Official Dead By Daylight tournament rule set [by THESUICIDEFOX]
INTRO
Keeping it short... I ran competitive video game tournaments for about 10 years. Multiple genres and games. Rule sets were sort of my thing.
While I can respect the tournaments hosts out there for their hard work hosting DBD events, I have to be honest and say that ALL OF YOUR RULES ABSOLUTELY SUCK. Sorry this is just from someone that has seen what sucky rule sets do to games. Some of you have good ideas here and there, but for the most part the rules would just not work in a real competitive setting.
I wanted to propose a universal rule set for DBD. I spent a LOT of time refining this rule set. I did not write this overnight, this took months. @Peanits @not_Queen I hope you guys see this because this is what you should promote to the community as official tournament rules. They are fair to both survivors and killers, allow for a good meta to develop, would be entertaining for spectators, and showcase the game at the highest skill level possible.
I can explain absolutely every rule in detail, but I will not do that here. If you have a question feel free to ask and I will explain how it all works.
Lastly, no I am not hosting a tournament. This was just something I decided to do for the community.
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GENERAL RULES
-101- ALL RULES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE AT THE DISCRETION OF TOURNAMENT OFFICIALS. ANY RULE MAY BE ENFORCED RETRO-ACTIVELY. ALL TOURNAMENT OFFICIAL RULINGS ARE FINAL.
-102- Tournament Officials may stream a match from spectator with a 5 minute delay. Players may stream their own game play at their own risk.
-103- Players must be respectful to other participants and tournament officials. Trash talking is permitted, HOWEVER any trash talking that includes obscene, racist, sexist, threatening, or otherwise offensive language is prohibited. Players that engage in prohibited trash talk will first be given a warning. Players that continue to engage in prohibited trash talk will have their teams disqualified from the tournament. This rule is enforced at the discretion of tournament officials. Please consult tournament officials for words or phrases that may be considered prohibited trash talk.
-104- Any player caught cheating (via mods/hacks/network manipulation/etc.) or stream sniping will have their team disqualified and immediately banned from all future events. Players that have a history of competing in events with previously banned players will be banned if another teammate is caught cheating/stream sniping.
-105- Any player that goes outside the normal boundaries of the map will have their team disqualified from the tournament.
-106- Teams consist of four players with one player designated as team captain. All four players will play as surivor against the opposing team's killer. One of the four players will play as killer against the opposing team's survivors.
-107- All character and map selection is done randomly per round by tournament officials. Players must use default cosmetics for all characters. Teams can agree to re-roll selections once per round.
-108- The tournament will be single elimination format.
-109- Teams will be seeded randomly for the first bracket of the tournament and assigned to start as survivors or killer by tournament officials. After the first bracket is complete, each bracket will be seeded based on the results of the previous bracket. The team with the higher seed can choose whether to play as a killer or survivors in the first trial of the round.
-110- For each trial, the killer player will host the lobby and have at least one tournament official enter as a spectator. Tournament Officials will communicate only with the killer player's team captain to end trials when deemed necessary. Survivor players should treat every moment of every trial as an official tournament match until the final results screen has occurred.
-111- Offerings are enabled. See SURVIVOR or KILLER rules for more details.
-112- Official maps: Groaning Storehouse, Shelter Woods, Gas Heaven, Wretched Shop, Wreckers' Yard, Fractured Cowshed, Rancid Abattoir, Father Campbell's Chapel.
-113- Once the lobby is full, players have 5 minutes to equip their builds and 'ready up' for the trial. Teams will be given a 30 second warning to 'ready up'. Teams that break this rule will be given PENALTY time to either ESCAPE or KILL times.
-114- If a disconnect happens within the first 30 seconds of a trial, before a survivor is injured, and before a Hex totem is cleansed, the trial will be reset. If a disconnect happens after the first 30 seconds of a trial, after a survivor is injured, or after a Hex totem is cleansed, the game will continue without that player. Killers that disconnect after this point will forfeit the round.
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TIMER RULES
-201- Official times will be in recorded in minutes and seconds (MM:SS).
-202- The TRIAL timer starts once the load screen ends. The TRIAL timer stops once the final survivor escapes or dies. TRIAL time limit is 30 minutes.
-203- A survivor team's ESCAPE time includes the team's combined TRIAL, PENALTY, and BOUNTY times.
-204- The KILL timer starts when the TRIAL timer starts. The KILL timer stops when the last survivor dies, reaches stage 2 of sacrifice, or is put on a third hook. All 'Olly Olly Oxen Free' time will be removed from KILL time. KILL time will incur PENALTY time for 'Lobby Delay'.
-205- An 'Olly Olly Oxen Free' timer begins when all remaining survivors are in injured or healthy state, a generator has not been repaired for 1 minute, and a survivor has not been found for 1 minute. An 'Olly Olly Oxen Free' timer ends when a survivor is found by the killer, steps in a Bear Trap, or a generator is repaired for at least 8 consecutive seconds. 'Olly Olly Oxen Free' time limit is 5 minutes.
-206- The survivor team with the lowest ESCAPE TIME will be declared the winner. If ESCAPE times are tied, the survivor team with most escapes will be declared the winner. If only one trial had no survivors escape, the survivor team that escaped will be declared the winner.
-207- If all survivors die in both trials, the killer team with the lowest KILL time will be declared the winner.
