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This great Legion idea solves his problems and also gives him power and enjoyment to play

NullSp3c
NullSp3c Member Posts: 765
edited July 2019 in General Discussions

I was scrolling in The Legion category searching for good ideas to put Legion back in it's fun state. Guess what? These guys found a way to maintain AND even higher the fun in that killer and make him completely balanced. The thing that stunned me more about this post was the fact that everything is VERY WELL justified as you guys can see.

So, Iiterally copied what @NuclearBurrito wrote because it says it all and the discussion was closed because the rework launch of the Legion and I want to know what other players think of it. The explanation is quoted right underneath this post (also written by them).

Add-ons are on the 2nd page due to an error, sorry.

The starting point to make these changes is reverting the update to Legion and deep wounds.

ALL the credit goes to @DarkWo1f997 @dadamek8 @NuclearBurrito, Remember to check them out.

These changes are all intended to go together:

  • Frenzy now has a 0.75 second startup during which time the Legion stops moving and looks straight up while roaring. This can be easily heard by nearby survivors.
  • Vaulting a window or pallet during Frenzy now drains 15% of his power
  • Missed attacks have a 70% cooldown reduction instead of 100%. You will need Unrelenting to get a 100% reduction.
  • Deep Wounds now bleeds out depending on distance to the Killer. The farther the faster. This is not effected by terror radius.

0-16 meters = 0 charges per second

17-24 = 1 charges per second

25-32 = 2 charges per second

32+ = 3 charges per second

A survivor is downed at 0 charges and starts with 60 when hit the first time (affected by addons) and will not go below 10 charges while mending. If it is already below 10 it will instead just pause.

  • Stabbing a survivor already in Deep wounds drains 50% of the REMAINING duration rounding up with a minimum of 15 charges removed.
  • Frenzy must be at least 60% recharged in order to be activated (9 seconds of charge from 0%)
  • M1 attacks no longer drain frenzy
  • Frenzy now drains at half speed during Killer Instinct
  • Vaulting a pallet is now only available during Killer Instinct (you can still fast vault windows whenever).
  • Legion now moves at 5.6 M/S during Frenzy (140% up from 132%)
  • Killer instinct allows the Legion to cancel Frenzy with 33% less fatigue time (2 seconds instead of 3). This only triggers if Frenzy is canceled manually and not if you hit a survivor with Deep Wounds or let the timer run out.
  • Mending now has Skill Checks but takes 5 seconds less by default (10 down from 15)
  • Legion can now preform break actions at 150% during Frenzy
  • Killer Instinct's tracking is now aura and thus is hidden by lockers, generators and distortion.
  • Exposed or Injured survivors start with half the charges when put into Deep wounds from frenzy (30 charges instead of 60 normally) this does not stack.


Post edited by NullSp3c on
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Comments

  • NullSp3c
    NullSp3c Member Posts: 765

    Did you really read it all in 4 minutes?

    The idea is that the Skill Cap is Ginormus to both sides.

  • NuclearBurrito
    NuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    For the record in a chase it resolves like having the pre-nerf cooldown addons base kit once you are in Killer Instinct.

    2 seconds is enough for the Survivor to get an 8 meter head start which can then be covered in 20 seconds. That time is lowered by lunge range, bloodlust, the fact that he doesn't go to a dead stop on stun ect. But while assuming that none of those factors apply it's 20 seconds.

  • NuclearBurrito
    NuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    Thank you for reposting this <3

    I never wanted my original post to be closed

  • NuclearBurrito
    NuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    @LCGaster the the entire change is specifically tailored to solve his problems:

    Specifically lacking counter play and lacking kill power.

    Besides those 2 what problems are you referring to? Or are you contesting that this solves those 2 problems? In which case please elaborate.

  • NullSp3c
    NullSp3c Member Posts: 765
    edited July 2019

    @NuclearBurrito

    No problem, I was really disappointed when it said it was closed, that was why I reposted it.

    I just don't agree with the mend timer that is 60 seconds, it is too big imo. The balanced value should be determined by only playing because on paper it seems good but in gameplay you'll see that it is too long.

    Either way the post was too old so there are more people now concerned about legion and maybe they will help bringing him back to his fun state.

