Tunneling
Tunneling can have a BP or rank decreation or whatever, but Borrowed Time shouldn't even be a perk, borrowed time should be an implementation to the game as base for every survivor to combat tunneling killers. Just an idea.
Comments
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Agreed some perks shouldn't be perks at all should instead be normal gameplay mechanic.
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No to all of it. Tuneling is a way for weaker killers to gain map pressure. How about a reward for not tunneling?
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If survivors are ever slowed with an additional objective or just slower repair speed, then yes, BT being built in should absolutely be on the table (amongst other things). Until that happens though, I would say no. At this point, both sides are stuck addressing their issues with perks, so it wouldn’t be fair to help one side’s in the base game and not the other. That’s the issue I have with everyone who just wants the survivor side nerfed. Address both or neither. Only fair.
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No, no, no, and more no.
Tunneling is a LEGITIMATE STRATEGY used by killers to eliminate a target from the game. Once one player is eliminated, you can start snowballing easy. Like this:
-Down and hook, which forces a save.
-Find the last person on gens. Start chasing.
-Down and hook.
Rinse and repeat.
No penalties to tunnelers. It's a perfectly balanced strategy.
"But wait!" You say. "What about the Survivors having fun?"
News flash: I. Do. Not. Care. Whether. You. Have. Fun. It is not my job. My job is to kill you and reap the rewards. Nothing else.
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I mean if you are trying to make an argument, it shouldn't be so biased. Yeah, I think we all understand that killers have one objective, and I totally agree, they need to down, kill and get their rewards. Totally man, I respect it, but some "legitimate strategies" aren't always the best ones to utilize. Based on the community, a good portion doesn't enjoy that killers can use this.
News flash: Taking the fun out of people will just make them become more eager to close the application, because people just don't like it, thus a slow decrease in players in a game you love. A good portion of my friends have given up solely because of that type of playstyle. Another thing, I don't think you notice is that "Borrowed time" was added to combat tunnelers and campers. The developers themselves do not encourage such strategy. Now it's there for you to utilize, and you can use it but it really is demotivating to the side, and if I have to be honest, I'm amazed you don't feel some guilt. Though yes, it is a valid strategy, just not like able.
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At the current state of the game, no. Killers are at such a big disadvantage, they can't win even when they tunnel, as long as the survivors don't play bad.
Also, the game already provides you with a variety of tools which help you against getting tunneled.
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I couldn't care less whether my strategies are likeable. If you close the application, there are still on average a few other thousand people to play with. If I want you dead I will make that happen. And oftentimes, Tunneling IS the best strategy to utilize. It eliminates one person, which does wonders to stop the gen blitzkrieg that happens every single match.
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Valid point, but I still don't think you get the main point; The game has been decreasing in popularity ever since, or kept a stability. No one is denying the point on the present, I totally agree with you and I don't think you knew that. I'm talking long-term, and how such strategy can affect the game in general.
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i hope you enjoyed me looping you and laughing at you while I tbag
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If you guys don't like how I play, then just get some thicker skin. It's as simple as that. And that "decrease in popularity" lie has been disproven multiple times.
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I do. I'll just phase around the pallet and hit you on hook with my STBFL. Have fun being tunneled!
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Don't think you read my post. I said or.. stable. Also, no one is complaining on how you play, we are talking about how we could combat it and what it means for the future of the game. I was never quite sure, but I acknowledged the players. Never I said I had concrete stats, I made the reference in what it could mean in the future, not right now. Please. 🤦
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Popularity and strategy have nothing to do with each other. My point still stands. If people don't like my strategies, then grow a pair and move on.
Edit: Once again, the future of the game does not ride on tunneling. It is an acceptable strategy.
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My point still stands. No one is disproving your or whoever tunnels, where are you getting that idea from, people like me are totally fine with it, just taking account the playerbase psychology. Believe me, games like Overwatch who suffer from metas and bad strategies, I don't hear or play it as often.
EDIT: Of course it does! It will decide if players enjoy their experience playing in games, it's an acceptable strategy but is it enjoyable for the others? Because others also don't care with what the counterpart does the majority of the time. The playerbase and balancing define the general health of the game.