-208- If ESCAPE times and number of escapes are tied, or KILL times are tied, the team with the least PENALTY time will be declared the winner. If PENALTY time is tied, the team with the most BOUNTY time will be declared the winner. If BOUNTY time is tied, the team with highest Bloodpoint total between survivors and killer will be declared the winner. If Bloodpoint totals are tied, the round will be replayed with a selection re-roll.
-209- If a time limit is reached all remaining survivors will be declared dead by bleed-out and all BOUNTY time will be VOID. If a time limit is reached and all survivors died in both trials, the survivor team that completed the most generators will be declared the winner. If both survivor teams completed the same number of generators, the the team with highest Bloodpoint total for survivors only will be declared the winner. If Bloodpoint totals are tied, the round will be replayed with a selection re-roll.
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SURVIVOR RULES
-301- Survivor teams are allowed to use any communication method they wish.
-302- Survivor selection will be limited to four characters. Each player must choose a different character. If a player does not own a survivor character, the opposing team's killer will choose the survivor player's character.
-303- All survivor players must use at least one of their officially selected character's teachable perks.
-304- Only one instance of a perk is allowed per trial. The perk 'We're Gonna Live Forever' is an exception to this rule.
-305- The perk 'Object Of Obsession' is banned from use. The survivor character Lauri Strode will not be used in official character selections.
-306- Survivor teams may bring 1 Sport Flashlight.
-307- Survivor teams may offer 1 Tarnished Coin.
-308- Keys found in chests are banned from use. Survivors that use a key to open the hatch or read auras will forfeit the round.
-309- Survivor teams that have a survivor disconnect in order to give another survivor hatch will forfeit the round.
-310- Survivor teams incur PENALTY time for the following:
- >310.1< Death by bleed-out: +2 minutes
- >310.2< Death by sacrifice: +4 minutes
- >310.3< Death by mori: +6 minutes (includes Reverse Bear Trap, Tombstone, and disconnects)
- >310.4< Equip an Obsession perk: +1 minute (VOID if killer equips an Obsession perk)
- >310.5< Escape through hatch: +2 minutes
- >310.6< Delay lobby: +3 minutes (applies to KILL times)
-311- Survivor teams earn BOUNTY time for the following (all bounties VOID on disconnect):
- >311.1< Equip the perk 'No Mither': -2 minutes
- >311.2< Escape with perk 'No Mither': -2 minutes
- >311.3< Death as Obsession: -1 minute (VOID if any survivor equips an Obsession perk)
- >311.4< Escape with perk 'We're Gonna Live Forever': -1 minute
- >311.5< Escape & never hooked: -1 minute (VOID unless killer equips the perk 'Barbecue & Chilli')
- >311.6< Escape through hatch during End Game Collapse: -4 minutes
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KILLER RULES
-401- Killers are allowed to have teammates coach them during the trial. See tournament officials for proper coaching procedures.
-402- Killer selection will be limited to three characters. Opposing killers are not required to pick the same killer character.
-403- Killers may offer Dark Mist of their choice.
-404- Killers that break FORBIDDEN rules will forfeit the trial.
-405- Killers are FORBIDDEN to bodyblock survivors for more than 10 seconds. Bodyblock timer starts when the survivor points at killer.
-406- Killers are FORBIDDEN to equip the perks 'Hex: Ruin' and 'Hex: No One Escapes Death' in combination when playing any killer.
-407- Killers are FORBIDDEN to waste time when the game is effectively over. (EG; excessive slugging, mori spam, drop reset, etc.)
-408- Killers are FORBIDDEN to use more than 1 add-on.
-409- Killers are FORBIDDEN to use Ultra Rare (pink) add-ons while playing as any killer.
-410- Killers are FORBIDDEN to use Very Rare (purple) add-ons while playing as any killer. Killers playing as The Shape may forgo a perk slot to use the 'Tombstone Piece' Very Rare add-on.
-411- Killers are FORBIDDEN to use Rare (green) add-ons while playing as The Hillbilly.
-412- Killers are FORBIDDEN to use add-ons while playing as The Nurse.
-413- Killers are FORBIDDEN to close the hatch if they equip the perk 'Hex: No One Escapes Death' unless the Exit Gates have already been powered or the final survivor is the Obsession.
EDIT: Typos
Comments
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Rule “105” is dumb since you often have no control over that bug.(Rarely happens now though)
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What's the logic behind changing rules on the fly and enforcing them retroactively?
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Imo all DbD tournaments I know of were absolute garbage because it was forcing the players to much to play in certain way. Never found it appealing to participate or even watch, was boring af.
I did not read ur rules, buts it's a lot and it's probably the same: forcing certain playstyles and punishing different playstyles.
Post edited by HavelmomDaS1 on7 -
I have an answer for that one ;)
Rules can be enforced retroactively. Basically what I would do as TO is let the match continue until it's natural end, then decide later if breaking collision would have significantly changed the game. The rule is the to deter people from abusing obvious bugs, but since a TO can enforce the rule after-the-fact because 101 you can decide if someone did something on purpose or not.
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That's what you would do, but you would not be a TO. Players have no guarantee that 101 wouldn't be enforced in such a way that it invalidates the result of a trial. 101's very existence makes trials irrelevant because the results can be retroactively changed.
I'd also like to note that limiting playstyles is literally the opposite of playing the game at the highest possible skill level. People who play at the highest possible skill level don't handicap themselves with such arbitrary rules as "don't equip more than one add-on" or "don't equip this perk". They use every single tool available, combine them with their skill, and the result is the highest possible skill level.