    Imo there should be no cooldown add-ons or Frank's Mixtape with these changes.They would be too strong and hard to balance. Completely reworked would be the right way.

  • NullSp3c
    NullSp3c Member Posts: 765
    edited July 2019

    @Nobu I have seen you in a lot of Legion's discussions and I see that you are passionate too for this killer and I want to hear your opinion about these guys' idea.

    Post edited by NullSp3c on
  • NuclearBurrito
    NuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    It's 60 charges not 60 seconds.

    The exact amount of time is variable. It's between 60 seconds and 20 seconds depending on distance.

    I'm fine with addon reworks. Franks actually could effect the minimum charge drain.

  • NullSp3c
    NullSp3c Member Posts: 765

    Sorry, you actually said it well and I ended by mixing them up nevermind.

  • AStupidMonkeyy
    AStupidMonkeyy Member Posts: 718

    @NullSp3c Of course I read it. It sucks. Why would I want a slower mend time? Just make it 20 seconds and make it so they can't do interactions except windows and pallets. Increase the vault speed for both to what it use to be. Make a self stun only take half the power away and make it only 3 seconds. Now Legion has legit stall, he isn't slow as ######### and can get a down without having to wait ages to do anything. What you propose is a lot of tedious ######### that doesn't actually do much but seems to add nerfs.

  • NuclearBurrito
    NuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    Literally no one likes taking the time to mend. So the less time we make them spend mending while making sure it still works as an ability the better.

    This has an even shorter self stun and doesn't take away any of his power just to stop using it.

    The nerfs are all countered by important buffs that would otherwise make him OP on their own.

  • ReikoMori
    ReikoMori Member Posts: 3,333

    I remember this from when it was posted. Some of it okay, but for my preferences I don't see it being what I want out of Legion. I think pre patch Legion is the right way to go in general, but remove deep wounds from their kit entirely and transition to a stacking on hit effect. As a status its fine, but Deep Wounds being used for both BT and Legion effectively ruins the point of it as a killer based power. To a degree I feel the same with Killer Instinct. It was a much more consistent and reliable tracking tool till they nerfed Legion and then altered it again when giving it to Ghostface.

  • NullSp3c
    NullSp3c Member Posts: 765

    The deep wounds effect on legion was made so that legion can't instadown someone by just hitting them once, then run at 5.28 movement speed and simply down them.

    I said in the start to remember that this is suppose to be applied if the rework is undone on par with the changes to deep wounds that changed with legion. Having that in mind, legion can see the mend bar and reduce it by attacks. This post makes so that you can't exploit the mend timer.

    Killer Instinc is the same, they should revert the change to how it was or to an aura effect like explained above and by being an aura, gives counterplay with perks and lockers.

    The power is still good at chases and even better at hitting multiple survivors, increasing his movement speed to maintain his theme of agile and quick.

    Is too strong to vault pallets when tunneling someone with the power, that is why you need to enter killer instinct to do so and that actually helps chaining hits.

    Also gives mending actual interactiveness.

  • Odimm
    Odimm Member Posts: 33

    While the changes are interesting, I too would like to see them fix some of the stuff first before a complete rework. I believe the speed needs to change (while keeping the duration) + the deep wounds timer needs to tick while someone is repairing, even in the terror radius. #fixlegion

  • NullSp3c
    NullSp3c Member Posts: 765
    edited July 2019

    In the start I said that these changes would only apply if legion was reverted to his old state and then start from there, which means they will maintain their high movement speed as before and, with the mentioned changes, they will double the duration (that was previously 6 seconds) when you put a survivor in deep wounds(doubles to 12) so it helps you chain your attacks so it is even bigger than now that is 10 seconds.

    And the new mechanic with the deep wounds is actually pretty good so the survivors always drop their mend timer and have to mend when away and no exploit is allowed.

  • NullSp3c
    NullSp3c Member Posts: 765
    edited July 2019

    @NoMitherNo_Problem i saw your comment on a post about Legion and it seemed like you liked to calculate the distances and stuff. And having in mind that math is really important here, what do you think about this idea?

