What is going on with the Nurse
Comments
-
I was writing a long and convoluted reply but your posts are generally so trolly here I'm not gonna bother
4 -
The number of people who didn't actually read the OP and just keep parroting the points covered in it is quite telling.
3 -
I mean, what OP is implying is pretty false. Things definitely don't need to change in any game to be perceived as too powerful over time. That's just not the nature of games like DBD.
3 -
I think you dont reply because you can´t give a proper answer... It doesnt make a difference who asks a certain question.
Why is the Nurse judged on her highest potential and survivors are not?
Do you want a fair game overall? Balance around competition...
Do you want a game that is artifically balanced for casual players? Balance around solo survivors...
If the Nurse gets nerfed you can basically just play the games intro in every trial because the game becomes like a interactive M1 movie...
5 -
It doesnt matter if everybody or nobody plays SWF. You balance games around the highest possible potential, everything else ends up in an artificial mess like DbD is right now.
2 -
Here's the thing.
I've said this before. Nurse won't be butchered. There is NO WAY her kit is anything below "absurdly strong" unless if they rework her from the ground up.
The only meaningful changes will be to her add-ons, which are overkill, even against SWF, if the Nurse player is at the highest level. A small nerf to her base kit, which probably won't happen anyway (they said "slight changes", it will probably be something to accomodate the new add-ons) will NOT put her below SWF in balance most likely. Thus balancing Nurse around the highest level, even the current highest level for survivors, is probably either power neutral or slight nerf-worthy.
Then you can just buff the other killers and buff solo survivor.
Secondarily, there is no way to nerf SWF meaningfully without 1. altering core mechanics, which will mess up EVERYTHING ELSE or 2. make SWF-specific changes, which will also mess up everything else because their code is disgustingly intertwined.
3 -
We don´t know the changes yet, all we know is that the devs tend to not play their own game.
You arguments are based around "IF´s"...
How many Nurse players can actually perform that well to compete against 4 SWF´s with voice comm, meta perks and toolboxes? Lets say 5% of all Nurse players which would be like 1% of the playerbase? And i said compete...
Yep, nerfs are definitely needed here.
I am not asking for SWF nerfs, because there is the Nurse as she is right now to deal with that.
Some people are playing solo in a rank 20 team and get butchered by a decent nurse and immediately screaming for nerfs, thats the problem.
4 -
Dude, YOUR arguments are based around IFs.
I'm only going based on what was said.
We had 2 different sources saying 1. changes to the add-ons and 2. changes to the add-ons and SLIGHT base kit ADJUSTMENTS.
Paranoid people are just assuming she's going to get butchered, while I'm going on facts and on what the devs have said.
No, BHVR's "history" isn't an argument here. They haven't issued a MEANINGFUL nerf for free for quite some time now, and the Freddy rework, unlike what many people say, was a pretty significant net buff.
Just chill and wait ffs. If they end up wanting to nerf her too hard, I'll be right there protesting with yall.
6 -
I mean bro it's not hard. I rarely play nurse and yesterday survivors were literally trying to loop me. Yes, loop me. I 4K them all and I was using a pad. Nurse stats are inflated at high rank because of potatoes.
3 -
in defense of 5: survivors might have gotten worse but so did killers, ruin and bbq made their job so much easier i feel most cant play without them
not to mention all the nerfs to survivors when there were a lot of killers who didnt really have a big problem most the time
3 -
You’re delusional @DrDeepwound here are the actual stats from a dev stream. Just because you say something, doesn’t make it factual.
6 -
You may want to read the disclaimer above those stats and the devs have posted on this board that they are not accurate. Innaccurate stats according to the devs after release ;)
"These are very general statistics, so use caution before drawing any conclusions."
PS: your stat pic shows 50% are solo, so whats left? 50% are SWF, so as I said, devs have shown stats that show 50-70% are SWF. Devs released stats before that, that showed 70% SWF,.... Far from your "not as common as you think" when at LEAST half your games are SWF.
Post edited by DrDeepwound on1 -
You realized you got trapped in a corner and no way to explain yourself out of it
1 -
Care to elaborate which nerfs exactly?