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This is a rule I included in all my tournaments.
First you don't change a rule and enforce it retroactively. The point of the rule is to allow a TO to add or change a rule if someone finds a loophole. The retroactively part just means that a TO can let a match finish and decide after if a rule was broken to prevent false terminations of legit matches. See previous comment.
The rule is there IF YOU NEED IT, which you shouldn't 99.9999% of the time. It's for fringe cases, because sometimes things happen you didn't expect and it's easier to make a rule about it than to just pick the winner.
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You should read them then, because they actually are not forcing players to do anything. It limits the upper stupid OP things in the game and balances it out for killer v SWF but you can do anything you want on either side.
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Then that's on that TO. People will just stop playing in their tournaments if they do that. If BHVR officially sponsors a tournament, they would want people LIKE ME who have experience doing these things and wouldn't screw over players like that. It's called trust.
The point of the post is to establish a universal tournament rules. Joe Shmoe could run a tournament with whatever rules he wants, and nothing is stopping him from doing this there too. It's there to allow TO's the ability to make calls that would otherwise be impossible, even if the likelihood of a specific event happening that is not cover by rules is incredibly small you want this because something WILL eventually happen. It's to cover TO's, not to let people do whatever they want (which in theory they can do anyway), and if a TO does stuff like that they should be shamed by the community and no one will go to their events.
Trust me when I say that it's not there to screw over anyone, it's there to protect TO's, the HONEST ones.
Regarding your second point, no that's not correct. The amount of OP nonsense in this game is astounding. And you above all people aren't arguing that a killer can take on a coordinated SWF with perks? That's why there are limits, to make the game more fair, otherwise you get a very boring spectator event. If killers could mori, or survivors could stack MOM/DS/Adren/BT every game then the outcome would be VERY predictable, on top of not exactly taking a lot of skill.
But to do well as survivors when you can't share perks and have a timer takes skill. To 4k as a killer using 1 add-on that is not pink/purple is skill. These rules are competitive and fair, but you aren't limited in your strategical options. Killers can go for slug builds, game slowing, or anti-heal, or end game. Survivors can play risky with obsession perks or slow and immersed. There is a wide variety here, the only things off limits are the super powerful stuff. Not to mention, most killers builds with top add-ons are meme builds that wouldn't work in a tournament setting. Scratched Mirror Myers would NEVER do well in a tournament, even on Lery's (which isn't allowed here anyway). He just wouldn't, against good survivors working together he would get crushed. And body block Hag? No one will use that because it would be an auto-loss at this level, so the fact it cannot be used is irrelevant.
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I have a way easier way of doing this. Here's how it works.
People can use whatever perks, items, addons, offerings, etc that they want. Let people go all out, like pretty much all other competitive games do.
Two teams of 5. One Killer to each team, 4 survivors to each team. Each survivor group faces the opposite Killer.
The team that gets the overall better Emblem quality is the winner. It's simple, let's people play how they want, and uses a scoring system within the game that isn't an arbitrary made up one.
Universal rules for a tournament should simply be how the game is. This is how all fighting games are, they don't tell you that you aren't allowed to use infinite combos for instance if you happen to find one. Or doing cheap tactics such as corner pressure or projectile spamming. The thing is, my idea could also easily be applied to a team ranked mode within the game itself.
As soon as I read your "Olly olly oxen free" stuff, I was like, this is just too much. Going this deep is absolutely painful and unnecessary. Besides, this game is way too unbalanced for it to ever be competitive anyway. Until all Killers are viable at the competitive level, this game will never be able to live in a tournament. Even then, all tournaments I've ever witnessed are a disaster. This really isn't the kind of game that is meant to be eSports and that's ok. Not every game needs to have a Pro League or whatever.
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Your rules could be cheesed so hard by teams though. Let's break it down...
"People can use whatever perks, items, addons, offerings, etc that they want. Let people go all out, like pretty much all other competitive games do."
First, competitive games DO NOT allow anything goes. All the serious ones have very strict rules. I suggest you actually play in some tournaments and see this. There are EXCEPTIONS, like most fighting games are just the base game. But look at any shooter or sports game tournament and you will see that there are a lot of rules taking out the dumb stuff.
Second, if you do this killers will ALWAYS pick Omega Blink Nurse RUIN NOED pink mori. Like literally nothing else will be viable. Every survivor will pick MOM/DS/Adren and then probably some mix of BT, Deliverance, and Dead Hard. Every one will take a purple medkit with a pink needle, and every one will offer purple myst. That is going to be every game for your tournament finals. This is what we want to avoid, by limiting the super OP stuff you allow for more meta to develop. More killers become viable, more builds become viable, some survivor tactics become viable, etc.
"Two teams of 5. One Killer to each team, 4 survivors to each team. Each survivor group faces the opposite Killer."
This is how you would kill DBD esports. Spectators are a big deal, you want to make sure people are entertained by watching the game at a high level. Do you know what happens when one team has ALL the best players? They dominate the game, leading to very boring eSport scene. "Oh Team Red won again, what a surprise [confetti]". This would just let the 4 best survivors in the world team up with the best killer in the world and BOOM. Unbeatable team. Yes it's happened before. But say teams are 4 players and people have to play both sides, now you open up the door to more variety of players in the top ranks. You can't just have THE BEST on your team, at least not as easily (could still happen but if you are best killer and top 4 survivors in the world kinda earned it at that point).
