General Discussions
General Discussions
Killer Emblems: (Updated)
Since the last one went so well, I decided to make one for the killers as well! Hopefully, you'll agree with my points, and if not, I'll tell Ghostface to stalk you! π
Note: Values are subject to change, they are just placeholders.
Gatekeeper: General
Emblem quality is based on how long you was able to prevent one exit gate from being opened.
- Bronze: 6 minutes
- Silver: 8 minutes
- Gold: 10 minutes
- Iridescent: 12 minutes
If the trial ends with both exit gates closed, you'll be awarded an iridescent quality.
If the EGC starts with one survivor remaining, you'll be awarded an iridescent quality, assuming both exit gates are closed when it started.
Reasoning:
Why change Gatekeeper to be based of how long you are able prevent 1 exit gate from being opened?
Gatekeeper is all about preventing survivors from escaping, so with that in mind, all 5 generators being completed doesn't automatically mean "They escape, you lose". Furthermore, not only does it make sense with the emblem name, but it also opens up new play styles that were originally lackluster with Gatekeeper (Ex: 3-generator strategy or end game builds).
Malicious:
Now receives the proximity penalty (camping), chaser will no longer be affected by the proximity penalty.
Hooking a survivor when another survivor is already hooked will award more points.
Insta-downs will award double the points earned for attacking a survivor once. This will only take effect if the survivor was brought to the dying state, from the healthy state.
Suggestion by @Mister_xD & @NuclearBurrito
Grabbing survivors from a bear traps, jigsaw boxes, totems, lockers, generators and so on will award the same amount of Malicious points as attacking a survivor once. If the survivor was previously healthy, the points are doubled.
Reasoning:
Now receives the proximity penalty (camping), chaser will no longer be affected by the proximity penalty.
Since Malicious is all about pressuring survivors, the proximity penalty will be best suited in this emblem category.
Hooking a survivor when another survivor is already hooked will award more points.
Like I said above, hooking someone when someone else is already hooked should cause a lot of pressure on the survivor team because they have to make 2 rescues with a killer on the loose.
Insta-downs will award double the points earned for attacking a survivor once. This will only take effect if the survivor was brought to the dying state, from the healthy state.
Usually Insta-downs cause a lot of pressure because that's when survivors start dropping like flies. This should be rewarded more, especially since some killers suffer from this such as Billy or Myers.
Grabbing survivors from a bear traps, jigsaw boxes, totems, lockers, generators and so on will award the same amount of Malicious points as attacking a survivor once. If the survivor was previously healthy, the points are doubled.
Grabs are extremely hard to come by, unless your a stealth killer. However, when you do get one, it's like an instan-down because survivors are immediately put into the dying state when grabbed. When survivors are insta-downed, it can cause a lot of pressure as previously explained above. Furthermore, certain killers such as Trapper will no longer be negatively affected by this emblem category.
Devout:
Is now based on the combination of how many hooks and sacrifices you get.
My idea was refined by @NuclearBurrito
- Bronze: 4 hooks, 1 sacrifice, 1 mori, and/or 1 disconnect.
- Silver: 6 hooks, 2 sacrifices, 2 moris, and/or 2 disconnects.
- Gold: 8 hooks, 3 sacrifices, 3 moris, and/or 3 disconnects.
- Iridescent: 10 hooks, 4 sacrifices, 4 moris, and/or 4 disconnects.
Reasoning:
Why change Devout to be based on the combination of how many hooks and sacrifices you got?
This change encourages different playstyles, such as spreading the damage. This means 2 hooking everyone (8 hooks) will result in a gold devout emblem. However, sacrificing everyone will always result in an iridescent devout emblem because the killer's ultimate goal is to sacrifice everyone. This is to help killers get rewarded for both spreading the damage and for getting their sacrifices.
Chaser:
Insta-downs will award double the amount of points earned for winning a single chase. This will only take effect if the survivor was brought to the dying state, from the healthy state.
Suggestion by @Mister_xD & @NuclearBurrito
Grabbing survivors from bear traps, jigsaw boxes, totems, lockers, generators and so on will award the same amount of chaser points as winning a chase once. If the survivor was previously healthy, the points are doubled.
Reasoning:
Insta-downs will award double the amount of points earned for winning a single chase. This will only take effect if the survivor was brought to the dying state, from the healthy state.
Technically, if you insta-down someone from the healthy state, you already won the second chase so why not award that? Furthermore, certain killers that I mentioned above also suffer from this so why not award them for cutting the chase time in half?
Grabbing survivors from a bear traps, jigsaw boxes, totems, lockers, generators and so on will award the same amount of chaser points points as winning a chase once. If the survivor was previously healthy, the points are doubled.
Same trend with the Malicious changes: Grabs seem to be hurting the killer more than helping them nowadays. If you grab a healthy survivor, you should be awarded double the chaser points because you halved the chase. You should be severely rewarded for preventing a second chase from happening.
