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The Idea of built in "Counterplay" is crippling new killers.
With Legion, the biggest issue that we saw, and probably the most vocal feedback was that there was no counterplay to his power. When he decided to chase you, you were put on a timer and going to go down. His power made hits trivial and his add ons made downs laughably fast.
Since Legion, the design of killer powers has taken a serious turn for the worse.
Both the Plague and Ghost face have been SEVERELY limited by having a majority of their powers put into the hands of the survivors. Their decisions limit entire aspects of the powers.
Plague's power is nothing short of depressing as a killer player. Yes, you can break survivors. That's great. You become an M1 killer with permanent exposed status. But that isn't really fun or interactive in any way. Instead, her more interesting effect, the corrupt purge, is entirely survivor based.
- Do you get Corrupt Purge ONCE in a match? If survivors choose not to cleanse then you simply have no access to the bulk of your power. As being broken often still means longer chases than facing corrupt purge, it's a common decision these days. (You know, the one time a month someone plays Plague any more.)
- But you can play around it still, right? Like I said, being an M1 killer isn't fun. She's a very animated killer and projectile vomiting should be enjoyable, but 10 seconds into a match your power no longer has a function.
- What about trying different add ons? Another large problem pops up with her; roughly half of her add ons ONLY serve a function with Corrupt Purge. These have now become bloodweb fodder because it's never worth bringing Corrupt Purge add ons when you may get into a match and never be allowed by the survivors to have the effect.
The Ghost Face (please rename him 'The Ghost') suffers a very similar fate.
His power is intended as "stealth," which we've seen done effectively in a number of different ways on other killers. None of them came with a loud honking megaphone yelling "I AM CURRENTLY STEALTHY, LOOK FOR ME!"
Furthermore, his power is entirely disabled, drained, and put on cooldown by looking at him. If there's one aspect survivors are 100% favoured in, it's looking around. There are 4 survivors all packing a third person camera that can spend most of the match looking at you from very long distances with no downside in most cases.
The point of this is, THIS IS NOT WHAT PLAYERS WANT WHEN WE SAY COUNTERPLAY.
Counterplay does not mean these fundamentally built in ways to disable killer powers, or deny their stronger aspects. At a glance in our existing killer cast we can see great examples of counterplay:
Myers - His power becomes difficult to use if you aren't tactical. Breaking line of sight makes tiering up take a longer time. He is slow to start the match but scales to a one-shotting beast.
All of these grant the survivors ways to play around his power to better their chances. Importantly; HE DOESN'T LOSE THE ABILITY TO STALK because survivors say "no thank you, I don't want you to stalk me this game." and don't interact with an object or some rubbish. There's no way to trap a Myers in a lower tier besides playing well.
He does have a stalk limit per survivor, but this only serves to limit him snowballing off one player all match, it doesn't prevent him gaining tiers through a majority of the match.
Huntress - Long range attacks, they take a degree of skill to use. Predicting the movements of survivors, and survivors seeing the direction you aim and predicting your intentions make her an incredibly skill-based and dynamic killer in a match. Again, there's no way to stop her reloading hatchets all match, no way to prevent her throwing them.
Spirit - An entire power based on mindgames. Sound-based perks assist both sides but none prevent her phasing or using her power, they just make it harder to use accurately.
Hag - Traps can be crouched over to avoid them, which allows for play when traps are present, but prevents avoiding them altogether in the heat of a chase. While her traps can be burned with a flashlight, this is not a default ability all survivors are bringing into a match, and has a finite limit within a single match.
TLDR; Many killers have counterplay without blatant, built-in mechanisms to turn off or cripple their powers permanently. Legion was ambitious and it didn't work out, but their failure shouldn't destroy every killer that comes after them JUST IN CASE it feels like the power might be useful.
Killer powers need to stop being put into the hands of survivors OVER the killer player.
Comments
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I feel like people are overreacting to Plague.
Her power basically reads: "Everyone is permanently Broken unless they give me a Machine Gun."
How is that not good? Killers are overdramatizing this. She can still goop up everything, and it's really nasty. She can use her power just fine even if Survivors choose not to heal up.
It's just the same as Hag. You can choose to slow your game down crabwalking everywhere or just run around willy nilly and give in to her power.
I do not understand why people think that being Broken all game, not to mention oozing an awful green cloud that prevents stealth and coughing and vomiting the entire game is an inconsequential thing.
It's crazy.
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Probably because optimal play involves 0 stealth and loops that can keep you safe for a full minute even while Broken.
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It isn't inconsequential. It's boring as #########.
You can break survivors, and they can choose to stay broken, and that often happens VERY early. And after that, what? You walk and M1.
This is MEANT to be a highly dynamic killer that has power spikes through the match and switches between two forms. She simply doesn't do that.
