If you're going to rework Nurse, then rework SWF
SWF is the opposite side of the same coin as Nurse. The following phrases describe them both:
- not all of them are that good
- it's what they bring into the match that makes them oppressive
- too OP when played optimally
It would be incredibly unfair to rework one and not rework the other. Especially considering the reason was the amount of feedback and observation about imbalance. SWF has those exact same things.
And I'm really tired of this bullshit argument that it would be too hard to change SWF without hurting solo survivors. Either I'm way smarter than everybody else, or it's actually pretty damn easy when you stop to actually think about it. Here's a list of possible changes that would help balance SWF groups without hurting solos.
- Only one of each item type allowed per swf group. That would stop full insta heal squads or full toolbox genrush squads and so on
- Limit the max rarity of items/addons/offerings swf groups are allowed to bring in based on how many people are in the group
- Divide the bloodpoint gains by the number of people in an swf group. People who truly want to play for fun wouldn't be as deterred from playing swf, but people who are trying to play optimally (the ones who are truly oppressive) will be more motivated to play solo
- Make it to where if one swf group member is hooked, the rest of the people in the swf group have a reduced generator repair speed. The full rush the hook squads that aren't a problem wouldn't be affected, but the optimal easily only send one person while having the rest keep working at max efficiency squads will have their effects lessened.
- SWF group members can all exit the same gate together within the first 15 seconds of it opening, but after that, each time a group member leaves, the entity blocks that gate for 15 seconds for the other members of the same swf group. With how easy it is for swf groups to do all the gens and coordinate the final unhook, this would force them to make a more dangerous choice end game since they can't all just run the same direction while body blocking for each other.
- Disable certain killer aura reveal perks for swf groups.
I wouldn't say you should do everything on that list, but if you pick and choose wisely, you can help limit the oppressive play of swf groups that play optimally.
Comments
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Nurse is not being reworked*
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Punishing a team for working together sounds like the most [bad word] thing I’ve ever heard.
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I agree with what you said but from the suggestions only the first 2 are reasonable. The rest just hurts for no reason casual SWF.
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They’re changing her add ons and slightly nerfing her base. This doesn’t call for a full swf rework/nerf.
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Plus, chances of full team swf is very rare, so many risks too. Most teams are either new people getting in or teams like mine who play just for fun and guarantee no death on first or second hook. :)
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It's exactly the same thing as punishing a killer for doing their job. If you weren't so wildly biased, you'd realize this is about balance. This doesn't punish survivors for working together. This helps make optimal swf gameplay less oppressive.
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Can you all just stop focusing in the obvious absurd suggestions, and discuss the actual good ones?
Only one of each item type allowed per swf group. That would stop full insta heal squads or full toolbox genrush squads and so on
Limit the max rarity of items/addons/offerings swf groups are allowed to bring in based on how many people are in the group
Put your egos aside and discuss the important ######### that benefit the game
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I’m not biased. But a SWF or a random surviving team can have the opportunity to do the exact same thing. Both can all bring insta-heals, toolboxes, DS, adrenaline, dead hard, borrowed time, kindred. Any perk that a SWF can bring, so can a random solo team.
a SWF can easily be bad or even mess up and lose.
so why punish a SWF team for actually working together and bringing on good teamwork? You don’t see call of duty kids who play search in destroy crying for a nerf because the other team who is using mics is telling each other where the enemies are.
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Those aren’t good suggestions. Nobody should be punished for playing with their friends. This game is already kinda boring and hard enough playing solo.
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Why punish the Nurse for killing survivors? Oh wait, what's that? They're not punishing the nurse; they're just making her more fair to play against. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN TO SWF!!! It's the bias of entitled survivors that blinds them from seeing that obvious reality. Any rework of swf similar to the rework of the nurse is "punishing teamwork".