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I tend to align with the Killer Mains more (best to admit bias early on) but I can see where you're coming from with the complaints of tunneling. Excluding the obvious bait you've been arguing with most killers don't like tunneling much more than survivors. The problem isn't that tunneling is a strategy, it's that it's one of the consistent ways to garuntee success. The fact that, no matter the situation, you have more to gain by tunneling (even with your borrowed time suggestion, that's still one less player) is the problem.
Punishing a killer won't fix that. Making a killer put slightly more effort into it than they would otherwise also won't fix that (the borrowed time baseline suggestion). And if we were to go to the extreme and make survivors immortal for an extended time to protect them from this, assuming the survs didn't abuse this immortality (they would, everyone abuses an advantage. Otherwise this tunneling conversation wouldn't occur), it would only highlight the initial reason some killers choose to lean towards this playstyle. There aren't any rewards for playing nice. There isn't any reason to slowly kill off the survivors collectively. You always benefit more in the long run strategically by downing someone as quickly as possible or removing someone as quickly as possible.
You shouldn't make the game harder for killers than it already is, but instead highlight a more friendly playstyle with rewards. More points for chasing different survivors, a buff to the killer or a debuff to survivors if they don't focus one person down.
And in fairness, I feel the same way about what's going on with survivors. The biggest complaint killers have is gen rushing but there is zero reward for not genrushing. If you want to win, that is the best strategy. In turn they should be rewarded more for playing in a more interractive way. You can't remove toxicity with a big stick, that'll just breed more and invite people to abuse it (farming the baseline borrowed constantly) you have to make the non toxic playstyles stand out as a better option. Positive reinforcement of good gameplay rather than negative reinforcement of all gameplay.
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Sorry about my wall of text by the way.
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Well worth it, just finished reading it. Sounds good and I totally agree!
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And then u get an omegablink Nurse with ebony mori camping from the distance charged up and immediately downs and moris you.
I get what you try to say, it's need sometimes. But it gets to much abused by others just to have an ez game
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Disagree. Borrowed Time being innate would just make something survivors are doing WRONG into something they're doing right. Survivors should fix themselves, not have the game fix their mistakes for them. Tunneling is only a thing because survivors without Borrowed Time unhook right in front of the killer's face whether he's camping or not. There are easy solutions to this. Don't unhook right in front of the killer's face, and bring Borrowed Time if you're going to unhook. Otherwise don't unhook and let someone else do it, or at LEAST bring We'll Make It, then wait for the killer to leave, unhook and heal to full health. You just saved your teammate without a misplay which led to neither of you getting hit afterward, Congratulations on playing correctly.
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Well, I think we should say the same thing about killers, then. The times I have seen killers playing with BBQ & Chili and NOED are inumerable, and those players are effectively letting the game play for them. What you are saying is that Borrowed Time makes right something survivors are doing wrong. Yet, doesn't the need for NOED mean that the killer couldn't hook survivors BEFORE it activated, which means he played WRONGLY? I personally don't really care about BT and have rarely used it, but tunneling is another thing. Killers keep calling it a strategy, but it really isn't. A strategy is something that requires thinking, planning. A strategy would be that of making a killer chase you in an area where you know there are no available hooks, a strategy would be slugging a survivor to avoid the hatch spawn or to make him give away his fellow survivors' position. Tunneling is just chasing the same guy until you finally get him (and, thanks to Bloodlust, you WILL get him). It doesn't require planning, it doesn't require thinking. Thus, it is NOT a strategy. If anything, the right term would be cheap. The same, on the other hand, could be said about gen rushing, but that has an added variable, that of teamplay and (eventually) communication. In a premade team of even two people, one could be luring away the killer, while the other guy (who knows he is doing so) will focus on a gen or on totems. And yes, there are too many people who unhook in front of the killer just for the sake of points. I proposed a solution to this long ago, which would be that of adding the option to press a key to avoid the chance of being unhooked when you don't want to (features could be added like a differently coloured aura).
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######### your strategy. Its boring.
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I started to do this:
If you unhook in front of my face, I will try to punish you for this garbage play.
If you have BT, fine, I will mostly not tunnel. But if you don't and you hook rush me, I will just hook that same guy again.