She's MEANT to have an aspect of her power that allows her to chase more effectively, avoid constant looping. She simply doesn't do that.
The draw of playing as a killer is their power. It has to be interesting and enjoyable to use. The ability to get good outcomes in terms of kills is important AS WELL, but isn't the be all and end all of good content or a unique character.
I open the killer menu and there's no motivation to play a killer who presses M2 once at the start of the match and then may as well just have a passive ability.
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See, that's the "only one way to play" thing I was telling you about in the other thread.
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When I play Plague, I run perks to end chases faster. Why is BBQ, Bamboozle, Enduring combo Plague bad?
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Completely agree.
Plague basically has no power. Unless you are playing against potatoes you will not get to use your power even once until the last gen is popped which is where they'll al cleanse at the last second.
You just play the entire game trying to M1 while circling pallets. That's it.
Survivors having control of her power entirely is terrible design. Not getting to even use her power isn't fun.
Killers need the powers in THEIR hands. She needs fixes.
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Omg miss plague is puking on me!! All I need to do is run to the next jungle gym, throw 100 pallets, loop her until tomorrow, use my BL or Dead Hard to gain more time and that's it! 4 gens are done.
But don't worry, in the end you will be able to use your corrupted purge. I'm waiting on the exit gates with my SWF tbaging you with the flashlights btw
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This basically sums up playing Plague in red ranks quite well.
Not only is it not fun when you don't get to use her power at all, but the devs have a misunderstanding that staying injured is more dangerous than it is.
There are more than enough pallets and windows to finish all 5 gens before you run out. THAT is the problem.
She isn't effective or fun.
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But survivors are always saing that Plague is balanced
Wich means: a potato that I can control.
So the devs
I don't know, I don't have hopes for Plague anymore. The only good thing about her at the moment is her design and voice acting
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One of the more thought out and respectful posts about this issue that I've seen so far.
I've only just started branching out more with the killer side, having mostly played the hag. And the difference between playing everyone's favourite masked stalker and the puking princess is notable even to a scrub like myself.
As a survivor, where is the sense in giving the killer the chance to use the most harmful part of their power base if you don't have to? If you're going to put it in the players hands, most aren't going to give the killer a chance. That'd be like standing on a hill and spinning on the spot till Myers got his tier three. And i have to say that's not on the survivors, if killers had the chance to prevent survivors from using something that could turn the tide of the game, I'm pretty sure they would. These are design flaws they need revisiting.
Ghost's issues have been done to death so, nuff said there.
Personally, I would prefer they hold off on new chapters until they sorted out some of these glaring issues, but I might be somewhat naive on that score as I don't really know who does what when it comes to creating/fixing killers, but it does seem to be the more sensible course of action given the current climate with the player base.
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Excellently put together.
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I'll speak for myself:
- I want to control -my- power.
- I want to be rewarded for intelligent use of my power.
- I want a power that scales with my level of skill and that can be effective against good survivors, not just beginners.
- I do not want survivors to dictate how and when I can use my power, much like how I can't really dictate when or how they use their own perks.
- I want survivors to develop their own counterplay organically, not have it built into my kit to hold their hand.
That about sums it up, but that's only what I would want.
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I honestly connect with her thematically and visually more than most the other killers as well. She just isn't viable and it doesn't seem like the devs see that.
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Plague is great from a artistic stand point but not a practical gameplay stand point.
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This thread is fundamentally polluted by an excess of emotion: many take their bad experiences with powerful and toxic SWF, and unduly raise that experience as a general rule. For example, I'm currently in rank 3, and when I meet the Plague, I never see all the survivors happily infected for the whole game.
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This is what we call a Red Herring.
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Whoever believes he has the truth in his pocket and speaks dogmatically is a fanatic. I always use the fountains when I meet the Plague: I have no desire to have No Mither without even the hope of recovering from the dying state. And many think like me.
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There sure are a lot of fanatics on these forums then. LOL
The OP never said a single thing about SWF. Literally everything the OP mentioned can be done by any Survivor.
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The Problem is the devs want to cater to one side because the majority is survivor and the minority is killer. If behavior would learn to see both sides of the equation and understand that making killers who's powers are controlled by survivors is an awful idea the problem wouldn't be as bad.
I made a post kinda similar to this and i doubt behavior even noticed it your post is really good as well but dont count on behavior giving it the time of day they tend to ignore good feedback regarding designs of killers etc.
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Killers are supposed to have the power role in asymmetrical games but there are too many counters to Killers in this game. The Devs hold the Survivors hands like they're babies and yes some of them are babies but it's because they choose to suck that pacifier. Ghostface is a prime example of this, too many crutches for the Survivors, so many crutches for someone who can be seen, Wraith doesn't even have this many counters and he's ''invisible'', where's the logic people?