"The team that gets the overall better Emblem quality is the winner. It's simple, let's people play how they want, and uses a scoring system within the game that isn't an arbitrary made up one."
This is just an awful metric to use. Besides the fact that KYF does not track Emblems, even if they did it's not a measure of skill in a truly competitive setting. We need another metric, which is why time is used. Time is the ultimate factor in this game, and the way the rules are designed is to put the burden of the win on survivors ability to best use their time. Most of the rules apply to survivors time, the only thing that doesn't is killer's time, and the burden of the win is only on the killers when BOTH get a 4k because you have to do it that way.
"As soon as I read your "Olly olly oxen free" stuff, I was like, this is just too much. "
You need the Olly Olly Oxen Free rule or else a survivor who's killer got a 4k in the previous game can just hide and stall the killers timer resulting in a guaranteed win. It's to prevent survivors from cheesing the rules, they should always be playing to escape not to stall the game. This rule does not punish survivors either, they can enact this rule to no detriment to them. It's just there to protect killers from getting cheesed through the timer rules because a survivor just hides the whole game. People WILL do this if you don't say that doing it doesn't hurt your opponent.
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the survivor and killer sections feel like a trash pile
did i read the killer part right in that killers can only put up a mist offering? but survivors can drop 4 petrified oaks
trapper just straight up isn't playable, gets 1 add on that can't be pink or purple (this probably makes a lot of killers not playable)
killers who brought NOED cant close the hatch what is the possible reasoning behind this, the killer closes the hatch and finds you before you open the exit gate, it doesn't matter if he can instant down you or not.
ruin and NOED are some how a forbidden combo what ?
if survivors are allowed to open chests why aren't all things found in said chest allowed?
are survivors allowed to bring in a key but not allowed to use that key for anything?
why does we're gonna live forever give a time bounty? because it it does nothing , then why doesn't left behind or slippery meat give a bounty?
why are killers forbidden to "waste time", kill time is their literal condition for victory? so "wasting" time is just throwing their ability to win away
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Please stop even encouraging tournaments for this game. It is way too badly balanced and far too RNG heavy to come even remotely close to having s respectable tournament. Its a silly jumbled mess, just have fun with it and take it lightly. No idea why you'd spend so much time on this.
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@holywhitetrash "did i read the killer part right in that killers can only put up a mist offering? but survivors can drop 4 petrified oaks"
What? No. Survivors can offer 1 yellow coin FOR THE WHOLE TEAM. So the offering screen will show 1 coin and 1 myst whatever the killer chooses.
"killers who brought NOED cant close the hatch what is the possible reasoning behind this, the killer closes the hatch and finds you before you open the exit gate, it doesn't matter if he can instant down you or not."
We want to avoid 4k's as much as possible because it puts the burden of the win on survivors and not killers. As such, since NOED procs when killer closes hatch it means that if killer has NOED and closes hatch, with the rest of the rules the way they are that will almost always be a 4k. So if you have NOED you can't close hatch unless gates are powered (at which point NOED is already proc'd so it doesn't matter) or if the final survivor is the obsession (to punish players that play as the obsession and give the killer the option to close it with NOED if they play their cards right and save the obsession for last).
"trapper just straight up isn't playable, gets 1 add on that can't be pink or purple (this probably makes a lot of killers not playable)"
So certain things need testing, the add-on bit is one of them. I just made a general rule and then limited Nurse and Billy a bit more to make it more fair. It might turn out that some killers should be allowed 2 add-ons, we need tournaments to happen before this exact detail can be worked out. But the way I see it, with all other rules considered, it seems most fair to limit killers to 1 add-on green or lower. It allows for variety but not OP combinations.
"ruin and NOED are some how a forbidden combo what ?"
If you let killers do this, it will be meta for pretty much every game at top 8 most likely because the combination is very powerful, specifically more so if the killer is also powerful (Nurse, Spirit). By saying you can't have both means that you don't get the auto-pick scenarios where killers just always use this exact thing and nothing else.
"are survivors allowed to bring in a key but not allowed to use that key for anything?"
No survivors can bring 1 sport flashlight (as in 1 for the team not 1 each), because if you don't allow this then flashlight saves are RNG based, which is bad for competition. So allow both teams a single flashlight so they can ALWAYS save and it becomes more fair.
And no survivors cannot bring a key. If you find a key just leave it in the chest. We don't want RNG to influence ESCAPE time or number or escapes, and keys are way too powerful to allow them to bring it.
Otherwise anything found in a chest is allowed. Just no keys.
"why does we're gonna live forever give a time bounty? because it it does nothing , then why doesn't left behind or slippery meat give a bounty?"
More perks could be added to the bounty list, but as it stands WGLF is the only perk that does literally nothing in the context of the tournament. It's just basically an empty perk slot, so putting a bounty on it and allowing all survivors to use it means you can get games where a team wants to pressure the other team's timer so they all equip WGLF. If they 4e, it takes off 4 minutes from their time, which would almost force the other team to also all equip WGLF. Left Behind is useless in general, but there will probably come a time when that gets changed, however unless they add some actual function to WGLF it will always be useless in a tournament not based on Bloodpoints.
