any specific sections you want to provide feedback on, please do so!
Passive Ability - Micro Sleep
Micro Sleep allows The Nightmare to passively put Survivors into the Asleep state through what seems to be either his normal terror radius or just a set time across the map. While Awake, Survivors can only see Freddy when he is a certain distance away from them. He is invisible (not sure if this affects Aura-Reading or not) at a far distance, blinks in and out of the Survivor’s viewpoint when he approaches their location, and becomes completely visible if nearby them. I feel like this change depends on the Survivor’s situational awareness for where he will likely travel next if he is walking, which provides a nice amount of counter-play. At some point in The Trial, the Survivors will begin to fall asleep at a slow rate. They can still Wake Up through any Failed Skill Check, an interaction with an Awake Survivor, or a Nightmare-exclusive structure on the map. When Asleep, they can be affected by The Nightmare’s other abilities, and can see The Nightmare at any distance. This includes his Terror Radius being replaced with the NoES Lullaby, and a visual effect across the map that will be more tolerable for players compared to the current effect.
At first, this sounds like a direct contradiction to Argument One. Not only do Failed Skill Checks still reward Survivors, but it now includes all Failed Skill Checks (such as sabotaging hooks). However, I feel like the primary frustration with this point was because The Nightmare was completely ineffective when a Survivor was Awake. He was essentially an M1 Killer without the ability to use M1 against them. Now that The Nightmare can attack Survivors outside of the Dream World, I feel like this general complaint will no longer apply to him. Even though The Trapper’s Bear Traps can be disabled by any survivor, they can make chases end much faster for him with a confirmed hook if left unarmed. I believe this rework will create a similar effect, as The Nightmare will be dangerous without his power, but it can immensely benefit him if a Survivor stays asleep.
Micro Sleep also fixes Argument Two, as Survivors are no longer penalised in their progress. Even though there are ways to Wake Up on their own, willingly failing a Generator Skill Check may make them feel like they are still sabotaging their team by improving their own Status Effect. With this change alone, they don’t have to willingly set back their team (even if it’s just a short amount of time) to Wake Up due to the Nightmare-exclusive structures. Even if they choose to remain Asleep for the time being because The Nightmare is patrolling the nearby area, they won’t be penalised through an aura reveal or lack of Generator progress unless their own actions lead to a hit, down, or hook. This change really rewards counter-play over anything else. My only concern would be that it could be slightly Survivor-sided due to The Nightmare’s abilities no longer being effective against Awake Survivors, but that just really comes down to how many structures appear on the map.
Dream Demon: Ability 1.A - Dream Pallets
In both iterations of The Nightmare’s first ability, they reward the Killer tricking Survivors into believing they are safe in a chase until they run into The Nightmare’s obstacle. They may also make The Nightmare’s Perk “Fire Up” an effective choice compared to “Brutal Strength”.
In this potential choice, The Nightmare can manifest a fake pallet in specific locations to trick Survivors into believing they are around a safe loop to escape the Killer’s grasp. This is similar to The Doctor’s Illusionary Pallets through his Order or Iridescent King add-ons. This would promote strategic planning on The Nightmare’s end to ensure that they can be as effective as possible, and to trap Survivors in a dangerous situation. However, Survivors can also predict areas that The Nightmare is most likely to place these Dream Pallets, such as the Killer Shack if the original Pallet has been broken. Even though these Dream Pallets do little aside from creating a small visual effect when a Survivor attempts to use one, I believe it is an incredible choice for a strategic, cunning Killer, whether it be The Nightmare or a future Killer. If it absolutely needed a buff, maybe reveal the Survivor’s aura for a few seconds? I just feel like that as long as these are permanent until a Survivor attempts to use them along with The Nightmare being able to create multiple Dream Pallets, this ability is pretty good.
Dream Demon: Ability 1.B - Dream Snare
In preparation for a chase, The Nightmare can place down a trap for about two seconds. If a Survivor steps on the trap, they are slowed for the trap’s duration and short amount of time afterwards. This essentially is like The Clown’s ability, but instead stationary. Similar to Dream Pallets, the Dream Snare lures the survivor into a false sense of security.