Care to elaborate how Ruin made a Killer's job easier over time if it's been the meta Perk for so long. Care to elaborate the same for BBQ, a Perk that by now has so many counters, most Killers only use it for the BP bonus anymore?
Otherwise your post is not a defence of point #5, but rather full of empty claims.
0 -
This is the worst argument I've seen so far/\ -------> prettymuch screw what happened to the character in the past and how the players reacted and felt about said character that's going to be worked on yet again today....
3 -
At your logic then let's dig up the depip squad then because the same should be done for survivors.... let's really analyze the highest level of play for survivors....
6 -
The nerf complaints started shortly after rank reset, I'm positive it was survivors that don't know how to play against nurse getting destroyed by nurses much more experienced at the game than them. The survivors then went on to pitch a fit and that's how all this got started.
1 -
I wrote a reply on your question for someone I take more seriously
0 -
Nurse addons're not OP, this guy is ofc survior main, he can prove this.
They're just strong, not op lul
0 -
So what?
Survivors like dismissing the Depip Squad when it comes to SWF, why should that be different in case of the Nurse?
Double standards much, hmm?
6 -
I'm not implying anything and my experience thus far is that people say I am implying something when they want to treat me like I said something which I didn't. This remains the case here.
0 -
So since some people are full of ######### everyone else is allowed to be?
2 -
It should be obvious that she is broken in skilled hands, since it requires a lot of skill to reach her full potential. Thats the difference between a very good leatherface and a very good Nurse... The Killing Potential of the Nurse is 10 times bigger then the Killing potential of a regular Killer.
3 -
"I didnt like the answer he gave me! He must be wrong!"
So mature
7 -
I'm not going to express disagreement with this. What I am going to do is explore it and hopefully you will realise how I am looking at things. I can spot five topics within just your post here:
- Your apparent understanding of point #5 in my opening-post
- Killers also becoming worse
- Ruin and BBQ creating 'ease'
- Survivor nerfs
- Killers response
Addressing each of these separately would probably make a mess as bad as my opening-post but multiplied by five. They can be combined though into a discussion about just one topic which they are all caused by and in turn fuel: the hidden argument between goals and standards.
Seeking 'balance' is vague and because it's vague, it's assumed that balance is difficult. It's like happiness: if you don't set in stone what the word is supposed to mean, of course it is going to be vague and practically unobtainable. Meanwhile, there are people who are happy because they choose to be and get on with it; they're not fretting about when the next happy-causing thing is going to come along or how they can create it with the specific goal in mind of making themselves or someone else happier.
Balance is supposed to be something more concrete though: you can measure balance, it's this 'data-driven design' that is so faddish right now. The devs once defined their balance design-goal as '2 kills and 2 escapes', which people then assumed they meant on average. The first problem is that it was a vague statement even if you assume it meant an average: there are three basic ways of determining averages, which can give both the same or different end-numbers. The devs never clarified and of course wouldn't want to because aiming for any kind of average result across all games is also pointless, in a game where the match-making is supposed to work towards that result in the first place.
It says more about how well-designed the ranking and match-making system is than it does about the state of the game itself. If you make decisions based purely on the intended goals, this is a very poor way of determining balance. A well-functioning match-maker will strive to create 2:2 kills-to-escapes on any average by matching people to that end, no matter how skewed the actual game was.
Having a set of standards is another way of making decisions. Sometimes those decisions will agree with goal-based decisions, but sometimes they won't. It means if a feature has a certain purpose and it fulfils that purpose, it doesn't get changed simply for doing it's job unless it conflicts with a longer-serving and more-important standard. In which case; why were existing standards ignored?
Standards keep things consistent and prevent arbitrary conflicts. Like say a Nurse addon that improves chain-blink but removes 1 blink charge, serving an existing standard that difficult things should be more rewarding and vice-versa; only to then get ruined by a radical new idea of reducing default blink charges to 2, for which the justifying standard isn't even explained, only the vague goal of 'she was too strong, she needed balancing'.