"why are killers forbidden to "waste time", kill time is their literal condition for victory? so "wasting" time is just throwing their ability to win away"
Yes technically. If the game is looking to be a 4k then it is in their best interest to kill fast and not waste time. HOWEVER, there can be an instance where say 1 survivor has already escaped, 2 are dead, and the last is slugged. Killer could let them crawl to 1 tick then pick them up to hook adding to the survivors' ESCAPE time. Or purposely do nothing and let the Entity take them, which also adds time. This rule is in place to avoid that and force killer to just do what they are supposed to do and not try and cheese the timers.
ATTENTION EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD!
A lot of these rules are anti-cheese. The timers are the main component of the rule set, wins are best on times THEN on escapes THEN on kills THEN on tiebreaker stuff. Stuff like 405 and 407 are to stop killers from cheesing the survivor ESCAPE timer. Stuff like 205 are there so survivors can't cheese the killer's KILL timer.
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It can be done Scott. The problem is really what metric do we want to measure tournament results, and then how much of the current game do we have to limit in order for it to be balanced and skillful.
I feel like I've accomplished this with my rules, and it's honestly a tad disappointing people aren't supportive of it.
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I can appreciate you taking the time to develop this rule list. But I have one question.
Have you ever played this game on PC before? If so, how many hours? Just curious because I recall you saying that you're an Xbox player.
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I play on Xbox. But I don't see a problem with how this would work for PC. I understand the meta and I watch streamers/YT'ers that play on PC, there isn't much difference in terms of what is balanced and what is skillful.
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@thesuicidefox on your answer to time wasting in that scenario wouldn't it make more sense to just note the time the player was downed and then if the player dies use the noted time if they somehow escape use the full time? decisive strike is a thing and even if only one player can bring it the killer still has to worry about it existing and that is 60 seconds that they can't touch a downed survivor
we will have to agree to disagree on the NOED/ruin parts
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If the player has DS the TO can see this and if a killer decides to slug it's not wasting time, it's wasting DS. The rule is there to enforce at the TO's discretion. So in this case the TO can let the killer slug. BUT if the killer slugs for an extra 30 seconds, the TO can enforce the rule because now it's wasting time. This rule is there to discourage killers from attempting to cheese the timer, it's not there to limit killer actions deemed acceptable play.
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The fact there are this many rules, proves it will not work. Either make it barebones, no perks or something, or like someone above mentioned above, let everyone go full meta and judge based off emblems. If killers wanna pink mori/camp/tunnel then there emblems will reflect that negatively. You say everyone will run MoM/adrenaline/etc. but that’s what this game is. It isn’t broken at its core to have a true tournament scene. Tournaments should only be for shits and giggles.
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Also: hey you’re the guy that’s always in Boston’s streams lol
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Yes.
There are games out there with a lot of rules also. This is actually pretty straightforward... 100's are for basic tournament formats and such, 200's are the timer rules and win conditions based on timer rules, 300 is survivor rules mostly penalty/bounty times, and 400 is killer rules which mostly say the limits of playing killer and forbid specific things in specific context.
And YOU CANNOT USE EMBLEMS IN KYF. That immediately takes it off the table. Beyond that, even if you could see emblems in KYF it is actually a very poor metric when it comes to competition. TIME is the ultimate factor in this game, which is why my rules are based on time as it's the core of the gameplay.
Barebones could also work, but the problem there is that it's BORING. It's boring to play and even more boring to watch. If you want people to watch your eSport and be interested, there has to be variety. That means allowing perks and such. But since there is a lot of OP stuff you need rules in place to trim that stuff out to make it more skillful.
It's possible. You also need to keep in mind that some of the finer details would need testing in actual tournaments. It might turn out we could allow keys, or allow 2 add-ons, or that we need MORE restrictions on survivors or killers. I tried to visualize scenarios where someone could cheese a rule or do something that was completely unfair to the other side, and this is the rule set I came up with.
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u Should run some on Xbox then and see how it goes. I have my doubts, but it could be fun anyway.
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i also just wanted to chime in about how you said NOED killer’s wouldn’t be allowed to close the hatch because it gurantees a 4K. That doesn’t make any sense to me, it’s a mechanic of the game. Survivors could easily just cleanse the totem(also a core mechanic of the game). But NOED isn’t indicative of skill in anyway whatsoever, so why allow it at all?
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Because we want the burden of winning to be on survivors that means we want to limit 4k's wherever possible. As it stands, if a killer with NOED closes the hatch they will almost definitely get the 4k. It MIGHT be possible to still escape, but it will be rare. You make a killer reconsider using NOED for this reason, and as such more options become available.
NOED, Ruin and BBQ are all the top killer perks in the game, and with the way survivors are limited according to the rules it only makes sense to put some risk on these perks. Ruin is most reliable and likely to be included in every killer's build, so to say you can't use it with NOED adds risk since now survivors will KNOW you do not have a NOED. If you bring NOED, you are more limited in your options when hatch spawns. If you bring BBQ you run the risk of giving the survivors bounty time if you never get a hook on them. Outside of Ruin + NOED there are no other perk restrictions on killers, only risks for some.
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you organizes tournaments for 10 years, you say you've thought about this regulation for months, and then you make me a rule where the maps are chosen randomly? and where would the challenge be in challenging a team that only for a matter of luck happens on the most favorable map and the other team on a more difficult one? lol
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Both teams would play on the same map, and the maps are pretty much universally considered the most balanced in the game for both sides. The point here is to take out the broken maps and even the playing field. There is also no reasonable way to let players choose the map, so it makes the most sense to pick from a random selection, and as long as both trials are on the same map RNG impacts are minimized.