To me, it sounds like it would have to reveal Survivor’s auras who step in the trap to be useful outside of a chase. Unlike the Dream Pallets, the Dream Snare can activate just by a Survivor walking around. A Dream Pallet seems to require an action to activate, essentially confirming that it will be used in a chase. Unless the Dream Snare makes a Survivor incredibly slow, I can’t see it being more useful than the Dream Pallets. Even then, that probably wouldn’t feel like there was any meaningful counter-play in the potential chase as a Survivor.
Dream Demon: Ability 2 - Generator Teleport
The name kinda speaks for itself. After 5 seconds, The Nightmare can teleport to a chosen Generator. A visual effect of blood rising out of the Generator plays as he teleports.
This is great. This gives a nearly-global map presence to a killer with no movement abilities. It gives a pretty noticeable message to Survivors to stop fixing the Generator before he appears. A potential chase ambush is unlikely, but can help The Nightmare continue the chase against a Survivor with Sprint Burst or Balanced Landing. I love it. The only potential problem I see is the lengthy amount of time it takes, but that will probably be affected by new add-ons. It’s great.
Overall
On paper, The Nightmare’s Rework sounds like it adds more fun to both the Killer and the Survivors. The counter-play is certainly prominent, so Survivors won’t feel like they were unfairly downed (aside from ping hitboxes) and Killers won’t feel cheated out of a hook. It adds mobility to The Nightmare, which seems more important than ever for killers now. Survivors won’t have to slightly sabotage their Objectives to Wake Up due to the new structures. I personally believe that this will put The Nightmare in a relatively balanced area, where not have Survivors and Killers have a fair share of completing their objectives. I think the team has done a great job on the rework.
Of course, we cannot be completely sure until the PTB releases. I certainly like what I’m hearing, though. If anyone wants to comment on one of my points or just how they feel about the rework, feel free to do so!
Comments
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Good stuff @Dahtin
I'm looking forward to:
- Putting Dream Snares down in infinites
- Denying pallet trolls with Dream Pallet traps
- Teleporting ahead of the Survivor I'm chasing to the generator they're running to, cutting them off and downing them
- Teleporting across the zone the instant the match starts to the farthest gen the Survivor is likely to be heading towards
- Teleporting directly to the generator a Survivor is working on once I've hooked a Survivor and BBQC procs
My only question about these abilities are three fold:
- How long does it take to cast?
- Do you slow down while casting, if so how much?
- How long does it take to re-charge the ability to cast
But yeah good stuff, once the thread I created a paraphrasing everything said about Freddy in the interview re-appears from the dream world after having been taken off the forums to be reviewed by the devs (because I edited it too often? why is that a bad thing I wonder?) I'll link it to you @Dahtin to bounce a few ideas off you)
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One thing I'm concerned about is, nowhere in the interview did it say what's happening with Freddie's aura reading ability. I'm wondering if it's being removed entirely.
lawl. I had another post but I edited it too many times and it was removed for review by the forum staff. I expect it to return in 5 to 9 working days. Pitty, it was more in depth than this post.
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Freddy’s aura-reading would certainly create a greater incentive to keep Survivors Asleep instead of only hoping you can begin a chase with an Asleep Survivor. It could guarantee that he can use all of his abilities in a chase instead of being an M1 Killer. Although I believe it would be best if The Nightmare kept his aura-reading ability, I’m not quite sure how powerful it would be combined with his new powers in execution. After all, the ways to Wake Up have been increased (requiring a new structure, nonetheless). This shows me that being Asleep already puts Survivors at a dramatic disadvantage. Due to the relative vagueness about what will be carried over from Pre-Rework Nightmare, there is no definitive way to say whether this was carried over or not. Looking through the clips shown on the livestream, I can’t quite find an answer to confirm.
I would certainly hope that it’s carried over, as it puts even more pressure on the Survivors to Wake Up. However, it may have proven to be too powerful in the Dev Build. There’s just not enough information to confirm or deny.
Slightly Off-Topic, but I realised that my use of the phrase Wake Up may be interpreted as Quentin’s Perk “Wake Up”. Unless stated otherwise, I’m using Wake Up to refer to Survivors being outside of the Dream World. I’ll try to write out all Perk names in quotation marks.
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I'll wait and see for the ptb before I judge him.
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