Done! :)
Comments
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Thank you so much wonderful person for doing this π·β€οΈ i really think changes are needed for scoring it makes it even more stressful as killer to be so ontop of gens but drawing the game out so long to make sure you tick all tge boxes to just get a pip and if you play micheal or trapper say goodbye to chaser so thank you so much for doing this π
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Wonderful job :D Congratulations for all that.
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Yes, please.
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Looks good!
Also something else I'd like to point out.
There's a big issue with the relationship between Gatekeeper and Chaser.
Hypothetically if you got an iridescent Chaser you would have Iridescent Gatekeeper because that would mean that you are starting and ending chases very quickly. IE you are slowing down gens as best as possible. However this isn't the case. The fact that you can get an iridescent Chaser and still get gen rushed to hell netting you only a silver in Gatekeeper tells us there is a balance problem imo.
This inconsistency is evidence that killers simply do not have the appropriate amount of time for Gatekeeper even when playing the best possible bar like Nurse etc.
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I think that's more of a core game issue rather than an emblem issue.
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That's true.
The emblem system just points out that there's a problem in the games balance.
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slight addition to chaser:
Beartraps award the same amount of chase points a succesfull chase would. picking someone out of a trap will grant another succesfull chase.
reasoning: trapper is probaply the killer that gets fcked over by the chaser emblem the most, as traps do not count as succesfull chases. that means, that the better you played, the worse that emblem is going to be for you as the killer, making it literally impossible to rank up with him in high ranks. this addition should fix that problem.
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This is a good point and makes sense.
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Honestly you should just get points for hooks and sacrifices. Add in a camping penalty and call it a day. Keeps the 10 hooks 4 sacrifices goal in tact without all the arbitrary problems chaser and gatekeeper cause.
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I kinda just preferred this original way where blood points was the determining factor.
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I can get 15k+ bp without trying. What would you even set the value at?
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Your idea has been added to the list.
If anyone wants to add something, please tell me what it is while explaining why it needs to be in the emblem system. :)
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Oh I have no idea what values I'd choose. They would never do this so I haven't put that much thought into it.
In general though I think pipping is too easy and I would probably put them quite high if it was up to me.
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I liked the old pip system, it rewarded you for everything you did unlike the emblem system. However, I'm happy that they are moving forward with my changes on the PTB :)
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Just going to bring this topic back up because the Malicious and Chaser emblems really need to be looked at if you use insta-down stuff.
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Somethings:
Personally I'd like grabs (including from traps) to be worth 1 extra hit compared to hitting them all the way down. Since grabs are extremely hard to get regardless of what method you use, and are certainly worth rewarding.
So if you grab someone healthy off a gen then you would get 3x max chaser points and lock in 2 malicious points (since they can only heal off 1 state)
Additionally and more importantly:
I refuse to support any pip system that DOESN'T reward optimal play. As such, if you are able to for example: Down all 4 survivors immediately and hook them all simultaneously, then that should be an auto iridescent in at the very least devout.
Remember, a ranking system that tries to enforce ethical play misses the point of a ranking system. The whole reason why you want to have a ranking system in the first place is in order to track who is a better player than whom in order to matchmake the correct players together.
Thus if 1 person is getting 4k's in 4 hooks, while another player is getting 2K's in 10 hooks then the person with 4 hooks is clearly preforming the superior strategy, since it is fulfilling his win condition (killing survivors) more effectively than the person who is getting 10 hooks. If you think that's only because the 4ker camped for it then that's IRRELEVANT, since if someone uses scummy play in order to get optimal results then they are STILL getting optimal results and should be rewarded accordingly.
So no. Devout should NOT be based on hooks, or at the very least should be guaranteed iridescent for getting a 4k.
Besides. Camping isn't a good strategy, so if a Killer is winning by camping then what that means is that the people they are playing against are potatoes, and thus by giving the Killer a pip he will move up to face better players who know how to counter camping (gen rush), and will punish the Killer accordingly. Either way eventually the survivors will learn to counter camping and the Killers will have to learn strategies besides camping in order to continue ranking.
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Personally I'd like grabs (including from traps) to be worth 1 extra hit compared to hitting them all the way down. Since grabs are extremely hard to get regardless of what method you use, and are certainly worth rewarding.
Agreed, I also had the same idea, so I'll add your suggestion into my thread!
I refuse to support any pip system that DOESN'T reward optimal play. As such, if you are able to for example: Down all 4 survivors immediately and hook them all simultaneously, then that should be an auto iridescent in at the very least devout.
Devout is all about hooking and sacrificing survivors, your suggestion seems reasonable. Would you be okay with Devout rewarding both hooks and sacrifices?
1K and/or 4 hooks = Bronze
2K and/or 6 hooks = Sliver
3K and/or 8 hooks = Gold
4K and/or 10 hooks = Iridescent
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Sure!
Generally I just use hook states in order to get the best curve (since that's what ultimately matters and NOT the actual number of hooks and a 4k is always exactly 12 hook states unless mori's), but that's close enough.