I did come up with an alternative idea but I think the random selection is better. Basically the other idea is to add more maps to the official list then teams take turns striking maps until only 1 is left. The problem with this is that most maps will get a strike every time. Shelter Woods is considered the most balanced map, and therefore survivors will always strike that first. Corn maps will always get strikes from killers. You end up with a situation where only like 2-3 maps ever get played. Random selection adds more variety, but limited selection keeps it fair.
Trust me, I thought long and hard about what would happen, and random map selection from a limited list where both trials use the same map is ultimately the easiest and most fair way to do it.
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Imagine wasting months making this and literally no one is happy with it.
#FeelsLikeLegionRelease
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IKR? Not sure why I bother. Scott said the game wouldn't work, it definitely will. What would make it not work is the community and the way they react to things.
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Nothing against your rules. Im just saying making rules for a game like this is pointless. You could have the best rules in the world and the simple RNG layout of a map can completely negate any fairness, making it a joke. It would be like having a MOBA tournament with a chance that your towers dont spawn.
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I agree to an extent, but we have enough control over the starting parameters to minimize or nullify RNG.
That's why we have a limited selection of relatively balanced maps that both trials of the round are played on. That's why we have rules against the use of keys because it's basically RNG that gives an instant win to one side. That's why we limit the character selection. Limit it enough and it can add variety to the game without negatively impacting results.
Poker is random but there is still balance in the game and it can still be played competitively, and it's BECAUSE of the rules. So I don't see why we couldn't do it here.
And full disclosure, I KNOW that my rules need improvement. I'm not sitting here saying everything is perfect, because it needs testing. Most communities develop tournament rules over time. They naturally progress from just using the random nonsense in a tournament setting and eventually rules get made and changed until you have a very solid set of rules that make the game work competitively.
DBD needs a bit of a booster to get to that point, because no one runs tournaments (or at least, there's no consistency to it). Hence why I wanted to make this post, I'm dumping my tournament experience into a rule set for a game that has potential, especially if we have more content and positive changes in the future.
One reason I didn't release this like 2 months ago was because of hatch. It's just very difficult to come up with a fair way to resolve hatch standoff. I originally had a rule that was basically Olly Olly Oxen Free but for hatch, and it wasn't ideal at all. OOOF isn't ideal at all, but as I point out above you need a rule like this to deter survivors cheesing the timers. But if we get something that prevents survivors from just hiding for long periods of time we don't need the OOOF rule either.
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The fact that you're already blaming the community for the hypothetical failure of your idea is a red flag. You're not even willing to consider the possibility that your idea is just bad. It doesn't matter how much effort you put into it, some ideas are just bad, period.
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I would lose every match because of "407", I just can't help myself ;-) I also like to continuosly hit the last hooked survivor, especially with Freddy and frenzied Legion :-D
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This is hilariously bad and a lot of your rules are arbitrary and unnecessary based on your personal opinions of what's OP and whats not. You were so confident in suggesting the Devs use these officially that I was expecting something at least remotely reasonable but clearly I expected too much.
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This
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Suggest I actually play in tournaments? What exceptions are there? Halo 5 tournaments don't disallow anything. There are official made playlists that have a wide selection of maps, and nearly every weapon is eventually represented on one of the maps, even if no one decides to use it. Overwatch pro league is literally just the game. Rainbow Six Siege, nothing is disallowed in pro matches as far as operators, weapons, or gadget use. Quake literally has everything and allows all tactics INCLUDING spawn killing, something SUPER CHEAP. Nothing is disallowed in terms of gameplay. Literally every fighting game is like this. Where are your exceptions?
Big tournaments that make up arbitrary rules are typically made by 3rd parties and honestly ruin the game by forcing playstyles. Your rules ultimately force certain playstyles instead of allowing true player freedom, including extremely cheap tactics that do NOT break the rules of the game at all. Just because something is cheap doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed. This is like disallowing time outs in a fighting game. It's absolutely stupid my man. That's exactly what your OOOF rule is, disallowing a win through a time out. You clearly have no idea how to run a proper tournmanet. Even barbarian sports like football have cheap tactics like time outs. It's a strategy, get over it. You clearly get angry any time you lose to a timer. News flash, it means you aren't proactive enough in your gameplay and you need to improve.
Did you miss the part where I said they need to make the whole game balanced before they make pro leagues? The fact you acknowledge everyone would pick Omega Nurse proves this game is unbalanced as ######### and needs complete reworking before ANYONE even thinks of making pro league rules. This is what makes your rule proposals an absolute joke, because you acknowledge the game is unbalanced to the point only one Killer is viable and that you need to come up with stupid crap to make everything else viable. If you have to do that, THE GAME ISN'T READY FOR ESPORTS.
I'm not going to rebuttal your disagreements about what I would find appropriate for eSports rules, because of the fact not a single person upvoted your rules and mine has 4. Yes, I'm absolutely going to adhere to ad populum fallacy here because EVERYONE here knows your rules are useless and completely ruin the game. Sorry, they do.
And the fact you won't admit it and instead blame the community for your bad ideas is just icing on the cake. This game will never be ready for eSports until BHVR starts taking the balance seriously.
Oh, and for the record, I have played in tournaments. I've played in Halo 5, Smash, Killer Instinct, and various other games at the tournament level. Don't even start that nonsense. Your custom made rule sets that force playstyles would never gain a single attendee and your downvotes prove it.