Goals tend to be a single focus, meaning when there are unintended consequences questions can get asked like 'was that part of the plan?'. To avoid embarassment, goal-setters then make the goals really vague, so they make it easier to dodge awkward questions. This does not however mean the problems they're dealing with are that complicated(and even if they are complicated, that's no reason to make them worse): they are so because they made them that way. When measure by standards, goal-based decisions are often riddled with double-standards: different rules for different things, because the stanards are subservient to the desired goals.
It's even worse when the goals are vague. We're left having to speculate the purpose of things like Ruin and BBQ, based on what they do. The devs don't really talk about stuff beyond what the perks do. We guess BBQ is meant to give the killer an incentive to leave a hook and try to get everyone as early as possible rather than focusing on one person. We guess Ruin is meant to give survivors an optional secondary-objective, which is a frequent request even now, as if Ruin doesn't count.
When a standard is set, we don't need information that's specific about the goal of every individual feature in the game in order to understand it: we can apply the standards and discuss whether a feature is consistent with them. If no player should be affected by a detrimental status-effect permanently for the whole match, unless it's caused by a core feature or applied by themselves(like No Mither), we can objectively decide when a feature breaks that rule.
If the devs have standards in their design though, they aren't sharing them. Players are left arguing with each other then with the pattern being familiar: one side is accused of having biased goals, the other is accused of having no standards.
I am a killer-partisan because I think goals should be subservient to standards.
4 -
Compare her full potential to the fullest potential to survivors and that's one hell of a match. Now for poor ole leatherface against the best survivors he has to go to the cow loop, bend over, and take a spanking, literally
1 -
im sorry but im not reading that much
1 -
the nerfs to pallets windows, some perks, etc
the ruin and bbq things are basically that before ruin existed killers could still get 2-4k even with the pallet vacuum,old ds,etc ,and i think that gens took originally 60s so how come killers have so many problems now with ruin existing and all that? my guess is that they got too used to relying on that to apply pressure and now they just cant
then for bbq , honestly dont let others fool you the auras are really powerful mainly because it takes no time to find another person and down them eventually and for the last 2 ppl it guarantees a 4k if you hook 1 unless they counter it, which for some reason nobody does
and even then you see them complain about some stuff like OoO (which isnt op, its free wallhacks for the killer on you too imo) and about perks with the only purpose to be used against scummy tactics like bt or new ds
2 -
That's not the definition of broken. Broken means broken regardless of skill, not "in good hands".
1 -
Pallet vacuum had to go and even windows got slight nerfs, there are still semi-infinites around.
And don't even start with Perks: Killer Perks got nerfed more often and gutted more often.
Original gens took 70 seconds, but gen rush and looping wasn't a thing back then. That is what has changed, not Killers getting worse.
1 -
makes sense, tho i still think they really rely on ruin
0 -
I appreciate you taking the time to write this. Many people are quick to throw the book at Nurse.
Here are my brief opinions on Nurse:
- Nurse does need her add ons reworked. There are killers in red ranks who take full advantage of using Nurse's overpowered add ons. Playing against an experienced Nurse with three or four blinks + range is a nightmare. You can't win if the Nurse starts slugging. Also, the baby Nurses will just have to get used to playing her without the powerful add ons. Many of us veterans persevered while learning Nurse (without add ons), they can too.
- Base kit Nurse is fine imo as of now. Unless I see strong evidence that shows experienced Nurses can always beat experienced survivors, then I will maintain my position. Also, I don't buy into the argument that Nurse shouldn't be touched because she has a low kill rate in low ranks. If a killer has the potential to be overpowered, then that killer needs to be adjusted.
5 -
Still not convinced that breaking the mechanics at base as a power is balanced, or healthy for the game's balance in general.
But hey, at least most can agree her addons need serious changes.
2 -
Small victories mate.
0 -
Baby steps 3 years down the line :)
0 -
Thanks for the reply, but it's left me with the same unanswered questions.
- Why is this? What has changed about the addons or anything that could affect them in a relevant way that has made it so in 2017 addons were a liability and now they are over-powered? There has been a reversal: complaints used to be focused on the Nurse being too-strong, period. The addons have only become a focus more recently and to my eyes this looks to not be based on any verifiable facts but on an opportunity being seized and a band-wagon becoming popular. The most common reason I seem to be seeing for why addons are a problem now is 'lots of people think so', which as a self-reinforcing belief; of course lots of people think so if the main factor in their belief is that it is widely-believed.