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I always thought that victory cubes were the best iteration of the killer's pip system
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Done, updated the thread! :)
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I'm just going to bring this topic back up because the killer's emblem system is really lackluster right now. Hopefully, I'll get a developer response like last time. :)
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I love this idea. This would definitely be a big step forward in fixing the ranking system.
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This would definitely help most killers to be honest, especially my version of Gatekeeper.
The thread has been updated, namely, explanations are more clear, and I added some more changes to it. :)
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Probs for the work and your ideas
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Want a fun scenario? 3 gens with someone hooked in the middle of them yay to losing my emblems for "camping"
The developers need to stop reading the survivor rule book.
They even implemented instant escape so survivors can tbag at the gate and not lose an item when they get hit by franklins. pfft...
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Mostly I like it BUT:
- Devout currently requires 9 hooks min for iridescent, toned down from 10 because DCs and deaths on hook ruin it, however a minimum hook requirement promotes healther play. They would be unlikely to remove this as a requirement.
- Instadowns should be based on killer powers, as it means effective use of the killer. Instadowns from perks are perks to make the game far easier and should not award double points.
- Plague's power should be classed as an instadown if they do not cleanse for X seconds.
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Interesting Ideas in here. I like it! π
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Hook system is pretty much flawed atm. If person dies on first hook, no matter why, Killer is only awarded 1 hook towards emblem, which is pretty much BS devs implemented to force unoptimal plays.
I had multiple games when first hooked survivor killed himself on hook, cause he didnt want to play against certain Killer I was using, so I was punished for someone's actions.
If I chase someone around hook, and third guy is not fast enough and hooked person is pushed to 2nd state - I'm getting punished for that too.
As stated above in thread Devout emblem should NOT be punished if person dies on his 1st or 2nd hook. Death on hook should always provide 3 points overall towards Devout.
Campers will benefit from it ofc, but there are other ways to push them away. Increase penalty in Malicious for hook proximity while not in chase greatly and problem is solved.
I agree that Chaser emblem should not be affected by camping penalty, it is illogical at very least. I had a lot of games when I've chased ppl around Killer shack while guy was in its basement hooked, they refused to move away and let 3rd person unhook, so I was punished for that.
Certain maps punish you even if you dont even close in terms of path to hook, like The Game, if you chase someone on different floor and hook is above/under you, you are getting punished for that too.
It looks like devs are pushing Killer into behavior model when he hooks person and must run away in the middle of nowhere ignoring signs or aura reads if anyone else is around. After those changes I saw multiple survivors who were accusing me in camping hook when all gens were done, cause they were entitled to have free and save unhook.
I've asked ppl always after such - what did you expect me to do when gates are opened and I have hooked person? Run at other side of map? Never had any reasonable answer. Just - "i dont give a ######### - you are still camper"
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The only killer emblem that needs to be changed is Gatekeeper. The way it worked originally and now were both awful. We need an entirely new calculation, one where you are not required to micromanage survivor objectives.
After that, just fix Chaser/Malicious for one shots and bear traps. Also Devout should award gold if you get a 3k with minimum hooks.
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Do you think my Gatekeeper suggestions will be enough? Is there anything you would add to it? :)
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Yes, this is perfect, it really resonates with what Killers are meant to do and get rewarded for it as well.
Also I'd like to point out that you mentioned Myers and Billy when it came to Instadowns but Plague is a huge example of her own ability directly limiting her Emblem/points. She has an awful Chaser because she can down Survivors almost instantly and your version of the Emblems would fix that 100% this felt really good to read <3 not often I feel happy after reading a discussion.
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To be entirely honest, no. Basing the emblem on time is just stupid. There are too many other factors to consider. If survivors are super immersed and just play very cautiously, therefore taking say 10 minutes to do all the gens, that's not a reflection of your skill as killer. The survivors just took their time, you shouldn't be rewarded for that really.
It needs an entire overhaul to how it is calculated. I made a suggestion in the past, but now a few things have changed so IDK if it would work (specifically they added EGC).
The did seem to listen to my suggestions that all totems should count for Lightbringer and pallet stuns should count for Evader. Hopefully that means they are working on a new way to calculate Gatekeeper too.
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Could you link it to me? I'd like to see your suggestion! :)
Also, while I agree that killers don't have much control over generators, they do have something to combat generators such as map pressure.
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Just don't necro the thread. I got a 'BHVR read' on it so they have seen this, and like I said they definitely took my suggestions for totems and pallet stuns.
And looking back I don't even think that's a good solution either. The point here is that Gatekeeper needs a complete rework.
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You should still get points if the doors are open for Gatekeeper because you're still able to prevent Survivors from escaping, it's just much harder. The game isn't over until the last Survivor dies or runs out of the gate. It would suck to pull off a last minute comeback only to have the the Gatekeeper Emblem just completely ignore it.
You'll always struggle with Devout against hook suicides and DCs. That's why the hook requirement needs to go. Survivors shouldn't have that much control over a Killer's Emblem. I would just say screw promoting healthier play and give Killers control over their Emblems.
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