Don't hook rush, Killer can punish the unhooker and whole team will be in worse situation.
I faced many Survivors rushing my hooks without borrow time and they killed their teammembers by this farm. You feed Killer.
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no. thats WAY too strong
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You can't just take one of the strongest perks and make it base kit.
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Can't believe so much people consider tunneling as a "strategy"... It's just exploiting the altruism of solo survivors, low effort skill curve for an easy win, thanks to toxic streamers like Truetalent showing those kind of techniques and teaching people how to play "optimal".
Lel.
Op BT would be too strong as a base kit, especially for swf cause that would free a perk slot for more meta perks. But if its for solo only why not.
Instead I think a Kindred as base would help.
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I have the theory that people who complains about being tunneled are also the ones that get shooted and killed first in First Person Shooters games or is attacked first by other players in Real Time Strategy Games. You can't complain there, is that right?
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I had people call me a tunneler and my response has been "you were just tea baggin and flashlight clicking so much i thought you wanted my undivided attention". So many people will try to get the killers attention and then complain when they get. Sometimes tunneling comes a killers lack of skill or knowledge. Sometimes killers are just being bad word. Sometimes i get called a tunneler because i just happen to run into that survivor. How do you punish the killer that are just being bad word vs those that are subject to chance, new or giving the survivor what they wanted?
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Tunneling (i guess you mean chasing one person consistently) will get killer gen rushed unless survivor that was tunneled played really bad
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This guy knows what's up.
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Nice. Thanotophobia should be base too, just saying.
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Lol...You can't penalize someone playing the game the way they think they can win. For some players, tunneling can be a strategy (i.e. kill off one player to pressure gen rushes or tunneling a survivor as an obsession to gain perk benefits). Your suggestion is equivalent to suggesting that bhvr penalizes survivors for bragging at pallets.
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Why is it ok for survivors to tunnel gens but killers can't tunnel survivors? Oh yeah, it gets in the way of their "fun".
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Lmao dude what do you expect Survivors to do
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Tunneling is a viable strategy until survivors start to realize the game isn't fun when you're being targeted and move on to something better and you'll be twiddling your thumbs in the lobby thinking "Why are the queues so bad BHVR?!"
If you want the lifetime of this game to last longer you should be thinking about the fun of other people. I play fair because I like the game and want to be able to play it for many years to come.
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Considering it's been 3 years and it's still a problem I doubt tunneling is gonna be the death of DbD.
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Lmao dude what do you expect killers to do?
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The last person who t-bagged at a pallet didn't catch on to the fact that I was running STBFL. ;)
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Been there, tried that. You're just going to get botched at by killer mains for making this post.
If they cared about the integrity of their game they wouldve added this necessary mechanic years ago.
BHVR doesnt give a ######### about your experience mr survivor. Right? @Peanits @not_Queen
Explain why this isnt in the game yet.
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Food for thought: If a viable strategy is causing players to leave the game, whose fault is it in the end? The party employing the viable strategy, the party on the receiving end, or the devs for allowing such a strategy to exist?
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I'm not saying I'm against tunneling (though in most cases it's not a very good tactic unless you're already losing), but like. Killer has other ways of playing besides tunneling at least. Survivors goals is straight up JUST generators. The concept of "tunneling gens" is blatantly stupid.
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And this is a sweaty killer main at his finest ladies and gentlemen. Probably not even good at the game.
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Tunneling isn’t a strategy. It’s a cheap way to play that requires little to no effort.
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"Not even good at the game"
I'm sure you're going to ask for proof of my 1000+ hours and rank 1 killer?
Remove the shroud of the Survivor rulebook from your eyes. Trust me, it'll be worth it. Quick and ruthless wins.
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I don’t want to see any buffs to Borrowed Win until something is done about how the person unhooking can use it as their own second chance. The Survivor being rescued is a highly vulnerable damsel in distress; they should not be given the option to use themselves as an invincible meat shield for the person that’s supposed to be protecting them without any form of consequence for either Survivor. In its current state, Borrowed Time encourages brainless farming more than actual altruism because it effectively protects both Survivors from the unhooker’s reckless, rank 20 plays, and it’s just another broken second-chance Perk to add to the Survivor meta.