Post edited by weirdkid5 on3 -
Or you guys are just super critical of literally everything on the forums. Just look at this place dude. Like yea any idea can be bad, but you guys aren't even giving it a chance. It's just, always immediately negative responses unless someone says something like "buff this killer".
Explain what is arbitrary? I ban the stuff that is ridiculously powerful and limit survivors so they have to make up TEAM builds. If you let anything goes people will always just pick Omega Blink Nurse with NOED/Ruin and a pink mori, or MOM/DS/Adren/BT with purple instaheal medkit and purple myst. There would literally be no variety to the game at the highest level. And like, literally all of you would agree if I say "4 stack SWF > killer", so we obviously need rules in place to limit AT LEAST survivors. Then all things considered, it's only fair to limit killers slightly to keep things fair.
Everything I limit is either to balance the game or to make it impossible to cheese the timers. I didn't just arbitrarily pick stuff to be in the rules. I sat and thought "what is a good metric to use as a win for a tournament"... Time... "Okay how would we set up rules to make time the metric"..."okay now how can someone cheese the rules?"...then..."okay so what would the average tournament match look like"..."oh all Nurse's and survivors with full OP meta builds, that's bad because there is no variety, how can we add variety"..."let's limit each side a bit at a time and see what would happen". Rinse repeat until you have something that allows variety in the meta without making it unfair for either side.
Like I'm not putting "No Ruin + NOED" because I don't like it, I put it because with all other rules considered this would potentially be way too powerful for killers AND AS SUCH every killer will run this combo every single game. No variety and it unbalances the game for tournaments. Better to just take it out.
Halo 5 is the first game to really be just the base game since CE. Every other Halo had to change the game settings and have rules in place to make it tournament viable. Halo Reach is the biggest one here, they had to change almost every setting to make the game competitive.
Like I won't deny that having a developer put the time in to make the game balanced for competition would help, but not having that doesn't automatically exclude the game from being played in tournaments competitively. You can make it work by changing game settings and having certain rules in place. It might not be ideal but it's playable.
Cheap tactics ruin eSports. Any time something excessively cheap is found they make a rule to address it, specifically when it comes to time out or stalling. NO ONE wants to sit and watch a game where nothing happens for 30 minutes.
And it's pretty clear you didn't even read the rules, because OOOF isn't there to disallow a win through time out, it's there to prevent survivors from cheesing the killer's timer in situations where they know it will end in a 4k so they just hide all game. You really want to sit and watch a 30 minute game where a killer just searches the map looking for a survivor the entire time? It's not even something that could happen often, the rule is there for those fringe cases where it could even happen in the first place. It discourages survivors from dragging out the game, but doesn't explicitly punish them for doing it. They CAN trigger OOOF and it would mean nothing if they escape. It puts the pressure of winning on the survivors not the killer because the metric we have (time) is mainly focused on survivors not on the killer.
And it's funny you bring up Smash because that game actually does change the rules a LOT. The normal game is a free-for-all with items and every stage and in time mode. Tournaments (Melee) play 4 stock 8 minutes, no items, 1v1, all but 7 stages BANNED, Dave's Stupid Rule (if they still call it that), and hell they have had rules or considered rules to BAN STALLING. You try to defend time outs then mention a game that actively tried to ban them, BECAUSE IT RUINS THE GAME. I'm OG Smash Melee, I was part of the back room that made the community rule set. Stalling was a serious concern but it was ultimately decided that any rule we came up with was too arbitrary to enforce*. It wasn't much of a problem in Melee, only Peach could do it on Fountain of Dreams, but in Brawl it was a big problem because a lot of characters could do it with ledge stalling. I left the community after Brawl came out, so I honestly don't know the details of how they resolved it, but it was something that was definitely talked about a LOT in the back room. The thing was, unlike the DBD community, most of the Smash community hated cheesey tactics and as such no one would really try to do it, so it became this sort of unspoken rule to not do it because it's lame.
*This is why I don't have rules that say "no tunneling or camping" or "no looping" because you can't enforce that. I can however enforce "no keys" because I could see a key in someone's hand and if they open the hatch with anything more than 1 survivor left it's obvious a key was used. I can enforce perks/add-on/offering pick limits.
Post edited by thesuicidefox on1 -
So one thing about this rule, it would be enforced at the discretion of tournament officials. I should add that clause, but basically it means that you can't let someone bleed out to add time to the survivor team. If you know where they are you have to just pick them up and hook them to end the game. And you can't mori spam to extend their death, if you have them dead to rights you need to just kill them. BUT it doesn't mean you can't attempt like a Doc 3 gen strat and try to make the game last as long as possible. THAT IS STILL ALLOWED, even if it would be harder because no Iri King and no Game, it is still an option because you aren't wasting time "when the game is effectively over". If you want to gen stall go for it, because you are still playing the game.
This rule would be one that TO's might give a warning for at first if it looks like the killer is trying to stall when the game is over. Again testing is needed to iron out these details.
EDIT: Also there is no rule against hitting the hooked survivor. Do what you want, but if other survivors are alive I wouldn't advise wasting your time like that.
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That's not what you're doing. You're saying that if your idea, once implemented, is proven to be a failure, the problem can't be that the idea is bad, but rather that the players themselves are to blame for its failure.
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SMH
Dude I said before that things would need testing. Obviously I can't hit it out of the park without playing it first. But based on my EXPERIENCE running tournaments and playing the game, this would be a good starting point.