And while obviously solos can bring anything an swf group can, it's the massive advantage that voice communication gives to swf groups that makes use of what they bring WAY more impactful than what solos bring. Any killer aura reveal a single swf group members brings reveals the killer's location for the entire group. That doesn't happen for solo players. An insta heal can be used as soon as another survivor goes down with easy for an swf group. It requires a hell of a lot more effort for a solo player. Kindred is almost useless for SWF groups but crazy useful for solo players.
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So your only good point is to stop communication between SWF which the Devs already said they aren’t ever going to do. So..?
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It's over.
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You can’t prevent a team for leveling up fast because they are playing with their friends. Or even prevent them from using an insta-heal because the game limits them to 1 since they are SWF. Imagine wanting to use an instaheal or a toolbox but you can’t because your friend is bringing one.
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Imagine not being able to use omega blinks. Imagine not being able to use 5 chain blinks. It's called balance. Balance is far more important than what people want. I'm sure survivors want the old sabatoged hooks don't respawn, but that's not balance. I'm sure killers want the ability to put beartraps right under a hook so the rescuer can't rescue without disarming it first, but that's not balance.
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Theyd better do something to the objective at least.... this is arguably the worst case scenario..... taking the strongest power away from the killers and not even a mention of the objective that has been boring AF and easy for years!
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If they kill the Nurse they'll kill this game... Period. It's crazy how crying survivors get ######### done while killers have been pissed about gen rush and looping since inception and nothing done.
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It doesn't matter if certain SWF players are incompetent, unskilled, or "just having fun." Just like it doesn't matter if certain Nurse players are incompetent, unskilled, or "just having fun." The game still needs to be balanced around competent and skilled players who aren't goofing around and just handing their opponents easy wins. If one side is focused on the game and determined to win, and the other side is simply fooling around, then it's obvious who should win. So balance the game with that in mind.
It doesn't matter how rare good SWF groups are to play against, just like it doesn't matter how rare great Nurses are (especially on consoles.) The game still needs to be balanced at the top, so that the most skilled players playing against each other, with the strongest tools they have, have a 50/50 chance of winning. Once they determine the ultimate skill cap, then they can proceed to balance from top-down.
Buffing and nerfing killers is meaningless until they balance solo survivors and SWF to be on the same level. It's way past time Behaviour addressed this seriously, instead of continuing to deflect the problem, fully knowing that it affects the overall balancing problems in DBD. Hopefully they will be discussing their plans on SWF balance in a Developer Update in the near future.
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Yeah they nerf nurse lets nerf keys medkits and toolboxes
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I have never really thought to compare SWF groups with Nurse.
To me comparing both means that there is no other killer who can go against a SWF group, which simply isn't true.
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I bet this is gonna get ignored by anyone defending "swf". Have an upvote!
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This.
Cause as u said, "a SWF can easily be bad or even mess up and lose", even a nurse player can easily be bad or mess up.
Yesterday i had a match against a 3-blink-ruin-ebony-nurse. Was she good? Not really. Even with the ebony, 4 gens got done. Did i ran her for 2 gens (Groaning Storehouse), yes. And i had a Rank 18 and a Rank 12 in my team, so not really the most experienced players.
Any perk that a SWF can bring, so can a random solo team. CAN. There´s a chance, someone in a solo has BT. Dont know how u guys r playin SWF, when we play, the perks of all players are adjusted, i enjoy looping more, so i run DS, another one runs Proove Thyself, cause he´s the gen junkie, same with BT and We´ll make it. For me, i ´m running another build when playing solo as when i´m in a team.
But, whe have something i´d call "Hive Mind". We instantly know the killer, we know how much totems are made or left, and where they could be. We know when to do gens, cause someone´s looping the killer (of course in an area, where no one´s doing a gen), we know when to unhook, when the last genny get´s done, there are already players at the doors. And, we know the perks of the killer. Touch a dull totem at the start, Thrill pops, touch a gen, Ruin pops, after a chase SF activates, here we go, everyone know the build, even if he wasnt chased or touched a totem. No need to search for other dull totems, cause NOED is not possible to run.
