What people don’t realize about adding a second objective.
I agree that genrush needs a fix and a second objective could be that fix but if we added one then noed would probably need nerfed and the top four killers would too since they can already deal with gen rush.
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Correct. Camping/tunneling would need to be addressed as well if the survivor objectives take longer to complete.
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Increasing the amount of time you can be on the hook while keeping the three hook state rule would fix camping, I do not know how to fix tunneling though.
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Every time a new game mechanic gets introduced, some adjustments have to be made, of course.
I assume with the top 4 you are talking about Nurse, Billy, Spirit and Hag, correct? From these, I think only Nurse and Billy need adjustments. And these adjustments should be made to their add-ons, not their base ability.
Also yes, NOED could be changed. I don't really think it's necessary to do so, but I'm also not passionate about keeping it the way it is, if a 2nd objective gets introduced.
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@NoShinyPony I think hag could be fine possibly, billy,nurse and spirit can deal with gen rush though.
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Not really. What they would need to do if they added a secondary objective is to have it deactivate once the first survivor dies. That way in the early game it will slow down the game, but if the killer is winning then obviously he/she doesn't need that handicap anymore.
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@GrootDude A good team will still loop Billy for ages. And a good surv can also keep the Spirit busy for quite some time before getting downed.
I don't see a problem with base Billy, only with some of his add-ons, especially when they are stacked, when a 2nd objective should get introduced.
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At that point that would mean that the killer killed one person so the other three survivors are doomed with five gens left.
Don’t you think that killers that currently stand a chance would become OP if a second objective was added?
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Camping: This can be easily taken care of by increasing the time of each hook phase.
Tunneling: Doesn't need adjustment. Take a look at good teams: If one survivor gets tunneled and the others rush gens, then the killer will currently end up with 1 kill. Under some circumstances not even that, if the other survivors really help their teammate who is getting tunneled.
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@NoShinyPony base billy is definitely loopable but if I put charge speed add ons on billy I rarely break a sweat with him, I haven’t put enough time into spirit to learn her but my spirit main friends can deal with gen rush and good survivors.
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Well, even with a secondary objective, if they fail to get 1 or 2 gens done before a survivor is killed then they were doomed to begin with. I'd be good with rank 20-16 survivors not having to do secondary objectives too.
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We do realise it and no noed is at most mediocre perk and even top killers have very hard time against skilled survivors.
What we should do is buff weak killer to at least somewhere around Hillbilly/Hag level, not OP but still quite dangerous. Also there needs to be set limit on lowest amount of time in which gens can be done, even with not much interference like 6-8 minutes is far too low.
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That's why I said base Billy would still be fine if a 2nd objective would get implemented, but some add-ons would need to get changed. Insta-saw-Billy would be too strong.
And Spirits can deal with okay-ish teams, but they won't win against those very good, coordinated groups. (The only add-on that should get changed is Prayer Beads.)
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@NoShinyPony billy would definitely need an add on nerf, someone who has put enough time into spirit can already use her against good teams, she is a really good killer in the right hands.
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Billy can have lower skill cap because his power is countered by looping, hag and spirit can counter loops with luck and a lot of skill, billy can't, he's just dangerous in open spaces or to people without eyes.
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Let's get solo first to the same level like swf before we even think about a second objective. That's like step 1, otherwise solo players would probably just give up versing a nurse while having to do a second objective
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Precisely why he isn’t a good balance target.
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I don't think they will add a second objective, ever.
R20's are already dropping like flies against the likes of Trapper, Freddy, Pig, etc.
And just thinking about the band-aids they would have to introduce to "fix" a higher kill rate, like additional"extra" chances and stuff like that, I'd say no, please.
Gen rush problems at the red ranks (and only there) could be addressed by either one of these ideas:
(brainstorming)
- adding a timed "cooldown" repair debuff on survivors that have recently completed another gen. Let's say, -25% repair speed in the 60 secs after completing a gen, if you at least progressed 50% of said gen. Numbers are just to work with an example
- creating a randomly located, single-use totem-like object with which the Killer could interact (5 secs) at any point of the match (remember, it's a single use), invoking the power of the Entity to prevent 60 seconds of gen repairs, a la corrupt intervention. Survivors can destroy said object if they find it when active, too, in a 20 second interaction
- hiding all names in lobbies to prevent impromptu party-creating, and reducing by 1 perk slot all SWF members. Solo survivors are not affected
- 1 extra perk slot for killers
- my brain ran dry
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Literally just this. If they just fixed what they already have, it would already be better. I'm not even going to go into asking for a second objective until the game as it is gets fixed. Though I have found these conversations intriguing to read.