If this version of the game is balanced and competitive, then we could relax some of the restrictions. Let killers use both add-on slots. Allow purple add-ons. Allow keys. This sort of thing. Or we go in the other direction towards a bare bones approach. You want to start somewhere in the middle because that's where it will most likely be for DBD, not on the extreme ends.
The problem IS the community. Because you don't seem to want to even give it a chance. Scott just flat out says don't bother. How many of you would even compete in a DBD tournament with ANY rule set? Exactly.
Maybe I should have just suggested the timer rules, but I wrote this out as if I was running the tournament. I like to be thorough, so I just did an entire rule set.
And one thing about community rule sets is that you aren't exactly obligated to play by them. You can run a tournament with any rules you want. The idea behind a community rule set is to establish a baseline for what DBD tournaments would be. I'm not here to tell you that you HAVE to play with my rules. I'm saying, if you run a tournament and you want it to be balanced, exciting to watch, skillful, and fun to play, you would want something LIKE my rules.
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Dude this might shock you but most tournaments for games have little variety because theres always that one combo that's better than the rest. That's just how it is. If you want players competing at their highest skill you don't restrict things in the way you're trying to. All you get then is players using the second best perks with little variety. As it stands most killers would just use Nurse or Billy anyway. A lot of your rules are restrictive, and you fail to realize DbD just doesn't work as a fully competitive game.
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I think it's not the best idea to present your tournament rules in such an arrogant way.
"I hope you guys see this because this is what you should promote to the community as official tournament rules. They are fair to both survivors and killers, allow for a good meta to develop, would be entertaining for spectators, and showcase the game at the highest skill level possible."
Who acknowledged these facts?
Only you. Your only argument is "I ran tournaments for 10 years now." Which, although probably true, does not mean anything.
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"As it stands most killers would just use Nurse or Billy anyway"
Yes which is why they are limited to a selection of 3. And then why survivors are limited because 4 stack SWF >> Killer.
It's one thing when you have a fighting game where only maybe 7 characters are viable, or this one combo is the best, or this one weapon is the best. It's another thing when there would only be exactly one way to play the game in a tournament setting.
The difference is that DBD with no limits would have ZERO variety. You want enough variety in tournaments that it's good for spectators, but you don't want that variety to hurt the competitive nature of the game. Smash allows the stages that WORK. There was a time when people discussed the idea of FD only, and it fell out of favor because no one wants to play or watch games on only 1 map. That, and it was realized that some character match ups actually change dynamically when you allow stages with platforms.
All I'm trying to do is avoid the obvious outcome of what a no limits rule set would allow. Limits are necessary, if only to balance SWF against killer. Again none of you would disagree with that, so the fact you push for a no limits style tournament baffles me.
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Okay maybe I was a bit brash with that statement. I'll give you that. BUT I still stand by it. My goal with this was exactly all that.
- fair to both sides
- allow for meta to develop
- entertaining for spectators
- showcase the game at the highest skill level possible
My rules should achieve each of these points is what I was trying to convey. Obviously it needs testing AS I HAVE STATED BEFORE but this would be the starting point for sure. I have enough experience playing the game to at least visualize how games would go with these rules. There is a lot of room for different strategies on both sides, and it fits the basic premise of the game; survivors want to escape, killers want to kill.
Take for example Tyde's tournament. Now I will give credit where credit is due, Tyde's rule set made for a very exciting and varied game. It was also relatively balanced, though some killers got shafted by the "must use their perks" rule, but for the most part it worked. The problem came from his metric of the win condition. He went by Bloodpoints, which resulted in a finals where one teams killer got a 4k and the other a 2k but the 2k killer's team won because they earned more BP. IDK about you, but a situation like that is just stupid. It was pretty clear the other killer was better and/or the survivors he faced were not as good as the others, yet they lost. This was a situation I actively tried to avoid with my rules, hence why so many if>then statements, because it should be that the team that displayed the most amount of skill wins, not the team that was best at farming BP.
Now yes, I do use BP as a tiebreaker, but it's so deep in there that the game would have to be very even otherwise (and even then it's just as a means to avoid playing a new set of trials, which trust me you would never want to do that).
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Limiting it to 3 random killers is an awful way to do it. Survivors don't even need SWF to outmatch most killers, and they also all play the same with only minor differences through perks. Killers play drastically different and if you're a Billy or Hag main but get let's say Spirit, Leatherface and Legion, you're already playing a losing game because your options are either weak or something you're unfamiliar with. And that's just one point that's already flawed.
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Hence why survivors are limited the way they are.
What you are asking for is basically to make 4k's a common thing, which means the win comes down to killer NOT survivor. You can't put the burden of the win is on killer, BECAUSE IT IS INHERENTLY UNFAIR. If we have a rule set where 4k's were less common then the burden of the win is ALWAYS on the survivors and killers play against that. We don't want every game to be a 4k or a 4e.
You guys are arguing because you think it's unfair to killer. IT IS. Which is why you can't use them as a metric for winning. Remember guys this is a team vs team rule set. It's not about how good is your killer, it's about how good are your survivors. Only when all the survivors SUCK and it's no longer a reliable metric do we go "okay how good was your killer then".
Killer doesn't have to win for the team to win. Survivors have to win. Killer just has to make it harder for them to win. What you want is for killer to be the one that "wins" the match, but it's just not feasible to use that metric because it's unfair.
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