  • The_Trapper
    The_Trapper Member Posts: 186

    For me, it feels like the problem with Legion is his ability, more specifically what it does upon hitting a survivor. I have always viewed it as a way to apply pressure to survivors by forcing them to mend, but it just seems like the time to mend without add-ons is too short to make it worth while.

    I like the idea, my only change would be to make the Legion do a short animation with the knife instead of roaring, perhaps throwing it up in the air and catching it with the blade facing downwards.

  • NuclearBurrito
    NuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    I see no problem with a knife toss up. Might be harder to animate but whatever.

  • NullSp3c
    NullSp3c Member Posts: 765

    Why not both? They both seem really cool together and the roaring makes sound so that the m/s buuf to the frenzy doesn't become uncounterable when the survivors are doing a gen and don't know where you are.

  • NuclearBurrito
    NuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    @Nullsp3c it was actually designed as the otherway around.

    The roar is required on it's own merits to create juking potential for the Survivors thus causing mindgames and making the Legions downsides meaningful while the movement speed increase is counterbalancing the self stun for use in movement.

    Old Frenzy: 31.68m over 6 seconds.

    New Frenzy: 50m over 10 seconds.

    This frenzy: 33.6m over 6.75 seconds.

    The average movement speed is about 5 M/S even though it's technically faster.

    That being said if you actually do hit them then the refilled bar will give you the full effective 5.6 M/S with 67.2m over 12 seconds.

    In any case just understand that with 5.28 you would only close the gap by 4.68 meters, so I increased the speed a bit so it's a relatively reasonable 6.6 meters which is pretty close to what it was before (7.68 meters) or 19.2 meters after you hit someone which is good to deal with Survivors that scatter and means that anyone you can see with Killer Instinct (remember 24 meter TR) can usually be reached even if they are running.

  • NuclearBurrito
    NuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    Just some more math regarding stuff:

    Vaulting a window will drain the durration by 0.9 seconds (6*0.15) and also takes 0.9 seconds to do which means each vault reduces the total travel distance by 10 meters.

    This means there is a maximum of 4 vaults per frenzy and gives vaulting a meaningful cost without it technically slowing you down.

    Breaking a pallet in frenzy is 50% faster than normal but that's again 1.8 seconds of drain, the difference being that unlike with window vaulting (or pallet vaulting with KI) you actually do directly slowdown.

    Specifically the survivor will travel 7.2 Meters in that time. If you activate your power first (and thus have the 0.75 stun) it's 10.2 meters which is actually still less than breaking the pallet normally would be.

    Vaulting during Killer Instinct is instead a 0.9 total drain since the drain is cut in half. This makes it identical to pre-patch legion, but is balanced by the fact that you can't take advantage of this in order to tunnel someone since you need to have already hit someone without deep wounds in order to get the reduced drain.

  • miaasma
    miaasma Member Posts: 911

    i stopped reading when i saw the "looks up at the sky and roars" suggestion because i could not stop laughing

  • NullSp3c
    NullSp3c Member Posts: 765

    These are the motives that made me choose this, of all ideas, the better one BY FAR.

  • NullSp3c
    NullSp3c Member Posts: 765

    Yeah, it was funny when i first read it too, but believe me, continue reading and tell me if there is counterplay or not. I saw you commenting a lot on other legion posts and you said that there was no counterplay when a legion tunnels you, which i partially agree.

    Off topic* i think you were in the last Noob3 video.

  • NuclearBurrito
    NuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    When I said that the Legion can totally maintain his old identity while having counterplay this is what specific changes I think would be needed to accomplish that goal.

  • HatCreature
    HatCreature Member Posts: 3,298

    I like this change, this brings back the OG Legion but acknowledges their problems. Legion can't moonwalk and force them to bleedout because it's based on Distance, Legion needs to let them go for it to bleed out faster and then catching up gives them time Mend but also lets you get in closer.

    Taking away the 100% cooldown for missed attacks was an interesting choice, if you miss you still get a penalty but it's not as bad as it could be and promotes players to actually TRY to hit them.

    Giving Legion a roar animation to start the Feral Frenzy is a fantastic choice aesthetically and mechanically. I never understood why it was called Feral Frenzy but this makes it look like an actual rage run stabbing frantically and it gives the Survivor time to start running. Turning Killer Instinct to Auras gives Survivors a chance to hide in lockers when they see someone has DW or perhaps use the Gen tactic and just hide behind a Gen like everyone does with BBQ.