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I don't want to be toxic in these forums, but what I see is lvl 1-5 killers who wants 4k at least 75% of times, and they don't realise that in levels 6-12 a mid tier killer is a machine killer and at 13-20 level any killer with B&C can get 4k only with slaps. I'm always about lvl 8-10 and in 10 games, 1-2 are 0k for killers, and the other games are 3k-4k. If you add a second objective, it will be 3 or 4k 100% of games.
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I agree with you, honestly buffing solo players and killers would be a better course of action than a second objective. (Ps love your name)
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Gen rush is a problem at purple ranks too but we can’t encourage de-ranking, the solution has to work at every ranks.
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He is, since he proves that killers doesn't have to be able to counter loops to be viable. If you give killer dangerous power and good mobility, they can be high rank viable. Not all killers have to give you a migraine if you play them constantly. Having strong not that hard to play killers is very healthy for the game.
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@prayer_survivor It's not about killers wanting 4ks every match. Killers should simply get a fair chance winning. With the current state of the game, killers are at a disadvantage.
The side who is more skilled should win. A good killer vs. good survivors should part with a draw. But at the moment, a good killer will lose against good survivors, so something needs to change balance-wise.
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Lock ranks in brackets once and for all. Reds will be reds always, purples purples, etc. Once you've reached R1 in the new pip system there's no reason for you (or your peers and enemies) to play at R10 again. That's the only way I see it could happen.
If you decide to smurf, fine, do it without all your perks, addons and whatnot.
I just know buffing killers is not viable/healthy for the game. Killers are slaughtering everyone all the way up to R12 or 13, kind of. And buffing them will inevitably lead to more and more BS to artificially keep noobs alive.
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But if we buff every killer to his level (low skill cap) then low ranks will get constantly demolished and that isn’t good for the health of this game, high skill cap killers will make high ranked survivors think(by this I mean they’d be viable) and won’t destroy low ranks.
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@Condorloco_26 I’ve wanted ranking like that for awhile.
Making them all high skill cap killers could stop low rank survivors being destroyed and high rank killers from being destroyed.
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Yes!!
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Lol, have you ever seen low rank hillbilly. They constantly bump into trees n stuff and get baited by pallets very easily. Low ranks start to become frustrating for new players when old school players get fed up with playing nurse etc and decide to derank to play non-viable killers against noobs. That's the real issue with low ranks. Buffing weak killers can only help the game in EVERY aspect. Look at freddy, he's incredibly weak but for low ranks he's nightmare (pun intended). On low ranks all killers are viable no matter how bad they are so buffing them won't change anything for noobs who just have to gid gud.
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Solo survs should be brought closer to SWF level, yes. Just for the reason to make balancing easier. And then killers need to made stronger.
The question is: Which goal do you have in mind when you want to make killers stronger?
a) Chases should be ended quicker/ Survivors should be downed faster.
b) The length of chases should stay the same. Killers should get more time to do their objective.
That is the core question here. If you want to buff the killer's power, then chases will be shorter. If you introduce a 2nd objective, then the killer has more time.
I love chases, as a survivor and as a killer. I don't want short chases. I want time to have fun chases. Therefore, I want a 2nd objective.
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When I was new billy destroyed me easily, making all killers high skill cap killer and viable would be buffing them.
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@NoShinyPony both options are possible and would be achievable.
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Yeah I think they should modify the whole rank stuff.
Make brackets for every killer, so you have to rank up with each of them separately. I'm a noob with Nurse, so I'd face noob survivors while playing her, until I learn and rank her up.
Lock the ranks in brackets by color and reset shouldn't happen monthly, but every time a chapter is dropped, instead. Reset will only take you to the lowest rank of your current bracket.
I don't know about survivors, I think they are only skins, so rank would be the same for all your characters.
While I'd like all killers to be high skill capped, that would mean DbD Part II because you're not going to ask the devs to redesign Trapper and such. But if you think about it, individually ranked killers would solve this problem. That way I'd play Trapper at around R10 or such, Billy, Huntress and Spirit at R1 and Nurse at R15 or so. Until I git gud and play all of them at R1, for example.
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You have no idea how many people would quit DBD if your idea would come to pass. It would encourage to people to never leave lower ranks since they would be locked forever in SWF gen rush bs. Many people would play normal game, rank up, then play trolling game to derank so they don't have to fear of not beiing able to play non viable killer while also having a bit of fun.
