Killers aren't the problem, it's the objectives
From my experience (1600 hours) It seems to me that killers aren't the problem (to an extent - legion) Most killers do quite well, some here and there could use a few tweaks like plague etc but the killers themselves aren't the problem as they can actually perform quite well, the only problem is the lack of time they have due to gens going by so quick. It's a problem as ruin is used by most killers and still have problems.
Killers who can end chases quickly with good map pressure are the best killers as they can constantly keep up map pressure (nurse,billy) whereas killers who can do well but are limited because of their map pressure due to time wasting (trapper,clown) are really thrown down due the lack of map pressure.
There needs to be a COMPULSORY secondary objectives for survivors (I.e needing to get gen parts etc) so the games don't end in 3 minutes. Gens go by way too quick and killers can't handle the pace of the game. This is why ruin is so predominant in games. Gens need to be slower/ survivors need more objectives, besides holding M1 is boring.
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100% agree
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Making the objectives longer would make top tier killers stronger and mid tier killers strong. This would kinda make the top tier OP I feel. However buffing the weak killers only makes them stronger and does not change anything else. I do think objectives should be longer or adjusted. But if they are changed in the wrong way, then we have OP killers. Something that would be fair for both map pressure killers, and m1 killers.
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This would really hurt the game balance at lower ranks. ... Honestly they need to start making survivor objectives harder based on how high your rank is.
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WhY wAnT tO nErF sUrViVoR aGaIn
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Or in more practical terms: The Killer should have some skill based method of making survivor objectives harder.
Since having the game's balance directly effected by rank defeats the point of ranks.
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"you see what the problem is? it's Objective."
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So what? Git gud or git out. Thats how it works in other games.
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Map pressure is also not tied to the Killer Core Power, it's also the way the PLAYER plays.
I've seen good Wraiths, I've seen bad Wraiths.
I've seen good Huntresses, I've seen bad Huntresses.
It boils down to getting outplayed/making mistakes on either side. It's not purely the objective.
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This is void when you consider just how rare it is that gens are close enough that you can patrol them all before at least one is done.
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Funnily enough I've heard someone else say the exact opposite.
@DudeDelicious Can you explain why you think a defensive gen protector playstyle is more effective than a more aggressive playstyle? I can see a lot of fundumental flaws with it, such as anyone who is good at looping can stall you out indefinitely if you are just giving up when they inevitably loop you. So if you are against 4 good loopers (something which you can't control) then you should lose almost every time with that strategy. Do you have a specific strategy to counteract this?
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i know a way to counteract that, play 3 gen strat docter. Use unnerving presence, distressing, barbecue and chili, and overcharge, and for addons, use high stimulus electrode, and "restraint" - Carter's notes, and that game will be a gg
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@DudeDelicious what killer do you play? Because a 3 gen strat is incredibly risky. The only Killers I can see it sort of working for are Nurse, Billy and Hag due to their mobility. The new Freddy might work too.
Otherwise even if you stay near the same 3 generators the entire game it's only a matter of time before they complete one of them.
And you mentioned downs, but in order to get downs against a good survivor you need to commit to a chase. 3 genning isn't a subtle strategy. Once they realize what you are doing (which won't take long since you won't have pressure on almost the entire map and that shows) they will just run in to get some gen progress, Run out when you see them, loop you until you leave (during which time everyone else is doing gens), heal if you hit them and then repeat. Since with all 4 survivors they can do this faster than you can regress the generators after chasing them off this is a losing strategy. And if you commit to a chase at that point the other 3 survivors can just focus a single generator making that a losing strategy too.
Those slug strategies you mentioned require you to first down someone, and downing someone while using that kind of strategy is disproportionately difficult and VERY exploitable.
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Oh wait. Doc can do it too with some builds. Since he can interrupt gen progress long term with his shock to get some regression.
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Killers should get out then because they're not getting good enough.
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Then do a three Gen strategy, duh.
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This is also a very rare circumstance. Most survivors are too smart to do this, and bout half the time no gens are close enough together to do a 3 gen strat.
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@DudeDelicious again. What Killer are you using. 5 and 4 gen strats have the exact same issue as the 3 gen strat except they are easier to brute force with until they start to resolve like a 3 gen strat.
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Sounds good on paper but the Devs literally balance this game for low ranks. Have any of you ever not played survivor for like a week after rank reset? They struggle to get gens popped most of the time adding a secondary objective would just bring these low ranks survivors to the forums to complain.I can guarantee no one at BHVR plays Rank 1 Killer consistently every reset, so while this change would benefit high rank play the low ranks would suffer in return. Even with these secondary objectives I think high rank survivors would still do pretty well and it wouldn't change much, they would just rush to get the gen parts and complete the gens especially if it's SWF.
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So you three gen with all those killers?
I really doubt half of those killers will be able to keep enough gen pressure for a three to work.
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Technically 5 gen but I mean... yeah that just makes the problem worse
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I have to heavily disagree with this. Some killers (Nurse, Billy, Spirit, Hag & Huntress) can actually pressure the game because they have a real power that is threatening.
Against any other killer though, competent survivors do not care about healing and will only do generators until they can activate adrenaline. Considering that, any killer that I didn't mention above will heavily struggle with applying pressure to the game especially if you pair that up with a bad map like Haddonfield, Ormond, Disturbed Ward or the Coldwind maps which have either a massive amount of safe pallets or a very strong structure loop that has no counterplay. Other maps like Mother's Dwelling are so large that it's borderline impossible to properly pressure the generators without any power that grants mobility.