So, we ran - without equipping this perks, empathy, kindred, aftercare, Open-Handed, and so on. And perks like Dark Sense or other perks regarding the killers aura r pretty useless, cause we know, where the killer is, no need for this aura reading perks.
Of course, a SWF-team can be playing bad. Same like Nurses. So, do we balance for the average player, where nurses and SWF-teams can suck, or are we going to balance for the god-tier-players? Balancing a Nurse regarding Zubat, Tru3 or the rest of them means balancing survivors around Pug, Noob and so on.
The only 5-blink-nurses i´ve seen are absolutly trash, and after 2.1k hours i´ve just seen 3 of them. 2 ran also NOED, so yeah, i guess, the 5-blink-nurse isn´t the big problem of the game. Just get rid of those stupid 2+ blink addons.
Range addons are insane strong, make them rare and ultra-rare, and balancing is done.
And, btw, regarding the CoD-kids: it´s team vs team, equal number of players, where both sides can give infos. Maybe i didnt got it, but from whom u get your infos about survivors. Just from yourself, no second killer is in the game. U have to chase everyone to know if he has DH, BL or SB. No on says me, where they are, which perks they are running and so on.
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Or we could buff solo survivors to swf level, and then buff killers accordingly. This used to be a super popular idea I don’t know why it stopped getting suggested.
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They're not ever restricting/handicapping SWF, if this is a dealbreaker for you then you might as well just quit the game right now to save yourself the trouble. Closing the gap and buffing killers that need it is clearly the direction the devs want to go.
No one even knows what exactly they are going to do to the Nurse yet. Sure it can be assumed that range extenders and extra blink add-ons might stop stacking or be reworked into something entirely different, but she also has so many weird and underused add-ons that will probably straight up BENEFIT from getting reworked. How often do you really see her purple add-ons used outside of one-blink meme/practice builds?
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this is too complicated
reduce 5% gen speed per squad is fine for me
4man=15%
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A swf has the advantage of getting more information than solo players which is an advantage. But if the survivors aren't that good then it doesn't make a difference. I personally don't like any of the suggestions you brought forward because I believe it is nearly impossible to nerf swf.
My suggestion is 2 fold. Buff solo survivor so they can give information to their teammates. Also buff the aspects of killers that swf exploit such as totems.
But if the swf is full of 4 good players then it's on the killer to out perform them. A good 4 man swf is very difficult because they can all loop well and are smart enough not to 3 gen themselves or . They can't nerf an swf team so some of the players are now potatoes.
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First, fix the maps, ironworks of infinite, the window at rancid aso.
Then close the gap between solo and swf.
After this, adjust killers, buff or nerf, to balance the game.
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I'm okay with these two. The rest just seems trivial imo.
On top of those two, can we make it so that the lowest rank in the group is the one you're facing. So if you have a rank 15, 13, and 2, you're facing a rank 2. The rank 2 shouldn't be getting an easier game and it may help with lower ranks being boosted up to the higher ranks.
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They will add rules. 100%.
Just wait a little bit. Im pretty sure their gonna be kind of "roles" in the future, your item selection suggestion excellent. Its not only for balance, but for diversity.
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How are those two suggestions punishing? Have you read what I said?
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Changing SWF is, by nature, much harder than changing the Nurse. One is changing a single killer, the other is revamping how half of the game works.
I do think both need changes though. For now, they can't do everything at once, and I'm happy they're tackling the Nurse first since she's so highly picked at high ranks and an efficient 4-man squad is so rare.
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I'm ok with them balancing the nurse, but I heavily disagree that they should take care of the nurse before they take care of swf. Unlike the nurse, swf requires no skill, only effort to be oppressive. And their reasoning for tackling the nurse was the longstanding knowledge of imbalance and player feedback. But there's definitely been way more feedback about swf groups than the nurse, and knowledge of swf groups being problematic has existed before they were even added to the game acknowledged by BHVR themselves even though they've since deleted the evidence. The fact that they're doing the nurse before swf is ridiculous in my opinion. I honestly don't believe balancing swf to be that difficult unless you're seriously uncreative.
