This great Legion idea solves his problems and also gives him power and enjoyment to play
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No he's right. It's relative distance that matters not absolute distance.
Basically take the Legions speed and subtract 4 M/S. That's what you use to calculate his effective range, which is 6.6 for the first hit and 19.2 for additional hits.
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Yeah, but when you chase someone, you always go for the shorter path. That is why he gets chained hits.
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They know your starting location as part of the premise of the situation. They'd be running in a straight line away from you.
They'd need to be heading for a dead end withing 40ish meters (which is possible but mathematically suspect)
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People usually run for loops and not always in a straight line. Even if there is a tree, the survivor will dodge that tree by starting to run to the side and legion just needs to change the camera very very slightly to the side and loses no time doing so. It's a very niche enxample but you get the idea.
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In my rework, I changed his Frenzy to be usable when 25% of the power gauge was filled, since he’s actually worse at chaining hits than your iteration of Frenzy.
This, in my opinion, was what made chaining hits as old Legion possible—not doing it all in one Frenzy, but getting close with one Frenzy and then quickly following it up with another.
Also, to answer your question as to how people get chains: Stupid Survivors. Most to all of my chain hits are from Survivors crouching in place behind trees because they literally do not know that I can see them through walls. And when they aren’t doing that, they’re staying on a generator. My best guess of their thought process is that they somehow get it into their head that the Killer won’t come for them—maybe since they’re used to Legion mains tunneling like absolute 4heads.
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Even if you stand absolutely still and only start running when the Legion turns around to chase you, he would need to hit that first Survivor in under 3.5 seconds to catch you.
Need proof? I’ll do the math.
Legion runs at 5.6 MPS. A running Survivor runs at 4 MPS. This means that Legion catches up to a running Survivor at a rate of 1.6 MPS. When Killer Instinct activates, this iteration of Legion stays in Frenzy for 12 seconds. Multiply that by 1.6, and the Legion covers 19.2 meters more than a running Survivor in that time. This means that to outpace the Legion in a Frenzy, you need to be more than 19.2 meters away from him.
Put more simply, Legion covers 67.2 meters in FF, sure, but a running Survivor covers 48 meters in that same time. The difference between the two is only 19.2 meters.
So let's say he starts chasing after someone, and you don't run until he turns around to chase you. He is running away from your position at a rate of 5.6 MPS. In a mere 3.5 seconds, he runs 19.6 meters away from your location—already more than the distance you need to be from him to outrun him.
At a closure rate of 1.6 MPS, this means that in order to hit that first Survivor within 3.5 seconds, the Survivor needs to start running from his Frenzy when he is 2.1875 meters away.
2.1875 meters. A Survivor can walk more distance than that in a second—2.26 meters, to be exact.
And this is all if the second Survivor stands stock still until the Legion activates his Frenzy. So you can see why even with a suboptimal path, running away screws him over.
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That can also be a change. And i agree with it. It's exactly as @NuclearBurrito said, the numbers can be changed so it is the most balanced and effective as possible.
If there is a case that he can't catch a survivor, the bar will refill quickly up. I think that the correct value should be 45% not 25% nor 60% but still... he can catch survivors more easily with these changes.
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Ok makes sense, sooo... solutions (because yeah I didn't take into account the legion's MS away from the 2nd Survivor when I wrote this. Whoops):
- Increase the Frenzy speed even further
- Increase Frenzy duration even further
Note: if Frenzy is able to cover 120 meters in it's duration for any reason, then that means he is able to catch any Survivor from anywhere before taking into account the actual walls ect (which obviously are important), this is because the largest map has a diameter of 120.
- Decrease the cooldown (not the fatigue time although I'm already decreasing that to 2 here). Basically the approach you mentioned sort of.
- Something wacky
Increasing the duration is possible, but not something I'd want to do. Mostly because I'm not wanting to make it too easy for the Legion to get that first hit. That being said a 2 second increase to base time is conceivable (and thus a 4 second increase for the follow up time). For the record that would be a 22.4 effective follow up range.
Increasing the speed is problematic for the same reason, but also just isn't as effective as you would expect unless you increase it by a large amount.
Now decreasing the cooldown actually wouldn't have a positive effect here. In this legion suggestion the cooldown is 15 seconds to fill to max. Technically he can use it after only 9 seconds but that's only with a duration of 3.6 which will only hit within 2.76 meters (0.75 second startup is a core part of this whole thing).
That being said, in order to get inside his max range of 6.6 he needs to gain 22.2 meters on the survivor from where he would already be.