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Imagine my face when you read a developer response to a non-constructive topic asking for a more 'constructive' one, only to have those in the latter category ignored when they exist by the dozen. Makes you think.
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There will always be bad built-in counterplay because:
1) It's probably really freaking hard to make a good skill that's not broken to one side or the other
2) The devs cater to the Survivors, so everything, including Killer mechanics, are made with a pall of 'What would not piss off the larger playerbase?'
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I mean i have no problem with them responding to others but when a post that is pointing out clear issues within the design of killers etc and it gets no response and gets swept under the rug it just kinda show's that they've made up their mind what they wanna do and no one is gonna be able to get through the thick mind of the higher ups who call the shots.
I mean i gave clear advice to them in my post and it never got a response even though it gave constructive advice for ways that they need to change the way they design killers.
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This is why people have not only been becoming increasingly negative and non-constructive lately, but also why there has been an upsurge in the suggestion that the player base stop supporting BVHR until they get their act together.
Ignoring most constructive threads and giving no response will just make people default to hostility until they inevitably do quit. DBD is not too big to fail, and I think the developers need to understand this before it's too late.
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Yeah it's a shame when the constructive advice goes unnoticed and the people who truly have a passion for the game in its entirety and want nothing more than this game to succeed cant voice their concerns over awful content because the design logic is flawed and very one sided.
Although no matter how much my posts get ignored im not gonna resort to name calling or trash talking ill just simply continue to make memes out of awful designs like my ghostface meme.
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lmao @ over reacting. her power is useless .... i bought her in the sale and my god. wished i hadnt. should of grinded out more shards. her power works against her not for her .... theres not much of a penalty as a survivor as you can be looped too high heaven with her. do you even play killer? if not. go play both sides then come back. your tune will soon change lol
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You are literally that teammate that screws everyone else over by cleansing and costs them the game.
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Do not try to derail the chain of answers.
The OP wrote: "Both the Plague and Ghost face have been SEVERELY limited by having a majority of their powers put into the hands of the survivors. Their decisions limit entire aspects of the powers.", and some users added that the optimal playstyle is to never use fountains, to deprive the Plague of the Corrupt Purge. The message is clear: if the survivors refuse to use the fountains, the Plague cannot access an important part of her power. True. But how often does it happen? Maybe it's the rule when dealing with a perfectly coordinated full team, which prefers the state of Broken throughout the game. But full teams are a small percentage (according to official statistics): those who play alone or in pairs cannot risk so much, and often disinfect themselves by using the fountains, so the idea that the Plague is severely limited is wrong, because it arbitrarily extends the content of limited experiences to all cases.
In fact, I replied: "This thread is fundamentally polluted by an excess of emotion: many take their bad experiences with powerful and toxic SWF, and unduly raise that experience as a general rule. For example, I'm currently in rank 3, and when I meet the Plague, I never see all the survivors happily infected for the whole game."
And you replied: "This is what we call a Red Herring.", suggesting that my statement is false. Very arrogant in thinking that all those who report different experiences are in bad faith...
Hence my final answer: "Whoever believes he has the truth in his pocket and speaks dogmatically is a fanatic. I always use the fountains when I meet the Plague: I have no desire to have No Mither without even the hope of recovering from the dying state. And many think like me."
Do you doubt that I use the fountains? Do you doubt that I've seen other survivors using the fountains? Based on what do you dispute my statement?
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Exactly, once one clown cleanses, then everyone is forced to cleanse unless they want to face Corrupt Purge while broken.
Then the Plague has her pick of fountains and starts snowballing the way she is designed to.
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^ This.
After years of constructive criticism that gets ignored people that are passionate about fixing the game don't know what choice is left.
I've become more jaded over the years and less optimistic when the same mistakes are made over and over even after we tried to warn them.
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Preach, brotha! PREACH! The Ghost(face) is replacing Freddy right now for worst killer. Freddy tier, no more. I now dub thee Ghost tier.
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Ghostface Krueger
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Sounds about right.
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It boils down to the developers being afraid to produce another Nurse or Hillbilly.
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Billy I consider very balanced but the devs don't I guess?
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I actually think Plague would be fine if they added a repair speed debuff when you are sick. Maybe 10 to 15% while in the beginning stages of sickness. 25% once you're sick enough to reach broken state. This way if they don't cleanse you gain time.
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Agreed 100%. I'm not a plague main, but enjoy using her. I love when players stay broken. Sometimes I think players overthink their strategy.
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This would work.
I'd just like a flat 15% only once broken/fully sick and a random fountain becomes corrupted every minute.
They could even increased the base sickness transition time to broken if need be. This would transition her into a true "Plague" if you will, in that you'd be more focused on spreading the disease rather than just bursting into one guy and downing him on the spot with the Vile Purge.