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Cool. Hope you enjoy survivors hopping in lockers with DS and making you wait it out. Cause that's a LEGITIMATE STRATEGY too.
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You say that but gen rushing is a LIGITIMATE STRATEGY, and you're probably one of those killers who whine about it wanting it nurfed to the ground for being 'unfair'
Killers are definitely just as bad as, if not worse than 'entitled survivors' as you call them
"But wait" you say. "What about killers having fun"
News flash: I. Do. Not. Care. Whether. You. Have. Fun. It is not my job. My job is to complete gens and reap in the rewards. Nothing else.
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Alright, firstly, I would like to say I am not coming off as rude, too-blunt, dismissive, etc. I am here to give you my opinion on this ^,^
I want to start off by saying why tunneling is a valid strategy. Tunneling is used to ensure pressure mid-game and EGC/end-game. Mid-game, 2 or less gens is what I consider mid-game/early late, you often need to tunnel someone dead in order to apply that significant amount of pressure. Four survivors are a lot to handle (using a lot loosely of course), when gens are close, getting close, or are getting done optimally. I tunnel someone in this scenario, because I need pressure, and three survivors are easier to juggle than four. I can apply more pressure on gens and the survivors, when I have one less to deal with. However, you lose pressure when you tunnel a first-hook survivor dead -- and I know killers do that, but I digress. In addition to applying pressure via tunneling this way, end-game/EGC tunneling is required to ensure your kill, especially when you don't have kills to begin with. In addition to that, you have a chance of hook-trading survivors, so that is immensely beneficial towards you as the killer.
I understand why tunneling can be frustrating. Especially when you're tunneled from first-to-dead hook. You don't get to play and lose pips/points/etc. However, this isn't reason enough to make BT basekit. BT is a strong perk, and rightfully so. As mentioned beforehand, the above tactics are viable tactics, and are tactics in which the killer has in their toolkit. Tools that they are and should be able to use as needed to apply pressure. BT can and will easily devoid the killer of that pressure by making the other player temporarily immune -- gives them an extra health state if you will. Having this basekit with no other changes will create problems. There's no maybe, no if -- it will create problems.
Every "meta" perk has potential to be abused. By abuse I mean the same that is done with current DS. People will have BT and the killer could leave them be, go after someone else, and the BT person comes and interrupts a potential down for the killer -- a down that wasn't even related to the BT person, wasn't a tunnel by no means. I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, it's a valid strategy. As survivor, I do it now with current BT.
Killers have to snowball in order to win, for the most part. Snowballing is, in a way, their only means to "counter" (using counter loosely here) the fast gen speeds -- and we know even with the changes recently made, that they are still fast. As Hag, I am GUARANTEED to lose two generators. I've gotten to the point where I'm not bothered by it, because I rely and have to, on snowballing.
Personally, some perks need to remain as perks, because of their insane value and potential. As well, I've always seen BT as more of a counter to camping than to tunneling -- always seen DS to be a tunneling counter. But that's just my view on it. I'm a firm believer in a change made to one side needs to be met/immediately followed by a similar change to the other side. Changes on one side can cause more imbalance, and right now, balance is key.
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It is; I've done it myself. I just grab them, eat the stun, phase over to them, and down them 10 seconds later. Easy.
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Gen rushing is legitimate. It is my job to punish you for it by tunneling. And it is your job to punish me by doing gens.
It's the circle of life. Or death, when I get my 5th DH stack.
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You ever think that tunnelling might just drive people away from the game since, I dunno, THEY CAN'T FECKING PLAY! There is zero point me loading into a match when a wiseguy like you just hardcore tries to delete me and then say "It'S a LeGiTiMaTe StRaTeGy!"
Same goes for face-camping.
I'm just going to say the same thing that I do to all campers and tunnellers. MAYBE using some empathy and playing nice with others might just extend the life of the game. Sometimes doing the selfless thing gains more net-worth than the selfish thing.
Maybe then BT and DS will become less popular after camping and tunnelling disappear.
And to answer your question @TAG I'd say that it's both the people using it and the devs for legitimising it. I don't care if DS and BT are added to stop it, not everyone has access to those perks for every game, and if a killer wants to, they'll power through those perks.
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