If the Survivor stopped moving immediately after your Frenzy ended then that would take 5 seconds, however if they keep running then it's going to take an entire 55.5 seconds (since it's 0.4 M/S) in any case, they are going to reach the end of the map before you get to them. And more importantly your power will be back well in advance even if we change nothing about it (all of this is ignoring the fatigue btw).
TLDR: Optimal Survivors in an empty field will never get chain hit by anything other than maybe traps.
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32% is the absolute minimum we can let him use his power at. Since anything less and he would fail to get a hit in even at 0 meters.
I don't think that's the right approach.
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I'm too sleepy to think about numbers and stuff. Give me the numbers and I'll change them on the post, if you guys have an idea ofc.
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Btw. Idk if you'd call this a benefit, but if we make the duration 8 seconds instead of 6 seconds then the total speed is an average of 4.5, which means that using the power gets you a longer distance than walking normally would, rather than just being burst movement.
Right now it doesn't unless you actually hit someone.
I'll ping you if we can figure out something good. For now I'm just playing with the Numbers to see what happens.
Most of it is fine as is in most standard situations (such as the ones listed in the play, counterplay section) but since one of the situations where it DOESN'T work is an important one, that means something needs tweaking, at least a little bit.
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Sure. I'll change any idea that you have tomorrow.
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"32% is the absolute minimum we can let him use his power at. Since anything less and he would fail to get a hit in even at 0 meters."
Not true at all. If you get close to the Survivor in your first Frenzy, you could easily catch them with a second short burst if you put them into an uncompromising position. It can be as simple as mindgaming them normally and then turning on Frenzy when you lunge. And besides, just because the minimum might be too low doesn't mean that waiting for it to just be higher before activating Frenzy isn't out of the question.
I know it's just personal experience, but having the minimum recharge so low was what allowed me to do well with old Legion when it came to chaining hits. In my honest opinion, the fact that he needs to have all of his power back is what nerfed him the most. Having it readily available soon after losing it was what made it good for hitting people quickly.
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Nonono. With old legion and with your legion 25% is fine.
But here 25% of the duration is not 25% of the relative distance.
Remember, there is a 0.75 second startup.
So if the Survivor is literally right on top of you when you use Frenzy, then by the time you start moving they are 3 meters away assuming that they started to run (which we are).
It takes 1.875 seconds to cover that 3 meter distance so anything less than that is a loss in distance even before the cooldown starts, so you will never hit them. This math was all factored into the 6.6 base effective range I've mentioned a few times.
Again for reference, the Spirit has an effective range of 9.2.
If the startup wasn't there then this Legions effective range would be 9.6 instead btw. But the startup exists for non-balance reasons in the first place so it's not something I'd consider changing for this to work.
I'm not saying we can't mess with the cooldown, just that simply tweaking it to work like old Legion isn't going to cut it.
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Well I was talking about my Legion rework, for obvious reasons.
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Your fix has fundamentally different design goals.
I'm trying to make something as close to the original Legion as possible without bringing back his cheese and lack of interesting counter play, while maximizing lethality as much as is reasonable without breaking him (which as we can see is a very fine line to walk).
You're trying to take the current Legion and improve on his stall potential. That's not invalid or anything, but it's different enough that it's hard so say that one is just better. Stronger maybe, but not better.
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Oh, speaking of current Legion:
I just played a game where not 1, not 2, but 3 Survivors had Sprint Burst. And yet, despite that fact, I was able to get a 4-man hit chain in one use of Frenzy. You know how I got it?
Survivors staying on gens and bum-rushing hooks together. They outright ignored me when I activated Killer Instinct, to the point that even with Sprint Burst, they weren't able to outrun me. They sat around the hook after I hooked someone and bum-rushed it when I activated Killer Instinct. I wasn't able to hit them; they let me hit them.Their tactics were so unbelievably monkey-brained that despite their triple panic button, I was able to chain hits on them. And they have the audacity to yell at me for "camping as Legion".
This is why people still think Legion is OP. This is why they think that being 115 is a justification for Frenzy being slow as molasses. This is why Legion got nerfed into the ground. Because of brainless idiots who don't understand that when the Killer charges at you in a dead sprint, you run the other way.
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That charge up seems kind of bad... looking up? Seriously? You could lose your survivors. Roaring out loud isn't great either... maybe you could make it like the end sound instead of a roar, per se...
Instead you could use the animation he has for ending frenzy at the beginning as well... maybe altered to show them powering up.
I mean, working to a frenzy makes sense, but looking up to do so is ridiculous.
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Causing you to break LoS is the entire point. Everything else is mostly (but not entirely) uberbuffing him from there.