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Also a completely different aspect of a 2nd objective which we haven't mentioned in this thread:
A lot of people have been playing this game since 2 or 3 years and are eager for some changes in the game mechanic. A new objective can bring new life to the game and motivate veterans to play more than they currently are, or bring those veterans back to the game who have stopped playing.
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If nerfing them means balancing them around the new anti-genrush, i'd still be all for it.
EDIT: Them being hit by nerfs isn't what scares me.
What scares me is the devs' understanding of balance. Always has, always will.
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But then we still have the problem with variety if killers aren’t buffed, you’d likely still see mostly nurse,spirit and billy at R1.
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@GrootDude So you want shorter chases?
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I don't think adding a second objective will have the results people expect.
High rank/good survivors will just learn to rush this new objective, while low rank/bad survivors will struggle even more to learn the game.
All it would do is increase the gap between these two groups without actually solving the problem it was made to solve. At the highest level I'd expect a second objective to add maybe an extra 30 seconds to the game at best.
What we need is a limiter on how fast gens can be done. This sort of thing would ONLY affect the good survivors who gen rush and NOT the bad survivors that don't gen rush. This is the kind of solution we need because gen rush is only a problem when survivors know what they are doing.
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And who wasn't destroyed when they were new. We all went through the process. Buffing weak killer to be strong on high ranks doesn't equal to making them hard to play. Giving them more power while keeping them simple opens relaxing gameplay without fearing of getting stomped by good players.
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@NoShinyPony shorter chases and gen pressure, the devs have already made killers able to do this (spirit and nurse mainly).
You’re also right that adding another objective could bring more players back.
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That's just possible because artificially deranking exists and allows it.
My solution includes a way to fight gen rush at the red ranks, so no "locked forever" in SWF genrush BS. Yes, you'll go against SWF, just git gud. The main issue with facing them is genrush, so I think it'd be fair.
Besides, if you're really good at Billy or Spirit, you shouldn't be terrorizing people at every rank reset. Man up and play against the big boys.
Edit: Also I advocate for individual rankings for killers, like I said in my other post. If I wanna have fun playing Piggy, I'll play her in an adequate rank.
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I had good matches against other killers.
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@GrootDude Okay, then we have different preferences. You'd like to see shorter chases, I don't.
I think that chases are that part of the game which is the most fun for the majority of players: The interaction between killer and survivor, mindgames, finding a good looping route etc.
Also, I think that the chases are what makes DbD so popular and successful, compared to other asymmetrical horror games.
If you'd shorten chases, I'm pretty sure this game would lose a significant amount of players.
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That's true, a lack of variety. You'd only find real good Trappers at R1 whenever you faced them, though. And I think that the proposed "anti-genrush" solutions at the red ranks could at least make more killers viable in their current state.
But I find it easier (meaning, at least, possible) to design new powerful killers once in a while than redesigning the whole cast. Let's get real. That won't bring them any money, while new killers will.
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If you remove deranking you don't have ranking system since noone can lose. Also what stops me to get Leatherface to rank 1 and then forever facecamp every game everyone ?
Individual ranking isn't good idea either since most of killer are very simmiliar in base design, noob are getting crushed by poweless trapper so that would cause far greater number of really good killer to crush noobs far more often then now.
Btw I can't gid gud against SWF since I don't psychic powers or killer buddy to play with. Where is my good damm murder with a friend mode devs !!!
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Increasing hook time just ruins the point of a second objective. Add 30 seconds to hook time while adding an extra objective makes no sense. You can still stay on the gen after until almost second tier than grab. There is no urgency in that logic. Killers camp because of how quick the match is or if you're a dick. A second objective would be fine and buffing the movement speed of other killers would be more efficient. You want more campers? The original hook timer was 40 seconds and they increased it by 20 seconds on each tier. All it did was cause even more camping. They added a time stop, survivors abused it. They got a proximity hook penalty yet survivors complain when you have 0% on it. Gen rush creates camping. Gens use to take longer. They shortened them so camping became a thing. It all started with the gen timers being shortened.
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@NoShinyPony sadly fixing gen rush would require shorter chases, you’d only really be ending chase quickly if you learned this killer though.
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Sorry for the lurk. Just that I have a bugging question. Why does the two points you made have to be either this or that? (I don't mean to intrude :O)
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And I had good matches against billies. Individual experience doesn't matter. Core issue is still that bad killers should be high rank viable so that good players don't have to derank so that they can enjoy them.
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