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Firstly, saying SWF doesn't require skill is... questionable.
All players need to play well to form the rare, nightmare scenario 4-man tryhard squad people complain about so much but only encounter once every 100 games.
Secondly, as I said, they probably can't deal with SWF first. People suggest solutions here everyday, but they're all either bad or impossible to apply without making the game objectively worse.
People rage about stuff in this game too much without having the least amount of game design knowledge to figure out how to solve anything.
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Your suggestions are stupid. Without swf this game is dead.
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Literally none of the suggestions involve getting rid of SWF, so I can only assume you didn't read them.
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Remove SWF from the game.
There is no single bonus playing vs SWF as killer but survivals get free perks...
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If you are suggesting punishing people for playing together then you might as well remove swf because nobody is gonna play it.
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You punish the Nurse because she literally breaks the game.
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Like they "slightly" nerfed legion? and will probably nerf thier addons further?
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I don’t remember them saying they were going to “slightly” nerf legion.
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@Dehitay I like your post, somehow I cannot quote it directly.
I think the issue is survivors are not ready to compromise, it is all looping, looping, looping, bullying.
They won the war, the devs bowed, it's game over :(
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LOL ... punishing players for playing an multiplayer game together. Just how biased are you?
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I hate both Nurse and 4 man Cheat With Friends so I'm kinda surprised they are not nerfing both at the same time.
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I don't think this is a question of bias. It's SWF 3 and 4 man gain a crazy massive buff in the game with zero consequence. SWF has 3 core benefits that are so substantial that they practically break the game. Firstly, They have innate have access to perks extra perks such as Bond,Kindred,Alert and most aura reading perks without equipping them. Secondly, time optimization allows them to complete generators,totems,open chests, exit gate far beyond solo survivors consistently. Lastly, They are able to coordinate perks, items, offering(Map choice) and use these functions more efficiently(e.g Object of Obsession). In my opinion, If a team is either 3 stack or 4 man, survivors who are in the stack should receive flat action speed penalty(15%) for each member in survivor groups. Solo and Duo should not be affected as they aren't as game-breaking most of the time. In any case, talking about SWF is like opening can of worms, taboo topic for how overpowered it is.
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As people have said multiple times, the only healthy way of dealing with SWF is giving solo survivors more info to work with and buffing killers accordingly.
Even though it's been a painfully slow process, the devs already said they're looking on ways to do that.
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So I assume both of you are upset that they're "punishing" the nurse for building up skill. Well, either that or the much more likely possibility that you're massively biased hypocrites.
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The one thing hasnt anything to do with the other thing. You cant punish people for playing together in an multiplayer game, otherwise the game will die insantly, cause at least half the playerbase will not play anymore. pls just try to think about what you wrote. you should understands thats its false logic at all.
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So every time you nerf something that's remotely hard to play in any game you're punishing people for getting skilled?
That's a very pretty false equivalence you're defending there.
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The real accomplishment would be if YOU tried to think about it. The fact that you consider balancing swf to be "punishing working together" and yet say that balancing the nurse isn't "punishing high skill" is a prime example of bias and hypocrisy. It's not punishing working together; it's just making it fair. What it actually punishes is oppressive gameplay which seems to be your definition of "working together".
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SWF is really revealing problems with the game when survivors play optimally.
It's not problem of the players but with the fact that game can be that unbalanced.
I'd welcome changes that will extend the game for both sides to have fun instead of just nerfing people wanting to play together.
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Nobody is “punishing” Nurse, it’s just about time she receives her nerfs, she doesn’t belong in current dbd. And they are not even nerfing her, they are just nerfing her addons.
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