He's faster in Frenzy, faster to exit frenzy, longer duration after a hit (although if that is enough for that situated is currently being debated) and extra utility from deep wounds.
To counterbalance this he has the self stun, his power isn't paused during vaults, pallets are not always vaulted and mending doesn't take as long.
This is compared to old Legion mind you. There are more differences compared to new legion of course.
The sound doesn't HAVE to be a roar, it just needs to be a distinctive audio cue and a roar was the most fitting sound that came to mind.
But yeah, looking up and thus having a serious risk of losing the Survivor if you aren't careful is deliberate. It's supposed to make sure his weaknesses are exploitable so we don't end up with the no skill killer we started with. And thus the buffs are there to both fix his initial power imbalance without addons and counterbalance his weaknesses so that they aren't crippling.
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I mean, my only disagreement was looking up. Legion relies on knowing the initial location of the survivor he's chasing. Everything else is fine.
Maybe looking down like he does when exiting frenzy now is better...
I didn't play him when he was strong though. Could he see scratches/blood?
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I would like to see the following three things done to Legion.
1.) Add a new status effect to the game that applies when Legion frenzy hits a survivor with deep wounds. Status effect: Nerve Damage- All actions performed by the survivor have a 35% penalty until the survivor is fully healed.
The purpose of this is to allow Legion a choice. To either put the survivor in a real time out until healed or to pursue to down. As it stands now, mend and deep wound just doesn't really matter. And hitting a survivor with frenzy active that is already deep wounded just doesn't do anything at which is extremely illogical and counter-intuitive. This fixes that problem.
2.) Extend the duration of Feral Frenzy by 2.5 seconds. The purpose of this is to help fulfill the original design of the killer which is to change targets and apply deep wounds to multiple survivors to slow down the game. The problem with this theory is that Feral Frenzy times out too fast to actually catch multiple targets unless the survivors seriously misplay. I'm not sure 2.5 seconds is even enough really, but it would go a long way to making Legion more viable.
3.) Decrease the cooldown (self stun) when cancelling Feral Frenzy from 4.0 seconds to 3.25 seconds. This is mostly a quality of life change.
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He could see blood only. Bloodhound was one of his "must take" perks.
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Your idea is really good for the new legion. What we're doing on this post is trying to bring old legion's mechanics and counterplay at the same time.
But if the devs don't want to bring old legion back, then your idea is good to increase his lethality.
He still lacks chaining hit potential tho.
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Legion has never been strong.
And he could never see scratch marks, this version and the original version can still see blood however
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Then why did survivors complain again?
Ah, I've always wanted to make a bloodhound build on Legion. : )
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He was insanely consistent. He always 2ks no matter how good the players are. Also his addons let him actually 4k, still with little to no skill involved on either side.
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That would be a problem... survivors having to try to counter that.
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A change like this or something like this is more necessary now more than ever. This is because Legions current mechanics are causing problems with new content and thus is limiting future design space just by existing, and that's on top of him just being not very fun.
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Thie changes are alright, I like you try to bring back old Legion possibly without problems. Idk for sure how that would be ingame but it sounds nice. I would like it. I just wonder, with this changes is Legion at 4.6 M/s at base or again a slow killer?
But overall well done, some ppl write here these changes are not good, Legion just needs a buff on this power and thats it but thats not true. You can buff FF as much as you want, he will always suck when you dont do something to shorten chases at downing. Legion NEED something to down survivors, not to injure. You understand that and made these changes and I appreciate that. Many ppl dont see that and think a killer without power is fine.
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I have been posting ideas similar to these on the forums. With some number tweaks they should be fine.
I dont know why devs dont pick some of these that people create on the forums instead of keeping legion as they are now.
Its just not understandable imo.
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I liked the idea on another post where legion can jump in a locker and come out of another locker as a different legion kinda like a teleport effect. Also why did they never think of giving him the ability to stealth as survivors like in the cinematic?
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Its another good way to do it but they want to keep feral frenzy as it is.
Because people understood the trailer the wrong way(even tho devs couldve done it better). The trailer is only meant to justify the "darkness among us" title because they look very similar to survivors as they are the 100% survivor-like killer.
I agree that they could ve come with a better idea, but disguising as a survivor isnt opressive to swf and would increase the gap between them and solos.
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There are so many ideas on how to make Legion more enjoyable and give him an actual power but none of them so far have actually been tried out/used :/
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Yeah id love for him to take off his mask and act like a survivor then he has to put the mask back on to attack brings a whole new meaning to a stealth killer if swf wasnt so common. I do like the idea of the locker though using it to become another legion and coming out another locker. Like hes called the legion for pete sake.
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