But honestly though, the biggest problem in that case is probably map design considering what I said above.
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So you are suggesting big survivor nerf in a game with 45-55% escape rate? No. Gen times are fine, git gud.
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That's not the point.
The point is that they want to make 1.) Ruin not necessary for most builds and 2.) Help weaker killers.
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Ruin is not necessary already, people just use it to have easier matches. Problem with “weaker killers” is not gen times, it’s map design (too large, too many safe pallets, broken structures etc)
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please do not try to tell other players to "git gud" when it is clear that you don't understand killer play at even a basic fundamental level
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I think having a secondary objective just would pan out the issue even more and makes it more clear how big the issues with the different killers are.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to do something else as a survivor that not includes holding m1.
The truth is, by interducing secondary objectives you basically just increase the gentimers, yes you open up more spots where the killer and survivors can interact, but in the end, all it does is elongate the gen/game time.
Top tier killers would become stronger because they can pressure more of the map (because there is a greater chance to encounter a survivor).
The top of mid tier killers becomes somewhat viable, but in the end, secondary objectives only shows clearer which killers are good and which suck.
If you really want to improve the game (health) we need more viable killers.
All killers should be on the same viability level and just be side grades from each other.
Trapper, what do we need: base more then one trap, rearm traps without picking them up, darker base traps, maybe all traps are armed at the beginning of the game. Maybe movement speed buff towards trapped survivors (level of Agitation?)
Wraith: true invisiblity and smoother transition between the going in and out invisibility and maybe faster movement while cloaked.
Billy: it's okay the way he is.
Nurse: is a great killer, add-ons need adjustments.
Doctor: needs better madness mechanic that really helps to slow down the game and give the survivors an incentive to break out of madness asap. Right now he is just annoying to face against and free whispers. Maybe madness 3 should expose you and madness 2 disables actions like current madness 3?
Shape: is in a good spot. We can argue if it would be better to lower the amount of EW3 and reduce it to one hit but faster movement so he can get more of a map presence and going more often in EW3.
Hag: is in a good spot. Maybe increase the base teleportation range?
Huntress: is in a good spot.
Cannibal/LF: he needs to be faster during his chainsaw SPRINT and lower his tantrum.
Nightmare: Need to wait for the rework, but sounds great.
Pig: is in a okay spot, make the crouched transition smoother and the charge attack faster/longer so she can effectively ambush someone. Maybe test more RBT?
Clown: his tonics needs to have a better hallucinogenic effect that let's him shut down loops faster. Still would lack map presence.
Spirit: is in a good spot
Legion: I am not a fan. Deepwound should really do something. Faster vault speed, he is empowered by the entity in the end.
Plague: the survivors really need a huge incentive to clean themselves. Like reduced repair speed so they want to cleanse.
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When they finish the freddy rework they need to work asap of making a second objective for survivor most ppl will just stay at gens and finish but we all know that holding m1 all the time its boring so why not a fresh new objective
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- I am not against having a secondary objective, but I find myself being picky about what it could be. This would mean that there would need to be more mechanics added to the game – this is where my problem lies. I would prefer that they fixed the base game as is before adding something else on top of all the other wonky things. I had mentioned an overhaul and maintenance in another place. I feel like it would be a feasible solution, but that would require them to shut down servers and prioritize this process. The devs seem gung-ho on pushing out all these other things that I doubt they would do this, which is unfortunate. It would help to solve some of those bugs and issues that people have been seeing since release and with every new patch update. 'What about the patch updates?' That's just them slapping a band-aid onto the bullet wounds that their coding is riddled with. Everything has been just trying to fix the symptoms of the problem and not the actual problem itself.
- Depending on what secondary objective gets used, I may stop playing. Certain popular ideas already being proposed on other threads just don't settle well with me. I could go more in-depth, but I'm not going to single them out and have their supporters jump down my throat for it. I can already hear people saying I should just leave and that I wouldn't be missed. Some of you may complain about how lobbies are taking forever and how you see the same people. Part of that is how we've been treating others within this community. Other people have said good-byes and ya'll are okay with it even though it means that the player-base is shrinking. I thought you wanted it to grow?
- A secondary objective might not be necessary if certain other problems get fixed. Killer, map, and survivor tweaks could tip the balance of the game into a good place. You know, because all of the problems boil down to the same factors so people are jumping on the idea of extending time through other means than focusing on the fact that the game holds itself back. It limits itself, but this can be fixed. Buffing and tweaking certain mechanics could potentially extend the time of matches (especially if maps are reworked for stealth plays). The emblem system is a way of trying to prolong the game. You want to rank up, you have to play a full game and not just rush your objective. Good in theory, but the practice is bad due to the fact that ranks doesn't mean #########. People complain about the emblem system, but it's literally just taking the place of a secondary objective for now. Another band-aid if you would.
- This could buff 'top-tier' killers and have survivors crying, or the reverse could happen. At that point, just tweak the killers so more of them are viable (even though any of them could be viable based on learning them inside and out but that's a different topic). It would take less work to make a killer viable than to add a whole other level to the game. Bottom line, I think you should just fix what you already got.
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When talking about the introduction of a 2nd objective, people usually worry about Hillbilly and Nurse being too strong.
Keep in mind: Billy is still loopable. With the current state of the game, Billy will also lose against good groups, no matter how good the Billy player is.
Nurse: While base Nurse is fine, her add-ons need some nerfs anyway (no matter if there is a 2nd objective or not). If there aren't such things as Omegablink- and 5-Blink-Nurse anymore, a 2nd objective will also work with Nurse.
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