- Funny thing and people desperate to invent reasons to disagree with me miss this: I do not think the basekit Nurse is fine. I am opposed to changes on the grounds that Nurse is being subjected to standards which survivors resist at every turn ever being applied to them: the maximum known potential. I believe that any feature is as strong as it could potentially be, not as strong as it de facto gets used. De facto Saitama/One-Punch Man is as strong as the last strongest thing he punched, but in actuality he is as strong as the writer decides, knowingly or not. Once this double-standard is gone, I'll then be arguing that the Nurse does not need changing in accordance with the game as-is though, but in accordance with how the game is going to change without survivors being measured by a wholly more generous standard to them than killers are given.
3 -
You dont always need to buff or nerf smothing to make it powerful. The meta changes and what wasnt good before can be the strongest thing ever without even being touched.
1 -
They went against a 5 blink nurse on the game map and depipped her... her winning is just clear proof that shes here to go against teams like the depip squad.... oh wait thisatch I'm speaking of particularly they did perkless...... 5 blink, game map, rank 1, any mediocre nurse even borderline bad nurse should 4ked if nurse is as broken as people think....
Depip squad lost some V nurse and also won some V nurse... that's an indication of balance when against the cream of the crop.
1 -
This is true, but can not account for why in 2017 that addons were a liability for the Nurse. Then only about nine months ago they became the key to sub-par Nurse's being decent and decent Nurse's being experts and experts still being experts but now it was easier.
The addons were not changed when Nurse was initially nerfed in 2016. They haven't been changed at all since she was released. If I were to accept that it's entirely possible that it would take two years for a meta to develop based on addons, that still leaves me with the question of what that meta actually is and why it took so long?
What is the meta exactly? Were Nurse players just simply not trying to use addons to compensate for missing on the first blinks? Well, they were. That was the first thing everyone was trying after the Nurse had her default charges reduced from 3 to 2; people thought that using addons to get the blink back to 3 would mean they could play her exactly as before. That wasn't the case though: all extra-blink addons except for Fragile Wheeze interfere with muscle-memory as they alter the range of blinks by differing amounts. Her move-speed had also been changed, so she could no longer keep-up with a sprinting survivor without blinking; which make accurate blinks more important than distance now.
It's not the meta that has changed. It's survivors becoming more reliant on mechanics which the Nurse is explicitly designed to counter, in order to get survivors to be less-dependent on them. Survivors didn't adapt though, even after Nurse was nerfed. Then last year in January, the devs made changes in patch 1.9 which nominally were supposed to help survivors predict them by making the visual telegraphs more obvious. In doing so, they made the audio telegraphs less reliable. In attempting to help survivors with their adaptation problem, the devs made it worse; the survivors then didn't adapt to those changes and may not actually be able to.
If you have experience, being able to anticipate is better than being able to react. Audio telegraphs for blinking are better because they allow a good survivor to anticipate. Visual telegraphs only help them to react, but the Nurse can react to with additional blinks. If addons are really a problem now, then the solution is to revert the 1.9 changes to blinks. It should not be used as the basis for any changes to Nurse that are being loudly called for, on flimsy grounds.
3 -
This /\ the closest thing imo we've gotten to broken is old legion (on the killer side)
0 -
The game has changed, not just the Nurse. What might not have been OP before can be OP now with map changes, no pallet vacuums, no infinite loops, nerfed BNP, nerfed DS, etc. So it doesn’t matter that her add ons haven’t changed if everything changed around her. A lion in a zoo is fine and you feel safe near it, but if the zoo is suddenly changed into a playground, now the same thing that was fine before (the lion) is now life threatening because of the environment and circumstances.