    The most important part about this rework is changing their speed to 5.6 up from 5.4 I think. That's what really makes this work in my opinion, OG Legion was slow and they NEEDED their power to down people, they designed to spam attack people with FF because they were slow and that was the problem. But if Legion is a normal speed Killer they can CHOOSE to let them bleed out or to chase them and down them with M1 which could be faster, it allows the player to choose how to play and it also gives the Survivors a chance to react to how the Killer is chasing them.


    THIS is the Legion we need, this Legion is the one I fell in love with, the adrenaline fueled psycho stabbers chasing people and screaming all the time. This is the change we need.

  • NuclearBurrito
    NuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    Also the M1 not draining thing that no one noticed because there is literally no reason why it should be there in the first place.

    It doesn't interact with the rest of his mechanics or his chase mechanics so I can't even bring it up with the counterplay thing because it adds literally nothing to the game which is just so stupid. And thus removing it doesn't effect the game either except in that it makes slug builds not as #########.

  • NullSp3c
    NullSp3c Member Posts: 765
    edited July 2019

    Yeah, unlike some Legion players/mains (even tho they are a minority) i wanted to have the old legion theme back, spamming the hit button and reducing the mend bar with high ms like in a real frenzy. BUT has counterplay,

  • NuclearBurrito
    NuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    So apparently movement speed during fatigue time is 2.7 M/S

    This means that the Survivors will gain 2.6 meters on you when you cancel Frenzy out of Killer instinct and 3.9 meters canceling normally. This was already true with old legion while using/not using the cooldown addons stacked.

    This is about 5 seconds worth of distance btw.

    Since this is essentially just base kit pre-patch cooldown legion this video is a good example of how that particular aspect plays out:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf1qiyt4nO0

  • NuclearBurrito
    NuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807
    edited July 2019

    If anyone is wondering the in game description would look something like this:

    Feral Frenzy

    Legion has a Frenzy Power Gauge that builds up over time. The power, Feral Frenzy, can be activated by tapping the Power button. When activate, the power drains rapidly and the power ends when the gauge is empty, triggering an extended recovery fatigue.

    When activating Feral Frenzy, The Legion stops and screams while entering a deadly rage. While the power is active:

    • The Legion sprints faster than base movement speed.
    • The Legion can vault windows at an increased speed but doing so drains the Killers power slightly
    • The Legion breaks pallets and generator tremendously faster.
    • Survivors scratch marks are hidden from the Killer's view.
    • Missed attacks have a reduced cooldown.

    While Feral Frenzy is active hitting a Survivor who does not have deep wounds will injure them if they are not already injured, apply deep wounds onto them, refills your entire power gauge and activates killer instinct. While Killer instinct is active:

    • The Legions power is drained half as fast
    • The aura of survivors within the Killers terror radius who do not have the deep wounds status are revealed
    • The Legions may also vault pallets, draining his power slightly, but may not break them
    • The recovery fatigue when canceling the Killers power manually is significantly reduced.

    When Feral Frenzy is active hitting a Survivor who is currently affected by the deep wounds status effect:

    • Reduces the Survivors bleed out timer by half or by a minimum amount.
    • Depletes the Killers power gauge and ends the power immediately
    Post edited by NuclearBurrito on
  • NullSp3c
    NullSp3c Member Posts: 765

    You're the creator of this idea so i need your approvement on this.

    2 things i want to mention:

    About the post:

    1st: The number of charges cut down when hitting a sruvivor with deep wounds while in feral frenzy should be increased from 10 to 15 so that you need to stab the survivor only 3 additional times(with the hit applying deep wounds makes it 4 hits) instead of 4 (or 5 in total). This is balanced because, unless you have killer instinct on, you can't vault pallets.

    About the mentioned comment where you give the look of the power description in-game:

    2nd: You said "vault pallets" instead of "vaulting windows" on "while the power is active" and this makes people confused.

  • NuclearBurrito
    NuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    Oops. Typo, it's supposed to say vaulting windows.