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@Blueberry My dear, are you another fanatic, who thinks his strategy is the only valid and acceptable, or are you a reasonable human being, who has his own ideas without pretending they are the absolute and eternal truth? Fanatic or reasonable? Make your choice! About my choice, when I hear the Corrupt Purge starts, I simply disappear: I go looking for totems, chests, safe rescues, but far from any gen on the map, until the power finishes, or I have the certainty the killer is at the opposite side of the map. Try it: it's not as bad as you think, especially when you play as a solo...
@Tzeentchling9 Thanks for confirming your fanaticism: whoever has a different strategy about the Plague is a "clown", of course. Try replying to the post immediately before that I quoted, if you believe in a constructive dialogue; otherwise, good bye and GG.
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"Fanatic or reasonable?" "Make your choice!"
I already did make my choice as well as all actually competent red rank survivors that know how to play against Plague. It was the "reasonable" choice as it's the most logical one.
"About my choice, when I hear the Corrupt Purge starts, I simply disappear: I go looking for totems, chests, safe rescues, but far from any gen on the map, until the power finishes, or I have the certainty the killer is at the opposite side of the map"
Are you playing at grey ranks or what? This is potato play style. Wasting time like this is how you lose games.
Not to mention you aren't waiting out her Corrupted Purge because now that you cleansed you forced everyone else on the team to as well, meaning she has plenty more fountains to pick it right back up.
"Try it: it's not as bad as you think, especially when you play as a solo..."
Me and all the other red ranks have, plenty. Cleansing is the the worst choice you can make and is not a smart one.
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The loss of the LOL button is such a tragedy.
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Agree 100%
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They should nerf them and rebalance the progression of objectives for survivors. It doesn't scale equally against the killers' functions.
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@Blueberry Rank 3, and sometimes I survive, sometimes I die, against the Plague and against any other killer. Your statement "Cleansing is the the worst choice you can make and is not a smart one." is too generic: you forget to consider the map, the number of the gens to repair or of the available pallets, the situation of the team, the perk build of every player, the killer's add-ons, the playstyle of the people playing that trial in that time and in that way... too dogmatic for my taste. I'm glad you have only certainties in your (virtual) life: I'm not like you, sorry to disappoint you.
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It isn't too generic. In almost all cases you should not be cleansing. Like 95% of the time.
It only seems dogmatic to someone that is ill informed on the game.
"I'm glad you have only certainties in your (virtual) life: "
All we have talked about is choosing to cleanse or not cleanse against a Plague so I don't see how you think that encapsulates "you have only certainties in your (virtual) life". We have literally only talked about this situation.
"I'm not like you, sorry to disappoint you.""
I never said you were and how is that disappointing to me?
Are you done attempting to be a pseudo intellectual and using big words to seem more informed? You do whatever you want, I haven't said you couldn't. I just pointed out why it isn't the most logical choice.
Post edited by Blueberry on6 -
I thought about the flat rate once broken, but being sick even a little would adversely effect you in real life. I feel like a lower debuff that gets worse as the sickness progresses would be more realistic.
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Your first line.
"Inconsequential. Its boring" yet, her viability is INDEED consequential.
If she was OP and boring, we wouldn't have this thread.
So do we want fun or good.
Because not all killers have to be top tier.
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It's not a question of being more or less informed: it's a question of personal and environmental resources. Maybe you are able to keep the Plague busy for 2 minutes of chase even if injured and emitting grunts of pain: I'm not. I prefer to prevent than to engage a chase, if I can: a clever stealth. Moreover, I don't like the gen rush, neither as a killer nor as a survivor. I keep an eye on totems, too: sometimes there is a big surprise, called Devour Hope, seldom NOED. I also like searching for some good loot, with the benevolence of Lady Luck. And sometimes there isn't a good amount of loops or pallets in the map, and it's simply impossible to keep the Plague for a long time with only one health state...
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"It's not a question of being more or less informed: it's a question of personal and environmental resources."
If you are aware of personal and environmental resources available then you are in fact "informed".
"Maybe you are able to keep the Plague busy for 2 minutes of chase even if injured and emitting grunts of pain: I'm not."
Like I said, this is talking about red ranks, not low ranks where people don't know how to loop.
"I prefer to prevent than to engage a chase, if I can: a clever stealth. Moreover, I don't like the gen rush, neither as a killer nor as a survivor. I keep an eye on totems, too: sometimes there is a big surprise, called Devour Hope, seldom NOED. I also like searching for some good loot, with the benevolence of Lady Luck"
You are basically saying you like to play immersed, that's fine. Just know that while playing immersed you are in "most" cases hindering your team by playing this way.
"And sometimes there isn't a good amount of loops or pallets in the map, and it's simply impossible to keep the Plague for a long time with only one health state..."
Basically all red ranks would disagree with you. There are more than enough pallets and windows even on the worst map to get all 5 gens done and still have more left.
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