Also I’m not understanding the people saying something is only OP if a new player can pick it up and instantly noob stomp? Something being easy to learn doesn’t mean it’s OP (Wraith is easy to learn and can noob stomp), and something being OP doesn’t have to be easy to learn. You can’t balance the game around rank 20s. The fact is a new Nurse CAN noob stomp at brown ranks after playing her a little bit and getting a feel for her blinks, and a really good Nurse can stomp everyone nearly every time at any rank. As someone else said, her OP add ons aren’t gonna help someone new who sucks but they will make decent and good players way better. I think she’s fine without add ons but her add ons need a rework and if you don’t think they do, you might be incredibly biased. I’d be considered a “killer main” (I play both but more killer) and even I, along with many other “killer mains,” think her add ons need adjusting.
Post edited by scorpio on3 -
Also the fact that people are now complaining more about her add ons specifically than the Nurse as a whole in general shows exactly the opposite of what you said, that survivors HAVE adapted and gotten better, because more of them think the Nurse would be okay to go against without her OP add ons. Before they just wanted her nerfed into the ground or gone but it seems more and more people are on board with just her add ons being adjusted. This means they feel confident that they can counter her base kit whereas before just the sound of her blinking at the start of the game was enough to cause 4 insta DCs.
1 -
Its in a weird situation. As of now, neither the stealth nor the aggressive playstyle can “counter the nurse” if they revert the change back there might be more chances in the stealth playstyle BUT it is still forcing people to bring certain perks only for her.
0 -
How is Nurse with addons any different than a Huntress with instant throw or extra hatchets? Iridescent heads? Spirit with addons? Clown with pinky finger? What about SWF that has a key? Insta-heals?
Nothing.
0 -
Your post is way too long and I’m still not entirely sure what your point is.
1 -
Are you kidding? The difference is Nurse’s power completely ignores game mechanics. Looping has become the base survivor defense. Nurse completely ignores loops, pallets, windows and walls. She has the mobility if Billy but without the loopability (I’m making that a word.)
No other killer can avoid being looped to that extent. If the devs are going to keep her power (blink) as is (and I think they should because if done well with properly balanced add ons she could be really fun and interesting to verse) then her add ons need to be very carefully balanced or else she becomes too powerful in the hands of a good player.
Everything you mentioned above has counters and all those killers can be looped, even Spirit can be mind gamed/looped/countered in various ways. Playing against a good Nurse with OP add ons just isn’t fun and doesn’t feel fair as a survivor.
3 -
You definitely don't play killer. Even with the ridiculous condition the game was in before, killers could still win from time to time because survivors weren't as good then as they are now, period. Survivors have gotten better and better over time at looping, which is why the game has needed to nerf survivors in various ways to bring the game back into balance. I disagree with OP completely that survivors have gotten worse and I disagree with you completely that killers have. Survivors are more optimal on gens and at looping than they ever were before and without the changes you've mentioned, killers would never get a kill unless they were playing against actual potatoes.
1 -
So survivors should not have to bring certain perks to counter a killer, but killers have to bring certain perks to counter certain mechanics? Perks like Ruin is pretty much a mandatory thing in high ranks. Perks like Enduring, or Spirit Fury are also perks you will see in ALOT of loadouts.
Survivors can ######### around with their perks (or bring no perks at all), but killers cant do the same. Survivors have alot more flexibility in their perkchoices, than killers (unless its Spirit, or Nurse).
1 -
I think Spirit has much more difficult counterplay than nurse. Nurse requires LOS and insane prediction whereas Spirit simply needs good ears. She can fake windows because she has no vault animation, she is unbelievably strong in so many situations. I would much prefer facing a nurse than spirit.
You can't say with a straight face that Nurse with addons is any different than anything else with addons.
1 -
Yes I definitely can and I did, because her power entirely ignores the main game mechanics survivors use to survive. That is what makes her stronger than other killers, and that is why some of her add ons make her OP. I have already said I think base kit Nurse is fine but I don't think Nurse with more than 2 (maybe 3 tops) blinks or super long range blink add ons is necessary nor balanced. Spirit is difficult to play against, but she still has to vault windows, go through doors, and break or go around pallets like any other killer, except the Nurse. Mechanically, Nurse is different from every other killer, and therefore needs to be balanced more carefully and I think adjusting her add ons is the easiest way to balance her without nerfing her too hard. Base kit Nurse is still super strong so even with some nerfs to her add ons she won't become a low tier killer by any stretch of the imagination, and she may actually become more fun to verse.
3