    Anyways, having it be 4 hits is by design. The whole point for having the hits work in the first place is so that he can get downs by leaving a survivor and then coming back while they are mending in order to finish them off. And not so that you can repeatedly use Frenzy in order to down them.

    While you can still do that, having it be 4 hits still even with all of the limitations I gave it makes it not problematic. Especially since injured survivors need one less hit.

    Plus Frank's still needs to do SOMETHING ;)

  • NullSp3c
    NullSp3c Member Posts: 765
    edited July 2019

    ..

    Post edited by NullSp3c on
  • NuclearBurrito
    NuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    8% is not slightly.

    Anyways I'd imagine we could have more unique addons than that.

    For example an addon that removes the drain on Frenzy vaults.

    And can you please use numbers instead of words? How much is considerably exactly? It's not consistent in this game.

  • NullSp3c
    NullSp3c Member Posts: 765
    edited July 2019

    I had those two ideas while writing the add-ons, give me around 10 minutes to give you exact numbers.

    I actually don't know the exact values cause it doesn't say how much moderately is on e.g. filthy blade.

  • NullSp3c
    NullSp3c Member Posts: 765
    edited July 2019

    So... I'll put it as resumed as possible.

    Both Blades: Reverted to the old values.

    Cool-down: The same as before, but just to when hitting a survivor that is already in deep wounds or if the power ends by itself(not manually tho).

    The pins: The common one reduces it from 60% to 54%, the uncommon one from 60 to 44% and the green one from 60 to 34%.

    The duration: Old values but reduces the movement speed from 5.6ms to 5.28ms.

    Stab Wounds Sudy: I don't know the doctor's values in the tier 3 madness but with "slightly increases the skill checks difficulty" i mean that it reduces the skill checks size by 15%( i know it isn't slightly but they are TREMENDOUSLY difficult skill checks so it they are very small. And increase the chances of getting a skill check pretty much like unnerving presence BUT i don't know the skill check chance at tier 3 madness so i want it to increase by a good amount.

    Frank's Mixtape: They suffer from a 15% speed penalty. (I'm not that satisfied with this add-on btw, even being Ultra Rare).

    or

    Frank's Mixtape:

    • Vaulting while in Feral Frenzy no longer drains the power bar.
    • Survivors mending within your terror radius are revealed.


    Post edited by NullSp3c on
  • NuclearBurrito
    NuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    Blades: Fine

    Cooldown: Fine

    Pins: Fine

    Duration: I'm not so sure about having it decrease the speed by that much. Stacking them would make it 4.96 M/S. Can it reduce the MS by 0.16 instead?

    SWS: Is skill check difficulty really that powerful? Hitting skillchecks aren't that hard even when made more difficult than usual. If it were up to me I would make it increase the passive DW drain when more than 16 meters away.

    Franks: Maybe. Might be OP.

  • NullSp3c
    NullSp3c Member Posts: 765

    Duration: I forgot about the stacking part, I'll make it so that it can't stack the debuff.

    SWS: Actually increasing the passive DW drain in addition doesn't sound bad.

    Frank's Mixtape would be in a good position. Inside the terror radius, people know when you are coming and it works pretty much like nurses calling and doesn't let people cheese mending by staying very close to you. Given that it is a Ultra Rare add-on it is in a pretty good spot.

  • NullSp3c
    NullSp3c Member Posts: 765

    Should I put this thread in the "general discussions" page? The devs almost never see the killer forum.

  • NullSp3c
    NullSp3c Member Posts: 765

    I will put the add-ons too.

    Should I change the 10 charges to 15?

  • OMagic_ManO
    OMagic_ManO Member Posts: 3,278

    This is pre Legion rework idea, you need new Legion.

  • NullSp3c
    NullSp3c Member Posts: 765
    edited July 2019

    They can revert him and then apply these changes, and it seems the better way according to A LOT of legion players.

    Read the post and you'll see that these changes do what the devs wanted Legion to do, but better and with more fun.

    The Legion patch was just a desperate way to change Legion without thinking.

  • NuclearBurrito
    NuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    If people think it would be a good idea I could do another legion fix that uses new legion as a base instead of old legion.

    I'd be hard but I'm not going to just say it's impossible.